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Leperflesh posted:Framboise is the expert in the Magic thread on understanding the nuances and the situation. I don't know anything about the guy who died. Framboise asked to issue a longer probe and I said sure, and let him write the reason. Then I pinged admins to approve the probation. Yes, that meant it took a little longer to go through: so what? It's not like Toshimo was still in the thread doing something that had to be immediately stopped. The issue, again, is that the the probe reason was “I agree with what you said, but you were too mean with that last line.” when the entire post was terrible grudge posting. And then calling people not liking that probe reason ‘histrionic’ is just icing on the terrible cake. EDIT: Nobody is actually mad that you had an admin approve it, but it just seems kind of silly to bother with when you were right there and could have approved it yourself. What people are mad about is that the post from an extremely bad and toxic poster skated with a day and a "You're right but just a bit too mean." probe reason. Kchama fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 00:23
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EDIT: Nevermind, shouldn’t involve myself
Pablo Nergigante fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 00:44
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Leperflesh posted:it sounds like you think Framboise agreed with dancing on the grave of a dead guy, and he didn't and I don't either. It also sounded like you thought that post should have gotten a longer probation: framboise suggested a 24 and I thought that was reasonable. These are judgement calls. If you (TG mods and IKs) want to give someone a probation for, as you said, a grotesque post then the probe reason can just be "grotesque post, dancing on the grave of a guy who just died". If you don't want people to think you actually agree with the person being probated then you probably shouldn't type two mealy-mouthed paragraphs that say, "I don't disagree". Twice. That might give people the impression that you don't disagree, which is what all the people who posted here about it have told you. Whatever you thought that message conveyed, it did the opposite. Maybe if the probation was something meaningful then people would have thought perhaps they were misinterpreting the message. But it was a day. As you said, "pretty minor". So the overall picture is not a good one
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Sep 11, 2023 00:46
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What is even the point of this thread? Every time feedback is given on moderation it seems the response is just "sorry we're not going to do anything different because that would involve actual effort."
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Sep 11, 2023 00:50
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Ego Trip posted:Toshimo is many things. Loud. Aggressive. Incapable of Not. Probably ranting right now. He hates chinese people and defended wotc using the pinkertons so maybe you don't understand who you're defending.
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Sep 11, 2023 00:51
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Kai Tave posted:What is even the point of this thread? Every time feedback is given on moderation it seems the response is just "sorry we're not going to do anything different because that would involve actual effort."
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Sep 11, 2023 00:56
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Kai Tave posted:What is even the point of this thread? Every time feedback is given on moderation it seems the response is just "sorry we're not going to do anything different because that would involve actual effort." Actually the response is Framboise posted:Take the boneheaded histrionics and stuff it So ironically I agree with what you said but not the tone
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Sep 11, 2023 00:59
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Kai Tave posted:What is even the point of this thread? Every time feedback is given on moderation it seems the response is just "sorry we're not going to do anything different because that would involve actual effort." It's cargo-cult modding. They heard you're supposed to have a feedback thread so they got one. Problem solved.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:06
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Kild posted:He hates chinese people and defended wotc using the pinkertons so maybe you don't understand who you're defending. I think if we're being fair, Toshimo did not defend the Pinkertons in the case of "some random youtube guy gets the Pinkertons sicced on him for daring to show off some Magic cards early," what he instead did was repeatedly post to the effect of "lmao if you stupid loving idiots think this matters in any way, this is just how things work in America" which is pretty fuckin funny considering that "how things work in America" was apparently insufficient for him to not drop by and let everyone know he was glad that some person had died. I don't post in the Magic thread or even play Magic so I can't speak to Toshimo's conduct there except apparently the first, idk, half dozen probations on their rap sheet are all some variation of "man your posting in the magic thread is awful" which suggests to me, as I have mentioned before, that repeated slaps on the wrist don't actually seem all that effective in achieving any sort of result, I simply recognize them from other threads where occasionally they feel compelled to drop by in order to lecture everyone else on why they're all wrong and also stupid, so I don't really have a hard time believing their behavior in the magic thread might follow a similar pattern. Tarnop posted:Actually the response is Also drat but this response from Framboise sucks poo poo and really raises further questions as to why this thread even exists.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:11
