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So what I'm taking away from this is that "Toshimo is an rear end in a top hat but he isn't wrong" is, in fact, wrong, and probably should not be considered a great defense of his posting habits.
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Sep 12, 2023 07:29
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Kai Tave posted:So what I'm taking away from this is that "Toshimo is an rear end in a top hat but he isn't wrong" is, in fact, wrong, and probably should not be considered a great defense of his posting habits.  You might be onto something, there!
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Sep 12, 2023 07:36
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Nuns with Guns posted:Sheldon Menery was the guy who formalized Elder Dragon Highlander rules for Magic into the Commander fan ruleset. He was previously a Magic judge and cultivated himself into an influencer and oversaw the Commander Rules Committee. Commander's now overtaken every other format for Magic to be the most widely played. He just died after a 7 year battle with cancer. I don't know what the personal beefs are with him in this case? Sounds like it's either related to his affiliation with Magic judging (a usually unpaid bit of corporate labor) or the way the Commander format and ban list was cultivated? The accusation is that he worked as a volunteer, which means he is a class traitor and guilty of participating in wage suppression. Or something. I do not know. This is definitely an appropriate thing to say, especially in a thread about a trading card game.
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Sep 12, 2023 08:15
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Sickening posted:Yall posting so bad and getting so wild that I had to advocate for toshimo and Leperflesh in the same breath and it feels utterly disgusting. Like I almost complemented on ilmucche turning into a decent poster for gods sake. Yeah if sickening and I can not be at each other's throats when they ask specifically about identifying a potential counterfeit they received we're in a much better place lol. Sickening posted:You are the one calling the thread to post here. Did you only want people to post who agreed with you? Smugposting like this doesn't help though. ilmucche fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 08:36
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I don't think it's profitable for this thread to be a public trial for another goon. No one wants to have a bunch of strangers sit at home and dissect their perception of your beliefs, rummaging through your post history to theorize that you are in fact engaging in a ex post facto pro-labor canard to justify your feud over a card game. I don't think any poster, no matter how bad, should be subjected to that. Instead, they should just get probed. Probes with adequate length and dispassionate explanations should leave no confusion as to the environment we're attempting to foster.
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Sep 12, 2023 09:57
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The question initially seemed to be should that post cost  to make, and the general consensus seems to be yes? But it's after the fact so whatever.But it's opened up a discussion on how people post in TG/the mtg thread in general and that seems like a fair discussion to have. The mtg thread, even if it's better now, still has a bunch of unnecessary aggression in it.
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Sep 12, 2023 10:14
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I don't post much in the MTG thread but I've read it almost every day for the past year or so and I think it's time to drop the whole 'the MTG thread is so toxic it needs special consideration' thing. 99% of the posts are fine, there are a couple of people who have/had a bizarrely aggro tone but that's exclusively an individual poster problem, nothing to do with the topic or even the general community of posters in the thread. I think the original probe under discussion here was correct, and I think Framboise's mistake was simply trying to offer a conciliatory air to something that didn't need editorialising. I think the general 'he's an rear end in a top hat, but man he's just right a lot of the time' stuff shows how easy it is to craft vindictive yelling posts that people let you off the hook for if you include an irrelevant nugget of truth. It feels like the point isn't to be correct, it's to get away with being an aggro rear end in a top hat by stapling a justification to your message (and it's not just one person who does this, this is a forum-wide issue). Does the Magic thread need special moderation? No. Do people need to be discouraged from hotheaded angryposting in it? Yes, but no more than anywhere else. Just probe people for it. Escalate the punishment if they don't change course. Give credit for time spent not being an rear end in a top hat. Don't be afraid to ruffle their feathers or those of their posting buddies. There will always be people who chafe against authority and will conjure up the most bad faith readings of your actions possible, by all means be patient with them but at the end of the day if they're making the forum experience suck you are allowed to use the Shut The gently caress Up buttons.
