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LinkesAuge posted:Also what I'm getting from this thread is that the "Forsaken" are to be seen as a "faction", something I don't think the show really communicated? All the talk has always been about this pretty generic great evil, ie the "Dark One". Once again, it's okay if these concepts etc. are explored more over time, I'm mentioning it because maybe there is a gap between what book readers can deduce from the TV show and thus connect the dots and what someone like me got so far from the show. The Dark One is the great big evil looking at ending the world and remaking it in his image. He was „locked away“ at the end of the Age of Legends some 3000 years ago in a desperate last strike by the „forces of good“. The Forsaken were the members of his leadership council that was locked away with him. That leadership council was made up of the strongest, most dangerous channelers on the side of the Dark One.
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Sep 10, 2023 11:41
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I will say that just because the show may have mentioned or alluded to those things once or twice (mostly in the previous season) doesn't necessarily mean it's been great about building them up dramatically or framing them with the appropriate context in these recent episodes. I know who Lanfear is but in watching the episode I was thinking "Ok, neat, but how will a TV-only audience know what the big deal is? This could have been handled better"
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Sep 10, 2023 12:39
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Well that’s always a problem in a TV series: How often and how explicitly does something need to be repeated in order to be sure that the average TV viewer has figured it out. In the case of Lanfear, I don’t think that the viewer is expected to know every detail that we as book-readers have seen or noticed. However, it should have just been driven in - again - that the Forsaken are to be taken extremely seriously.
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Sep 10, 2023 13:15
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Data Graham posted:Wait'll you read the books where there is Moiraine and Moridin and Morin and Mierin and Marin and Morin and Marc Maron I gotta say, when I first heard Sanderson was including a Marc Maron cameo where he does an in-universe, 130 page podcast episode with Rand in book 12 I was a little nervous...but he pulled it off well.
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Sep 10, 2023 13:27
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LinkesAuge posted:I'd consider myself TV literate but the show really didn't communicate this, especially that Rand's gf is a "Forsaken". The scene where Lanfear is "summoned" is certainly dramatic and does indeed highlight importance but it doesn't convey whether or not Lanfear is powerful or what her deal is, why she was "summoned" or how she even fits into the story. So it certainly isn't subtle but it also doesn't convey more than that (and it gives you a hint that this is who Rand's "gf" could be). Everything else might be a logical conclusion with prior knowledge but as a non-book viewer she could be anything, especially in a fantasy setting where "summoning demons" or whatever else is rather common (and yes I can also deduce that she is his daughter/the girl from the opening but that's it). Let’s ignore that Moiraine has been very explicit about Seals breaking being the way the Forsaken are being unleashed, such that what happened at the start of the episode was clearly more than just “summoning a demon” in some generic sense. Let’s just skip to the Lanfear reveal scene, where the show literally spells it out for the viewer: The Show, Very Explicitly posted:Ihvon: “What did you find?”
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Sep 10, 2023 19:15
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LinkesAuge posted:I'd consider myself TV literate but the show really didn't communicate this, especially that Rand's gf is a "Forsaken". The scene where Lanfear is "summoned" is certainly dramatic and does indeed highlight importance but it doesn't convey whether or not Lanfear is powerful or what her deal is, why she was "summoned" or how she even fits into the story. So it certainly isn't subtle but it also doesn't convey more than that (and it gives you a hint that this is who Rand's "gf" could be). Everything else might be a logical conclusion with prior knowledge but as a non-book viewer she could be anything, especially in a fantasy setting where "summoning demons" or whatever else is rather common (and yes I can also deduce that she is his daughter/the girl from the opening but that's it). Did you perhaps miss the shot where she started moving again very soon after being hella stabbed? The way that the show communicates that she is one of the Forsaken is that another character, who would know and can't lie, says that she is. For the viewer, it's a twist, whose full significance has yet to be depicted, because there's going to be four more episodes of this season.