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Kai Tave posted:Also drat but this response from Framboise sucks poo poo and really raises further questions as to why this thread even exists. Yeah the fact that they made that post and didn't realize how loving awful it made them look is really amazing.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:19
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So to give my perspective as a mod who was on the sidelines for this: I saw the reports, agreed that Toshimo was being unacceptably aggro, and when LF said that he and Framboise were talking about giving Toshimo a harsher probe than the IK can auto-issue, I agreed that that was a good idea. There wasn't much discussion of the actual content, and I didn't have the context, but I was expecting a probe reason that was clearer about "stop making GBS threads up this thread" and less "well, gosh, you're not wrong, but..." I think Framboise was acting in good faith, and in the past I've generally deferred moderation on the M:tG thread because I don't read it or follow modern Magic, but it sounds like it's reached a point where it needs moderation for tone more than it needs subject-matter mastery, and I'm prepared to start moderating it more seriously. This is my big struggle as a TG mod, honestly: how vigorously to moderate threads where I don't know the particular topic? I've been hesitant, but I'm thinking that may need to change, because I hate being blindsided by these crappy situations where I just figured "I'll screw things up if I mod hard, better to let the community self-police."
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Sep 11, 2023 01:26
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Kild posted:He hates chinese people and defended wotc using the pinkertons so maybe you don't understand who you're defending. Again. That is a misreading of what he said either intentional or otherwise.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:28
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Antivehicular posted:I think Framboise was acting in good faith, and in the past I've generally deferred moderation on the M:tG thread because I don't read it or follow modern Magic, but it sounds like it's reached a point where it needs moderation for tone more than it needs subject-matter mastery, and I'm prepared to start moderating it more seriously. This is my big struggle as a TG mod, honestly: how vigorously to moderate threads where I don't know the particular topic? I've been hesitant, but I'm thinking that may need to change, because I hate being blindsided by these crappy situations where I just figured "I'll screw things up if I mod hard, better to let the community self-police." In all seriousness, don't rap sheets exist for exactly this sort of thing? So that you don't necessarily have to be an expert in every huge thread here (because yeah there are a lot of them) but can instead click on the list of probations someone has, see the first six or seven are all in the same thread for the same sort of thing, and go "oh okay, this is what this person's malfunction is"? Because that seems like it should be a much easier way to evaluate things than needing to familiarize yourself with Magic as a game and as it's discussed in SA tradgames.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:30
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Tarnop posted:Actually the response is You said I was "sucking his dick" about it when all I did was agree with the notion that people should be paid for the work they do but it wasn't a good time to bring that up, and that the "Good riddance" comment was hosed up and lovely. So yeah, sounds pretty overdramatic to me and you can, in fact, stuff it. I'm very clearly seeing that it was not the right way to handle the situation and get that, but it's almost as if you're trying to take what I said and twist it in the most uncharitable way possible and that's honestly pretty unfair. Kai Tave posted:What is even the point of this thread? Every time feedback is given on moderation it seems the response is just "sorry we're not going to do anything different because that would involve actual effort." Perhaps if feedback was more suggestion-oriented rather than unconstructive lashing out there may be more results. Case and point: HKR posted:no you should do this instead: Fajita Queen posted:Good, maybe do this repeatedly until it stops instead of letting the thread be a cesspool of toxic poo poo that loads of people on the forums can't stand to read or post in because of how horrible it's been. Then repeat this for the rest of Tradgames, because this forum is hugely undermoderated and some of the most awful, hostile, lovely people are the loudest. Nessus posted:As someone outside of the MTG ecosystem I agree. Escalating probes for the same poo poo is quite reasonable, but this comes off as 'you had your heart in the right place when you condemned the dead community man' and I don't think, generally, we need to encourage that poo poo; there is plenty of it in the world already. I'll be taking these to heart and will be issuing probes more frequently in the thread for hostile posting. I've been lax about it as I try to be as level-headed as possible when it comes to moderating but it's clearly not what is wanted or needed. And I'll be less cordial about it too. You're talking to the wrong person when it comes to bans though, because I've never understood why SA even allows people to have a long rap sheet and think that if you haven't learned after the first few, you never will and shouldn't be allowed to stick around, but apparently that's too mean. I don't have much of a say in that anyway. Kchama posted:Yeah the fact that they made that post and didn't realize how loving awful it made them look is really amazing. gently caress, I get it, okay? Kinda feel like that's been driven home well enough by now. I have been sufficiently rebuked for that now, I think. What do you want from me, self-flagellation? gently caress's sake, I'm sorry.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:33
