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Leperflesh posted:Yeah I want to be 100% clear that at no point did Framboise ask for or suggest a longer probation, on that post or any other post. The two of us have talked about what is permitted across SA previously, and based on that as well as posts today I believe he's talking about broader SA culture. I think Framboise could have easily gotten a bigger probe if it was asked for. People who say messed up stuff like that get heavy probes and bans basically all the time. Just because Jeffrey rubberstamped the day probe doesn't mean that he had any real understanding of what it was about. People get harder punishments all the time than initially probed when the admins are made VERY aware of what was going on.
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Sep 11, 2023 05:14
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Jeffrey has also occasionally made a bad shoot with posters that later do get nuked from orbit, see: Rime
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Sep 11, 2023 06:47
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I'm glad to see that once people cooled down a bit, parties have realized that there is an actual potentially valid complaint here, and that is "One day for a hyper aggro repeat offender is a fairly light probe, and hedging talk in LC entries isn't helping discourage them." Now, I think it was unhelpful for the user to make the complaint so aggressively, but mods and IKs need to be the bigger people here. If we're going to have a feedback thread, you are going to catch some seriously unwelcome and possibly unfair flak. FWIW, I also don't like it when this thread is about a specific user, because then this is going to be a Thread Enemies Thread. That said, the exception must be made for when that user is someone with buttons when it's germane to their actions or inaction in that capacity. I doubt there's not much profit in litigating the specifics in this case. Here's what I would say: Do mods typically ask if you have good beliefs before probing bad posts? No, they don't and I don't think they should. Sure, I think it's typical to make indulgences if someone is often a good contributor, but that should probably only slow the acceleration of probe lengths rather than immunize them or truncate punishments. At most it should be, "I get where your coming from but this is too aggro" but even that is probably unwise to not give them the wrong idea. Punish bad posts unreservedly and hopefully they will stop making bad posts. If nothing else, a long LC entry will hopefully encourage longer probes which means fewer posts from them.
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Sep 11, 2023 08:48
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Just chiming in to say that I stopped reading the MTG thread because of Toshimo and similar folks running rampant with hostile/aggro posting with no repercussions.
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Sep 11, 2023 08:58
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Leperflesh posted:I can't approve a probation filed by an IK. Mods don't have any power in the queue.
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Sep 11, 2023 10:15
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Leperflesh posted:I think what we do need to do is be more free with 3-day and week probations (everything 3+ requires admin approval), but like, we'll all need to be ready for the backlash from the first posters to catch 3+ day probes for being a bit rude, or emptyquoting someone to suggest without saying so that they're ridiculous, or expressing a sort of snide incredulity that they would think such-and-such a magic the gathering card was playable. Obviously have a bit of common sense with date checking; if someone's gets a 24 and then has a year of fun, chill posting before having a real bad day then give them a reminder sixer or 24 instead of jumping straight to 72. And if someone starts calling in death threats against posters then "Hmm well first offense sixer" is not appropriate. But we're a forum full of nerds who read rulebooks for a hobby, we can absolutely understand the concept of compounding penalties. Splicer fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 10:41
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whydirt posted:Just chiming in to say that I stopped reading the MTG thread because of Toshimo and similar folks running rampant with hostile/aggro posting with no repercussions. I’m happy to approve a more rigorous set of “please shut up” probes because of this kind of thing, we are all here to post together in nerdhood, not flip out like assholes.
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Sep 11, 2023 11:26
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I'm sorry Framboise that this stressed you out so much. I generally think that you're a good poster, and certainly don't think you shouldn be pilloried over a single mistake, but if you believe this ain't for you then stepping down is probably for the best.sebmojo posted:I’m happy to approve a more rigorous set of “please shut up” probes because of this kind of thing, we are all here to post together in nerdhood, not flip out like assholes. This is great to hear, I am fully in favor of you guys just carpetbombing TG with probes until posting improves.