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Sep 10, 2023 20:23
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Data Graham posted:Wait'll you read the books where there is Moiraine and Moridin and Morin and Mierin and Marin and Morin and Marc Maron Hey what the flame wielders. What the flame buddies. What the flamekin. *takes an audible sip of kaf* POW I just soiled my breeches. So who're your guys? Thom, Loial, that guy in Cairhein who was doing the story of the Horn? Joementum fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 23:54
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LinkesAuge posted:Everything else might be a logical conclusion with prior knowledge but as a non-book viewer she could be anything She said she is a monster, then it cuts to Alanna and them saying lanfear is loose, quoting the same poem while we see selene do the same pose as lanfear (with quick edits back and forth in case you forgot) from the begining of the episode, with big dangerous horn music playing. It couldn't have been more clear if she turned to the camera and explained it.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:01
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Huge lol that the people who get mad when a book reader suggests the show might be hard to follow for non book readers are now berating a non book reader for having trouble following the show.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:08
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arteliad posted:Huge lol that the people who get mad when a book reader suggests the show might be hard to follow for non book readers are now berating a non book reader for having trouble following the show. I mean, people in this forum somehow managed to not notice that the character Stormfront in The Boys was a Nazi, so I don't really put anything past goons as far as not noticing the obvious.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:18
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arteliad posted:Huge lol that the people who get mad when a book reader suggests the show might be hard to follow for non book readers are now berating a non book reader for having trouble following the show. There is a difference, you walnut, between book readers cloaking their dislike of changes in white knighting for non-readers who rarely ever have problems understanding the points they bring up, and one rando going "How was I supposed to know who that person is even though they have a WWE Promo playing of who they are at the same time?"
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Sep 11, 2023 01:25
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Data Graham posted:I will say that just because the show may have mentioned or alluded to those things once or twice (mostly in the previous season) doesn't necessarily mean it's been great about building them up dramatically or framing them with the appropriate context in these recent episodes. As a non-book reader* -- It comes across INCREDIBLY clearly. I think some stuff went overlooked or missed by OP (not trying to insult anybody, it happens all the time even to the best of us). My spouse and I had zero issues following the plot, and we both really liked the twist. She's terrifying. I love it. *(I did read the first, maybe second book a very very very long time ago. I remember next to nothing and definitely nothing related to Lanfear.)
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Sep 11, 2023 02:00
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arteliad posted:Huge lol that the people who get mad when a book reader suggests the show might be hard to follow for non book readers are now berating a non book reader for having trouble following the show. *crosses arms, tugs braid*
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Sep 11, 2023 04:35
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I dunno if I can comment here, because I read the first book maybe a decade ago? So perhaps my opinion isn't as unblemished as others. But my read on the season was dictated by the opening, with a bunch of hidden figures sitting around the table. We see two clearly, but there are little hints as to the identities of the others e.g. those super long, claw like fingernails that one of them has. So I've been going off the assumption that this season's playing a game, asking us to guess the identities of those people based on the characteristics we're shown in the opening. So yeah, I've been going off the read that we're meant to be a bit paranoid, and guessing the loyalties of the supporting cast members as and when they appear. And, besides, Selene screams villain from the moment she turns up -- just by virtue of her interest in Rand. Then she turns up in Rand's ambiguous dream, she's way too chill about her home burning down, she decides that the two of them should gently caress off as soon as attention is drawn their way... if they hadn't revealed her to be a baddie this episode I was gonna complain that the show was really overegging the pudding here. I'd be surprised if goons who'd been around the block a few times didn't call it tbh. I think Kate Fleetwood's loyalties are more ambiguous at this point tbh -- though they obviously want us to suspect her, she seems a little too complicated for it to be that straightforward. Also I just like the character and don't want to see her get murked. sweet geek swag posted:I mean, people in this forum somehow managed to not notice that the character Stormfront in The Boys was a Nazi, so I don't really put anything past goons as far as not noticing the obvious. No, they noticed. It was one goon pretending not to so that people would be drawn into concern trolling arguments about the validity of Nazism.
