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If someone is routinely coming into a thread to be a miserable prick and get into slap fights, they shouldn’t be allowed back in the thread. Look at Toshimo’s post history in the thread and tell me it wouldn’t just be a straight improvement to excise him and his posts entirely. He’s at least forty years old and and has been posting like this for as long as the Magic thread has been around. The thread used to be insanely toxic because me and a bunch of other posters decided that it was a place to be lovely to each other, but most people lightened up a few years ago and it’s gotten to be a lot better. Toshimo didn’t follow suit and in fact has been tripping over himself to be even more inflammatory and rude. Why is it better that he hasn’t been threadbanned? Draw the line in the sand now imo, if you’re not posting about Magic, or even a Magic related topic, in good faith, get smoked. fadam fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 01:49
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Coming from the MtG thread to say that yeah, it needs way more moderation and bans. I don't report because people get away with things enough that I assume the mods are cool with it, getting rid of Toshimo, either from the thread or the forums as whole, would be a good start.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:53
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I read the Magic thread every day and one of the few thread regulars that stands out to me is Toshimo because almost every time he posts it is shockingly vitriolic, hateful, and aggressive. It’s honestly disgusting to me that there’s even debate about whether he should be allowed to continue to post in the thread or even SA in general. He has been given countless chances and warnings. Why is he allowed to continue inflict his misery on this forum?
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Sep 12, 2023 02:24
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ilmucche posted:We could call them "the hatewatch"
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Sep 12, 2023 02:26
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I will also vouch for my own part in that Toshimo's posting (though not solely his, mind) drove me away from reading the Commander MTG thread. I've posted in no more than four threads in TG in my 15 years on this forum, not counting this one, and in that time I've gone down to reading two of them, the Mahjong thread, in which we are all too collectively sad to argue about things and instead functions like a support group for people who play this terrible game; and, the Flesh and Blood thread, which does not see enough posts to have anything resembling drama. Outside of these threads, my experience in this subforum has been basically miserable. The cliques and cults of personality surrounding certain posters drive acceptable discussion in such a way that it is frustrating to find a way to interact with other goons in the forum in a way that doesn't have the baseline hostility of walking into a local game store with an established community of regulars and trying to patronize the place. I'm not sure if that's ironic, or to be expected. What drove me nuts about Framboise's response to Toshimo were several things. 1) "The more I've thought about this, the less I'm willing to let it slide." Frankly, Toshimo's post was, to my eyes, plainly in bad taste at best, and in my opinion, loving ghoulish. And the only reason I was aware of it is because I happened to look at the LC, see that Toshimo got probed yet again for yet another lovely Magic post, except this time it went beyond being merely aggro and crossed the line into being actively a hateful thing to say about someone who just literally died of literal cancer, over a literal card game for literal children. Dressing it up in the idea of some kind of labor solidarity thing is, baseline, cynical bullshit. I would have sent him to the shadow realm before I even hit the end of that post, let alone the insane "good riddance." Framboise did not have that kind of immediate reaction. He needed to think about it. That demonstrates a lack of judgment, not an abundance of it. 2) Twice in the probation Framboise obliquely praises Toshimo's general ouvre, not in tone but it content. Wildly unnecessary, but the phrasing reads very much as though the punishment is reluctant, when it frankly should have been enthusiastic. There's something of a meme about Toshimo in particular, but one I suspect plagues this whole subforum, that Toshimo is frequently fundamentally correct in his assessments about things. Framboise isn't the only one to have praised Toshimo even in the immediate aftermath of that post. People have done it so often that it's practically cliche to include a little aside about "Nah man you're basically right" when responding to him. I don't frankly think Toshimo is correct about much at all, and he's an incorrigible rear end in a top hat on top of it, way more often than is warranted by the subject matter. But nerdy gamer sorts, and goons in particular, have always been privy to a sort of social phenomenon in which the person in the room with the biggest personality and with the most forcefully passionate arguments and/or the one most willing to be confident and dismissive of others is also right, they're just a dick about it. And herein lies the problem with this forum. It is very difficult to disagree with people about matters of opinion on this forum in a productive way. Namely, because the prevailing attitude almost always defers to the biggest personalities, and people either fall in line behind them, or else they loving leave. Which is, I think, what happens, often. People just peace out because dealing with tedious dipshits like Toshimo becomes so exhausting that it isn't worth arguing about over a children's game and there isn't the overarching sense of urgency that might keep someone invested in, say, an actual political discussion for an extended length of time. So when Toshimo is the only one