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Sep 12, 2023 11:14
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Personally if someone dies and the worst crime they committed was "put cards i like on a banlist" they probably dont need to be pillioried in death, and if someone does that they should be banned
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Sep 12, 2023 11:26
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Vando posted:Does the Magic thread need special moderation? No. Do people need to be discouraged from hotheaded angryposting in it? Yes, but no more than anywhere else. Just probe people for it. Escalate the punishment if they don't change course. Give credit for time spent not being an rear end in a top hat. Don't be afraid to ruffle their feathers or those of their posting buddies. There will always be people who chafe against authority and will conjure up the most bad faith readings of your actions possible, by all means be patient with them but at the end of the day if they're making the forum experience suck you are allowed to use the Shut The gently caress Up buttons. there's also the report button, but there's definitely posts in the thread that don't go hard enough to be reported but definitely toss in some aggro/sniping just for kicks. mandatory lesbian posted:Personally if someone dies and the worst crime they committed was "put cards i like on a banlist" they probably dont need to be pillioried in death, and if someone does that they should be banned it was a pretty gross post that should've cost the ten bucks
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Sep 12, 2023 11:37
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I agree with others that the Magic thread has improved a lot over the last few years, but it’s still more aggro than any other thread I read outside the politics forums. Largely agree that a special moderation operation is not needed, just need to crack down on people being lovely for no reason which, again, still happens even if it’s not as commonplace as it used to be. Which really shouldn’t be all that hard! Just use them buttons. What’s a reason to be lovely? I don’t know. I do know this is a comedy forum, and sometimes people try to be funny by going after one another, especially when someone says something dumb or terrible in their own right. “Happiness is mandatory” shouldn’t be a rule, but also if you’re gonna be a dick then it’d better be either pretty funny (and not too pointed, honestly) or you better be righteous in your indignation. The probe that has been discussed doesn’t fit either of those criteria.
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Sep 12, 2023 12:09
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I guess maybe the issue is people have become too used to the thread having aggro people in it so don't report their posts anymore? If so I think everyone knows what to do about that.
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Sep 12, 2023 12:12
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Vando posted:I guess maybe the issue is people have become too used to the thread having aggro people in it so don't report their posts anymore? If so I think everyone knows what to do about that. The difficulty comes in setting the line. It can't really be done without pointing at specific posts, but pointing at specific posts will set those posters off because they don't see their shirt behaviour as problematic
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Sep 12, 2023 12:42
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I think toning down the level of aggro in TG is a good thing.
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Sep 12, 2023 12:45
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The problem I think is that a lot of the hostile posts in TG don't individually rise to the level of even a sixer, they just cumulatively drive so much air out of the room and make discussion suck for people who aren't on the same "side" as the people being hostile. So reporting an individual post gets that post seen and nothing else happens.
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Sep 12, 2023 13:22
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Fajita Queen posted:The problem I think is that a lot of the hostile posts in TG don't individually rise to the level of even a sixer, they just cumulatively drive so much air out of the room and make discussion suck for people who aren't on the same "side" as the people being hostile. So reporting an individual post gets that post seen and nothing else happens. Conversely, I've also had problems where the moderation wasn't strict enough about objectively bad opinions that could actually hurt the play experience of others. Rutibex was a really big problem here, I have probes for shouting him down and being "aggro" when the mods weren't doing poo poo to shut him up when he was leading people to waste money/do stuff that was completely wrong in every sense for the games he talked about. Opinions are one thing but I wish the mods were a bit more willing to lay down the law about "hey, this person is genuinely loving stupid and has been banned from many other goon spaces for being stupid and really does need shouting down."
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Sep 12, 2023 13:28
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Fajita Queen posted:The problem I think is that a lot of the hostile posts in TG don't individually rise to the level of even a sixer, they just cumulatively drive so much air out of the room and make discussion suck for people who aren't on the same "side" as the people being hostile. So reporting an individual post gets that post seen and nothing else happens. But they do though. Or they would if an outsider came and looked at it. We're just little frogs in our boiling pot where we've raised the floor on what is actionable that we've created the dumbest baseline.
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Sep 12, 2023 13:33
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HootTheOwl posted:But they do though.
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Sep 12, 2023 13:58
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Simply Simon posted:It's like there's a constant blood moon over the thread, basically Even the metaphorical blood moon needs banning. Wow, it's awful in all ways!
