MLB N/V September: that's what Padres historically have done

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > MLB N/V September: that's what Padres historically have done

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live with fruit: Aug 15, 2010

This thread is so pro-management.

I still have vague memories of Shapiro being shady though.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 04:24

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 07:41

Darude - Adam Sandstorm: Aug 16, 2012

Shapiro and Atkins loving suck and I've never said anything but. They should have been run out of the league in the wake of the Mickey Callaway stuff.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 04:26

fast cars loose anus: Mar 2, 2007; Pillbug

live with fruit posted:

Just dumb then? If you know that Manoah's going to react like this, it doesn't seem wise to do it. Now him coming back is probably off the table and they'll be lucky to get anything decent back in a trade.

He cant be played so you're just wasting a roster spot effectively, yeah I wouldn't expect a team to do that. Also, if I understand the way MLB contracts work, he is on a one year deal and arb-eligible next year, so he can literally only hurt himself with this. I might be misunderstanding how that works, though.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 04:39

R.D. Mangles: Jan 10, 2004

Kevlar v2.0 posted:

And then in the 6th inning

https://twitter.com/WatchMarquee/status/1701790145320714718

this might be one of the best catches in the outfield i've ever seen?

# ? Sep 13, 2023 04:41

Darude - Adam Sandstorm: Aug 16, 2012

fast cars loose anus posted:

He cant be played so you're just wasting a roster spot effectively, yeah I wouldn't expect a team to do that. Also, if I understand the way MLB contracts work, he is on a one year deal and arb-eligible next year, so he can literally only hurt himself with this. I might be misunderstanding how that works, though.

He would have been eligible for a 4th year of arbitration (which is the whole Super 2 thing i keep mentioning). Now he will not be so he'll make just above league minimum again as long as he's on the 40 man.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 04:43

live with fruit: Aug 15, 2010

Darude - Adam Sandstorm posted:

He would have been eligible for a 4th year of arbitration (which is the whole Super 2 thing i keep mentioning). Now he will not be so he'll make just above league minimum again as long as he's on the 40 man.

How convenient for the front office.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 04:44

fast cars loose anus: Mar 2, 2007; Pillbug

Darude - Adam Sandstorm posted:

He would have been eligible for a 4th year of arbitration (which is the whole Super 2 thing i keep mentioning). Now he will not be so he'll make just above league minimum again as long as he's on the 40 man.

Ah ok. I can certainly understand being pissed about that, and MLB service time stuff is stupid as hell no doubt.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 04:48

Bregor: May 31, 2013; People are idiots, Leslie.

live with fruit posted:

How convenient for the front office.

I think it would�ve been more convenient for the front office if he hadn�t been God awful at pitching this season.

Young pitcher sucks poo poo, gets sent down to work on mechanics, gets the call to the bigs again, sucks more poo poo, is sent down again. This happens all the time. He was objectively terrible to the point of being unusable, and I�m guessing also a sad sack in the clubhouse. What were the Jays supposed to do?

# ? Sep 13, 2023 04:51

live with fruit: Aug 15, 2010

Bregor posted:

Young pitcher sucks poo poo, gets sent down to work on mechanics, gets the call to the bigs again, sucks more poo poo, is sent down again. This happens all the time.

Manoah finished third in Cy Young voting last year.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 04:57

Sydin: Oct 29, 2011; Another spring commute

e. ^ Yes and he's had a near 6 ERA this year in 87 IP and numbers under the hood that say actually those results are lucky he should have been pitching even worse. He's not the first guy to have a stellar year and then get sent down the next because he's badly slumping.

live with fruit posted:

This thread is so pro-management.

I still have vague memories of Shapiro being shady though.

Manoah didn't get sent down to manipulate his service time, he got sent down because he was bad. Then he got recalled and was bad again, so he got sent back down. Most teams trying to compete do not keep guys with 6+ ERA's sitting around on the roster if they can help it, there's nothing "shady" or "pro-management" about this it's just how the loving game works.

Sydin fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Sep 13, 2023

# ? Sep 13, 2023 04:57

Mr. Fix It: Oct 26, 2000; 💀ayyy💀

live with fruit posted:

Manoah finished third in Cy Young voting last year.

he was very very bad this year

# ? Sep 13, 2023 05:00

live with fruit: Aug 15, 2010

Has Shapiro ever manipulated a player's service time before?