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Sep 11, 2023 04:48
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its HIM posted:Let’s ignore that Moiraine has been very explicit about Seals breaking being the way the Forsaken are being unleashed, such that what happened at the start of the episode was clearly more than just “summoning a demon” in some generic sense. Let’s just skip to the Lanfear reveal scene, where the show literally spells it out for the viewer: I feel book readers are now intentionally misreading what I tried to say. I didn't say that you couldn't piece it together (I personally did), just that the show didn't directly communicate that to its audience. It is also interesting why everyone is so focused on searching for pieces of information/exposition instead of looking at the flow of the story and the overall pacing as well as the intention/motivation behind all of this. Shouldn't the more relevant question be if a non-book reader would get anything from this Lanfear reveal? That's why I posted what I did, to emphasize that the show simply didn't do much to make this a "big moment" outside of the whole "twist" angle that Rand's gf is a bad guy. You could argue she is now also revealed as this new threat but the show viewer so far just sees a somewhat generic threat, nothing specific and in no way is she even presented as bigger threat than the Dark One so at best you can ask "why should I care for this new bad guy(girl)?" The answer to that is simply that there is no reason to care outside of needing more answers and more context. That doesn't need to be bad, not every reveal or moment needs to be big but if it was supposed to be a bigger reveal (for a book reader) or some sort of big moment in the story then I would say it didn't really land in an impressive way. So I hope people stop misunderstanding me. There is certainly enough information available to solve this story/identity "puzzle" but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point was more about the fact that solving that puzzle wasn't some big moment for me as a viewer and more of a "yeah, I guess that checks out, so what?" and if someone didn't do that it would be even more underwhelming/confusing. Like I said, everything about Lanfear already pointed to "bad guy" from the beginning so the specifics don't really matter, it's a lot more important what it means for the broader story that Lanfear is around (and a Forsaken) and that isn't explained or shown in the show. This can and probably will happen in the future but I think a good show does a better and more elegant job in setting these things up. I honestly don't even see why the show was interested in keeping Lanfears true identity a secret to the audience. The "reveal" at the end wasn't worth it, it's the kind of "mystery filler" I'm never a big fan of. It would even helped to raise the tension in scenes between Lanfear and Rand if we as audience would have had more knowledge than Rand. That's why I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing with Lanfear is very different from the books because it smells like typical TV storytelling for some easy "dramatic" moments that don't serve a bigger purpose. It's one of the reasons why I have no idea why Lanfear waited all this time to do what she did and I don't expect an answer because it seems like the answer is because the writers needed her to only use her power/reveal herself at a convenient moment. I'll also repeat that the whole thing didn't do her any favors in establishing her as a threat. Moraine/Rand got too easily away so the characters treat her as threat and that's fine but we are shown the opposite. First impressions matter and if Lanfear is meant as a big threat then I don't think this was a good introduction in that regard. PS: Also I want to highlight that its a rule of writing to not treat your exposition dumps as solid foundation for important character moments/reveals. Great exposition for example should always communicate something beyond mere information, it should also either say something about the character telling it (example: Obi-Wan in Star Wars talking about the past and the Jedi early on, it's not just conveying information about them, it's showing us emotions about personal lose, regret etc.) or contextualize the overall setting, ie what certain information tells us about the kind of world we are seeing, think about that "exposition dump" in Star Wars New Hope where the officers talk about the senate etc., it's really not about explaining the exact political landscape, it's more about establishing that even Darth Vader and the Empire can't do whatever they want and have to keep up appearances to a certain extent AND it serves to explore the power dynamic between Darth Vader and the other Imperials (but in neither example is it important that the viewer remembers any specific information from that exposition and no other scene relies on that information to work). That's where many shows/movies struggles with book adaptations. They are too worried about conveying straight information and then you get awkward exposition dumps that don't do much beyond that and then end up as "noise" to the viewer and this show does suffer from it too. A good example of that was last ep where Nynaeve gets her exposition dump in regards to the Trial of the Arches and she isn't even aware of how it functions or where they are going and yet later on we are shown that her friends know about this place and the Trials (the "new girl", can't remember the name right now, even talks about past people that went missing in the Arches so its even a common event and knowledge). So that exposition didn't happen to Nynaeve, it was purely there for the audience but didn't really make sense for the character and didn't add anything to the character. Its another situation where information is held back or not explored earlier in a more elegant way and then dumped all at once just because the show wanted to make the whole lead up to it more mysterious/dramatic. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 09:02
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Maybe I'm still misunderstanding you here, but oIdmate being a significant threat is pretty clear IMO? She was released from a super cage covered in blood and doing her best That Lady From The Ring impression, Moraine is scared of her, she's said to be on or above the threat level of Suit Dude who seems to be the show's current big bad, she's got power over the Dementors (probably the most significant nonhuman threat?) and she survived being mutilated with a sword. The character also dominates the two most important structural positions in the episode -- the end of the cold open and the end of episode cliffhanger -- syntactically marking her as a significant force. It also doesn't seem like Moraine or Rand have even necessarily escaped from her. I fully expect her to jump up at the start of next episode and demonstrate that her bag of impressions extends to The Terminator too, but that's entirely in my brain and not on screen.
