|
Doctor Spaceman posted:Lucas was essentially the showrunner for a lot of TCW. He pitched ideas both for broad arcs/concepts (Ahsoka, the return of Maul) and for specific stories (D-Squad), hired writers/directors, rewrote or ordered rewrites of episodes and plot arcs, etc. Mantis42 posted:They should let him do one of the Disney shows George Lucas's 50s and 60s Teen Analogies, But In Space They tried that with the Mods in Book of Boba Fett and it didn't work, though.
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 03:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 21:46 |
|
|
Blood Boils posted:It's not my fault the EU is a pejorative or that it comes across negatively! They did that to themselves! The point is that the shows and cartoons aren’t “EU” as you’re using the term (and they’re especially not “official fan fiction” lol)
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:06
|
|
|
Anything that's not the movies is EU. That's like, definitional; they "extend" the "universe" of the movies.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:10
|
|
|
It really does feel like there are these religious hierarchy hooks built into the human psyche and even very intelligent non-religious people can get mindjacked by corporate canon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:13
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:Anything that's not the movies is EU. That's like, definitional; they "extend" the "universe" of the movies. Are the MCU TV shows “EU”? Is Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me “EU”? What about Serenity? Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Sep 15, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:26
|
|
|
It turned out jivjov came first as farce, then as tragedy. But to give you a bone I will say I give marginally more credit to the idea of the EU being "real" while filoni is de facto in charge, clearly he is actually a big nerd who has consumed the majority of it. You will probably not be able to convince me eg JJ gave a flying gently caress about anything established in the EU when he was writing
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:33
|
|
|
Real anakin is played by jake lloyd actually
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:35
|
|
|
Xenomrph posted:They are a part of the movies, on equal footing with them, You know what's a part of the movie? A part of the movie. Who cares what the creators say, their words don't magically incorporate the back of a cereal box into a movie.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:37
|
|
|
No Mods No Masters posted:It turned out jivjov came first as farce, then as tragedy. He didn’t, that’s why the old EU got wiped out when he came onboard - there effectively was no EU once he made his movies, and the actual “EU” (like comics and videogames and poo poo) gave him an exceptionally wide berth so he didn’t inadvertently undo something they did. But the Filoni projects and the Disney+ stuff? That’s not seen as EU by the Powers That Be, that’s just Star Wars, an equal extension of the movies. Grendels Dad posted:You know what's a part of the movie? A part of the movie. Who cares what the creators say, their words don't magically incorporate the back of a cereal box into a movie. I don’t think you understand how multimedia franchises work If there’s a narrative, that encompasses multiple projects, there’s no magical rule that says it’s “MOVIES ONLY!!!!” or something This is the movies forum and wanting to discuss only the movies is great and I’m all for it, but there’s an actual reality regarding media in TYOOL 2023 and it’s that storytelling isn’t confined to one medium anymore Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Sep 15, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:37
|
|
|
Does corporate brand synergy mean NOTHING to you people???