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Splicer posted:I think people are asking why you involved admins instead of just putting through a 24 hour probe yourself. I can't approve a probation filed by an IK. Mods don't have any power in the queue. Kchama posted:The issue, again, is that the the probe reason was “I agree with what you said, but you were too mean with that last line.” I'm having a hard time understanding why it's not clear that Framboise agrees that it's bad to stan for Wizards of the Coast against the desire of workers to get paid? That is what Framboise agrees with, and had that criticism been posted a week ago or about someone who hadn't just died, it would not have drawn any sort of penalty. However, being glad that this person is dead, and tying the two together, sucks. That is the part that was in the last sentence of Toshimo's post. I really feel like this is not that unclear and that folks are looking to read the worst possible interpretation into a probation reason. I think Framboise' frustration on that count is justified. I do wish he hadn't come into this thread quite so hot. Kild posted:He hates chinese people and defended wotc using the pinkertons so maybe you don't understand who you're defending. If Toshimo's been saying racist things on discords that's something to report to the admins, please. Mods, including myself, can't do anything about offsite drama, and that's part of why bringing offsite drama into threads is prohibited. We also obviously can't color what we do with probations based on rumors told us about something that happened offsite. Even coming close to that has bitten me hard in the past.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:35
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aw frig aw dang it posted:It's cargo-cult modding. They heard you're supposed to have a feedback thread so they got one. Problem solved. Nonsense. If this was true, Debate & Discussion would have one more frequently than every second blue moon.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:42
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Framboise posted:You said I was "sucking his dick" about it when all I did was agree with the notion that people should be paid for the work they do but it wasn't a good time to bring that up, and that the "Good riddance" comment was hosed up and lovely. So yeah, sounds pretty overdramatic to me and you can, in fact, stuff it. You know what, fair enough. It was an unnecessarily aggro way to raise my complaint with the way the post was handled. I've felt like my feedback in TG has been dismissed or minimised in the past but you weren't involved in that and I shouldn't have brought that energy to this issue. I'm sorry
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Sep 11, 2023 01:51
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Framboise posted:gently caress, I get it, okay? Kinda feel like that's been driven home well enough by now. I have been sufficiently rebuked for that now, I think. What do you want from me, self-flagellation? As a very gentle tip, this kind of stuff makes your apology seem insincere, especially in response to some largely mild response. You hadn't even apologized before you just told people to 'stuff it'. They were out of line, but they weren't wrong. So no, no one is asking for self-flagellation. Leperflesh posted:I can't approve a probation filed by an IK. Mods don't have any power in the queue. Toshimo was literally just mad about the guy running the format in a way he didn't approve of, and used his death to poo poo on him some more. The fact that Framboise is cool with that and agreed with making GBS threads on someone over a petty grudge right after they died is what's so lovely. That was my point about "the post sucked even before it got to the last line". The dead dude's crime was "ran a league as a volunteer instead of as a paid worker", which as far as Capitalist Crimes is pretty low on the list, and spinning it as him being a "traitor to labor" is extremely stupid. Also couldn't you just file a probation directly? I do not believe you need a post to be reported before you can do anything to it. Antivehicular posted:So to give my perspective as a mod who was on the sidelines for this: I saw the reports, agreed that Toshimo was being unacceptably aggro, and when LF said that he and Framboise were talking about giving Toshimo a harsher probe than the IK can auto-issue, I agreed that that was a good idea. There wasn't much discussion of the actual content, and I didn't have the context, but I was expecting a probe reason that was clearer about "stop making GBS threads up this thread" and less "well, gosh, you're not wrong, but..." If you see a bad post being reported you can probably just hit it. You don't really need to understand the thread meta to understand that. You can look into the context if you want, but would it have changed a thing in this case? No. Kchama fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 01:52
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Okay, I get it. I came in hot because I came home to a bunch of posts lashing out at me for trying to do things in a way I felt right and just got more irritable when the lashing out kept piling on. Genuinely, sorry. Tarnop posted:You know what, fair enough. It was an unnecessarily aggro way to raise my complaint with the way the post was handled. I've felt like my feedback in TG has been dismissed or minimised in the past but you weren't involved in that and I shouldn't have brought that energy to this issue. I'm sorry Apology accepted. Sorry for snapping back. Please understand that I was asked to IK the thread and I agreed to do so on the condition that I'm not expected to be terminally online in the thread and will help out now and then, and wanted to do so in a minimally invasive way. After today, I'm questioning whether or not any of this is worth my time and mental bandwidth because I kind of feel like whatever my response to the situation was, it would have been met with some kind of backlash and that sucks a lot!