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Sep 11, 2023 11:33
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Leperflesh, if the entire stated purpose of you taking OP of the Magic thread was to corrct the course of the thread, and there's been call from all sides for more moderation, how come the last 24 hours have been marked by a brigade of both that thread and this one from PYF posters, and not a single finger lifted by the mod team? The loudest voices in both, and those making slanderous false claims, are people who never posted here and just showed up to drive-by and toss gas on the fire after the probe. I guess we thank Nuns With Guns for letting that whole thing ferment over there and spill out here. Am I to understand that your expectation is that I can waltz into the industry thread and go "I heard Leperflesh is a huge bigot (in minecraft)" and have you "tut tut go tell an admin"? Should we test it? You're correct that I have routinely asked for more moderation, so where is it when the shoe's on the other foot? These cowards should post receipts or GTFO.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:41
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Framboise posted:You said I was "sucking his dick" about it when all I did was agree with the notion that people should be paid for the work they do but it wasn't a good time to bring that up, and that the "Good riddance" comment was hosed up and lovely. So yeah, sounds pretty overdramatic to me and you can, in fact, stuff it. Leperflesh posted:I'm having a hard time understanding why it's not clear that Framboise agrees that it's bad to stan for Wizards of the Coast against the desire of workers to get paid? That is what Framboise agrees with, and had that criticism been posted a week ago or about someone who hadn't just died, it would not have drawn any sort of penalty. if there is a reason it specifically bothers me, it's because it's a big problem when people use the guise of politics in order to post bizarrely misanthropic poo poo, and its not something i want to see moderators on any subforum fall for. it is not necessary to make any kind of public statement on whether or not wage theft is good, or bad, in order to realize that posting "i'm glad that guy died because he was an instrument of Capital" is a thread about playing a trading card game, is a bad post. we already do this on the forums all the time- mods in other forums don't need to publicly hem and haw and express sympathy if someone posts poo poo like "i'm glad your aunt died of covid because she didn't mask" or something. i wasnt joking when i said i would have been less bothered if the post had said they were glad he died because they didn't like the last Commander banlist
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Sep 11, 2023 14:44
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Toshimo posted:The loudest voices in both, and those making slanderous false claims, are people who never posted here and just showed up to drive-by and toss gas on the fire after the probe. I guess we thank Nuns With Guns for letting that whole thing ferment over there and spill out here. People remarking on a leper's colony entry, who also post in TG, verbalizing that they thought the probation language had issues in two threads is not some simmering kettle I'm letting boil over. And as far as I see those are both the majority and the loudest voices in the MtG thread and here.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:52
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Nuns with Guns posted:People remarking on a leper's colony entry, who also post in TG, verbalizing that they thought the probation language had issues in two threads is not some simmering kettle I'm letting boil over. People making fake claims of offsite drama while you post in the the thread in a forum you moderate while just letting it all ramp up is 100% on you.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:54
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Toshimo posted:People making fake claims of offsite drama while you post in the the thread in a forum you moderate while just letting it all ramp up is 100% on you. I'm fine with talking about whether or not it was appropriate for people to air discord drama in the Legends thread, but as far as I see it was two people who jumped into the MtG thread who mentioned that, and I wouldn't call them the loudest voices calling for action on your post. There were way more words said by people who had been posting in that thread than anything else. I do feel like that's drifting outside of TG issues on moderating thread behavior and tone though. Is that the main concern you have here? I'm only asking because it might be more appropriate to talk about it in SAD or the PYF feedback thread. I'm okay with PMing, too, but I know how it looks like a problem vanishes when it's taken to PMs.
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Sep 11, 2023 15:13
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Toshimo posted:People making fake claims of offsite drama while you post in the the thread in a forum you moderate while just letting it all ramp up is 100% on you. They aren't fake, you just deleted the posts immediately after making them because you knew people would screenshot them if you didn't. This happened several times and the mod logs of you getting banned for doing that poo poo still exist on at least one discord server that I can search right now. All of which is completely immaterial to your suck-rear end posts all over this forum, which on their own merits warrant frequent long probes and bans every time you continue making them, if the admins don't decide to just perma your rear end after this is all over.