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:43
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:It really does feel like there are these religious hierarchy hooks built into the human psyche and even very intelligent non-religious people can get mindjacked by corporate canon. give the sherlock holmes fans who came up with the modern fandom concept of 'canon' some credit: they at least understood that they were taking it far too seriously and chose the name to acknowledge that
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:43
|
|
|
There does seem like a strong undercurrent with ahsoka going on of people freshly gobsmacked that you might choose to engage with a work on something other than disney's preferred terms of engagement. Haven't you seen the marketing that tells you the homework you need to do first!?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:49
|
|
|
Kart Barfunkel posted:Does corporate brand synergy mean NOTHING to you people??? Why is “The Empire Strikes Back” considered “canon” but Disney+ streaming series Andor (which is arguably better than half of the Star Wars movies) not? Is it because one is a movie and the other isn’t? Why does that matter? A substantially better question (and one I should have brought up about 6 posts ago) is who cares? If one wants to disregard the tv shows just because they’re tv shows, I personally think that’s short-sighted but hey, go for it. I wouldn’t fault people for, say, disregarding ‘Solo’ (even though I personally liked it quite a bit). Although speaking of Solo, does the upcoming Lando movie get more credibility in this forum because now it’s a movie instead of a TV series as originally intended? Would Obi-Wan have gotten more credibility if they’d made it as a movie as they originally intended? I genuinely do think there’s an interesting discussion to be had about engaging with multimedia stuff as, well, multi-media. I apologize for the derail I guess, if we want to talk about movies and movies only then that’s cool. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Sep 15, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:49
|
|
|
Lucas' involvement in ESB is pretty similar to his involvement in TCW (allowing for the shift in medium) which is why it's weird to suggest one is fan-fic and one isn't.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:51
|
|
|
Doctor Spaceman posted:Lucas' involvement in ESB is pretty similar to his involvement in TCW (allowing for the shift in medium) which is why it's weird to suggest one is fan-fic and one isn't. I considered using TCW in my ESB example for exactly that reason but went with Andor because of Andor’s quality.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:54
|
|
|
There’s something to be said for how everyone has slightly different levels of what is valid. Personally I can’t give a poo poo about Jedi Survivor but I’m sure it’s canon as gently caress. For the movies forum it’s probably best to realise that there’s a sort of tier system where the movies are the first tier and the shows sort of tidally wash up and onto it, sometimes. The games and placemats exist a bit lower down, like the old EU stuff. That said, somehow, palpatine returned in Fortnite so;
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 04:56
|
|
|
Xenomrph posted:Why is “The Empire Strikes Back” considered “canon” but Disney+ streaming series Andor (which is arguably better than half of the Star Wars movies) not? Is it because one is a movie and the other isn’t? Why does that matter? In the case that you aren’t being facetious, the answer is George Lucas. No George, not canon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:00
|
|
|
Kart Barfunkel posted:In the case that you aren’t being facetious, the answer is George Lucas. So ESB, ROTJ, the sequel trilogy, Solo, and Rogue One aren’t canon? If ESB and ROTJ are canon, does that mean The Clone Wars is canon, since he had comparable involvement in each?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:03
|
|
|
Good news for the Sequel Trilogy
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:04
|
|
|
Who was the guy who got mad when Ep IX came out and completely contradicted all the backstory for Snoke/Kylo Ren/etc that had been in all the fresh new Disney novelizations and comic books and such at that point, like he was shocked they were doing all the mistakes of the EU again immediately lol
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:04
|
|
|
Xenomrph posted:So ESB, ROTJ, the sequel trilogy, Solo, and Rogue One aren’t canon? Canon: eps 1-6 and the clone wars show, yes. Maybe the Ewok movies too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:05
|
|
|
If the scene in Solo where he briefly misses out on meeting Darth Maul a couple years before Darth Maul is killed in an unrelated event isn't even canon then what are we even doing anymore
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:06
|
|
|
Kart Barfunkel posted:Canon: eps 1-6 and the clone wars show, yes. Maybe the Ewok movies too. Fair enough 
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:06
|
|
|