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Sep 11, 2023 02:04
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Framboise posted:Okay, I get it. I came in hot because I came home to a bunch of posts lashing out at me for trying to do things in a way I felt right and just got more irritable when the lashing out kept piling on. Everyone's wrong all the time, it's important to know when to recognize it and let go your anger. I say this as someone who is wrong all the drat time. I'm not going to say 'apology accepted' because I don't think it's my place, but I'm glad.
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Sep 11, 2023 02:10
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If you genuinely feel that people are upset at you solely to be upset with you, and not because of the specific reasons multiple posters have stated in this thread and SAD (agreeing with the grave-dancing poster, etc.), then yeah maybe being an IK isn't for you.
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Sep 11, 2023 02:11
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my suggestion was that toshimo should just be threadbanned from the mtg thread, but I was rebuked. this pussyfooting around a poster like toshimo has, demonstrably, not done anything to stop them being who they are. multiple people, most prominently pablo nergigante, have said they stopped reading the mtg thread because of crazy aggro posters like toshimo, and I would trade toshimo for pablo in a loving heartbeat toshimo has been probated over a dozen times for being the most aggro poster in SPECIFICALLY the magic the gathering thread for literally a decade. apparently he had been cooling off on it for a while until this monumentally terrible post, but Fucker quoted him a bunch showing it's a longstanding grudge toshimo had against the dude for making bad rulings, his claims of the guy being some anti-leftist or whatever is just the thinnest of veneers to hide his actual reason for celebrating his death, that he made rules judgements toshimo didn't like. it's loving pathetic to an insane degree and a single day probe is hilarious for that post. I don't even know the guy he hates so much, but that level of bloodlust towards a guy who just died of cancer because he made some rulings toshimo didn't like, that that didn't warrant at least a week especially with toshimo's rap sheet in that thread alone is wild to me. and framboise's probation reason was certainly not worded well if they didn't want people to infer they agreed with toshimo on it. can you edit probations? I'm pretty sure you can, maybe change it to the more succinct one someone posted upthread of just like "incredibly angry posting exulting in the cancer death of his
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Sep 11, 2023 02:40
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Leperflesh posted:I'm having a hard time understanding why it's not clear that Framboise agrees that it's bad to stan for Wizards of the Coast against the desire of workers to get paid? That is what Framboise agrees with, and had that criticism been posted a week ago or about someone who hadn't just died, it would not have drawn any sort of penalty. I think it's a matter of "Do we need to turn this into another front in the war against global capital?" A guy who helped mainstream Commander and make it the most popular and widely-played game format has markedly impacted WotC's business practices. Still, we don't need to make a sign of the cross and spit on the ground to repel the dark capitalist energies every MtG personality gives off whenever one comes up for any reason. Particularly when it doesn't feel like the person going "good riddance" really cares that much about the workers or whatever in other scenarios (see: Kai Tave pointing out Toshimo's reaction to the Pinkerton incident) and mostly just seems mad at Commander as a format. These tabletop games are all big luxury items we're voluntarily engaging with. They're often made of wasteful cardboard and plastic components shipped across the planet. Sniping at one another over who is a worse collaborator with the 1% is a really asinine micro-conflict to have.
