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The problem is that it is out of print (Chaosium gave/returned the license to the trademark HeroQuest to Hasbro) and the replacements that were discussed at the time (QuestWorlds?) never made it past a now not particularly well-publicized SRD.
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Sep 5, 2023 05:04
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NewMars posted:You're confusing Yelm with Dayzatar in the first bit there. Dayzatar is the high sun beyond the sky and his adherents are mystics who retire to towers to stare at the sun all day. Yelm worship is done by nobles in cities, a surprisingly high amount of the people in Dara Happa: 4% of the overall population. To worship him you must be a full Citizen of an imperial city, and he grants the power of nobility, command, rule and related magics. Having a yelm initiate involved in any project will make it go much smoother, even if, (especially if) they don't actually do anything. Such is the magic of Yelm. I believe this is one form for Yelm, and definitely also the case in the Lunar Empire, where the Red Emperor is one of the high priests of Yelm! However, a lot of Pentans and Grazelanders also worship him, even if not high on the totem pole. He is the archetype for men in many solar societies, like how Orlanth (or at least Storm gods) are the model for Sartarite men. E: I consulted the scrolls. Looking at Yu-Kargzant, the Sun Horse, he of course is Yelm, but remains a completely different cult from Imperial Yelm, with different strictures, hiearchies, and even different sub-cults and associated cults! And with 50% of Grazers initiated with one or more of his powerful cults, and no real need to maintain temple infrastructure, you can see why they're such a pain in the neck to the settled societies. Tias fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 06:36
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Kestral posted:
13th Age Glorantha does have this.
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Sep 5, 2023 08:49
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I can only assume that's the case, given that Six Seasons has written a whole chapter for it, but that seems like a huge oversight.
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The (otherwise pretty good) Runequest Glorantha.. actually doesn't. However, Jonstown Compendium (the Chaosium-supported fan supplement publisher) has several books with system proposals, some of which are written by folks who worked on the corebook itself. There are several interesting ones, but my method is most informed by the ones popping up in Austin Conrads Six Seasons in Sartar.
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Sep 5, 2023 09:33
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On the one hand, the lack of a heroquesting system in the RuneQuest corebook is baffling. On the other hand, the existence of half a dozen incompatible approaches to heroquesting, none of which have the blessing of canon and thus all existing as the mechanical equivalent of folk religion, is insanely Gloranthan, so maybe it balances out.
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Sep 5, 2023 10:10
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You may take the heroquesting rules from my empty hand when you are able. The hand is not there. now your kidneys are gone
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Sep 5, 2023 10:13
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You know, I often joke that the Dark Souls series are just a big Heroquest of Linking the Fire, but I never sat down and really thought about it. It kinda fits though, doesn't it?
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Sep 5, 2023 16:04
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MonsieurChoc posted:You know, I often joke that the Dark Souls series are just a big Heroquest of Linking the Fire, but I never sat down and really thought about it. Glorantha is extremely influential in Japan, actually. Suikoden, etc. There was a cut Crimson Bat boss from DS3.
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Sep 5, 2023 16:12
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Miyazaki is fairly consistent about citing Glorantha as an influence. 
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Sep 5, 2023 16:35
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Oh yeah, I know that! I'm jsut thinking about the metaphysics of actually trying to figure out the Linking of the Fire heroquest.
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Sep 5, 2023 21:56
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It's a little different in that the "gods" of the DS series are things you can physically find and kill but yes the overall story structure does resemble a repeating mythic narrative.