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Sep 11, 2023 15:17
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Nuns with Guns posted:Is that the main concern you have here? Honestly, yes, because now it's gone beyond PYF and TG and I'm seeing myself smeared as an alleged racist elsewhere and it's disgusting. Moderation in both places could have stepped in but didn't, and that's bullshit. If you have beef with the post that got probated, that's one thing: I said what I said and ate my probe. I don't think there's value in retreading that, but I would if asked. However, leveraging that into a campaign across the site and beyond to smear me for things I never said is some real gross poo poo.
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Sep 11, 2023 15:20
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I distinctly remember Toshimo being racist to toasters in at least one forums BSG game we were both in.
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Sep 11, 2023 15:28
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Leperflesh posted:If Toshimo's been saying racist things on discords that's something to report to the admins, please. Mods, including myself, can't do anything about offsite drama, and that's part of why bringing offsite drama into threads is prohibited. We also obviously can't color what we do with probations based on rumors told us about something that happened offsite. Even coming close to that has bitten me hard in the past. I'm serious about this. Toshimo, I haven't hit posts about this hard yet because the whole thing with Podima still smolders in recent memory - terrible poo poo happening offsite that did not get to mods & admins before he got all the way to being approved as an admin, and meanwhile us merrily enforcing a don't post about discord stuff rule to keep everything quiet. SIf there are victims and genuine complaints they need to get into PMs or emails with admins and be heard, not responded to with just "shut up" probations. But it's a fair point that this sort of rumor-spreading on the forums can be incredibly damaging and if it's being misrepresented it's way out of line. I've got the reports still open. I'm reiterating the quoted text above for everyone: if you have receipts, look, sebmojo is right here, or if you prefer, pick any other admin. Or use the email-all-the-admins email address. But if you're not willing to back up these accusations to the only people who can do anything about it, it's got to stop. Fajita Queen, do that now please, don't keep posting arguments here about this offsite stuff. It sucks to give probations to people who are honestly reporting bad behavior just because they're doing it in the wrong place, but there's a larger principle at play here that requires us to protect everyone from game-of-telephone rumor-mongering that gets badly out of hand very fast.
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Sep 11, 2023 17:57
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I'm not posting arguments about the offsite stuff. He is deflecting to complaining about that and only that because he can't answer for his years of lovely posts on this website, and my point was that the offsite poo poo doesn't matter because he sucks plenty bad enough here. Stop falling for this crap dude
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Sep 11, 2023 18:26
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Fajita Queen posted:They aren't fake, you just deleted the posts immediately after making them because you knew people would screenshot them if you didn't. This happened several times and the mod logs of you getting banned for doing that poo poo still exist on at least one discord server that I can search right now. Personally, I take accounts and logs of Discord stuff on good faith. I feel like there's been way too many instances where people have slid by on here because drama involving them was isolated to Discords and people feel like they can't share that information here without eating a ban. People should feel like they can bring awful poo poo up if someone is sliding into discords and being a bigot or abuser because they're sourcing links to those communities from SA. There is also a difference between pulling up outside issues because there's a problem that needs addressing and spilling tea. It doesn't have to be malicious or anything. I know I've run off things I remember without thinking much about it or expecting anything to be done about someone, too. I suppose it's something that needs to be handled thoughtfully and case-by-case, so at least in this situation I think we can focus in on acceptable posting behavior and attitudes posted in the thread itself that gives it a noxious stink while I poke at this other pile of hot wires. Toshimo posted:Honestly, yes, because now it's gone beyond PYF and TG and I'm seeing myself smeared as an alleged racist elsewhere and it's disgusting. Moderation in both places could have stepped in but didn't, and that's bullshit. I want to talk with Rhino before I set down any hard ground rules about the Legends thread, but I do agree that going from "I remember..." discussion into immediate calls for action is a really rapid escalation and it's not relevant or needed as "leverage" regarding the posting here anyway. Arivia posted:I distinctly remember Toshimo being racist to toasters in at least one forums BSG game we were both in. Like the device that toasts bread?