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Sep 11, 2023 02:55
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Framboise posted:Please understand that I was asked to IK the thread and I agreed to do so on the condition that I'm not expected to be terminally online in the thread and will help out now and then, and wanted to do so in a minimally invasive way. This is the first time I've seen anyone complain about your decisions, outside of the thread that was deemed to be enough of a mess to need you as a dedicated IK. I don't even know if they've complained about you in that thread other than the guy I saw whining about tone policing in response to this probe. By SA standards, that's pretty loving good! Seriously. And this situation wasn't that big a deal. I'd have liked a longer probe and a less conciliatory probe reason, that's it. Again, by SA standards this is small stuff. Clearly the rest of the TG mod team has your back still, tempers have cooled, no is asking for your head. The worst has passed. Captain Invictus posted:my suggestion was that toshimo should just be threadbanned from the mtg thread, but I was rebuked. this pussyfooting around a poster like toshimo has, demonstrably, not done anything to stop them being who they are. multiple people, most prominently pablo nergigante, have said they stopped reading the mtg thread because of crazy aggro posters like toshimo, and I would trade toshimo for pablo in a loving heartbeat Yeah I agree with this. I've previously defended Toshimo as aggressive but generally correct in the EDH thread, so my hands are not clean here, but as I've read more and more threads all across the forum I keep seeing people I like say that they're into MTG or board games but that TG is too aggro and/or miserable and I don't want that. People have said this place reminds them of the bad days of video games (the forum) before it was cleaned up by video games (the admin), so if TG mods want some advice on making this a happier place to post about poo poo that should be fun I know who I'd talk to
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Sep 11, 2023 03:00
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Babe Magnet posted:If you genuinely feel that people are upset at you solely to be upset with you, and not because of the specific reasons multiple posters have stated in this thread and SAD (agreeing with the grave-dancing poster, etc.), then yeah maybe being an IK isn't for you. I didn't even know until now that I was the subject of yet another thread until now, so that's fun. I don't think anyone's upset with me solely to be upset, I think people are intentionally reading what I said in the most uncharitable light possible, which is something that isn't exclusive to me and happens all the time everywhere on this forum, which is also lovely. But this is also annoying to deal with to an extent that it makes me wonder why I'm investing any time in it at all, so I think I'm out. Good luck finding anyone willing to take that dump of a thread on in the capacity that's being demanded here. You've got your work cut out for you. Tarnop posted:This is the first time I've seen anyone complain about your decisions, outside of the thread that was deemed to be enough of a mess to need you as a dedicated IK. I don't even know if they've complained about you in that thread other than the guy I saw whining about tone policing in response to this probe. If this situation wasn't that big a deal then it certainly didn't warrant people lashing out at/about me in three different threads about it. It's clear that I'm not cut out for being an IK in the capacity that's being expected here, and like I had said before, it's something I was asked to do and only agreed to do on the expectation that I didn't have to be hyper-involved with it. I've been a mod/admin on other forums in the past and it's something I never really wanted to do again due to it being an exhausting and thankless full-time job (where the job is people getting angry at you for trying to help, or just not doing it their way) which is why I asked for my role to be so limited. I hate being in the spotlight or under a microscope like this. SA standards or not, this is a whole lot of drama I never wanted to have to deal with again. Framboise fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 03:00
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Framboise posted:I didn't even know until now that I was the subject of yet another thread until now, so that's fun. The probe got mentioned in the SAD small questions thread and they've already moved on to cspam drama
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Sep 11, 2023 03:05
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Framboise posted:Good luck finding anyone willing to take that dump of a thread on in the capacity that's being demanded here. You've got your work cut out for you. I don't actually think "the capacity being demanded here" is unreasonable, it's "ban known lovely posters for longer than 24 hours at a stretch." Now you yourself have said that you think this is a thing that should be done, but that you feel like your hands are tied: Framboise posted:You're talking to the wrong person when it comes to bans though, because I've never understood why SA even allows people to have a long rap sheet and think that if you haven't learned after the first few, you never will and shouldn't be allowed to stick around, but apparently that's too mean. I don't have much of a say in that anyway. and I think that's worth noting here in the feedback thread, because I've also brought this point up before that right now it feels like there are basically only two forms of moderation, an endless revolving door of 6-24 hour probations or permabans when someone crosses the posting event horizon. I think that what's being asked for when it comes to chronically lovely posters who repeatedly act like assholes is both A). not actually all that difficult to deliver on, and B). if there's a difficulty it sounds like it's on the end of the forum moderation as a whole being reluctant to commit to escalating probations when someone continues to persistently act like a dipshit. I think when someone's response is "good luck moderating that shithole of a thread," that's another sign that perhaps how moderation happens could stand to be reevaluated.
