|
This political compass feels forced
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2023 19:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 02:08 |
|
|
 "Yes, unproblematic" got me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2023 20:17
|
|
|
DACK FAYDEN posted:
Tag yourself, I'm "Helpful but carnivorous"
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2023 20:20
|
|
|
Captain Hygiene posted:Tag yourself, I'm "Helpful but carnivorous" I'm "unable to live up to own standards"
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2023 20:22
|
|
|
maybealabia posted:This political compass feels forced People turn to the political compass in search of a direction, but in the end they are still at a loss
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2023 20:30
|
|
|
The choice of this wikipedia table to have Wargs but not Elves, Dwarves, or Dragons is extremely weird to me. Are all 'good' races assumed to have souls, even though the article is contentious on if elves have souls?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2023 09:03
|
|
|
Elves, Dwarves, and Ents are canonically established to also have souls; their existence as a union of soul and flesh is actually a defining characteristic of the “Children of Ilúvatar” (i.e. the “good” and sapient races). Likewise, dragons share a pretty similar origin story to Orcs; Morgoth did it, but exactly how, Tolkien never figured out how to reconcile with his Catholicism.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2023 09:34
|
|
|
Captain Hygiene posted:Tag yourself, I'm "Helpful but carnivorous"
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2023 10:55
|
|
|
I’m Sentient.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2023 11:18
|
|
|
Platystemon posted:I’m Sentient. Don't make claims you can't prove. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2023 13:05
|
|
|
TinTower posted:Elves, Dwarves, and Ents are canonically established to also have souls; their existence as a union of soul and flesh is actually a defining characteristic of the “Children of Ilúvatar” (i.e. the “good” and sapient races). Yeah much like in catholic doctrine, Satan/Morgoth can't create, only corrupt existing things into new forms. So orcs are elves or some other child of Illuvatar twisted into a foul shape. Dragons are probably something like twisted Maiar like balrogs, Sauron, or Saruman. Interestingly, dwarves were originally an attempt by the Valar Aulë (god of smiths and matter) to make creatures, but lacked the ability to endow them with a soul so they were basically automatons. They got souls after Illuvatar forgave Aulë for overstepping his bounds. Notably, Sauron and Saruman were both Maiar close to Aulë before they were tempted by Melkor/Morgoth and Fëanor was a big follower of him. DarkHorse has a new favorite as of 17:04 on Sep 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2023 13:14
|
|
|
Maxwells Demon posted:The choice of this wikipedia table to have Wargs but not Elves, Dwarves, or Dragons is extremely weird to me. Are all 'good' races assumed to have souls, even though the article is contentious on if elves have souls?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2023 13:50
|
|
|
Maxwells Demon posted:The choice of this wikipedia table to have Wargs but not Elves, Dwarves, or Dragons is extremely weird to me. Are all 'good' races assumed to have souls, even though the article is contentious on if elves have souls? Fuckin Fëanor.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2023 13:50
|
|
|
90s Cringe Rock posted:Fuckin Fëanor.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2023 14:45
|
|
|
90s Cringe Rock posted:Fuckin Fëanor. To be said in the exact same tone one might declare "gently caress Ted Faro"
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2023 16:50
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 00:08
|
|
|
Can you explain that again in the form of a clown?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 01:00
|
|
|
Angepain posted:Can you explain that again in the form of a clown? 1 2 3 4 
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 01:13
|
|
|
TinTower posted:Elves, Dwarves, and Ents are canonically established to also have souls; their existence as a union of soul and flesh is actually a defining characteristic of the “Children of Ilúvatar” (i.e. the “good” and sapient races). Excuse me while I put my nerd glasses on. There are four incarnate races with souls: Men, Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs. Ents do not have souls. Their origins aren't ever explicitly stated, but they seem to be nature spirits who entered into trees at Eru's bidding — and spirits do not have souls within Tolkien's subcreation. Given that Manwë prophesized their coming while deliberating on his memories of the Music of the Ainur, it seems the Ents were always going to come into being, but that this was only consciously realized when Yavanna came to Manwë for help. The origins of dragons is even murkier, but is probably something very similar. 90s Cringe Rock posted:Fuckin Fëanor.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 01:15
|
|
|
Did Tolkien ever give an opinion on whether all dogs go to Heaven? This will help us determine his credibility on more esoteric things like elves.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 03:32
|
|
|
Angepain posted:Can you explain that again in the form of a clown? sure, just turn off your monitor
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 03:41
|
|
|
All Wargs go to Valinor
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 03:43
|
|
|
Angepain posted:Can you explain that again in the form of a clown? Turn off your monitor.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 05:01
|
|
|
Brandon Proust posted:sure, just turn off your monitor Platystemon posted:Turn off your monitor. Looks like you already turned yours off
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 05:05
|
|
|
It wouldn’t be such a deep cut had it not come from a clown. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 05:15
|
|
|
Falathrim posted:Excuse me while I put my nerd glasses on. The impression I got from the Silmarillion (and also from HoME) is that after Ilúvatar adopted the Dwarves, Yavanna said “uh, big G, we need someone to protect the trees from the beardy fuckers” and Eru was like “u cheeky little poo poo, but tbh u have a point”, so he ensouled the Ents as a check on the Dwarves. Pretty sure Treebeard’s song in TTT also has the Ents alongside the other Children, but tbh he’s probably a bit biased. (Also, whether orcs have souls is literally one of the biggest problems Tolkien had, because if they do, it means they could be Saved, and the wholesale slaughter of them we see in the entire legendarium is on a weak moral footing.) TinTower has a new favorite as of 09:11 on Sep 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 09:06
