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I think part of the reason Rutibex slid under the radar more than he should have is that he was generally pretty cheerful while saying asinine things, which is not the usual issue. He was also always polite and conciliatory via PMs. He copped a few probations but also had conversations with mods where we said "don't do that thing" and he'd be like "oh, I'm sorry, OK I won't do that!" which would last for a while. Anyway if you want to amass examples of typical misbehavior in TG, I don't think Rutibex is a good one, he was a very unusual badposter with his own specific flavor of being a confident idiot.
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Sep 13, 2023 01:07
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Tarnop posted:He was thread banned from Path of Exile video game thread for recommending unplayable builds he made his own PMF thread for posting terrible builds into the ether
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Sep 13, 2023 01:12
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Yeah, I will say that I don't want to punish people just for being wrong or giving bad advice, as long as it's not malicious or extremely harmful (on the level of "try shooting heroin before the Warhammer tourney to calm your nerves"). Rutibex was a bizarre outlier in terms of being consistently, perversely wrong in a disruptive way.
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Sep 13, 2023 01:59
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Antivehicular posted:consistently, perversely wrong in a disruptive way. This should be a thread title. I don't know what for, but goddamn does it deserve it somewhere.
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Sep 13, 2023 02:04
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Rutibex also got really, really weird about AI poo poo in the MTG thread before he got banned too, while literally no one wanted to hear it and was not able to be talked down at all. It wasn't just bad advice, it was just persistent and delusional noise that pissed everyone off.
Framboise fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 02:15
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Rutibex (at least as I heard it) demanded to be perma'd because people wouldn't believe current AI is sentient. Honestly I'm not sure where that falls on the rankings of crazy goons. Probably not especially high, tbh.
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Sep 13, 2023 03:03
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Fantastic Foreskin posted:Rutibex (at least as I heard it) demanded to be perma'd because people wouldn't believe current AI is sentient.
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Sep 13, 2023 03:35
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Fantastic Foreskin posted:Rutibex (at least as I heard it) demanded to be perma'd because people wouldn't believe current AI is sentient. that is correct, and i'd say it's at least up there
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Sep 13, 2023 03:53
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Has there been anyone who was ever only threadbanned from one thread and was just absolutely fine later? Is that even a thing? I have to wonder if it's more like throwing the problem somewhere else instead of actually dealing with it.
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Sep 13, 2023 04:06
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Until people informed me about Rutibex's lovely views, I had always assumed that he was some sort of deliberately insufferable gimmickposter whose shtick was "always saying the dumbest possible thing in all situations," but then it turned out that he was actually just a massive dipshit for real. It's funny too because every time he gets brought up someone brings up another Rutibex anecdote from another corner of the forums I'd never heard before like "he got banned from a video game thread for constantly giving people bad build advice and so he went and made his own thread to keep doing it in."
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Sep 13, 2023 04:43
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I always assumed Rutibex was some kind of cracker. I am glad I have not crossed paths with this person or don't remember them
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Sep 13, 2023 05:00
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Has there been anyone who was ever only threadbanned from one thread and was just absolutely fine later? Is that even a thing? I have to wonder if it's more like throwing the problem somewhere else instead of actually dealing with it. I'm told threadbans have been effective in the politics forums, but are also a maintenance nightmare because there's no actual support for them in the forums software. They have several mods and more than a handful of threadbanned posters and they have to like, make lists to pass down to successor mods or something just to know who is threadbanned from where. You can't just rely on rap sheet entries because that requires someone reading every rap sheet entry every time they deal with a report, and in high-volume high-population forums like the politics ones that's also not very realistic. They deal with dozens of reports daily. Admins seem to feel they're more of a last resort for posters who are clearly not a problem outside that one specific thread, but are earning bans for posts within that thread. Most of the time they want us to just use longer probations or regular bans. If a poster can't stop being poo poo in one place they are probably being poo poo everywhere. I've seen Ban+30 probation reasons that say something like "never come back to this thread, you are threadbanned" and then like four months later that poster has earned a perma, so sometimes it's a sign that things are going in that direction anyway.
