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EDIT: eh nevermind; I don't feel like talking about Land Raiders outside of the fact that Arkhan Land is a cool and good name.
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Sep 13, 2023 18:32
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IncredibleIgloo posted:While I enjoy historical wargaming and miniatures I would have to say the biggest drawback is that you are never painting or creating a force to what you want it to look like. The hobby aspect is to recreate something that already exists. This might be an advantage for some, no need to worry about certain artistic elements or picking out colors and trying to create a scheme, at most you pick a unit/theater/branch that has the uniform and camo style you like and paint that. If I paint my Luftwaffe reserve force and their Flak 88 purple and blue the response to that is going to be very negative. Heck, if I paint them the wrong Dunklegelb the response from other people can be negative. Anybody getting mad about a specific colour scheme isn’t somebody I want to play with. Also makes me think of poo poo like that wehrmachtcoats.jpg image with no two identical shades of feldgrau, or the t-34 factories getting orders akin to « gently caress it paint it a suitable green »
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Sep 13, 2023 19:35
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Pro of historicals: having dwelved into historical books for wargaming, I learned lots of trivia about the world where not only I, but other people too, live. When a colleague talks about passing through Jena, I can mention the napoleonic era battle there, and it has meaning in both our experience of the world. I can go to the battlefield of Lund, a short drive away, and my knowledge of 18th century warfare means I can better understand why the battle was fought there, why it ended as it did, and why it means I am in Sweden and not Denmark when I’m there. While engaging from a fantasy point of view, the debate about which side of the Dark Angels army at Caliban was the one actually loyal to the Emperor just doesn’t come up as relevant at my workplace, or among any non-40K player I’ve ever met.
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Sep 13, 2023 19:37
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I wouldn't get mad but I wouldn't want to play with Pink and Yellow confederates, the same as I wouldn't want to play with unpainted minis. Its reasonable to want to maintain some level of historical accuracy, otherwise we could just play Warhammer.
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Sep 13, 2023 19:38
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If you don’t want to paint a certain uniform, just play older periods. Medieval armies are guesswork at best (see the debate on whether the Hungarian Black Army was even black. It probably wasn’t). We know very little about ancient armies. You know all those fancy roman armies with uniforms, red shields etc in history books? It’s just made up. They might have looked like that, maybe not. Because the contemporary writers didn’t explain things that was obvious to them. Hell, we don’t even really know how hoplites worked and fought. Move away from thr countries with lots of saved recorded histories? Well your guess is as good as mine for most of it. Practical archeology where you grind roots of plants of the region and see if it dyes cloth is often as close as we get. Who the hell knows if the Xiongnu could have red shirts with cool thunderbolt designs on? lilljonas fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 19:45
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IncredibleIgloo posted:Heck, if I paint them the wrong Dunklegelb the response from other people can be negative. My take on this is that while it's easy to read as negative, historical "correction" is kind of an icebreaker for gamers. It's a gateway to talk about fabric switches and paint chips, which is (for certain types of nerds) the most enjoyable aspect of the hobby. You're hearing "You did it wrong," but what they're saying might be "Let's bond over trivia." It might also be "you did it wrong and I'm a dick."
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Sep 13, 2023 19:47
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I have literally never, ever come across someone who’s has commented negatively about my choice of paint schemes in any of my miniature hobbies including model railways which are equally cranky - either it’s because I don’t paint my napoleonics in neon yellow or this is just a made up bogeyman
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Sep 13, 2023 19:49
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Southern Heel posted:I have literally never, ever come across someone who’s has commented negatively about my choice of paint schemes in any of my miniature hobbies including model railways which are equally cranky - either it’s because I don’t paint my napoleonics in neon yellow or this is just a made up bogeyman same. and despite methodically researching uniform colours and dies available to ancient peoples, i usually end up going "gently caress it these guys are red". never a problem with it. they all appear different depending on lighting, viewing distance, surrounding terrain, basing, etc anyway. i also believe it to be a Wargamers Boogeyman
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Sep 13, 2023 19:53
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I've come into two that seemed like the accuracy snobs, but were actually just someone wanting to chat about uniforms both times. E: I never met anyone who was a dick about colors. moths fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 19:55
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Southern Heel posted:I have literally never, ever come across someone who’s has commented negatively about my choice of paint schemes in any of my miniature hobbies including model railways which are equally cranky - either it’s because I don’t paint my napoleonics in neon yellow or this is just a made up bogeyman The only such debate I actually see in the wild, regularly, is Bavarian napoleonics. This is mainly because of a perfect storm: the bavarian flag is white and a light blue. Later bavarian uniforms in the 19th century used a lighter blue. Osprey, back when it was the sole source for many gamers, published colour plates using a very light blue. Hence, most grogs from the 60’s and onwards painted napoleonic bavarians in baby blue uniforms. This is wrong. It was a lighter blue than the very dark French or Prussian blues, but more of a medium blue. Since there are now suddenly a lot of good alternatives for plastic or printed bavarians, new players are picking up the army, and this causes repeated debates between those who have baby blue armies and are defensive about it. So yeah, that’s my Bavarian hobby horse. Don’t paint them baby blue just because a grog told you to. E: also I would not of course be a dick if I ran into someone with a baby blue bavarian army. Because holy poo poo another napoleonic wargamer in this neck of the woods?!