left standing because everyone who might have disagreed with him hosed off, it sure looks like he's winning a lot of arguments and nobody is disagreeing with him, and thus, he's right. And the moderation, perhaps up until recently, has generally been very supportive of this dynamic. Dipshit sex pervert former moderator Podima once probed me for saying that the card Mindslaver is a poo poo card for poo poo people (and I will stand by that forever), for example, and when I asked him what the gently caress, he told me that I was "sucking the air out of the room" as though there are certain opinions one is allowed to discuss or express about the game, or that one should not be negative about it -- unless you're Toshimo and then you can do whatever the gently caress you want and be as crude about it as possible, and he'll eat a probe that praises him on the way out. Shortly after that I just quit reading the thread, because interacting with it in any way is tedious. Imagine my surprise when this all goes down and I see that frankly a great deal of people outside of TG have had similar experiences trying to post here or read threads and have simply gotten exhausted by it all and left because certain personalities are allowed and encouraged to run roughshod over discussions and certainly seem to get mod sanction to do so. You have a problem, and people do not feel comfortable expressing concerns. So you get this. Heath fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 02:43
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Should Toshimo be probed or even banned for going that hard in the paint? Yes and either have its merits I think nobody would fault anyone for either. I haven't look at what Toshimo has said recently, but I assume even they would eventually agree to as much. Should Toshimo get a threadban? No. We are talking about a poster, among many, who have posted for more than a decade. Toshimo has been probed like twice a year for 12 years of posting. This isn't prolific or even noteworthy. Dealing with an obvious post more quickly is way preferable to weaponizing petty posting grudges. The thread has been a pleasant place where people can disagree without slap fighting for a while. Why does that need some big overhaul?
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Sep 12, 2023 02:43
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Fajita Queen posted:This is great to hear, I am fully in favor of you guys just carpetbombing TG with probes until posting improves. I am an occasional reader of the TG forum but yeah I have been mostly lurking because of the lack of the above. Please go harder on the buttons from now on.
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Sep 12, 2023 02:44
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Heath posted:I will also vouch for my own part in that Toshimo's posting (though not solely his, mind) drove me away from reading the Commander MTG thread. I would like to add that Heath is bang on the money.
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Sep 12, 2023 02:44
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Sickening posted:Should Toshimo be probed or even banned for going that hard in the paint? Yes and either have its merits I think nobody would fault anyone for either. I haven't look at what Toshimo has said recently, but I assume even they would eventually agree to as much. Not an emptyquote, what the hell is this nonsense we're seeing here? This is a problem solvable by a 7 to 30 day probe, what in tarnation is this nonsense about carpet bombing probes, or other inane bs? StratGoatCom fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 02:48
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Sickening posted:Dealing with an obvious post more quickly is way preferable to weaponizing petty posting grudges. The thread has been a pleasant place where people can disagree without slap fighting for a while. Why does that need some big overhaul? It took specifically mod intervention to get people to stop weaponizing their grudges at every opportunity, and it seems like there's appetite to further clamp down on some of the aggro posting that's still around so let's do it. StratGoatCom posted:Not an emptyquote, what the hell is this nonsense we're seeing here? This is a problem solvable by a 7 to 30 day probe, what in tarnation is this nonsense about carpet bombing probes, or other inane bs? Probably something to do with people in this very thread saying they won't post in threads in TG because the posting is too aggressive ilmucche fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 02:54
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Man, either the threads I IK are too mellow, or I'm just not reading the right threads. Or maybe people are all quaking in fear of me. Idk.
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Sep 12, 2023 02:56
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dwarf74 posted:Man, either the threads I IK are too mellow, or I'm just not reading the right threads. No one crosses a dwarf.
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Sep 12, 2023 02:57
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my very first post in any mtg related thread was when I was just starting to play MTG and build my own deck. I asked for advice and toshimo told me I was a loving idiot lol the other MTG thread problem children have all either left or grown up. I think we can put this whole drama to rest if we just ban toshimo and move on with our lives.
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Sep 12, 2023 03:00
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dwarf74 posted:Man, either the threads I IK are too mellow, or I'm just not reading the right threads. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCeobgSWJHk
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Sep 12, 2023 03:00
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Then threadban him from magic, because he's generally either chill or appropriate elsewhere if it's not something solvable by a week to month off.
