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Acebuckeye13 posted:What even is the list, Megas XLR and... ??? Exo Squad, Symbiotic Titan and maybe Shadow Raiders depending on how you class mecha.
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Sep 11, 2023 10:42
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Not counting Transformers? Or heck, even if you are. Initially wasn't, if I did then the number does skew upward a good amount(I'd say the only outright bad TF series* are Beast Machines, the Netflix trilogy of shows, and maybe Energon) *well at least of the series that had wide releases here in the US Acebuckeye13 posted:What even is the list, Megas XLR and... ??? Well let's see Exosquad definitely counts as good, Sym-Bionic Titan was also pretty good, Big Guy & Rusty was overall decent enough to make the list, Mighty Orbots probably qualifies as well, and if we do count Transformers for this then that's several additional series, and I've heard decent things about Iron Man: Armored Adventures that it probably also makes the list
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Sep 11, 2023 11:48
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Booky posted:new voltron was 8 seasons and 80% of it was pointlessly adding more and more Stuff instead of developing what was already there, tho tbh the later cracks were in it as early as s1 with alluras ai dad or whatever that shows up in ep 1 and then completely vanishes from the plot and chars until its time for him to die 7 eps later is basically the same deal that shiros dead ex gets but even more pointless since its 2 flashbacks Yeah, and they complained they didn't have enough episodes to properly develop everybody so naturally they just added more and more stuff instead of streamlining things.
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Sep 11, 2023 12:51
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Proper economy of narrative and discipline can be a struggle for a lot of writers, and it seems like a lot of them just add on more ~drama~ and twists rather than resolve what they've set up because that takes 
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Sep 11, 2023 16:33
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Holy poo poo I'm reading about the whole deal with Voltron and Shiro's sexuality, straight from the horse's mouth, and it's a loving mess. First the writers, they wanted the character to be gay, and for the character to die. They quickly realised that this was a bad idea, so they decided that they'd find queer representation somewhere else and Shiro would still die because that would be a nice shout out to the original, and they always knew they were going to have to play politics with the producers to get a queer chatacter on the show. Then the marketing people decided that Shiro was too popular, so he'd have to live and be in every episode. So the writers decided he should go back to being queer. They wrote a scene with him and Adam in series 7, which was as early as they were able to get that happening, and the marketing people hated it and told them to turn it platonic and were given specific notes about how the character should be handled (this is as specific as the writers get here). The writers followed instructions, and Season 7 was locked. Season 8 rolls around and is close to being done when suddenly marketing decides that queer characters are hip and in. So they had a choice: they could either regay that scene or have basically no representation full stop -- so they redubbed the scene in Season 7 and added that bit at the end right about when they only had a month's worth of work left on the program. Straight hosed.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:08
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Open Source Idiom posted:Straight hosed. seems like it was gay hosed by the end
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Sep 11, 2023 19:21
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Open Source Idiom posted:Then the marketing people decided that Shiro was too popular, so he'd have to live and be in every episode. So the writers decided he should go back to being queer. They wrote a scene with him and Adam in series 7, which was as early as they were able to get that happening, and the marketing people hated it and told them to turn it platonic and were given specific notes about how the character should be handled (this is as specific as the writers get here). The writers followed instructions, and Season 7 was locked. Season 8 rolls around and is close to being done when suddenly marketing decides that queer characters are hip and in. So they had a choice: they could either regay that scene or have basically no representation full stop -- so they redubbed the scene in Season 7 and added that bit at the end right about when they only had a month's worth of work left on the program. Yeah, not all problems - but certainly some - were the showrunners' own making.
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Sep 11, 2023 20:51
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Open Source Idiom posted:Holy poo poo I'm reading about the whole deal with Voltron and Shiro's sexuality, straight from the horse's mouth, and it's a loving mess.
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Sep 11, 2023 21:05
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Acebuckeye13 posted:What even is the list, Megas XLR and... ??? Open Source Idiom posted:Exo Squad, Symbiotic Titan and maybe Shadow Raiders depending on how you class mecha. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umtOGzti-XQ Battletech absolutely counts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLJM4vjMdhc Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles should count at least half, as marauder mecha exist and are used occasionally, even if for the most part they are just walking around wearing armored space suits.   drrockso20 posted:Transformers for this then that's several additional series, and I've heard decent things about Iron Man: Armored Adventures that it probably also makes the list https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSQOF0jfhKY The Iron Man cartoons and other superheroes wearing powered armor should count as mecha, you're right. Which means that Batman becomes a mecha show every so often. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWc8W8gEwtc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6c2DqGGy_Q&t=10s Now that transforming batmobile got me thinking that we have to also consider that American culture is obsessed with cars, and as such American "Car Mecha" shows are sort of our equivalent. You can see this influence in how Megas XLR translates the "mecha obsession" into "hotrod obsession" by making the robot controlled by a car. And Motor City from the creators of Megas XLR counts as a "Car Mecha" series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3AmohgZ2nI Hot Wheels Stunt Racers? Car Mecha. Knight Rider was American Gigantor. Fast and Furious Spy Racers? Yep, Car Mecha. Not to mention that The Fast and The Furious is actually the longest running, highest grossing "Car Mecha" series the world has ever seen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOdynPv8cok
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Sep 11, 2023 21:41
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Man, remember that mecha thing by the Rooster Teeth/RWBY guys, Gen Lock? That went up in a puff of smoke quick.