|
|
|
DarkHorse posted:Yeah much like in catholic doctrine, Satan/Morgoth can't create, only corrupt existing things into new forms. it'd be nice if a bunch of well-regarded fantasy wasn't just a weird retelling of the bible
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 11:59
|
|
|
TinTower posted:The impression I got from the Silmarillion (and also from HoME) is that after Ilúvatar adopted the Dwarves, Yavanna said “uh, big G, we need someone to protect the trees from the beardy fuckers” and Eru was like “u cheeky little poo poo, but tbh u have a point”, so he ensouled the Ents as a check on the Dwarves. Tolkien wrote fairly extensively on what it meant to have a soul, and was eventually pretty explicit about who did and did not have one. He described them as the four Incarnate races. He grappled for years with the origins of the Orcs because he found the idea of their having souls incredibly problematic. He toyed with the idea of their being like the Ents and Eagles, spirits that entered into something physical that Morgoth and Sauron had made, but do a cursory reading of LotR and you can tell that something just feels different between the two situations. Tolkien eventually realized he'd written himself into a corner and conceded the point that Orcs must be corrupted Men (not Elves, as Christopher described in his published Silmarillion), and therefore must have souls. As you've pointed out, this does mean that the wholesale slaughter of Orcs wasn't exactly awesome, but decided that their complete thralldom under Morgoth and then Sauron made it so that while redemption was strictly speaking possible, it was unlikely. So let's just sweep this under the rug and move on. On Ents and their nature, bolding obviously mine: The Silmarillion posted:Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: ‘O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: “Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.'" An incarnate soul is something granted directly by Eru; as opposed to a spirit which wanders around and takes up a physical dwelling in something that already exists.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 14:00
|
|
|
Falathrim posted:Tolkien eventually realized he'd written himself into a corner and conceded the point that Orcs must be corrupted Men (not Elves, as Christopher described in his published Silmarillion), and therefore must have souls. Really! Huh. I was about to say that this contradicted something I like about the Orcs, that they seem to have Elf-like lifespans, but then I remembered that the most famous way in which Sauron's power corrupts characters physically is by not dying. So it's not unreasonable for them to be Men Who Live Too Long. It'd certainly be a perversion of the natural order. (There's a conversation in... Either the end of book four or start of book five between a couple Orcs and it's possible to read it as the older Orc referring to when Melkor was still in charge. Which kind of fits with "in earlier drafts, Gondolin only fell a couple hundred years ago.")
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 15:18
|
|
|
redleader posted:it'd be nice if a bunch of well-regarded fantasy wasn't just a weird retelling of the bible
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 15:25
|
|
|
Or maybe just let some orcs be good and get loving murdered in a war their leadership foisted upon them. The themes of lotr imply industrial society is to the detriment of goodness, and orcs live in exactly that kind of society that obsesses over production and war, sacrificing connection with nature and individual virtue. Orcs are just Americans is what I'm saying.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 15:25
|
|
|
So you're on team no souls then?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 15:30
|
|
|
DACK FAYDEN posted:Honestly, Tolkien's Catholicism, while it suffuses the entire work, is way less egregious than poo poo like C.S. Lewis who comes off like a total hack in everything he ever wrote imo. I cannot believe those two were friends based solely on their writing alone. Yeah agreed. Tolkien's Catholicism led to some problematic stuff in his writing and it absolutely suffuses it, but it's not obnoxiously preachy like C.S. Lewis can be. Lots of people at that time were devotedly religious and it's impossible for it to not to affect their work, but Lewis reveled in it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 15:33
|
|
|
I like books about alien angels and Lion Jesus. But I also like books about wizard angels and mountain Hebrews.
Paladinus has a new favorite as of 16:09 on Sep 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 16:07
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:I like books about alien angels and Lion Jesus. But I also like books about wizard angels and mountain Hebrews.  I need to read more of Lewis's stuff for adults. Hell, I need to reread the Space Trilogy as an adult. It was absolutely wild reading it as a kid.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 16:16
|
|
|
ikanreed posted:Or maybe just let some orcs be good and get loving murdered in a war their leadership foisted upon them. I've often wondered what it would be like to be an orc logistics clerk.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 16:46
|
|
|
CS lewis also famously got so owned by woman in a debate about naturalism that he almost stopped writing entirely.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 16:48
|
|
|
ikanreed posted:CS lewis also famously got so owned by woman in a debate about naturalism that he almost stopped writing entirely. I got that confused with naturism for a second, the debate I imagined was far more interesting
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 16:50
|
|
|
Count Roland posted:I've often wondered what it would be like to be an orc logistics clerk. originally Sauron filled the role of Melkor's truck & train nazis so it fits pretty well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 16:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 02:08 |
|
|
 https://acoup.blog/2020/06/19/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-viii-the-mind-of-saruman/ (the bit about the ring working "how I think" is that saruman is convinced the ring will let him overthrow sauron and lol)
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2023 16:55
|
|