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Sep 11, 2023 03:13
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Framboise posted:I didn't even know until now that I was the subject of yet another thread until now, so that's fun. Tarnop posted:The probe got mentioned in the SAD small questions thread and they've already moved on to cspam drama yeah this, it's not a big deal there were like a dozen posts or so to point it out and then everyone moved into here or onto other stuff
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Sep 11, 2023 03:23
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Framboise posted:I don't think anyone's upset with me solely to be upset, I think people are intentionally reading what I said in the most uncharitable light possible, which is something that isn't exclusive to me and happens all the time everywhere on this forum, which is also lovely.
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Sep 11, 2023 03:27
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Kai Tave posted:I don't actually think "the capacity being demanded here" is unreasonable, it's "ban known lovely posters for longer than 24 hours at a stretch." Now you yourself have said that you think this is a thing that should be done, but that you feel like your hands are tied: At other places I've admin'd at, the general rule was that you get a few strikes and if you still push it, you're banned (with a few occasional exceptions in giving people a chance to redeem themselves with great effort, because at least it sometimes ended up being entertaining and the person got to stick around and regain the respect of their fellow posters again). None of this SA weirdness about a ban actually just being something you could buy yourself out of, just loving gone and IP banned if needed. But I understand that's part of SA's internet culture and just "is what it is" more or less. I've never really understood why people get so uptight about someone being outright exiled from an internet community when they show they don't really want to follow rules/respect others and just want to stir poo poo up. It isn't like they're being arrested for a crime or being crucified in public, it's showing them the door and making sure they can't get back in. But that's not how it is here and as someone who has just been in charge of one lovely thread, it's more difficult than you'd think to make calls on what moderation is and isn't necessary, especially if you want to dole out probes fairly, because the way they get handed out is so inconsistent throughout the entire site. And they're clearly meaningless. No one should be able to amass 10+ probes and still be able to stick around imo. Joke probes are kinda weird too (and I understand the irony of saying this considering that's all I've got on my own rap sheet), but that's another culture thing so whatever. What I guess I'm saying is that there aren't really consistent standards for what does and doesn't deserve consequences when clearly, that's a divisive subject when some people prefer a more hands-off approach and others want iron-fisted rule. Captain Invictus posted:you worded the probation reason so poorly that it's clearly not people "taking it uncharitably" considering the number of people who went "wtf is that probation reason", it's just a bad probe reason. it's not that big a deal, you could have requested it be changed but instead you're stepping down I guess, which, sure, I get it. Changed or not, it doesn't really matter at this point imo, especially for how needlessly stressful this has ended up being, especially when all you were doing was trying to handle things in a level-headed manner. I clearly missed the mark. I really do advise this thread to, in the future, try and look at what mods do in a way that understands that they're human and trying to do the job right, and not as punching bags to take their frustration out on, and you might see some more improvement. When all you look for is the worst in people, it's all you're going to find.