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Sep 13, 2023 20:00
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i paint them baby blue because it's a freaking epic colour and also my favourite
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Sep 13, 2023 20:01
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:i paint them baby blue because it's a freaking epic colour and also my favourite Oh I hope you have checked out French hussars. So many regiments in various uniforms using a splendid baby blue.
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Sep 13, 2023 20:07
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IncredibleIgloo posted:If I paint my Luftwaffe reserve force and their Flak 88 purple and blue the response to that is going to be very negative. Heck, if I paint them the wrong Dunklegelb the response from other people can be negative. We're all here to recreate a tableau of historical battle. It has to look approximately right. A general period. A similar scale. A coherent palette. Purple planes ruins that in an antagonistic way that the difference between light grey and pale gray just doesn't. Yeah, you're going to catch flak for that for sure, and you probably deserve it. By all means paint em purple and run a high fantasy weird war game. But don't bring a rack of ribs to a vegetarian potluck.
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Sep 13, 2023 20:17
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Slyphic posted:There's a massive gulf between neon and 'the wrong shade of green'. I have never, ever, once seen let alone heard of anyone around here (central Texas) that has made a negative comment about the colors of someone's painted miniatures IN PERSON. There's a few sticklers for not fielding unpainted miniatues (I'm one of them), and plenty of folks on the spectrum that are bad at breaking the ice that might come off that way. lol true. well said, esp the final sentence.
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Sep 13, 2023 20:19
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And there's even an entire sub-genre of historicals, imaginations, that's entirely ABOUT refusing to paint historical uniforms and instead make up your own.
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Sep 13, 2023 20:28
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I do get a little mad when Battlefront goes apeshit with stuff in Flames of War. Team Yankee liberties are 100% cool since it's alt history anyway.
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Sep 13, 2023 20:44
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I certainly think in my head when I see inaccurate paint jobs. Europeans especially have a tendency to not know how to paint ACW minis, or how ACW flags worked, etc. but I would never say anything because what would it even accomplish?
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Sep 13, 2023 20:46
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Yeah, I am not saying that people *would* paint their army purple and show up and be surprised people were put off by that, I was trying to illustrate that the palette restrictions on how you paint your historical figures is a thing that exists.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:17
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Well yes but so are palette restrictions if you want to paint ultramarines or khorne berserkers? Edit: I get the point though
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Sep 13, 2023 21:36
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I've witnessed someone literally complaining about how the armor on his opponent's Blood Angels was "the wrong color for the time period"*, so I have absolutely no problem whatsoever believing that there are grogs/neckbeards out there who'd gripe about whether or not WW2 Russian uniforms were tan or beige or green or etc., or if someone used a slightly darker shade of red on their AWI British Army troops. Just because we haven't encountered them yet, doesn't necessarily mean they're not out there. (*in this particular instance, the BA player had painted their 4th edition BA army up in a much brighter color scheme that was more common around 2nd edition, and the neckbeard that was doing the griping absolutely insisted that this represented a far earlier period in 40k history than the player's army list should allow, and so therefore their army wasn't valid for play. In a casual non-tournament game at someone's house. After about 10 minutes of arguing the neckbeard was told to either shut up or gently caress off, and thankfully they did the latter.)