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Sep 13, 2023 05:06
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sebmojo posted:he made his own PMF thread for posting terrible builds into the ether If you motherfuckers (goons collectively) get me to read two PMF threads in one day so help me god Leperflesh posted:I'm told threadbans have been effective in the politics forums, but are also a maintenance nightmare because there's no actual support for them in the forums software. Threadbans that I've seen work best are the ones where the thread regulars are all supportive of it because they'll be glad the person is gone and report pretty reliably if they pop back up. There were a couple in the ukmt in d&d that everyone hated and they always got promptly bopped for trying to make a return.
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Sep 13, 2023 05:13
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Why are we calling it aggroposting like it’s just a normal variety of posting? Just call it ‘throwing a giant baby tantrum’ because that’s what it is, and once you do that it becomes really obvious what to do about it
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Sep 13, 2023 06:57
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It isn't specifically tantrums, at least not the way I see it. There are posters who will add some insult/talk down to posters into their posts when they could make the same post without doing that
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Sep 13, 2023 07:43
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Hey dwarf74 here's some feedback: hitting a bunch of us with sixers for discussing the current issue (a lack of moderation in Trad Games and how it creates problems) using examples is lovely as gently caress. I'm not trying to poo poo on Rutibex in particular, I'm going "here's a problem I had with another poster where I felt moderation wasn't happening and I did 'aggro-posting' as a result, what do we do about that going forward." Thanks for not actually paying attention to the conversation and how it fit into the larger issue the thread overall is discussing. Like you gave me a sixer for a post responding to Xiahou Dun where I was explicitly taking his example and tying it back to the question I was posing to the staff overall. Which is obviously an important question, because everyone is still talking about it!Leperflesh posted:I think part of the reason Rutibex slid under the radar more than he should have is that he was generally pretty cheerful while saying asinine things, which is not the usual issue. He was also always polite and conciliatory via PMs. He copped a few probations but also had conversations with mods where we said "don't do that thing" and he'd be like "oh, I'm sorry, OK I won't do that!" which would last for a while. Okay, but I was just using Rutibex as an example, not to attack him in particular. He's gone, I don't have a forums grudge to win or something. What do you want us to do when someone is being insistently bad or wrong about something to the detriment of other posters (financially or possibly in a way that could be unfun, if it's really bad game advice or something.) If you want the meanness to go down, there's got to be some way to finally say "hey, you're really fuckin wrong." e: Tarnop posted:If you motherfuckers (goons collectively) get me to read two PMF threads in one day so help me god don't, it's unfunny and not really interesting even if you do know poe. what you DO want to know is that his bad advice was recommending one terrible fuckin skill (hexblast) to everyone and insisting it was great even when his own play had it absolutely suck balls. then, the PoE update after he got banned, hexblast was finally good and everyone had a pleasant chuckle that he couldn't recommend it when it was actually worth it. Arivia fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 13:12
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Arivia posted:Hey dwarf74 here's some feedback: hitting a bunch of us with sixers for discussing the current issue (a lack of moderation in Trad Games and how it creates problems) using examples is lovely as gently caress. If the tg forum wants mods and IKs to hand down more quick 6ers, and wants us to make more judgment calls, this is what it looks like. I stand by it.
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Sep 13, 2023 13:45
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dwarf74 posted:The past few posts between you two had veered well away from the topic at hand, and into rehashing the old argument. This was to stop it before it took over the thread, which in my judgment was where it was heading - particularly with the extra goon putting in their two cents on the same topic. How do you want people to discuss past issues with moderation without providing examples and discussing them? You're seeing "old drama" and those affected don't get to participate because we're trying to engage in the basic building blocks of human communication. You're shutting down the actual discussion unilaterally. Additionally, if we were "rehashing the old argument" Xiahou or I would have been actually been talking about how D&D works as a heist game which neither of us was doing. I, in fact, specifically kept posting to tie Xiahou's example back to the argument I was making about how product recommendations need to be stiffer. Wake up, come on! I'm trying to participate in good faith with you, the other mods, and other posters, and then I get dinged for it? This is why people get mad at sixers - not because not posting for six hours actually hurts, but because they often demonstrate a lack of understanding on moderation's part. Let people provide feedback and discuss the community in the thread for such things!