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Sep 12, 2023 14:00
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Sep 12, 2023 14:03
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Fajita Queen posted:The problem I think is that a lot of the hostile posts in TG don't individually rise to the level of even a sixer, they just cumulatively drive so much air out of the room and make discussion suck for people who aren't on the same "side" as the people being hostile. So reporting an individual post gets that post seen and nothing else happens. honestly i dont really agree with more "ramps" or threadbans or whatever except in really bad cases (which- this one probably was), i think literally just throwing down six-hour probations more often when someone is being aggressive, slapfighting, or making bad posts helps a lot the best thing about them is they let people cool down. its rare that i see someone in a flamewar, get a sixer, and go right back to flipping out like nothing happened
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Sep 12, 2023 14:12
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Fajita Queen posted:The problem I think is that a lot of the hostile posts in TG don't individually rise to the level of even a sixer, they just cumulatively drive so much air out of the room and make discussion suck for people who aren't on the same "side" as the people being hostile. So reporting an individual post gets that post seen and nothing else happens. HootTheOwl posted:But they do though. these are both on the money. the thread has festered to the point where it's fine to tack on an insult in any random discussion post.
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Sep 12, 2023 14:20
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unfortunately nothing will be changing, as the mods failed the basic test of "what should we do with the angry guy no one likes" and seem to think posting and moderating is high stakes and must be done very carefully. it is fitting that the mods of TG don't know how to deal with the player at the table no one likes. nerd fallacies or w/e gonna go calm down by rewatching the film "Crazy Rich Asians" (do NOT tell toshrino)
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Sep 12, 2023 14:27
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Captain Invictus posted:my suggestion was that toshimo should just be threadbanned from the mtg thread, but I was rebuked. this pussyfooting around a poster like toshimo has, demonstrably, not done anything to stop them being who they are. multiple people, most prominently pablo nergigante, have said they stopped reading the mtg thread because of crazy aggro posters like toshimo, and I would trade toshimo for pablo in a loving heartbeat pretty much all of this. i used to lurk the mtg thread but posters like toshimo and the stuff they were doing just made it not worth the hassle, and seeing them get that wording in a probe is pretty loving lol Framboise posted:I didn't even know until now that I was the subject of yet another thread until now, so that's fun. i know next to nothing about you, but when i read that probe message it read as tho you were gently disagreeing with them but didn't want to come off as too harsh on a person who was celebrating the death of someone who just died. so no, i (and other people) weren't reading it in an uncharitable light, its how your wording came off. Mekchu fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 14:35
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Mekchu posted:pretty much all of this. i used to lurk the mtg thread but posters like toshimo and the stuff they were doing just made it not worth the hassle, and seeing them get that wording in a probe is pretty loving lol I'm telling you, it is an insane thing people do where it's like they have to include this "he's an rear end in a top hat but he's just so drat right" clause. People have done it unironically in this very thread! Multiple times in one post even!
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Sep 12, 2023 15:07
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Vando posted:I guess maybe the issue is people have become too used to the thread having aggro people in it so don't report their posts anymore? If so I think everyone knows what to do about that. I mean people have outright said why they stopped reporting posts, it's because they gave up on the mods doing anything and either became resigned to the lovely posting or left. I'm not saying mods should be all Machiavellian feared-not-loved but the fact that they are so terrified of the backlash to punishing a prominent poster that they have to give them a big sloppy toppy "your only crime is being too righteous" on the way out is dysfunctional.
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Sep 12, 2023 15:14
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just because you can be an rear end in a top hat doesn't mean you should. many people struggle with this concept
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Sep 12, 2023 15:15
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Feels Villeneuve posted:honestly i dont really agree with more "ramps" or threadbans or whatever except in really bad cases (which- this one probably was), i think literally just throwing down six-hour probations more often when someone is being aggressive, slapfighting, or making bad posts helps a lot as a former ik, yes. this is all correct. its not a hard thing to do and its a 6er, nobody will freak out over it, and if they do they probably will eat a longer probe for their aggro/lovely behavior once they come back.