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Sep 11, 2023 09:52
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LinkesAuge posted:Also what I'm getting from this thread is that the "Forsaken" are to be seen as a "faction", something I don't think the show really communicated? All the talk has always been about this pretty generic great evil, ie the "Dark One". Once again, it's okay if these concepts etc. are explored more over time, I'm mentioning it because maybe there is a gap between what book readers can deduce from the TV show and thus connect the dots and what someone like me got so far from the show. I am not a book reader, but the very first scene of season 2 shows all the evil dudes meeting up in an evil room wearing evil cloaks and talking about their evil plans, it's hardly subtle. I don't know what a forsaken is, but they've established that Ishamael is both powerful and Up To Something, so them revealing another one isn't surprising. I assume more will appear in upcoming episodes too. I think the show is somewhat bad at establishing some things too (like I completely forget what is up with the two sisters that Lan and Moiraine hangs out with and why they're important if they're just sitting around in their villa all day), but also it's important to note: the story is simply not that complex and you might be overthinking it a bit.
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Sep 11, 2023 10:02
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She's also the only character we've seen with a big spooky prophecy poem that has all the warders looking worried. Pretty good sign you're dealing with an important evil person: someone took the time thousands of years ago to write down about how they're "daughter of the night" and they need blood. That said, have we had an on-screen explanation of The Foresaken, or has that been confined to the glossary you can click on if you're watching on a PC?
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Sep 11, 2023 10:09
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Joementum posted:She's also the only character we've seen with a big spooky prophecy poem that has all the warders looking worried. Pretty good sign you're dealing with an important evil person: someone took the time thousands of years ago to write down about how they're "daughter of the night" and they need blood. I don't know that we have had a full breakdown of what the Forsaken are on screen, but I'm less worried about that because ultimately the real question has to do with Lanfear specifically, and we don't yet know that her new power has anything to do with her being a Forsaken. I assume Moiraine is going to give Rand a better explanation in the next episode, when they are safe, but at the moment I think the show has adequately demonstrated that Lanfear is one of the big bads.
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Sep 11, 2023 10:21
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Joementum posted:That said, have we had an on-screen explanation of The Foresaken, or has that been confined to the glossary you can click on if you're watching on a PC? There was the scene in S1 of Sad Warder and the little Forsaken statues, I think that was the main bit of set-up they got
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Sep 11, 2023 10:28
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Rarity posted:There was the scene in S1 of Sad Warder and the little Forsaken statues, I think that was the main bit of set-up they got Oh yeah. And Ishmael has repeatedly said "Foresaken" is one of his names this season.
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Sep 11, 2023 11:06
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The show hasn't been good at setting up a lot of the lore, perhaps because of the absurdly compressed running times of season 1 but then again I don't think they're much better at it in this season either. Pretty sure they didn't even mention the horn of valere until like, the episode where it was taken out of the box under the throne at the end of S1? Which is just mental in terms of basic storytelling errors. All that being said, imo it is 100% obvious from the episode that Lanfear is another powerful Big Bad like Ishamael is. It wasn't a terrible introduction, on the whole. Presumably next episode there will be a more detailed lore dump about her from Moiraine.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:12
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CainFortea posted:There is a difference, you walnut, between book readers cloaking their dislike of changes in white knighting for non-readers who rarely ever have problems understanding the points they bring up, and one rando going "How was I supposed to know who that person is even though they have a WWE Promo playing of who they are at the same time?" Walnut is such a funny way to insult someone
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Sep 11, 2023 14:27
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El Grillo posted:The show hasn't been good at setting up a lot of the lore The 2 year gap between seasons doesn't really help here
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Sep 11, 2023 14:35
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I suppose it would also be fair to say that it's very much in keeping with the book for certain throwaway lines or barely-explained allusions to suddenly become extremely important much later.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:36
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LinkesAuge posted:I feel book readers are now intentionally misreading what I tried to say. I didn't say that you couldn't piece it together (I personally did), just that the show didn't directly communicate that to its audience Speaking for myself, I am not misreading what you're saying. I just think what you are saying is bonkers.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:38
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LinkesAuge posted:I feel book readers are now intentionally misreading what I tried to say. I didn't say that you couldn't piece it together (I personally did), just that the show didn't directly communicate that to its audience. I don't know, my non-book reader wife figured out who she was and that she's Serious Business pretty easily. Between the Weird Vibes, Fire Dreams, Repeated Reading of Prophecy, Blood Summons, and Oh poo poo We Can't Kill Her reveal...I'm not sure how much clearer it could have been communicated in the time allotted.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:55
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sweet geek swag posted:I don't know that we have had a full breakdown of what the Forsaken are on screen, but I'm less worried about that because ultimately the real question has to do with Lanfear specifically, and we don't yet know that her new power has anything to do with her being a Forsaken. It looked like she was raised / created / brought back as some sort of blood beast so whatever’s going on with her body you’ve got to figure it’s superhuman and not too surprising that slitting her throat isn’t enough.