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Sep 13, 2023 14:03
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I think it's very evident why you got a sixer for those posts. My feedback is that not all discussions are healthy or should be encouraged.
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Sep 13, 2023 14:12
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I think people get mad at sixers because that's in the territory when they genuinely don't think they've done anything wrong, yes, but that doesn't mean that instinct is necessarily right. And frankly I stand by dwarf74 in this situation.
mycot fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 15:58
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Arivia posted:How do you want people to discuss past issues with moderation without providing examples and discussing them? You're seeing "old drama" and those affected don't get to participate because we're trying to engage in the basic building blocks of human communication. You're shutting down the actual discussion unilaterally. Whether you meant it that way or not, the way your posts were coming over were as attempts to win an argument rather than raise and resolve issues, at least from my perspective.
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Sep 13, 2023 15:59
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Vando posted:Whether you meant it that way or not, the way your posts were coming over were as attempts to win an argument rather than raise and resolve issues, at least from my perspective. I can't do anything about someone misreading my tone. That's why I'm hoping dwarf74 and the other mods would actually look at the content. I'm tired. I'm just so fuckin tired. I do actually care about this subforum, and I want it to do well, and I've been participating in this discussion in good faith and trying to be polite and then I get probed for trying to sort out the issue with another poster. That's loving dogshit.
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Sep 13, 2023 16:59
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sebmojo posted:yes, there's a clear message from this thread that hostile posting is driving people away so report it, pm me if it's not being addressed, and if you are personally feisty please dial it back or there will be consequences. The issue for me, I think, beyond perceiving that "report" is for major issues only, is that my cycle of reaction to a bullying post doesn't lend itself to reporting it. On some level, I'm likely to start out provoked or pissed, either on my own behalf or on someone else's, and my typical response to that is either to compose a response but wait to post it until I can calm down and do an edit, or to just set the post aside. I wouldn't immediately report because I wouldn't trust that my own response is fair. But while I can take long enough (especially with my wall of text posting style) to cool off while composing a response, I don't leave a post sitting in my browser so I can come back in a few hours and hit "report." That may be about 40% "not wanting to make problems for admin volunteers" and 60% "wanting to err on the side of not reporting" but it's clear I should trust the mods to tell the difference between a report made unfairly and one made fairly. Plus maybe it's OK to hit "report" and say "this guy is being an rear end in a top hat toward me gratuitously" and let y'all decide if it deserves a sixer. Arivia posted:How do you want people to discuss past issues with moderation without providing examples and discussing them? You're seeing "old drama" and those affected don't get to participate because we're trying to engage in the basic building blocks of human communication. You're shutting down the actual discussion unilaterally. I'm another poster who thinks the sixers were a good idea. Discussing whether mods should shut down a particular kind of argument or not does not entail having the argument ITT, so even if that was the kind of back and forth that's OK, this isn't the right place for it. I mean, TG is a place where one poster can post pics of their cool Warhammer 40K paint job, and another can pick an argument about how they used the wrong unit colors... and both will remember and possibly restart the same argument years later. In this case, you and Xiahou were starting an argument about "bad system advice" and who was providing it, and everyone could tell the problem because you were replying to each other and amplifying the argument. Now, after the cool-down period compelled by the sixer, you're coming in with a new argument about the sixer, but while you initially package it as a general point about shutting down discussion, you're obviously responding to your discussion getting shut down because you were coming in hot and shooting from the hip. Which you're still doing in this post. I'm not mad at you for doing this or calling you a bad poster or suggesting anything beyond the sixer would be a good idea, I'm trying to help you see that you're getting in your own way here, muddying the very argument you're making it and turning an abstract good faith discussion into something personal and even aimed at you. I'm hopeful that multiple people posting in support of the sixers will help you get a different perspective. The sixers weren't about your argument, they were about that argument not fitting in this thread. If you want to have the good faith discussion, you'd be having it with the admins, mods, and IKs ITT, not with Xiahou (even if he tries to pick a fight with you: just report him and move on). If you want to complain about mods sixing people having a good faith discussion, maybe referencing the sixer you just ate ITT isn't the best way to go about it? Why not point us to some examples that you weren't involved with at all? It's hard to have an objective discussion about something that just happened to you, personally, so you can de-escalate and get some distance on the subject by making the discussion be about someone else. Besides Rutibex, who is gone already. Are there other posters still around who are like him?