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Sep 11, 2023 03:35
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what the gently caress are you talking about
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Sep 11, 2023 03:41
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So that really sucks, and I want to reiterate that I'm happy with Framboise's work as an IK. We've basically been on the same page for prior reports and moderation in the magic thread. There's also not been any cases previously where Framboise wanted someone probed and I said no. Like not one. We have not been battling over whether or how much to probe people. I think it's more that, today, Framboise is asking for ramping and of course I've agreed. If we've just lost our IK over this one probation that's really unfortunate, and I'm very sorry Framboise if you feel that's necessary... but if it's what's best for you, then of course. We're very thankful for your help and being willing to volunteer. You've had some good insights over the last few months and you've always been responsive and communicative and thoughtful. I wish I'd taken time to suggest edits to that probation reason but by the time I saw the text of it it'd already been in the queue for a full day and I was just focused on getting it approved. I didn't think it was especially difficult to understand your intent. The magic thread has some aggro culture but each individual post is generally well below the threshold of even a sixer. That's hard to change. I do think the thread is in a better place now than it was three or four years ago. There is no interest at the admin level in just booting everyone with a long rap sheet. There are "lifetime achievement" permabans and everything on the rap sheet (and more besides) is considered in those cases... but there's tons of like, crappy old mod decisions from 10+ years ago, joke probations, and general nonsense on people's rap sheets to take that as a reliable indicator. It is also hard to justify a ban or a 30 day probation for saying something mean. I think what we do need to do is be more free with 3-day and week probations (everything 3+ requires admin approval), but like, we'll all need to be ready for the backlash from the first posters to catch 3+ day probes for being a bit rude, or emptyquoting someone to suggest without saying so that they're ridiculous, or expressing a sort of snide incredulity that they would think such-and-such a magic the gathering card was playable. To put it bluntly: the people most invested in harsher moderation of the Magic thread also seem to be the very same people who will receive the longer probations. There are exceptions but most of the complaints from that thread come from people who are also guilty of sniping, bickering, excessive ironyposting, etc. But I hear you guys. Antivehicular posted she's willing to take a more active role in that thread, and I will too.
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Sep 11, 2023 03:45
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Leperflesh posted:It is also hard to justify a ban or a 30 day probation for saying something mean. I think what we do need to do is be more free with 3-day and week probations (everything 3+ requires admin approval), but like, we'll all need to be ready for the backlash from the first posters to catch 3+ day probes for being a bit rude, or emptyquoting someone to suggest without saying so that they're ridiculous, or expressing a sort of snide incredulity that they would think such-and-such a magic the gathering card was playable. I think this is blowing things a bit too much out of proportion the other way. Toshimo is far and away the most aggro and toxic poster in the M:TG thread, it's not even close. They almost never post something that isn't lovely and hateful. All the other posters who have a tendency toward aggroposting do post normally. In fact, I'd say they all post normally most of the time, even! I agree with you that the thread has improved quite a bit over the last few years, and there's not some major need of a total overhaul of it, just a bit more reasonable moderation when it comes to the consistent shittiness from a few people, like Toshimo. I understand what you mean when you say rap sheets can be unreliable, but come on, Toshimo's is pretty obvious. I guess what I'm trying to get at is: doesn't seem hard to probe someone who went too far for six hours if they've never been smacked before, more if they have, and for the worst few in the thread if they're on a tear give them 3+ days. There shouldn't be that much backlash, it's not like the thread is in need of a pogrom. Also want to voice support for Framboise, I do think you were a bit light on moderation but tbh that's a better sin than being too heavy-handed. A fair IK.
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Sep 11, 2023 03:56
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I'm not coming at it from a Magic thread specific perspective to be clear. I'm thinking of how back in the day when bedlamdan used to regularly poo poo up tradgames because they were bored, eventually FactsAreUseless started giving them month-long probations mixed with bans and even told them "actually just don't post here anymore," and you know what happened? They stopped posting here, and the quality of the forum improved as a result. Just having a big rap sheet doesn't need to result in instant exile to the land of wind and ghosts but I think that if you can look at the top 6-10 probations in someone's rap sheet and they're all in the same thread for the same reason that maybe that's an indication that maybe that person just kinda sucks. Is their continued presence making the thread a better place or not? If not, why do they get to stick around and keep making it worse?