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Sep 12, 2023 15:17
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Heath posted:I'm telling you, it is an insane thing people do where it's like they have to include this "he's an rear end in a top hat but he's just so drat right" clause. People have done it unironically in this very thread! Multiple times in one post even! this is not a problem exclusive to TG, or SA, but if there's one thing i really hate, it's when people use the guise of progressive politics to post misanthropic poo poo that would otherwise get slapped. like some people, who will go unnamed were like "wow, looks like that post showed too much class consciousness for the whiners" or some poo poo. no!!! this problem has started to get clamped down on elsewhere on the forums (see: people getting banned for lolling at rando twitter posters dying at covid, or whatever) but it's something which frequently pops up, especially in forums like TG where the political aspect of a fandom/hobby does get discussed often. it is entirely possible to couch toxic poo poo in progressive language, and slapping posts like that is not a referendum on those politics, and should not be perceived as that
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Sep 12, 2023 15:18
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Mekchu posted:its a 6er, nobody will freak out over it
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Sep 12, 2023 15:25
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Magnetic North posted:I don't think it's profitable for this thread to be a public trial for another goon. No one wants to have a bunch of strangers sit at home and dissect their perception of your beliefs, rummaging through your post history to theorize that you are in fact engaging in a ex post facto pro-labor canard to justify your feud over a card game. I don't think any poster, no matter how bad, should be subjected to that. Instead, they should just get probed. Probes with adequate length and dispassionate explanations should leave no confusion as to the environment we're attempting to foster. Normally I'd agree with you, but when a dude who's already the Guy Nobody Wants At Their Table posts a vile 'lol fucker's dead, hooray' post about a dude who's worst documented sin is giving too much of his life to a corporate-profited hobby for free (in TradGames, no less) and when the thread starts thrashing him for it, the mod response is written out as 'I feel you bro, but hoes mad so I need to throw you a sixer' then the doors are absolutely open to roast that fucker AND the mod response to him.
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Sep 12, 2023 15:51
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Captain Invictus posted:this is not true lol that's why i added the next bit about if they do then you just hit them again.
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Sep 12, 2023 15:55
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Arivia posted:Conversely, I've also had problems where the moderation wasn't strict enough about objectively bad opinions that could actually hurt the play experience of others. Rutibex was a really big problem here, I have probes for shouting him down and being "aggro" when the mods weren't doing poo poo to shut him up when he was leading people to waste money/do stuff that was completely wrong in every sense for the games he talked about. Opinions are one thing but I wish the mods were a bit more willing to lay down the law about "hey, this person is genuinely loving stupid and has been banned from many other goon spaces for being stupid and really does need shouting down." On the other hand, people not agreeing with your forgotten realms takes are not objectively bad, so I'm fine with the mod team telling people to chill out.
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Sep 12, 2023 16:13
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Capfalcon posted:On the other hand, people not agreeing with your forgotten realms takes are not objectively bad, so I'm fine with the mod team telling people to chill out. I don’t disagree but that’s also not what we’re talking about.
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Sep 12, 2023 16:20
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Arivia posted:Conversely, I've also had problems where the moderation wasn't strict enough about objectively bad opinions that could actually hurt the play experience of others. Rutibex was a really big problem here, I have probes for shouting him down and being "aggro" when the mods weren't doing poo poo to shut him up when he was leading people to waste money/do stuff that was completely wrong in every sense for the games he talked about. Opinions are one thing but I wish the mods were a bit more willing to lay down the law about "hey, this person is genuinely loving stupid and has been banned from many other goon spaces for being stupid and really does need shouting down." You, specifically, are one of the many reasons I dont post in this forum anymore. You dont get to act like saner moderation wouldnt toss your rancid rear end out at the first opportunity.
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Sep 12, 2023 16:57
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Control Volume posted:You, specifically, are one of the many reasons I dont post in this forum anymore. You dont get to act like saner moderation wouldnt toss your rancid rear end out at the first opportunity. But again, maybe I'm just in the kinder, gentler threads. Edit -  oops
dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 17:15
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The whole idea of "well, aggroposting should be allowed if you're Correct" is exactly why this poo poo happens in the first place.