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Sep 13, 2023 17:14
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We literally never discussed the system issue in question here. I don't know how much more plainly I can say it. Neither of us ever posted "D&D is good/bad for heist scenarios" in this thread. (The third person who stuck their nose in did, but that's not either of the two people having the conversation.) So I guess I got a sixer because not only are people misreading my tone, but no one can actually be bothered to read the actual words I posted. gently caress!
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Sep 13, 2023 17:20
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dwarf74 posted:Really? I think she has vastly improved her posting and reduced her online aggro levels over the last few years. lol
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Sep 13, 2023 17:20
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Is this a thing where someone states a word or principal and then demonstrates it's use? I know this isn't someone doing a bit, but this feels like someone is doing a bit. Bravo.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:33
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Feels Villeneuve posted:it is also low stakes. a 6 hour probation isnt something which needs too much explanation and nobody should think it is a big deal. lol like seriously i don't think this is really the venue for two people who apparently hate each other to hash this kind of thing out
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Sep 13, 2023 17:35
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I think there is a point to be made that Jeffrey did say something to the effect of "If someone sucks in a general sense, but isn't terrible enough to prompt strong mod action, this website is the kind of place that's welcome to tell them to gently caress off until they do." I'm sure that's not exactly what he said but there was some sentiment expressed in that way. Someone like Rutibex, that everyone agrees was "hard to mod" seems like the kind of person you would direct that "gently caress off" energy at if no other action was being taken. Or where that behavior would crop up naturally even without that directive in mind. But I think that only works in certain places here. The FYAD lite forums can push that, sure, or even a more caustic, silly place like GBS theoretically encourages that behavior. In a smaller/more sedate forum like TG, SH/SC, SAL, BFC, etc. that absolutely will make people's monocles pop out into their tea. Or it starts nestling into certain threads and tbh I wouldn't be surprised if that starts giving the thread a more "toxic" air than the place around it.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:40
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Nuns with Guns posted:I think there is a point to be made that Jeffrey did say something to the effect of "If someone sucks in a general sense, but isn't terrible enough to prompt strong mod action, this website is the kind of place that's welcome to tell them to gently caress off until they do." I'm sure that's not exactly what he said but there was some sentiment expressed in that way. My expectation, were I to do that in TG, would be that I would get probated and the person I was telling to gently caress off would get away clean
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Sep 13, 2023 17:45
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Arivia posted:We literally never discussed the system issue in question here. I don't know how much more plainly I can say it. Neither of us ever posted "D&D is good/bad for heist scenarios" in this thread. (The third person who stuck their nose in did, but that's not either of the two people having the conversation.) sebmojo posted:It is absolutely a fact that the most insane inbox-filling freakouts all come from sixers Sixer's are an ik/mod/admin going "Hey chill out" and a good acid test for posters who will absolutely not chill out when told.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:45
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The even funnier thing is that dwarf74 is still correct
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Sep 13, 2023 17:52
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A sixer is barely a punishment it's telling you to take a nap or hit the showers and post again when you're cooled off
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Sep 13, 2023 17:55
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Arivia posted:I can't do anything about someone misreading my tone. No, see, I think this is one of those times where a principle is being applied incorrectly. Yes, sometimes someone will misinterpret what you say in a way that makes you appear the rear end in a top hat to them, and you have to accept that you just can't help that. However, I'm pretty sure that when multiple people are making the same misreading it absolutely is on the person being misread to do a better job at communicating and not the readers to magically have the intended interpretation appear in their brains.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:56
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Nuns with Guns posted:I think there is a point to be made that Jeffrey did say something to the effect of "If someone sucks in a general sense, but isn't terrible enough to prompt strong mod action, this website is the kind of place that's welcome to tell them to gently caress off until they do." I'm sure that's not exactly what he said but there was some sentiment expressed in that way. Someone like Rutibex, that everyone agrees was "hard to mod" seems like the kind of person you would direct that "gently caress off" energy at if no other action was being taken. Or where that behavior would crop up naturally even without that directive in mind. This is why I brought it up, to ask Leperflesh what should be done instead if Jeffrey's advice isn't holding here. But again, by participating in good faith and politely here, I've received a sixer and am now getting piled on by most of the thread. It's a horrible way to promote feedback about the forum.