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Sep 11, 2023 18:28
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Nuns with Guns posted:Like the device that toasts bread? It's a joke. Toaster (yes, like the bread heater) was used as a perjorative for the evil robots (the Cylons) in the series, probably because the Cylons in the 1980s version actually kinda looked like toasters. Toshimo may have said "drat those toasters" but we all did, and it was the equivalent of cursing out elves for being snooty in a D&D campaign.
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Sep 11, 2023 18:30
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i think there is also a major difference between one rando posting "that guy was racist in discord" and multiple people, independently, saying it in any case like fajita said, that was tangential to the actual issues about that probation/post that were raised
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Sep 11, 2023 18:33
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I'll cop to it the person who initially brought up the racism was the poster Farg and myself. I don't think anyone else brought it up, Fahita Queen only mentioned it upthread because Toshimo did and was countering it by saying it is irrelevant. I was being snide but at the same time one post isn't exactly a high effort smear campaign and it's weird to use me to dismiss every other complaint from other posters and completely ignore their arguments.
mycot fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 22:40
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mycot posted:I'll cop to it the person who initially brought up the racism was the poster Farg and myself. I don't think anyone else brought it up, Fahita Queen only mentioned it upthread because Toshimo did and was countering it by saying it is irrelevant. I was being snide but at the same time one post isn't exactly a high effort smear campaign and it's weird to use me to dismiss every other complaint from other posters and completely ignore their arguments. It isn't weird at all, it's a very deliberate attempt to try to refocus the discussion onto something other than his toxic behavior in hopes that the mods will get distracted. And it's working, somehow?
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Sep 11, 2023 22:49
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Fajita Queen posted:It isn't weird at all, it's a very deliberate attempt to try to refocus the discussion onto something other than his toxic behavior in hopes that the mods will get distracted. And it's working, somehow? I was thinking I should say that my last post was my final thought on the Discord stuff, but I assumed my shift in the reply made it clear. Maybe not clear enough to make it explicit, so I'll say it directly now: I think we can drop the racism accusations and just focus on finding a better way to manage the card game threads if the posting in them is so noxious it drives people away. Same goes with anyplace else it feels like joyless whingeposting drags discussion down.
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Sep 11, 2023 23:04
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Nuns with Guns posted:I was thinking I should say that my last post was my final thought on the Discord stuff, but I assumed my shift in the reply made it clear. Maybe not clear enough to make it explicit, so I'll say it directly now: I think we can drop the racism accusations and just focus on finding a better way to manage the card game threads if the posting in them is so noxious it drives people away. Same goes with anyplace else it feels like joyless whingeposting drags discussion down. Thank you, and for the record you aren't who I was referring to at the end of my post there..  I do think that as others have said the posting has mildly improved in the past year or so but tradgames still feels like the most hostile forum on SA to post in besides the three politics ones, and by a comfortable margin. Plenty of words have been said about the reasons why, both in this feedback thread and the previous, so really it feels like there isn't much that can be done besides impotently post about it.
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Sep 11, 2023 23:14
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Me asking for that line of discussion to stop is not me ignoring the entire rest of the discussion.
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Sep 11, 2023 23:23
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Nuns with Guns posted:finding a better way to manage the card game threads if the posting in them is so noxious it drives people away. Same goes with anyplace else it feels like joyless whingeposting drags discussion down. I've said it elsewhere (probably in SAD) but my completely uninformed opinion is that it's basically a moderation confidence death spiral. People fail to see action and stop reporting, and mods can't typically act without reports so there is less action to be seen, and the cycle continues. If this model is assumed to be accurate, you can fix it demand side or supply side: that is, you can implore users to please report posts or you can just start aggressively handing out probes in problem threads. Ostensibly you could also have a 'feedback' mechanism that tell goons when a probe was acted on but that requires code and is way above just TG.