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Sep 11, 2023 22:36
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I'd say the Transformers are more Mecha than ironman suits. The headmasters show was actually exclusive to Japan, it wasn't brought over to America.
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Sep 11, 2023 22:41
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Junpei posted:Man, remember that mecha thing by the Rooster Teeth/RWBY guys, Gen Lock? That went up in a puff of smoke quick. Wasn’t that also the one that got revealed to be the crunchiest of RT’s animation stuff at the time?
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Sep 11, 2023 22:57
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Junpei posted:Man, remember that mecha thing by the Rooster Teeth/RWBY guys, Gen Lock? That went up in a puff of smoke quick. But yeah that first season that aired on Toonami? Definitely an American Mecha Show. SlothfulCobra posted:I'd say the Transformers are more Mecha than ironman suits. The headmasters show was actually exclusive to Japan, it wasn't brought over to America. Human sized and 3 meter tall powered armor still count as mecha, even if it's closer to VOTOMS than Gundam.
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Sep 11, 2023 23:21
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Junpei posted:Man, remember that mecha thing by the Rooster Teeth/RWBY guys, Gen Lock? That went up in a puff of smoke quick. There was a Gen:Lock retrospective I watched on just how it went down the tubes with just layer and layer of how the second season only existed because Michael B. Jordan's production company wanted it to and got away from the whole thing people liked, which was mecha. It killed off its Japanese character who was portrayed as the uneducated foreigner right as his arc finished and got into a queer relationship, something they did even as they knew people would rightfully crap on it. Said character also based his weird sexist ideals off of watching 70's Japanese mecha and showed that the staff had never actually saw any of said genre. The two villain groups are fighting against climate change. Oh! And most hideously one of the groups essentially has you unalive yourself to upload your consciousness into somewhere, I forget and don't care, and one of the lead characters - Maisie Williams' - does so and it's portrayed as the right thing to do and they have the gall to put contact information for suicide prevention after and she comes back in digital ghost form to tell them they all should do it! Also there's The Sex Scene. Just a broken, broken show.
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Sep 11, 2023 23:46
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Assepoester posted:I think it's the second season that did that. In US media, Headmasters were humans and humanoid aliens who, through cybernetic augmentation and/or exo-suits, became symbiotic partners with living transformers by becoming their heads. In Japan, most Headmasters were diminutive alien robots who used larger, lifeless "transtector" bulk robots to fight. The Headmasters Juniors were humans who semi-magically transformed into Tokusatsu heroes who could turn into heads to also pilot lifeless transtectors. The Godmasters (Powermasters) worked the same way - cyborg symbiosis in the west, toku hero humans piloting lifeless machines in Japan.
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Sep 12, 2023 00:23
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I feel like Gen:Lock is kinda like a smaller scale version of the Black Adam movie, where just like Dwayne Johnson, Michael B. Jordan really really wanted to make it so it got made regardless of silly things like "public interest" or "being good".
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Sep 12, 2023 00:28
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TwoPair posted:I feel like Gen:Lock is kinda like a smaller scale version of the Black Adam movie, where just like Dwayne Johnson, Michael B. Jordan really really wanted to make it so it got made regardless of silly things like "public interest" or "being good". The joke at the time was because Jordan got to play a mecha pilot he'd work for scale.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:08
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Dawgstar posted:There was a Gen:Lock retrospective I watched on just how it went down the tubes with just layer and layer of how the second season only existed because Michael B. Jordan's production company wanted it to and got away from the whole thing people liked, which was mecha. It killed off its Japanese character who was portrayed as the uneducated foreigner right as his arc finished and got into a queer relationship, something they did even as they knew people would rightfully crap on it. Said character also based his weird sexist ideals off of watching 70's Japanese mecha and showed that the staff had never actually saw any of said genre. The two villain groups are fighting against climate change. Oh! And most hideously one of the groups essentially has you unalive yourself to upload your consciousness into somewhere, I forget and don't care, and one of the lead characters - Maisie Williams' - does so and it's portrayed as the right thing to do and they have the gall to put contact information for suicide prevention after and she comes back in digital ghost form to tell them they all should do it! yeah but the theme song was a bop so who really came out on top here
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Sep 12, 2023 01:12
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kidcoelacanth posted:yeah but the theme song was a bop so who really came out on top here That they got rid of in season two. 