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Sep 11, 2023 03:59
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I think it’s pretty easy to justify a ban and/or month for a post like Toshimo’s. People eat them all the time for posting poo poo like that. Also, joke probes being why ‘lifetime awards’ are hard to correctly reward is the dumbest, most baffling reason ever. You can… look at the probes and easily determine if they are a serious probe or not. People aren’t asking for lifetime-award permabans for people who get a billion joke probes, they’re asking them for real pieces of poo poo who post garbage constantly.
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Sep 11, 2023 03:59
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and joke probes are almost universally sixers and you can use this greasemonkey script by Tetramin to hide all sixers if you want. Framboise wasn't a bad IK, this was just a slip-up centered around a particularly volatile poster's punishment, but if they don't want any stress involved then stepping down is the right choice rather than getting burnt out or anxious about it. You did good other than this one time.
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Sep 11, 2023 04:03
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yeah just be careful about how you word a probe next time? you don't always need a dissertation as a response to something, especially for such obvious probe reasons. this little blowup probably seems like it's a big deal right now but it's basically already passed now that you've explained yourself and everyone will forget about it in a day or two lol
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Sep 11, 2023 04:09
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The point is just that you can't just set some kind of automatic beep boop this person's sheet is long hit them hard rule. You have to sit and read through the probations, reasons, and look at the posts. Judgy Fucker posted:I think this is blowing things a bit too much out of proportion the other way. Toshimo is far and away the most aggro and toxic poster in the M:TG thread, it's not even close. They almost never post something that isn't lovely and hateful. It's actually trivial to see this (the bolded bit) isn't the case. I've clicked the question mark and looked at all of Toshimo's posts in the thread and the vast majority of them are totally normal magic the gathering thread posts. This is part of the issue that muddies the waters: there's always a lot of hyperbole surrounding the magic the gathering thread. This feels kind of bad, right now, talking about Toshimo while he's on probation and can't respond or defend himself. We do have this rule at the top of this feedback thread: Leperflesh posted:Do not attack other posters here. This thread is not a substitute for using the report function. I think it would be better to talk about "how we should moderate that thread" more and less "dump on Toshimo, specifically." Let's focus on broader questions: Kai Tave posted:Just having a big rap sheet doesn't need to result in instant exile to the land of wind and ghosts but I think that if you can look at the top 6-10 probations in someone's rap sheet and they're all in the same thread for the same reason that maybe that's an indication that maybe that person just kinda sucks. Is their continued presence making the thread a better place or not? If not, why do they get to stick around and keep making it worse? When a poster's rate of getting probated and the severity of the issues is falling over time I think that's a positive sign. I do actually look at that, too. I think if someone has been showing a trend of getting better over time that's worth encouraging and supporting, vs. just drawing a line and saying if you make one more post we don't like, you're out.
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Sep 11, 2023 04:26
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Leperflesh posted:I think it would be better to talk about "how we should moderate that thread" more and less "dump on Toshimo, specifically." Let's focus on broader questions: The only way moderation is ever going to be effective at actually moderating, i.e. curating a shared social space to be better, is if getting moderated isn't ultimately just a minor inconvenience. Yes, what "better" means is always going to be subjective and you will never get thousands of posters to agree on everything, but the pervasive sentiment over the last two versions of this thread has been an enormous reluctance to look at someone's lovely posts and just say "get the gently caress out of here." It doesn't even have to escalate straight to permabans but there's a huge gulf between 24 hours and forever and maybe that could stand to be exercised a bit more. I get that it's easier to just go "oh this guy is worthless" when they're posting, idk, obvious bigoted garbage or being outed as a huge heinous sex creep, but I think on the whole that seeing an announcement that, as far as I can tell, a regular person died of cancer as a great excuse to call them a class traitor and say "good riddance" should probably be met with a bit more "gently caress off" than a one day probe, and yet even the person who gave them that probation feels like they can't escalate things beyond that because it would be pointless for them to try and push for it. That's someone directly involved in the handing out of probations going "this system kinda sucks."
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Sep 11, 2023 04:54
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Yeah I want to be 100% clear that at no point did Framboise ask for or suggest a longer probation, on that post or any other post. The two of us have talked about what is permitted across SA previously, and based on that as well as posts today I believe he's talking about broader SA culture.
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Sep 11, 2023 05:06
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