# ? Sep 13, 2023 05:01

Bregor: May 31, 2013; People are idiots, Leslie.

live with fruit posted:

Manoah finished third in Cy Young voting last year.

lmao

# ? Sep 13, 2023 05:01

live with fruit: Aug 15, 2010

Bregor posted:

lmao

"Young pitcher" makes it sound like he's some prospect. Very pro-management language.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 05:02

Sydin: Oct 29, 2011; Another spring commute

Clearly Shapiro wanted to manipulate Manoah's service time so badly that he tricked him into touching the Space Jam ball so he'd be unplayably bad and justify the move.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 05:03

live with fruit: Aug 15, 2010

I looked it up and they manipulated Vlad's service time too. Probably helps explain where Manoah is coming from.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 05:06

The Berzerker: Feb 24, 2006; treat me like a dog

yeah Manoah probably decided to pitch like poo poo out of spite so that he could get sent down and spark the dumbest conversation this thread has seen in weeks

# ? Sep 13, 2023 05:08

LonesomeCrowdedWest: May 8, 2008

Pretty sure Vlad had an oblique injury at he end of spring training the year they were debating calling him up. They probably would have manipulated his service time given the chance, because that�s generally accepted as �smart� baseball, but unless I�m misremembering that�s not what happened

# ? Sep 13, 2023 05:10

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

It can both be true that the service time rules are garbage that allows for teams to manipulate them to their advantage and that the Blue Jays did not specifically do that here because Alek Manoah was pitching poorly on a team trying to compete.

Like yeah that stinks for Manoah but he was given chances.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 05:12

fast cars loose anus: Mar 2, 2007; Pillbug

Popete posted:

It can both be true that the service time rules are garbage that allows for teams to manipulate them to their advantage and that the Blue Jays did not specifically do that here because Alek Manoah was pitching poorly on a team trying to compete.

Like yeah that stinks for Manoah but he was given chances.

yeah it really isnt that hard to come to this obviously true conclusion

# ? Sep 13, 2023 05:24

live with fruit: Aug 15, 2010

The funny thing is that the original question was "Are the Blue Jays shady?" and the answer to that appears to be "Probably." Or at least "Enough so that Russell Martin called them out for keeping Vlad down when he was a rookie."

# ? Sep 13, 2023 05:29

Bregor: May 31, 2013; People are idiots, Leslie.

All thirty teams are shady. Anyone who follows prospects or is in a dynasty fantasy league will tell you when the Super 2 day comes up for the top guys in late May/early June. �Working on defense� is code for �we want one more arb year.� Teams will phantom IL guys to get a roster spot or skip a pitcher to manage their innings. And that�s just the run of the mill stuff.

Anyway Shapiro doesn�t seem any more or less shady than the average executive IMHO. I could be wrong. But Manoah was dogshit garbage this season and is getting what he deserves within the rules of the CBA.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 06:03

DeepDickPizza: Oct 11, 2012; THREE TIME! THREE TIME!

# ? Sep 13, 2023 06:09

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

live with fruit posted:

Manoah finished third in Cy Young voting last year.

https://twitter.com/BarstoolHubbs/status/1673740478418763798

# ? Sep 13, 2023 06:17

Niwrad: Jul 1, 2008

R.D. Mangles posted:

this might be one of the best catches in the outfield i've ever seen?

I had to rewind it after watching it live because my brain had just processed that ball as a double in the gap. His other catch had an xBA of .970.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 06:26

The Pussy Boss: Nov 2, 2004

Is everyone salty today because their team lost or what

# ? Sep 13, 2023 07:13

Bird in a Blender: Nov 17, 2005; It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.

Niwrad posted:

I had to rewind it after watching it live because my brain had just processed that ball as a double in the gap. His other catch had an xBA of .970.

That dude is very fast. God I hope he can hit at least decently.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 12:23

triple sulk: Sep 17, 2014

Tatsuta Age posted:

https://twitter.com/mlbbowman/status/1701793475002286371

that's actually pretty fuckin funny imo

they're not making it out of the wildcard round

# ? Sep 13, 2023 12:49

Darude - Adam Sandstorm: Aug 16, 2012

Players that have their service time manipulated deserve to be in the majors not guys having one of the 5 worst seasons as a starter in team history.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 12:57

Well Played Mauer: Jun 1, 2003; We'll always have Cabo

Has there been a credible theory about what happened to him? The lol fat thing seems off because he�s been fat since his debut.