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Sep 12, 2023 01:20
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TwoPair posted:I feel like Gen:Lock is kinda like a smaller scale version of the Black Adam movie, where just like Dwayne Johnson, Michael B. Jordan really really wanted to make it so it got made regardless of silly things like "public interest" or "being good". Yeah that's an apt comparison. I wonder it MBJ's antics trying to keep Gen:Lock going beyond its sell-by date damaged his standing among his peers the same way Dwayne Johnson's star just instantly lost all of its lustre after Black Adam farted itself to death.
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Sep 12, 2023 02:03
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Heh, Car Mecha really puts into perspective how the iconic original dubbed anime is Speed Racer.
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Sep 12, 2023 02:07
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Was Gargoyles anime?
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Sep 12, 2023 02:47
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I AM GRANDO posted:Was Gargoyles anime? Anime is an absurdly wide net to cast being a medium and not a genre but even so, no. It follows more along the trend set by Batman: The Animated Series.
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Sep 12, 2023 02:55
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I AM GRANDO posted:Was Gargoyles anime? In the literal sense that it was an animated production, yes. Otherwise no, it was made by Disney in the west
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Sep 12, 2023 03:24
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Dawgstar posted:Anime is an absurdly wide net to cast being a medium and not a genre but even so, no. Uhh, animation is a medium, since a medium strictly refers to the substance with which the story is constructed. Anime is a subset of animation, but it is defined by more than just the substance it is made from. Since it intersects with (yes, essentialist*) ideas about national art it's now a genre, in the same way that "a CW show" is a genre. Though obviously anime is a much broader category. However, the term also refers to animation produced (partly? entirely?) in Japan, but that can be confusing for various reasons, since people can use the term "anime" in multiple different ways. But it's still not a medium. * but all genre is essentialist
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Sep 12, 2023 04:11
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I wouldn’t call ‘CW show’ a genre
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Sep 12, 2023 07:59
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Open Source Idiom posted:Uhh, animation is a medium, since a medium strictly refers to the substance with which the story is constructed. Anime has dozens of genres, my goon. It's a medium.
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Sep 12, 2023 13:07
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Dawgstar posted:Anime has dozens of genres, my goon. It's a medium. You are aware of the concept of subgenres yes?
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Sep 12, 2023 13:23
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Dawgstar posted:Anime has dozens of genres, my goon. It's a medium. But, similarly, science fiction contains dozens of genres. Doea that make science fiction a medium? How are you defining medium anyway?
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Sep 12, 2023 13:27
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anime is just animation in japan, like c'mon. Are we really going to be going in the same post that "animation is a medium" to say "anime is just a genre, tho, Doraemon and Akira fit the same subgenre"
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Sep 12, 2023 14:33
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Yeah wtf why are we doing this orientalism in 2023. There are dumb toy commercial kids anime and mature art films and things that don't fit any mold, would you accept Steven Universe and Sausage Party as the same genre since they're both American. Does something like the CGI Lupin III movie not count as anime because it doesn't look stereotypical. Come on.