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Sep 13, 2023 21:41
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I would not tell someone they were wrong if they shared an anecdote about a color presciptivist rear end in a top hat. But the idea that they're ubiquitous, inevitable, and a reason not to get into historicals is a misconception I will argue against.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:50
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Yeah, i've seen way more approval than disapproval of even a couple of situations where I have seen weird neon things. I saw a Japanese FoW cavalry army at a tournament that had the mounted units use my little ponies with colors and i don't think anyone cared that much. I think people would've been fine if i'd modeled my Romanian infantry with Dracula as the company command stand.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:56
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Slyphic posted:I would not tell someone they were wrong if they shared an anecdote about a color presciptivist rear end in a top hat. But the idea that they're ubiquitous, inevitable, and a reason not to get into historicals is a misconception I will argue against. Oh I'm not saying they're ubiquitous, or that nobody should get into historicals (or indeed, any other tabletop game) because of pedantic morons who want to argue over completely trivial matters instead of playing. Just saying that they do exist, is all, in regards to the "wargaming bogeyman" statement.
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Sep 13, 2023 22:05
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, i've seen way more approval than disapproval of even a couple of situations where I have seen weird neon things. I saw a Japanese FoW cavalry army at a tournament that had the mounted units use my little ponies with colors and i don't think anyone cared that much. I think people would've been fine if i'd modeled my Romanian infantry with Dracula as the company command stand. Fine? Hell, I'd of cheered.
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Sep 13, 2023 22:15
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:same. and despite methodically researching uniform colours and dies available to ancient peoples, i usually end up going "gently caress it these guys are red". never a problem with it. they all appear different depending on lighting, viewing distance, surrounding terrain, basing, etc anyway. i also believe it to be a Wargamers Boogeyman I was a curator on a museum ship. I distinctly remember an old WWII vet telling us that trying to find the proper shade of (for example) gray for something was a waste of time. In his words, a Chief would give them a bucket of black paint and a bucket of white paint and yell, "get to work."
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Sep 13, 2023 22:19
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"soviet green"
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Sep 13, 2023 22:26
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Slyphic posted:"soviet green" I’ve had green madness for a while with regard to Soviet vehicles in WW2 The silliest part is that it isn’t based on realism at all, because as your picture shows that’s a crapshoot, but I just want it to look right to me So I have a bazillion green paints and change my mind constantly, ironically making my army more realistic 
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Sep 13, 2023 22:40
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All my armies are uniform because I've painted ragtag insurgent forces before where every single model is slightly different and it drat near killed me. Looked great. Burned me out something fierce.
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Sep 13, 2023 22:45
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Randomly neon armies aren't something I've seen but I have seen pop-culture-history armies and I think people usually think they look rad. I've also seen occasional pink panthers for the joke which is a bit more eye-roll-y, but still.
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Sep 13, 2023 23:13
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spectralent posted:Randomly neon armies aren't something I've seen but I have seen pop-culture-history armies and I think people usually think they look rad. I've also seen occasional pink panthers for the joke which is a bit more eye-roll-y, but still. I've always wanted to try a blue Sgt Rock-style Nazi army.
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Sep 13, 2023 23:20
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Part of the reason I get into fantasy/scifi gaming for long stretches is because of how... well, not real it is. Anything Vietnam or later is very hard for me to mentally get into, and even WW2 is pushing it (especially as a Jew myself). I'm not sure why I don't have the same problem with Napoleonics or Seven Years War or anything musket and pike or medieval. I've been thinking about the difference a lot but I don't have a good answer.
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Sep 13, 2023 23:25
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On the topic of the appeal of historical wargaming, for me probably the biggest thing is that it just "makes sense" on a fundamental level. I know what a spearman does. I know what a horse archer can do. I know what a guy with a machine gun can do. I have no idea what a Darkomened Dickbaggler with a Third Eye of Har'zzargharth can do by just looking at it. That to me is the single biggest advantage historical games have over others - that poo poo is real and you know what it does, even if you might not know the particulars. And sure, the particulars can vary, to some they are more important (see above ongoing conversation about uniform colors), to others less so. For me I basically like historically-flavored without being bothered by the actual history too much, since that just sounds like work I don't have the time to do.
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Sep 13, 2023 23:25
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Count Thrashula posted:Part of the reason I get into fantasy/scifi gaming for long stretches is because of how... well, not real it is. For some of us, it's probably because the latter wars you mentioned aren't as "close" to us historically as WW2 or later wars. I'm the same way about Vietnam and later wars (mainly because I knew people who actually saw combat in those wars). My late grandfather on my mom's side of the family served in WW2, but he was drafted towards the end of the war and never saw combat, spending most of his time first in England, then over to Germany after the surrender (though he did talk about a particularly hairy moment when the train of German POWs his unit was guarding got stopped at a Soviet checkpoint, and the Soviets were arguing with his commander and demanding they turn the prisoners over to them, while the POWs started freaking out as soon as they realized they were Soviets). So in that regard, WW2 and earlier periods for wargames aren't as big of a deal for me to play.