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Sep 13, 2023 18:08
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Fajita Queen posted:The even funnier thing is that dwarf74 is still correct
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Sep 13, 2023 18:10
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Vando posted:However, I'm pretty sure that when multiple people are making the same misreading it absolutely is on the person being misread to do a better job at communicating and not the readers to magically have the intended interpretation appear in their brains. Pages and pages of people saying the LC message for Toshimo's probe sucks and Leperflesh telling them that actually it's perfectly clear and they're intentionally reading the worst into it suggests TG mods do not agree with you
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Sep 13, 2023 18:11
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Tarnop posted:My expectation, were I to do that in TG, would be that I would get probated and the person I was telling to gently caress off would get away clean secret trick: report both your post and the other person's asking for both to get done. it tends to chill the argument off
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Sep 13, 2023 18:14
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Tarnop posted:Pages and pages of people saying the LC message for Toshimo's probe sucks and Leperflesh telling them that actually it's perfectly clear and they're intentionally reading the worst into it suggests TG mods do not agree with you I don't think the probe was misread, I think it was disagreed with for not being harsh enough in the language.
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Sep 13, 2023 18:18
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ok whew this thread can move a lot while I'm away. Uh, so Arivia, I think Dwarf74's probations were appropriate and I'll also address your argument directly: on the one hand, you want me to probe the world's Rutibexes for being wrong consistently on a subject: and on the other, you want me to allow you to insist that D&D is a good system for running heists, in a thread where someone is asking for advice on game systems to run heists. In both cases you are asking me to prioritize my opinion over someone else's opinion. Now, Rutibex's opinions were generally opposed by literally every single person who had any knowledge on the subject, whereas your opinion I guess has at least a couple of people who agree with it: but in both cases, my opinion is that you're totally wrong and also just an impossible person to argue with on any subject because, whether you intend it or not, your posts come off as So yeah the argument with xiahou isn't going to go anywhere because his point is valid - there are systems built much better to support heists, and D&D does cost money so it's "harmful" to tell people to buy it for that purpose - and your point is pedantic - D&D, technically, doesn't prevent you from running heists and there are published heist adventures etc. etc. This argument sucks and nobody hear wants to read it. Using mod powers to win fights about opinions is abusive of that mod power, so I avoid doing that. I let it slide that you and a couple other people think D&D is a good system for heists - or hell, anything at all, any more - because my opinion isn't important or relevant, what's relevant is whether the thread (I think that was the chat thread or the industry thread) is still healthy and can continue in a reasonable way or not. People can read the debate and make a decision and you're not constantly wrong like Rutibex. But the feedback thread is not the place to debate whether or not D&D is a good system for heists, and that's the actual argument that you and xiahou seemed to want to have, and dwarf74 was right to put a stop on that.
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Sep 13, 2023 18:50
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Please show me where in my posts in this thread I was arguing how appropriate D&D was as a heist game. I am being downright gaslit at this point.
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Sep 13, 2023 19:13
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