G-canon was "George Lucas canon": Episodes I–VI (the released films at that time) overrode the lower levels of canonicity,[55] even when referring to elements introduced in other media. In the words of Leland Chee: "George's view of the universe is his view. He's not beholden to what's gone before."[48] T-canon was Television canon: The canonicity level comprising The Clone Wars, which Lucas co-created.[55] C-canon was Continuity canon: Most of the material from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and video games.[55] The creation of stories that introduced radical changes in the continuity, like The Force Unleashed video game (which introduced Darth Vader's secret apprentice Starkiller), required Lucas's approval, and he spent hours explaining the character relationships to the developers.[48] S-canon was Secondary canon: Any element introduced in Continuity canon that was contradicted by other material.[55] The Holiday Special is an example, except for elements referenced in higher levels of canon.[48][56] D-canon was Detours canon: Elements of the unreleased show Detours, though primarily intended as a parody of the franchise, were to follow a serial storyline that existed in a low level of canonicity.[57] N-canon was Non-canon: "What if" stories (such as the first 20 issues of the Star Wars Tales comic anthology), crossover appearances (such as Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher levels of canon.[55] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_in_other_media
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:07
|
|
|
I would love to hear an adult with respectable taste tell me how playing a Star Wars video game and reading a Star Wars comic really informed their viewing of the latest Star Wars tv show, where it provided a newfound depth to the story that wouldn’t otherwise be there if they hadn’t been such a loyal consumer.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:08
|
|
|
The Obi Wan show rocked because at the end they went "man absolutely none of this lines up even a little bit with Ep III or Ep IV so what if Leia and Ben make a super secret pledge to just pretend it never happened in the event it might come up later"
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:09
|
|
|
"Extended Universe" began as a marketing term for a collection of secondary media derived from a primary series of television shows or films. To determine if something is EU or not is to determine its relationship is to its wider franchise. To some extent this is a little subjective, but to most of the media you'd even think to ask this question of it's typically pretty clear. For example, the Star Trek novels are clearly EU. Many of them are probably quite decent, as far as paperback scifi goes, but they are clearly secondary to and dependent on the original television shows. The Star Trek movies, by contrast, are not. They're big budget productions (relatively) that, while they may be pulling from a ready audience of fans, are meant to function as a product in and of themselves. I will abstain from judging Fire Walk With Me as I haven't seen it, but I think Serenity is pretty much like a Star Trek movie. It had a ready audience, but it was its own thing. The MCU is absolutely EU, no question. Star Wars itself has a wealth of EU material spanning back decades: comic books, video games, role playing games, children cartoons... I don't doubt that the creators of The Clone Wars cartoon and associated Motion Picture didn't like the association with the EU (because it had been garbage for decades) but the shoe fits. They're fully dependent on the prequels which remain — love them or hate them — the foundation of the post millennium Star Wars Brand, at least until the next trilogy. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Sep 15, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:10
|
|
|
Kart Barfunkel posted:I would love to hear an adult with respectable taste tell me how playing a Star Wars video game and reading a Star Wars comic really informed their viewing of the latest Star Wars tv show, where it provided a newfound depth to the story that wouldn’t otherwise be there if they hadn’t been such a loyal consumer. Do you feel the Clone Wars series (which you said you consider canon) improved your experience with the movies? Schwarzwald posted:"Extended Universe" began as a marketing term for a collection of secondary media derived from a primary series of television shows or films. To determine if something is EU or not is to determine its relationship is to its wider franchise. To some extent this is a little subjective, but to most of the media you'd even think to ask this question of it's typically pretty clear. I think you could apply the “dependent on” moniker on drat near anything you want. Serenity is dependent on the TV series Firefly, Empire Strikes Back is dependent on Star Wars. Likewise, the expanded universe things you mentioned have the same “ready made audience” as much as anything else, and are meant to function as products in and of themselves even if they’re in a different medium. I would argue that the Star Trek movies would be “EU” by your own definition - they require knowledge of the shows for them to fully function, and are made based on the conceit that those watching it are familiar with the shows and their characters and setting. You said it can be subjective, but I think it’s a lot more subjective than you think it is. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Sep 15, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:10
|
|
|
I will concede that the Clone Wars absolutely makes Ep III better but in contrast Rogue One makes Ep IV worse so who's to say if canon is good or bad
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:17
|
|
|