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Sep 12, 2023 17:25
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Sickening posted:Should Toshimo be probed or even banned for going that hard in the paint? Yes and either have its merits I think nobody would fault anyone for either. I haven't look at what Toshimo has said recently, but I assume even they would eventually agree to as much. I don't think the specifics regarding Toshimo are at this point useful to discuss in the feedback thread, and doing so just amplifies the idea that it's about personal grudges and that this specific case is anything beyond a last-straw incident that reflects more broadly on TG moderation and a culture that's protecting toxicity and driving away participants. But I do want to engage in a general sense what I think are some common geek social fallacies and make an argument that, yes, TG needs a rethink in how the mods operate and needs to show more willingness to ban posters with a history of making GBS threads up threads without consideration for the number of total contributions they've made. Again, my addressing Sickening's claims above have nothing to do with Toshimo's specific case. I don't follow the MTG thread and I don't want to spend an hour doing research to make claims which I think are true in a general sense regardless of whether they do or do not apply in this specific case. And I don't see that as useful, anyway. On this occasion, and several previous ones, we've had people post here that they either lurk or left TG because of the degree to which bullying and abusive behavior exist within this forum. For myself, I can say this is the only part of SA I frequent where I will make a post and then skip reading the thread for up to a week, because I know several posters ITT might opt to respond in their unique ways and that will result in, at minimum, stress for me, and can result in a thread derail if I respond, and after multiple attempts to navigate such experiences I've concluded that it's pointless to ever engage or respond to those posters and I should wait until things go stale so that I feel no urge to respond. Usually, nobody responds to my posts and I took my break for no reason. But I suggest that it is a very bad sign for the health of this subcommunity that I feel the need to do this when posting here, and that so many other members of the community are being driven away or into silence by a small subset of posters in specific subforums. (Dwarf, I don't recall ever seeing any of the posters I have on my mental list showing up in the Gloomhaven/Frosthaven thread, though I can't speak for your others.) What's more, I bet most TG regulars could independently list 3-4 posters they think are toxic or bullying but who are very active in TG, and there'd be a lot of agreement on the names, especially if you differentiate between idle trolls and the active bullies. (We might disagree on where to draw that line, I suppose.) There's two, related, social fallacies at work here. The first is that amount of time within a community in some way mitigates toxic behavior or acts as a storehouse of "credit" that means the posters who have been here the longest deserve their bad behavior to receive more tolerance. That's completely false. An example would be a gaming society with that guy who has "issues" with women. Early in gaming, groups were overwhelmingly male, so most likely that kind of toxicity would have been tolerated, because men in their teens and twenties aren't always good about ejecting bullies and because while plenty of other members might have issues, nobody is being directly attacked unless they push back against the toxic behavior. So that one guy can silence new members who push back against the way he talks about women, because he was a co-founder and he's done so much and this other guy just showed up last week. He can use that "credit" to silence complaints, and after that, well, nobody is actually complaining, so he gets to stay. Then women interested in gaming show up to meetings. Most don't stay long. And because they left, they aren't there to complain about the bullying. They were new, anyway, and "obviously not serious gamers" if they left so quickly. Besides, the group used to be all men and that was normal, so there's nothing abnormal about it still being all men. That's just how things are. And, barring a huge and ugly fight or some action that's obviously beyond the pale (assault, say), the toxic guy's behavior helps to enforce the kind of group most likely to tolerate his behavior. Because, hey, that's just Gary, he's like that, he's been here for years, you get used to him. Whereas he's done incalculable damage to the group by driving off a huge number of probably non-toxic members who couldn't stand him. The second fallacy is to give credit for contributions to the community. And I think several of the more toxic posters in this community can rely on their non-toxic contributions to shield them from the consequences of their boundary-crossing. Because look at what the community would have lost had they not been around. But that's another falsehood: if one toxic poster contributed 5% of the total high-effort posts to TG, but drove away several hundred people over a decade from being TG posters, then they are responsible for the loss of every contribution those several hundred people might have made. Maybe most wouldn't have contributed much; maybe a few would themselves have been bullies and made the community worse. But if it's a choice between one poster making two great posts on Call of Cthulhu, or two posters making one great post each on Call of Cthulhu, I'd rather have the two posters, because they'll offer different perspectives and I'll learn more, but also because if neither of the two are bullies and the one poster is, the community is better with the two than with the one. For that matter, being the one poster who gets to make all the quality posts on something is a goal of some geek bullies, because it means anybody else's opinion is proven to be wrong. That's bad in many ways for TG. As for the grudges thing, when I was still thinking about this case as about Toshimo specifically and not about moderation in TG more generally, I had the same impression: look, a bunch of posters who don't get along with Toshimo are going after him while he's probated to try to get