I say this with all due respect as a fellow athletic fat guy

Well Played Mauer fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Sep 13, 2023

# ? Sep 13, 2023 13:01

Dinosaurs!: May 22, 2003

The first time he got sent down I saw a video questioning a hitch in his delivery, but maybe that was bogus and it�s something else.

The new rules about teams receiving picks for prospects who win or get ROY or runner-up are supposed to combat service time manipulation, right? I wonder if that�ll have an effect. I can�t imagine a bonus pick would make up for losing a year of your superstar.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 13:11

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

ESPN dropped a big investigation regarding more Biogenesis stuff, and apparently we have some new names of players who were involved. This list includes Melky Cabrera, Nelson Cruz, Francisco Cervelli, Yasmani Grandal, Jordany Valdespin, and a couple others

# ? Sep 13, 2023 13:34

Nodoze: Aug 17, 2006; If it's only for a night I can live without you

Some of this had been out there, not exact specifics, but that Selig had paid Bosch for his info, paid for stolen documents, and side-stepped the real investigation to get what he wanted because he hated A-Rod.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/38089585/major-league-baseball-took-risks-bring-doping-players-biogenesis-tony-bosch-scandal

posted:

ESPN has found, though, that Major League Baseball not only paid a hefty financial price for Bosch's cooperation but, even more, risked huge potential embarrassment in signing him up as it counted on and simultaneously tried to cater to the whims of the unlicensed clinician -- described as a "troubled man" by an MLB official -- who had dealt substances to minors, had a cocaine addiction and drank Scotch heavily.

Ultimately, the investigation would taint almost everyone it touched. Not only the professional athletes and steroid dealers but also a cadre of respected professionals entangled in unsavory tactics -- including doctors and lawyers, personal trainers and talent agents, and from the players' union right up to the commissioner's office. Everyone seemingly consumed by a hell-bent, win-at-all-costs mentality.

he unredacted documents offer a remarkable look inside the MLB-Bosch deal:

Although the MLB-Bosch cooperation agreement spelled out that the league was not to provide compensation or "anything else of value" to Bosch -- true with any witness in potential litigation -- Major League Baseball paid almost $2 million, alone, for Bosch's personal security, twice the figure originally agreed upon. Bosch's security detail was led by a Biogenesis client and included a trio of his longtime friends -- none of whom were experienced or licensed at the time as security professionals.

By paying Bosch's attorney fees as well as the cost of his security detail, MLB assisted in covering Bosch's overdue child support. Additionally, cash was diverted to the benefit of Bosch, fueling a lavish lifestyle of high-end hotel stays and rent for million-dollar condos. He partied at bars and strip clubs on MLB's dime.

Federal documents reveal that six weeks after signing the MLB agreement, Bosch contacted a performance-enhancing drug source -- identified as "Eddie" -- and attempted to purchase drugs, telling the supplier "he was back at work." A confidential source provided DEA agents a photo of the text message, which was originally sent by Bosch from a cellphone belonging to the head of his security detail -- Bhalraj "Raj" Badree, a Biogenesis client whose name appears in clinic logs.

A few weeks after the MLB deal was made, a former girlfriend of Bosch's told federal authorities that Bosch appeared at her front door around 5 in the morning, very loud and appearing to be "coked up." She and Bosch were driven in an SUV by his security boss to a Ritz-Carlton hotel in the Coconut Grove section of Miami, where Bosch was staying on MLB's dime. She feared Bosch might kill himself and described him as paranoid, saying he stood on the balcony and claimed "the DEA was watching him from below." She also told federal agents of seeing two small bags of what appeared to be cocaine in the room, adding that Bosch did cocaine "bumps." The next night, scrolling through Bosch's cellphone as he slept, she also found text exchanges between Bosch and an MLB investigator.

Bosch told ESPN that he took advantage of breaks during prep sessions with MLB officials for Rodriguez's arbitration hearing in New York and during the actual hearing itself in early October 2013 to snort cocaine. "MLB knew it," Bosch said. "When they would see me die down -- 'Hey, you need a bathroom break?' And I would go to the bathroom and 'whack, whack' and go back." Top MLB officials denied Bosch's claim.

posted:

The gist of the eventual deal was Bosch would help baseball, most significantly serving as its principal fact witness in any arbitration proceedings with Rodriguez, and MLB in turn would foot the bill for his attorney fees and personal security, which between them ended up totaling well north of $5 million.