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Sep 12, 2023 03:07
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Typically, the number gets longer the more times you get dinged for the same thing
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Sep 12, 2023 03:13
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Sickening posted:Should Toshimo get a threadban? No. We are talking about a poster, among many, who have posted for more than a decade. Toshimo has been probed like twice a year for 12 years of posting. This isn't prolific or even noteworthy. He has been probed 10 times in the last 2 years. There needs to be some escalation. Being an rear end in a top hat for a decade doesn’t entitle you to carry on that way. Heath posted:I will also vouch for my own part in that Toshimo's posting (though not solely his, mind) drove me away from reading the Commander MTG thread. This post is absolutely dead on and very well written.
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Sep 12, 2023 03:51
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Heath posted:1) "The more I've thought about this, the less I'm willing to let it slide." Frankly, Toshimo's post was, to my eyes, plainly in bad taste at best, and in my opinion, loving ghoulish. And the only reason I was aware of it is because I happened to look at the LC, see that Toshimo got probed yet again for yet another lovely Magic post, except this time it went beyond being merely aggro and crossed the line into being actively a hateful thing to say about someone who just literally died of literal cancer, over a literal card game for literal children. Dressing it up in the idea of some kind of labor solidarity thing is, baseline, cynical bullshit. I would have sent him to the shadow realm before I even hit the end of that post, let alone the insane "good riddance." Framboise did not have that kind of immediate reaction. He needed to think about it. That demonstrates a lack of judgment, not an abundance of it. The fact that Leperflesh and Framboise agrees that Toshimo was right and fine in that post right up until the "Good riddance." line is why I don't exactly have a lot of faith that things will get better outside of Antivehicular being better at the job. Or the explanation that 'being mean' is not enough to get long punishments on SA, when we've had people permabanned in the past year for being 'mean'. Might want to ask Elentor if being mean is unpunishable. I mean, the implication that I've gotten isn't that things haven't gotten better, but that Framboise preferred not to do anything because they didn't really want the gig to begin with, and that Leperflesh really isn't into the whole 'probating' thing, because according to them, they don't think their probations would be accepted. Which I don't buy. Also, just to make clear: Your post is extremely correct.
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Sep 12, 2023 04:04
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I think we have a resolution then, ban Toshimo from posting about Magic
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Sep 12, 2023 04:06
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LeafHouse posted:He has been probed 10 times in the last 2 years. There needs to be some escalation. Being an rear end in a top hat for a decade doesn’t entitle you to carry on that way. What you are saying is true. What is also true is that the thread you are advocating for is a thread where you yourself wouldnt' be welcome. You do understand that right? Why worry about probes in bulk when you can get a big doozy all at once? All I am saying is are one faster probe, one less description leper comment, and one longer after-the-fact probe away from this being handled about as reasonable as we can expect from any forum.
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Sep 12, 2023 04:11
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Sickening posted:Should Toshimo be probed or even banned for going that hard in the paint? Yes and either have its merits I think nobody would fault anyone for either. I haven't look at what Toshimo has said recently, but I assume even they would eventually agree to as much.
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Sep 12, 2023 04:11
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I used to have like half the MTG thread on ignore because that was the only way the thread was readable. Basically all of those posters have either chilled out enough that I've taken them off the list or stopped posting, but Toshimo is still regularly an insanely aggro rear end in a top hat. Remembering where the thread was, I'm not sure if where it is now is where we want it to be or not, or how much people are scared away by its reputation / past experiences, but long probes / bans for egregiously and/or consistently lovely posting can only be beneficial in either case.
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Sep 12, 2023 04:13
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It's usually a pretty relaxed thread lately but toshimo's post was him basically shooting a flare gun into the air in the middle of a crowd to remind you that oh yeah, he's still here, and oh yeah, he still sucks, and maybe it's time we do something about it
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Sep 12, 2023 04:20
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Sickening posted:Should Toshimo get a threadban? No. We are talking about a poster, among many, who have posted for more than a decade. Toshimo has been probed like twice a year for 12 years of posting. This isn't prolific or even noteworthy. Bad posters don't become untouchable institutions just by being bad long enough, especially when they've clearly been probed less than their posting deserves in that time. I don't care about history, I care about the present, and it's rancid.