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Sep 12, 2023 14:44
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MorningMoon posted:anime is just animation in japan, like c'mon. Are we really going to be going in the same post that "animation is a medium" to say "anime is just a genre, tho, Doraemon and Akira fit the same subgenre" I think the problem is that anime is a word with two slightly different meanings because it's a loan word that provided English with a way of talking about something it didn't have the language to talk about without it. If I was to ask "What's the Japanese word for animation?" and the answer is anime, then it's a medium. I have no qualms with that. But that also means that Gargoyles is an anime. You can't have one without the other. But, like, if I was to ask "What's the colloquial term for the category of animation marked by a distinctive Tezuka derived visual style, produced at least partly in Japan?" what's the answer? If the answer is anime, then anime is a genre -- almost definitionally. (And if anime is a genre, then Doraemon and Akira are both, conceivably, capable of co-existing within two separate sub genres under the generic definition given above.) So, yes, the term "anime" can refer to the medium of animation, but it can also refer to a collection of artistic elements defined by stylistic or formal constraints -- and I posit that it's the latter sense that people are using it in this discussion. mycot posted:Yeah wtf why are we doing this orientalism in 2023. There are dumb toy commercial kids anime and mature art films and things that don't fit any mold, would you accept Steven Universe and Sausage Party as the same genre since they're both American. Does something like the CGI Lupin III movie not count as anime because it doesn't look stereotypical. Come on. I'm not defending the idea of genre. Genre is bullshit woo woo nonsense. It's essentialist -- both racist ("a Persian rug") and sexist ("Josei" anime). But on your other points: I can't speak for random ads, though ads themselves can be considered a genre. Kids ads their own subgenre. We have generic categorizations for mature art films (it's "art films", but also "experimental film making", bunch of other terms), and Steven Universe and Sausage Party are both American animation, a generic category that breaks down further with multiple subgenres. And logically Steven Universe and Sausage Party would fall into separate subgenres -- or I imagine so anyway, I've not seen the latter. I can't speak for the Lupin the 3rd film, but it's entirely possible its syntax resembles anime and its semantics resembles Pixar films (their own visual subgenre). Or whatever, I dunno. This poo poo is porous. It's woo woo nonsense, like I said, mostly useful for marketing and woolly taxonomy exercises. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 14:58
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MorningMoon posted:anime is just animation in japan, like c'mon. Are we really going to be going in the same post that "animation is a medium" to say "anime is just a genre, tho, Doraemon and Akira fit the same subgenre" Amusingly I was thinking Doraemon as one end of the spectrum but like Attack on Titan at the other, both good. Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 15:05
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MorningMoon posted:anime is just animation in japan, like c'mon. Are we really going to be going in the same post that "animation is a medium" to say "anime is just a genre, tho, Doraemon and Akira fit the same subgenre" If you mean that anime means "cartoons produced in Japan (in some sense since multiple countries are involved in lots of shows, but setting that aside)" then it's probably not a genre but it seems like many people have specific ideas about what "anime" is and might exclude Japanese cartoons that aren't sufficient anime-like or include cartoons made in other countries that are sufficiently anime-like (however perhaps it's unclear whether or not the attributes in question would necessarily constitute a "genre" or not). Basically I think trying to debate whether anime is a genre is pointless unless everyone can agree on a definition of "anime" first, which seems unlikely to happen. mystes fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 15:14
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I propose making Calarts a genre. e. "Inspired by Spiderverse" can be another. mycot fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 15:28
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mystes posted:Basically I think trying to debate whether anime is a genre is pointless unless everyone can agree on a definition of "anime" first, which seems unlikely to happen. Yeah, I'm gonna bow out from this now because I think these kinds of discussions are kind of tendentious, but as a final point: I spent years studying this stuff as part of my first uni degree (cultural studies), and IIRC the general academic argument is that genres are utterly, fundamentally impossible to define. It's impossible to find a consistent, universal definition for anime as much as it's impossible to find a definition for science fiction. We can only really talk about trends in physical nature of art and trends in the discourse that constructs meaning around that art, it's impossible to make clear statements about what something means or what its true nature is (beyond its practical characteristics). e.g. my go to example -- if science fiction is a set of stories that make predictions about the future, then American Pie: American Reunion is science fiction because it's set three months after it was released. It's possibly the most accurate science fiction movie of all time. I'm not here to poo poo on anyone's tastes or make claims about the inherent foreign-ness of certain media or anything, and I'm sorry if my enthusiasm comes across as hectoring or whatever. But, in a very real sense, this is something I'm both very passionate about and something I'm academically backed in, so that's where I'm coming from here. But yes, bowing out now.
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Sep 12, 2023 15:37
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mycot posted:I propose making Calarts a genre. You know I'm still not sure what defines CalArts other than "I don't like this cartoon, especially aimed at children?"
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Sep 12, 2023 15:56
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It's actually very normal to consider media by its national origin and the culture that created it, since it will often have plenty of references and influences that also come from the same culture that may seem weird and different from the outside. Movie nerds who watch a lot of international film will often end up talking about french or czech movies. Although with animation, it's easier to lose track of that, since America is the world leader in animation, Japan is probably the second, a lot of influences go back and forth ever since the 80s (and a lot of the literal process of production). I think France might be a distant third so far as countries doing animation go. Dawgstar posted:You know I'm still not sure what defines CalArts other than "I don't like this cartoon, especially aimed at children?" It's kind of an old meme by this point.
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Sep 12, 2023 17:04
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Dawgstar posted:You know I'm still not sure what defines CalArts other than "I don't like this cartoon, especially aimed at children?" First termed by the pedo who made Ren and Stimpy, and was more or less just any art he didn't like. So yeah you can ignore the term easily.
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Sep 12, 2023 17:14
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Open Source Idiom posted:Uhh, animation is a medium, since a medium strictly refers to the substance with which the story is constructed. Are you seriously doing this in a different thread man e: we can define "anime" in a way that makes it a medium while excluding loving Gargoyles. We have that power. We don't have to use words in the dumb prescriptive way you insist on. Arist fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 17:17
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