MLB officials declined to reveal how much the league spent on Bosch or the total cost of baseball's Biogenesis investigation.

Even though aware Bosch had dealt performance-enhancing drugs to teenagers, baseball officials also promised to put in a solid word on his behalf with federal prosecutors in Miami, which federal documents reveal was done through their go-to outside counsel and consultant, the DLA Piper law firm and former U.S. Sen. George Mitchell. Charles Scheeler, then a partner in the firm, also told ESPN he appeared on baseball's behalf at Bosch's sentencing hearing.

Documents reveal Mitchell had himself traveled to Miami in late September 2013 to discuss the case with Wifredo A. "Willy" Ferrer, the then-U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida -- a meeting viewed as highly unusual within the legal community. After the arbitrator's ruling to suspend Rodriguez 162 games, Scheeler, an attorney in Mitchell's office, began a letter "Dear Willy," in which Ferrer was reminded of the earlier meeting and of Bosch's cooperation, particularly in the case against A-Rod.

The MLB probe, directed by Manfred, was so desperate to make its case that it paid an ex-con with a lengthy rap sheet $150,000 in wads of cash for copies of medical records stolen from Bosch's clinic. The transactions took place at a now-shuttered South Florida diner. Gary Jones, an ex-convict, signed an affidavit that in March 2013 an MLB investigator paid him $125,000, detailing "cash was in $100 bills, in $1,000 bands, which were then in $10,000 bands." He was paid $25,000 a month later for additional stolen documents. He also went on to sell stolen documents to Alex Rodriguez's camp.

Why pay in cash? "That's how [Jones] wanted the money," Manfred answered at A-Rod's arbitration hearing.

Jones, a career criminal, had a prior federal felony conviction for handling counterfeit cash. In 2014, a year after cashing in on the sale of stolen Biogenesis records and in an unrelated case, Jones was charged and pleaded guilty to conspiracy to traffic counterfeit drugs and possession of a firearm after conviction for a felony. He was sentenced to two years in prison.

Bosch told ESPN he didn't even know Jones and that Jones had "conned the cons. ... When they asked me, 'So how long have you known Jones,' I go, "Who the f---'s Jones? I've never met this guy in my life. 'No, he's a tanning machine repairman.' I go, 'What?'"

Even today, MLB and the A-Rod camp accuse the other side of dirty tricks. But while both compensated witnesses in some instances for interviews and, in the case of Jones, clinic records and notebooks, A-Rod's team of lawyers and investigators claim, unlike MLB, to have provided receipts for payments.

Joe Tacopina, who was A-Rod's lead attorney, told ESPN funds were wired to Jones and accompanied by a tax identification number, which he said is required by the Internal Revenue Service for an individual transaction of more than $10,000. "I wasn't aware of this form at the time the transaction took place," Manfred said when asked by Tacopina at the arbitration hearing if he were familiar with the IRS requirement.

"Everything was sloppy," Tacopina told ESPN. "They were just so hell-bent on getting this guy [Alex Rodriguez]."

Under questioning at the arbitration hearing, Manfred said he and then-commissioner Selig approved payment to Jones for what were stolen clinic logs, saying, "I had no reason to believe that the [clinic] documents were stolen."

posted:

Before then, though, MLB paid crisis management consultant Joyce Fitzpatrick more than $300,000, through Bosch's attorneys, to ready him for the public spotlight as best she could. Bosch was neatly groomed, his appearance freshened for the arbitration, and his consultant sent out a new photo and requested the media discontinue using his old mug shot. Bosch said he was prepped 30 hours for the hearing by a former White House correspondent. He was booked across from Scott Pelley on "60 Minutes," appearing in prime time on CBS a night after the arbitrator's decision to ban Rodriguez for 162 games. A copy of the interview would later be subpoenaed by investigators.

At the time, Bosch told ESPN, he was self-medicating to deal with the stress. As the arbitration hearing approached, the burden of testifying against A-Rod weighed heavily on him. The night before he was to first appear, surrounded by his team of attorneys and security friends at the Intercontinental Hotel in New York, Bosch was having serious second thoughts. "There was a point I was literally going to get on a plane and leave," Bosch told ESPN.