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Sep 13, 2023 23:58
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As a matter of fact I think painting can be a positive or negative thing about historicals. Researching and nerding about the details are just fun- my Napoleonics I spent a lot of time making them look ramshackle and mixed earlier and later uniform figures and checked sources to get specific regiments that were there in 1812. They’re my favourite and prolly best painted ever force. Then my wife has russians that are based exactly the same as mine but are all in pristine parade dress. Then my other person I play most often besides her has amazing Waterloo brits where he bothered to make uniforms look faded and did a cool mud effect on a lot of them and such. Last time we played it was snow french vs mud brits on a desert table. Three very different styles but all fun. Also as a (converted but whatever) jew I feel the same weirdness about WW2- my main CoC dudes are hungarians. It makes no sense that I am ok playing the second most naziest nazis of the axis but not the originals. But idk, the germans put my grandma in a camp and the hungarians didn’t, so here I am.
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Sep 14, 2023 01:20
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I feel the same way with how there's been a resurgence in the past few years of lovely spec op games that buy directly into the Chris Kyle tier 1 operator propaganda. Especially living an hour away from a special forces base and constantly reading stories about how they're all hosed up drug addicts who when not war criming abroad absolutely love murdering each other. Why the gently caress would I want to play as them killing farmers?
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Sep 14, 2023 02:08
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I really wish there were more heist/organized crime skirmish games, I would love to kitbash some Wargames Atlantic Partisans and Great Escape Gunslingers into Sam Peckinpah-esque mobsters and run the equivalent of a Richard Stark novel.
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Sep 14, 2023 02:49
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Lumbermouth posted:I really wish there were more heist/organized crime skirmish games, I would love to kitbash some Wargames Atlantic Partisans and Great Escape Gunslingers into Sam Peckinpah-esque mobsters and run the equivalent of a Richard Stark novel. I would absolutely love a game based on Peckinpah's Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia, or on John Boorman's Point Blank (adapted from a Stark novel).
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Sep 14, 2023 03:45
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I've contemplated setting up a scenario based on the family stories of my great great grandfather. He was a 'Revenuer' in Louisiana during prohibition, we've got a few news clippings of his exploits, the oral tradition, and a pair of matched gold inlaid tommy guns with drum mags we've managed to hold on to by passing them down a line of LEOs. So a deep woods still raid, subsequent chase of a truck hemorrhaging hooch, and a final stand in a hideout in the city.
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Sep 14, 2023 04:22
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Lumbermouth posted:I really wish there were more heist/organized crime skirmish games, I would love to kitbash some Wargames Atlantic Partisans and Great Escape Gunslingers into Sam Peckinpah-esque mobsters and run the equivalent of a Richard Stark novel.
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Sep 14, 2023 07:40
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Speaking of Bavarians, that's basically my adopted colour scheme for one of the armies of my 18th century fictional conflict: light blue and yellow/red facings/grenadier uniforms. What would be a good contrast for their antagonists? As a fictional army I'm happy to simply take inspiration or go freelance but it's obviously got to be bright! My gut feeling is to go for colours I'm not using already, so maybe green with either orange or white trim, or white with green/navy trim? As reference, these are the bases I've got so far: Springfield Fatts posted:... living an hour away from a special forces base and constantly reading stories about how they're all hosed up drug addicts who when not war criming abroad absolutely love murdering each other. Why the gently caress would I want to play as them killing farmers? Have you seen a certain Midwinter Minis video?  I do get the point though. I have no idea why anyone would want to play out Desert Storm II or the Rwandan genocide (and maybe this is another made-up boogeyman?) but I think while pre-20th century warfare had its fair share of atrocities (particularly against the percieved non-equal colonised peoples) - typically the battles depicted on the tabletop are those between armies who voluntarily join battle, go at it like hellions for a few hours and then it's all over, honorable surrender and exchange of the provinces and that's that, as opposed to napalming villages and counter insurgency.Jenx posted:On the topic of the appeal of historical wargaming, for me probably the biggest thing is that it just "makes sense" on a fundamental level. I know what a spearman does. I know what a horse archer can do. I know what a guy with a machine gun can do. I have no idea what a Darkomened Dickbaggler with a Third Eye of Har'zzargharth can do by just looking at it. That to me is the single biggest advantage historical games have over others - that poo poo is real and you know what it does, even if you might not know the particulars. I'm sure it got lost in the mix but this is absolutely something I feel the same way about and I guess I should make that more clear. Southern Heel fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 08:21
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