rid of him. But when I started thinking in terms of the general circumstances and not the specific, I saw that this wasn't a useful approach. Say I start posting somewhere on SA. I make a big effort-post initial contribution. Someone thanks me and amplifies what I just said. Someone else quotes the whole post and responds "You're an idiot." Maybe they add one more sentence to refute my post. The difference is obvious. How do I respond to the second poster? Maybe I just quit the thread. Maybe I argue back or get upset. If I stick around, I'm not going to be happy, and I'm going to be specifically unhappy at the person who responded like that. A few months later, I post again, and the same poster mocks what I wrote. Repeat three or four times; assume that at least some of the time, I argue back. Well, now, we're rivals, or we have grudges against each other, and I might be expected to argue that he should be banned from the thread (or the forum) and somebody else could reasonably say "well, Narsham and (X) hate each other, they're always arguing ITT." But of course if a bully picks on someone, and that someone doesn't back down or go away, that's a grudgin'! What matters is identifying the toxic or bullying posters, and these posters will obviously create grudges, because they are toxic and bullying. Mods can certainly consider "who started it," but if a Jewish poster on a forum complains about being constantly harassed by a Neo-Nazi poster, and the Neo-Nazi responds "he just has a grudge against me," I'd think that absent some exceptional set of circumstances, it's safe enough to think the Neo-Nazi should be the one ejected, and maybe he shouldn't have been left around as long as he was to begin with. "He argued back" is not a defense. Nor do I think the rap sheet is dispositive. I've reported one post in all my time here, and never reported someone for being rude or abusive or dismissive to me, personally, because "I can handle it." I can think of several posters in TG who follow a predictable pattern of just crossing the boundary, and then backing off if they receive push-back, but who will predictably cross the boundary again and again. That isn't someone learning to be a better poster, it's someone calculating how much they can get away with and constantly testing to maximize the level of being a jerk they can manage without punishment. If the mods reward that behavior, it will continue forever. Other posters seem to be mood-dependent: they will explode unpredictably, usually pretty far past the boundary, but they're "good contributors" the rest of the time and so can expect nothing past a probe, because it happens sometimes and they're getting the benefit of the doubt... again and again and again. Unsuccessful bullies go too far and get ejected from communities, so you can expect the successful ones to exhibit behaviors that allow people to keep extending them chances. If someone hasn't learned a lesson after months of trying, maybe they don't actually care to. I don't know the IKs very well, but all the TG mods and admins have impressed me, both here and when I encounter them in other SA spaces, with having good and considered judgment. I think you all need to exercise that good judgment more frequently and with less tolerance for bullshit. It's one thing to say "gee, this poster is usually really mild-mannered, something must have pissed them off, here's a cool-down sixer" and another to say "time to cool down this poster who runs hot all the time but let's stick with a sixer because maybe this is the year they change." This is a web forum, not loving Minesweeper. You need to disarm the explosives, not dance around them. Go to a three strikes policy, and start banning people. If we lose a few "borderline toxic" posters, isn't that better than all the potential good community members driven away over the years by people like that? The most careful bullies will have to go underground if they want to stay, and the others will either correct themselves or be gone. The low-key troublemakers will opt for discretion. The place will be nicer for everyone here, and more welcoming to those who might want to join in the future.
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Sep 12, 2023 17:28
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Panzeh posted:The whole idea of "well, aggroposting should be allowed if you're Correct" is exactly why this poo poo happens in the first place. The point I was trying to make is that if moderation was stiffer, you wouldn’t need to back up a correct opinion with aggroposting. And at the time I was doing it, Jeffrey was explicitly saying that’s how posters should treat each other on the forums. dwarf74 posted:Really? I think she has vastly improved her posting and reduced her online aggro levels over the last few years. And thank you, I have been trying. Arivia fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 17:29
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Panzeh posted:The whole idea of "well, aggroposting should be allowed if you're Correct" is exactly why this poo poo happens in the first place. some of the most toxic posting is "correct". i think because some of the worst toxic behavior in discussion forums comes when someone's aggression comes from an attitude of moral justification. basically, it's much easier to say incredibly toxic and unacceptable things to someone if you've got the idea that they're a nazi or something, even if their fundamental crime is "roots for the New England Patriots", as an example (this is something I have actually seen, though obviously not in TG) that, and sometimes i think people are hesitant to hit posts which are "correct", though this seems to have been changing for the better recently. Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 17:30
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| # ? May 31, 2024 18:20 |
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Panzeh posted:The whole idea of "well, aggroposting should be allowed if you're Correct" is exactly why this poo poo happens in the first place. It isn't enough to just be "correct", ignoring that subjective opinions exist, you gotta own your posting enemies by insulting or talking down to them at every opportunity
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Sep 12, 2023 17:33
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