Wolfsheim posted:Rogue One makes Ep IV worse How so? I personally loved Rogue One, it might be my favorite Star Wars movie.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:21
|
|
|
Kart Barfunkel posted:I would love to hear an adult with respectable taste tell me how playing a Star Wars video game and reading a Star Wars comic really informed their viewing of the latest Star Wars tv show, where it provided a newfound depth to the story that wouldn’t otherwise be there if they hadn’t been such a loyal consumer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbgfYsKar1E
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:22
|
|
|
Assepoester posted:The idea of non-Sith "Dark Jedi" running around post ROTJ with orange lightsabers is very much an old Star Wars EU idea and I'm glad they brought it back with higher production values So is the payoff to this whole ‘everything we make is canon’ from Disney really just to be able to recognize that one thing came from a different thing? Exactly what value does that add to the storytelling experience?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:28
|
|
|
Kart Barfunkel posted:So is the payoff to this whole ‘everything we make is canon’ from Disney really just to be able to recognize that one thing came from a different thing? None, but it generates profitable content by getting fans to say "OH poo poo, I REMEMBER THAT FROM [insert EU idea]!!!" which is all Disney cares about.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:32
|
|
|
Kart Barfunkel posted:So is the payoff to this whole ‘everything we make is canon’ from Disney really just to be able to recognize that one thing came from a different thing? Did you answer my question about the Clone Wars show?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:33
|
|
|
Xenomrph posted:Did you answer my question about the Clone Wars show? You don’t answer mine. I asked if [comic book and/or video game] enriched [tv show]. You responded with [tv show] enriched [movie]. It’s all canon, right? What’s a comic book that makes Star Wars Ahsoka a deeper experience? Or am I JUST expected to watch 11 seasons of cartoons to enjoy it?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:38
|
|
|
Kart Barfunkel posted:You don’t answer mine. I haven’t read many of the comic books so I can’t intelligently respond to that question, but if there were comics that went into the characters or plot or set up story elements or whatever, then I don’t see why they wouldn’t make the TV show a deeper experience, in the same way that Clone Wars enriched episode 3. Are you going to answer my question now? Is your hang-up the medium they’re presented in?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:43
|
|
|
I love Twin Peaks. If David Lynch & Mark Frost sold Twin Peaks entirely to Paramount and five years later on Paramount+ a fleet of jobbers (who im sure are fans) make Season 4, Fire Walk With Me 2 3 and 4, a Cool James TV Show, an Adventures of Wally Brando TV show, The Black Lodge Miniseries, the Blue Rose Mystery Files, I may enjoy most of it. But obviously it’s not Twin Peaks. With no narrative end goal, the original creators gone, there is no vision. They’re treating the content as disposable so why shouldn’t I?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:48
|
|
|
I don’t think you answered my question, although “no original creators = no vision” is an odd takeaway. Like, I’m very confident Rian Johnson had a vision when he made The Last Jedi. How do you feel about the James Bond movies, which are written, directed by, and star different people (and I don’t know that Ian Fleming was involved in any of it)?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:53
|
|
|
It’s actually extremely simple: “Universes” don’t exist. Star Wars is a series of films made by George Lucas, with a distinct narrative structure that has progressed over time to form a ‘ring’. The cartoons are not a part of that narrative structure. You don’t watch Episode 1, Episode 2, fifty hours of a cartoon, Episode 3, then another fifty hours of a different cartoon… I mean, you can do this, but you’re loving it up. Underlining the point, the show Rebels ends with an epilogue showing the end of the war. This makes sense, because saying “now watch Return Of The Jedi to understand what happens next” would be bullshit. Return Of The Jedi is not part of the narrative structure of the cartoon; it’s a different story. The problem is that fans do not really understand this. It’s extremely evident in Obiwan Show, but pervasive everywhere. “Anakin’s back!”, when ‘Anakin’ in a given show is as different as different versions of Hamlet. You have characters with the same names, played by the same actors, who are not actually the same characters. (Anakin’s dimwitted “eh, this is war” pragmatism in Ahsoka Show is completely unlike Anakin’s “I can save everybody!” deal in the Lucas films.) The true test is if anyone would watch Clone Wars - Rebels - Ahsoka Show without ever watching the films.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 21:46 |
|
|
Xenomrph posted:Are you going to answer my question now? George Lucas was involved in the clone wars show. The shows added runtime does develop the themes of the movies that he made. It feels consistent with his films bc he had final approval on everything, even funding a lot of it himself so it looks good. Can you imagine Disney intentionally delaying a Star Wars project so they could have more time to make a better product? LOL
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2023 05:59
|
|