"He felt bad talking about A-Rod and all that," recalled Hernan Dominguez, a lifelong Bosch friend, clinic client and member of his security detail. "He almost didn't do it. He said, 'I can't do this. This is wrong.'

"I go, 'It is already out there. At the end of the day, A-Rod, whatever happens to him, he has a half-billion in the bank. When this is all done, you are going to have nothing and possibly ja
Despite the momentary pause, Bosch told ESPN he turned what could have been a nerve-wrecking New York experience into a hot-wired frolic. He loved the spotlight. MLB lawyers huddled with him on nine separate days in advance of the arbitration. MLB security protected him like a foreign dignitary, as Bosch claimed NYPD cops often blocked traffic when he was being driven from MLB's Park Avenue headquarters.

When the meetings were done and the lights went down, Bosch shed the jacket and tie and enjoyed himself.

One night he hit a tequila bar, a place he said was recommended by baseball's top investigator. Another night, in the midst of the arbitration hearings, Bosch said he led a small crew to a nearby karaoke bar. He describes the group as including MLB's senior investigator and baseball's VP of information security.

"I started performing for them," he said. "And you got these guys in suits and ties. I would say, 'Listen, you're not drinking, bro. You can't be drinking water. What the f--- is that? No, get this guy a drink.' ... By this time, they were pounding drinks with me."

That night, as the clock struck 2 a.m., Bosch, in a deep, husky voice, closed his act with a swaying rendition of The Temptations' "My Girl." His security boss, 355-pound Badree, played the role of DJ in the background.

Bosch said it was the life he was living at the time. He said baseball officials knew he was a trip, so they didn't schedule early-morning prep sessions for arbitration. They'd have a friendly off-duty cop join him for nights on the town. And during a bathroom break, he suspects they knew he was getting high.

An attorney present for the hearing told ESPN he remembered at least one incident triggering suspicions. "[Bosch] was wired," the attorney recalled. "I think he got nervous in the beginning of the case, and they took a break. When he came in -- jittery, sniffling. When people do coke, there is something they do with their lips. And he was doing it."

# ? Sep 13, 2023 14:00

Inspector_666: Oct 7, 2003; _{benny with the good hair}

Well Played Mauer posted:

Has there been a credible theory about what happened to him? The lol fat thing seems off because he�s been fat since his debut.

I say this with all due respect as a fellow athletic fat guy

A bunch of the hefty lads had issues this year and people hypothesize it may be related to the pitch clock, in that they're in shape enough to pitch but not at that pace? I dunno if I necessarily buy it, but I definitely saw it floated for Manoah, Lynn, and Nestor's issues.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 14:01

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

Not even including day-to-day players who missed games. Good god almighty

# ? Sep 13, 2023 14:55

IcePhoenix: Sep 18, 2005; Take me to your Shida

The Pussy Boss posted:

Is everyone salty today because their team lost or what

My team won and also an opposing player knocked himself out of the game by hitting a foul ball of his dick so I'm feeling pretty good

# ? Sep 13, 2023 15:08

Walked: Apr 14, 2003

The Pussy Boss posted:

Is everyone salty today because their team lost or what

you bet

and also making GBS threads my pants over the 4 game series with the Rays, very make or break for the AL East
edit: but its gonna be playoff-vibes baseball for 4 straight days which is gonna be great regardless :getin:

# ? Sep 13, 2023 15:19

Fast Luck: Feb 2, 1988

mdemone posted:

Not even including day-to-day players who missed games. Good god almighty

Say what you will about the Angels being a mismanaged franchise that's squandered Trout and Ohtani, they had some of the worst injury luck ever this year. That list doesn't even include prior injuries like Zach Neto who misesd 50 games and just came back a couple days ago.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 15:25

Inspector_666: Oct 7, 2003; _{benny with the good hair}

Walked posted:

you bet

and also making GBS threads my pants over the 4 game series with the Rays, very make or break for the AL East
edit: but its gonna be playoff-vibes baseball for 4 straight days which is gonna be great regardless

It's going to be the fight from They Live as both teams are like, relatively limping into that series right now.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 15:30

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 07:41

Kevlar v2.0: Dec 25, 2003; =^�⩊�^=

R.D. Mangles posted:

this might be one of the best catches in the outfield i've ever seen?

Pat Hughes gave up on it immediately lol

# ? Sep 13, 2023 15:40

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > MLB N/V September: that's what Padres historically have done

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