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Sep 12, 2023 04:22
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Captain Invictus posted:I've said my piece but I do think it's pretty funny that it took this long for literally ANYONE to come to toshimo's defense Yall posting so bad and getting so wild that I had to advocate for toshimo and Leperflesh in the same breath and it feels utterly disgusting. Like I almost complemented on ilmucche turning into a decent poster for gods sake. I think the mods/ik did this one fine. Antivehicular posted:Bad posters don't become untouchable institutions just by being bad long enough, especially when they've clearly been probed less than their posting deserves in that time. I don't care about history, I care about the present, and it's rancid. They don't. And maybe if the poster in question got a week like probe for cheering the death of someone it would have felt fine and good and we could have moved on to talking about sacred basic lands art. Sickening fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 04:25
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TheKingofSprings posted:I think we have a resolution then, ban Toshimo from posting about Magic
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Sep 12, 2023 04:28
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Sickening posted:Yall posting so bad and getting so wild that I had to advocate for toshimo and Leperflesh in the same breath and it feels utterly disgusting. Like I almost complemented on ilmucche turning into a decent poster for gods sake. people like Pablo nergigante and Heath, cool posters, are making heartfelt statements about why they don't feel comfortable posting in the mtg thread, and meanwhile toshimo has...you, just coming in to drool out a "lol no" in response. Begone
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Sep 12, 2023 04:47
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I think the fact that there’s a bunch of posters coming out of the woodwork saying they don’t feel comfortable posting in the Magic threads is enough to say Toshimo is having a chilling effect on participation at this point.
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Sep 12, 2023 04:51
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To clarify, I only posted in the EDH thread, not the main MTG thread. Commander is all I play.
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Sep 12, 2023 05:02
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Sickening posted:Yall posting so bad and getting so wild that I had to advocate for toshimo and Leperflesh in the same breath and it feels utterly disgusting. Like I almost complemented on ilmucche turning into a decent poster for gods sake. On one hand, I agree that the basic thrust of what the mods did was fine. It could have been phrased better, but "I can agree that the dead man did some disagreeable things, but have some loving tact" is a fine reason for a probation and a day is as effective a period as any when you have someone with as long a history as Toshimo. On the other hand, would a week off actually make Toshimo's posting in the MtG thread better? I'm usually fine with his posting elsewhere in TG in that "he's an rear end in a top hat, but he isn't wrong" way, but the thread regulars have clearly gotten sick of him consistently posting like an rear end in a top hat for as long as he has, it's poisoning the thread's vibes, and it's getting this much of a reaction because the subforum in general is begging for more proactive moderation. If Toshimo gets threadbanned, the worst thing that will happen is we'll all have to turn to the Industry thread to see him being harsh-but-fair about whatever is currently happening in MtG news today.
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Sep 12, 2023 05:04
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Captain Invictus posted:absolutely not. You, especially you, don't get to waltz in and say "you all post bad" unquantified while simultaneously stepping to the plate for toshimo. Seriously lol I was very hesitant to post ITT exactly because of this sort of sentiment - what started off as a conversation about the standards and expectations of modding a specific sub-forum, as well as the dynamics of feedback and transparency between mods and the general posting populace has quickly diverged into singling out specific posters to either play favorites or vilify them depending on your perspective. I agree that SA in general has more than our fair share of toxic personalities that make certain threads or subforums not very fun to engage in, but if all this boils down to is who can make the case for their True Posting Enemies to eat more stringent probes or bans then that doesn't really change anything does it. Toshimo said a hosed up thing which just to be clear I am not defending. Toshimo regularly says hosed up things, either for the shock value or because they have odious beliefs or both. Who the gently caress knows. Framboise did the right thing in asking for a 24 hour probation, however they also obviously hosed up because of the rationale attached to it plus the delayed response (whether that was because of administrative bottlenecks or time spent deliberating) put off a lot of people - specifically because the offender was Toshimo. I don't think Framboise (or Leperflesh) deserves to be excoriated for not making the snap judgment that the crowd expected, or not knowing how many people felt so negatively about one particular poster. They have both clearly engaged in good faith here to try and gain a better understanding of the reaction from the broader community in TG and figure out where/how to course correct. Seems like the overall thrust is that TG in particular could benefit from more proactive or at least attentive moderation to support the upward trend in the general discourse and/or community. Can't speak for everybody but the MTG thread has gotten way better in the past year or two, in part thanks to Leperflesh's engagement there so it is possible. There are always going to be lovely posters - I've had MTG thread regulars muted for years and I'm sure I'm on plenty of mute lists. Singling out one person as the reason why we can't have nice things feels like a cop out and unproductive to boot. Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 05:24
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Captain Invictus posted:absolutely not. You, especially you, don't get to waltz in and say "you all post bad" unquantified while simultaneously stepping to the plate for toshimo. Seriously lol Disagreeing with you also doesn't give you license to go all aggro either. I took no issue with either of these posters. I haven't said their experiences weren't valid and I am sure they are. Advocating than less than the maximum punishment doesn't make me against Pablo and Heath. You are the one calling the thread to post here. Did you only want people to post who agreed with you? 