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Sep 11, 2023 23:47
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You really still think giving people with years worth of probes for being assholes in public another sixer is going to fix them? The solution is more 30-days and more bans, but also aggressive ramping like Splicer suggested. When being an rear end in a top hat gets you 3 days, then a week off, maybe that’s the motivation repeat offenders like Toshimo need
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Sep 12, 2023 00:06
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I don't have the slightest clue where this stuff about hostility comes from; frankly, it's making a mountain out of a molehill that could be solved with anything from a 7 to a 30 and be done with.
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Sep 12, 2023 00:23
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Feels Villeneuve posted:if there is a reason it specifically bothers me, it's because it's a big problem when people use the guise of politics in order to post bizarrely misanthropic poo poo, and its not something i want to see moderators on any subforum fall for. it is not necessary to make any kind of public statement on whether or not wage theft is good, or bad, in order to realize that posting "i'm glad that guy died because he was an instrument of Capital" is a thread about playing a trading card game, is a bad post. Feels Villeneuve rarely misses. Good post. The mtg thread is somehow way better than it was like 6-10 months ago when certain posters would obsessively make posts with no discussion of the game, wanting only to spark arguments and go off calling people smoothbrained or whatever mot du jour was being used as a substitute for the r-word. Leperflesh stepped in then and it calmed down for a while. Maybe Jeff should activate the boxing day button on the mtg thread.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:01
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I dunno. I get moderating is hard but if looking at a posting history as foul-smelling and obvious a skidmark of shame as Toshimo's and the general sentiment is wringing your hands going "gee guys I just don't know" then I also don't think there's all that much interest in trying very hard at it. And if comedy sixers are so much a problem that the entire value is meaningless as a means of tracking bad behavior then stop giving sixers for non-comedy reasons.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:05
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I think Anti and I have both already said we'll take an active role in that thread, we agreed with ramping and doing longer probations, and I'm not sure what else we need to agree to here that we haven't already. I don't mind that more people want to weigh in in support of more aggressive moderation, but the reason I'm not replying to every post is because the consensus is already clear and obvious and agreed-to. A couple of people have already volunteered to be IK in the magic thread, and we'll take a look at those ideas too.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:12
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TheKingofSprings might've gotten it right:TheKingofSprings posted:Don’t threadban him but that is a post he should pay Leperflesh posted:A couple of people have already volunteered to be IK in the magic thread, and we'll take a look at those ideas too. Oh poo poo, count me in. Or make it hoot so they can chain probe everyone when blood moon dodges the ban again
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Sep 12, 2023 01:13
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Magic thread needs a much firmer hand. Especially on the fab five FlatLuigi, Sickening, HootTheOwl, Jabar, and Toshimro. How have we gotten away with being this toxic this long?
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Sep 12, 2023 01:14
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Fajita Queen posted:I'm sorry Framboise that this stressed you out so much. I generally think that you're a good poster, and certainly don't think you shouldn be pilloried over a single mistake, but if you believe this ain't for you then stepping down is probably for the best.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:17
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HootTheOwl posted:Magic thread needs a much firmer hand. Especially on the fab five FlatLuigi, Sickening, HootTheOwl, Jabar, and Toshimro. We could call them "the hatewatch"
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Sep 12, 2023 01:18
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Fajita Queen posted:I am fully in favor of you guys just carpetbombing TG with probes until posting improves.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:18
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ilmucche posted:We could call them "the hatewatch"
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Sep 12, 2023 01:32
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Leperflesh posted:I think Anti and I have both already said we'll take an active role in that thread, we agreed with ramping and doing longer probations, and I'm not sure what else we need to agree to here that we haven't already. I don't mind that more people want to weigh in in support of more aggressive moderation, but the reason I'm not replying to every post is because the consensus is already clear and obvious and agreed-to. Thank you for this. I'm sorry for coming off strong with my criticism, it came from a lot of frustration building up because I really do hope things improve. ilmucche posted:We could call them "the hatewatch" lol, excellent
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Sep 12, 2023 01:37
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Thread is already getting better. You're welcome.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:40
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