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Sep 11, 2023 15:47
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Obviously she's a bad guy, the question is why should the audience care about her specifically when we have a bunch of other bad guys - Ishamael, the Seanchan, Padan Fain - still in play. And yes, this is something that the books establish much much better. Spoiler bars for maximum safety but this is just about stuff cut or rearranged that we've passed. 1. Since the very beginning, the Forsaken are mentioned almost every time the Dark One himself is. There's a little catechism the characters repeatedly speak that "The Dark One and the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul". This repetition is important for making the concept stick in the reader's head, as opposed to the 1 throw away scene in Season 1 with Stepin praying in front of some idols. 2. The climax of Book 1 involves the characters facing off against 2 freshly released Forsaken and they make a big deal of it. This establishes the Forsaken as the main "end of book bosses" so to speak. The show cutting those 2 is pretty reasonable, but it's still 1 less big dramatic way of establishing the importance of the Forsaken as a group to the story. 3. The Blood Calls Blood prophecy was found and read early in Book 2 before Selene is introduced, and the characters who find it have a conversation about Lanfear specifically and some of the implications of her being free. This establishes the stakes up front and lets the reader figure out the deal with Selene on their own (because she's also sus as gently caress in the book). Then the "reveal" that Selene = Lanfear is saved for a quiet moment a little beyond where we are where its tone is creepy rather than, I don't know, action-y I guess.
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Sep 11, 2023 16:18
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El Grillo posted:Pretty sure they didn't even mention the horn of valere until like, the episode where it was taken out of the box under the throne at the end of S1? Which is just mental in terms of basic storytelling errors. To be fair to season 1, this is pretty similar to how it is introduced at the end of book 1.
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Sep 11, 2023 16:33
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Wheel of Time confirmed as top tier show, they just cast Shohreh Aghdashloo 
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Sep 11, 2023 17:31
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Rarity posted:Wheel of Time confirmed as top tier show, they just cast Shohreh Aghdashloo 
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Sep 11, 2023 17:51
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Rarity posted:Wheel of Time confirmed as top tier show, they just cast Shohreh Aghdashloo  I assume she'll be playing Mat next season?
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Sep 11, 2023 18:03
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Rarity posted:Wheel of Time confirmed as top tier show, they just cast Shohreh Aghdashloo 
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Sep 11, 2023 18:04
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Rarity posted:Wheel of Time confirmed as top tier show, they just cast Shohreh Aghdashloo Officially? Link?
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Sep 11, 2023 18:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Officially? Link? pik_d posted:Well this is unofficially official Stolen from The Book Barn spoiler thread. Breaking up the twatter link because the character she's playing is a spoiler so far and SA tweet embeds just spill it out in the open.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:09
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LinkesAuge posted:I feel book readers are now intentionally misreading what I tried to say. I didn't say that you couldn't piece it together (I personally did), just that the show didn't directly communicate that to its audience. Nobody has missed the significance of the Lanfear reveal.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:15
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DTurtle posted:This episode has another reveal that was extremely obvious as a book reader, but somewhat missable as a non-book reader. I won’t mention what, as I have seen people in this thread and in reaction videos miss it or miss the significance of what they saw. It’s the fact that novice chores are busywork that is gone over by proper Tower servants, right? Because that was some awful form when Egwene was supposed to be “mopping”.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:26
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:To be fair to season 1, this is pretty similar to how it is introduced at the end of book 1. Discussion for book thread though
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Sep 11, 2023 19:57
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El Grillo posted:Nah. The books have plenty of flaws but this is very inaccurate. What do you mean, nah? That's literally the text of the book. I just checked the kindle version of Eye of the World and it's brought up once before the end of the book.
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Sep 11, 2023 20:30
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