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Sep 12, 2023 05:24
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What did the dead guy do that was so disagreeable actually, this is something I have not seen anyone elaborating on. Were they a huge sex creep? Did they organize harassment campaigns? Did they do a murder-suicide? My bar for "this person in the tabletop game industry did some heinous poo poo" is set around those levels so if this is just a case of "well they were an influencer and did influencer things" then that's really going to make this whole "he's an rear end in a top hat but he's right damnit" thing seem a lot sillier.
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Sep 12, 2023 05:26
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Kai Tave posted:What did the dead guy do that was so disagreeable actually, this is something I have not seen anyone elaborating on. Were they a huge sex creep? Did they organize harassment campaigns? Did they do a murder-suicide? My bar for "this person in the tabletop game industry did some heinous poo poo" is set around those levels so if this is just a case of "well they were an influencer and did influencer things" then that's really going to make this whole "he's an rear end in a top hat but he's right damnit" thing seem a lot sillier. I think he ran some kind of volunteer based competitive league or something?
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Sep 12, 2023 05:32
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Yeah, I'd like to know that too, because my knowledge of Sheldon doesn't belie any specific thing that he did outside of rules opinions, which are, of course, a matter of opinion. Also, I don't think Toshimo deserves another probe or a longer one. None of those are productive and the time has passed for when it would be relevant anyway. My criticism is about the kind of culture that is allowed to propagate because of the generally aggressive tone which posters like him bring to the place. If posters who are prominent in the thread are aggressive it is difficult not to respond in kind. I am not convinced that threadbans necessarily help in that regard either
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Sep 12, 2023 05:32
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ItohRespectArmy posted:I think he ran some kind of volunteer based competitive league or something? thank god this sick freak is off the streets
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Sep 12, 2023 05:47
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Kai Tave posted:What did the dead guy do that was so disagreeable actually, this is something I have not seen anyone elaborating on. Were they a huge sex creep? Did they organize harassment campaigns? Did they do a murder-suicide? My bar for "this person in the tabletop game industry did some heinous poo poo" is set around those levels so if this is just a case of "well they were an influencer and did influencer things" then that's really going to make this whole "he's an rear end in a top hat but he's right damnit" thing seem a lot sillier. Sheldon Menery was the guy who formalized Elder Dragon Highlander rules for Magic into the Commander fan ruleset. He was previously a Magic judge and cultivated himself into an influencer and oversaw the Commander Rules Committee. Commander's now overtaken every other format for Magic to be the most widely played. He just died after a 7 year battle with cancer. I don't know what the personal beefs are with him in this case? Sounds like it's either related to his affiliation with Magic judging (a usually unpaid bit of corporate labor) or the way the Commander format and ban list was cultivated?
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Sep 12, 2023 05:50
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I'm not sure if this board has more broken stairs type posters than your average sa forum but I'm in support of the moderation team taking a harder stance than "well, we don't wanna"
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Sep 12, 2023 06:05
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Sickening posted:Disagreeing with you also doesn't give you license to go all aggro either. I took no issue with either of these posters. I haven't said their experiences weren't valid and I am sure they are. Advocating than less than the maximum punishment doesn't make me against Pablo and Heath. Kai Tave posted:What did the dead guy do that was so disagreeable actually, this is something I have not seen anyone elaborating on. Were they a huge sex creep? Did they organize harassment campaigns? Did they do a murder-suicide? My bar for "this person in the tabletop game industry did some heinous poo poo" is set around those levels so if this is just a case of "well they were an influencer and did influencer things" then that's really going to make this whole "he's an rear end in a top hat but he's right damnit" thing seem a lot sillier.
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Sep 12, 2023 06:30
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ItohRespectArmy posted:I think he ran some kind of volunteer based competitive league or something? It was literally this, which is why it was apparently fine to go on a grudge-fuelled screed about him the moment it was learned he was dead.
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Sep 12, 2023 07:25
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