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Sep 6, 2023 09:56
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Sep 15, 2023 04:46
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I feel that wanting to nail this question and its answer down is something that only grognards want to do (and lord, thou madest grognards, of which I am the first!) However, this is probably a question of semantics. Most recent editions of Glorantha, including the three new cult books, are emphatic in stating that when using names like Yelm, Orlanth, Ernalda, Eurmal etc., they are using the names penned down in the god learner monomyth, that tried to liken all similar gods and give them one name - and that, in practice, all languages and even different groups within the same language area, use different names for the same god. While Monrogh managed to shed mythic (and so actual) light on the fact that Elmal and Yelmalio were one and the same, that does not mean it was not already the case. Tias fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Sep 15, 2023 |
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Sep 15, 2023 06:54
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Another central point with the way the Glorantha publications (and the real world as well) treat gods is that they're either fundamentally alien and unknowable, or at least not well understood by humans, even their own worshippers, and the cults are not the same things as the gods they worship. The question whether Elmal is the same thing as Yelmalio has no single meaningful answer. As cults they are two separate things, born in different historical and cultural circumstances, to provide different societal functions. However, any (Y)elmal(io) worshipper can see that their theology and rituals have strong similarities, many of the myths they have are compatible, and even the magic they receive is kind of similar. Hence it's not that hard for them to decide that they in fact worship the same god, and switch cults if there is a strong enough societal pressure to do so.
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Sep 15, 2023 10:49
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I love the claim this is an unanswerable question when, in actual gameplay, some Elmal PC is going to want to recover Rune magic and the only shrine handy will be a Yemalian shrine. What determines the answer? The absolute state of the deity or deities in question? The cultural beliefs of the people who live near the shrine? The beliefs of the people who maintain and worship at the shrine? The belief of whoever is high priest at the shrine? The belief of the temple spirit? The beliefs of whoever founded the shrine? The belief of the worshiping PC? What if this specific shrine started out as an Elmal shrine until some Yelmalians came along and converted it? Does it matter if the Yelmalians converted it by slaughtering the original Elmali and reconsecrating it or if they convinced the Elmali that they were actually worshipping Elmal? Does getting rune points back (in the new system) come with the restriction that you can’t use your fire spell? Maybe in practice, as GM, you just decide. But Glorantha as a world operates in a way that raises the stakes for that decision, because a PC might try to take advantage of that interoperability later and understanding the why of it could be vitally important. That cosmology matters a lot to the setting is cool, and saying “your game will vary” doesn’t help individual GMs make grounded decisions about such things, while unilaterally defining Elmal as Yelmalio seems against the spirit of Gloranthan reality.
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Sep 15, 2023 15:05
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Narsham posted:I love the claim this is an unanswerable question when, in actual gameplay, some Elmal PC is going to want to recover Rune magic and the only shrine handy will be a Yemalian shrine. That’s exactly why the current approach is to say definitely that Elmal is Yelmalio. To anyone in setting, is as objectively answerable a question as ‘what is the capital of Sartar’. It never made sense to have that be a metaphysical unknowable. Ambiguity comes up only when talking about gods that are not widely worshipped, so there are no temples or shrines you can visit to test things out. Alternatively, you can doubt the basic premise of theism. You can ask Yelmalio about Elmali cult secrets and he will know the answer; theists will say that is because he remembers being Elmal and doing what Elmal did. But maybe that information comes from some other source, like heroquesters telling him so? Thing is, that means literally talking to the gods gets you no useful information. That kind of radical skepticism is equivalent to a modern person saying ‘what if science really doesn’t work?’’
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Sep 15, 2023 17:32
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Narsham posted:Does getting rune points back (in the new system) come with the restriction that you can’t use your fire spell? In the new system Elmal doesn't have fire spells either.
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Sep 15, 2023 17:36
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Narsham posted:some Elmal PC is going to want to recover Rune magic and the only shrine handy will be a Yemalian shrine.  But as a GM I would ask the player why their character thinks this will work, and base the decision on that, as well as whether it will work in the future. Maybe the character just believes that they are the same god, and his cult is wrong or lying, which will eventually get him into trouble with his cult. Or maybe he is desperate and hopes Elmal will answer his call, just this once, even though the shrine is run by foreign heretics. Or maybe the character thinks gods are manipulable entities that can be used as tools, which would place him on the path towards illumination or godlearnerism. After all, this is just a game that is supposed to tell an entertaining story.
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Sep 15, 2023 18:44
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I feel like "the cultural appropriators will always be right" is never going to be a satisfying solution to this problem.
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Sep 15, 2023 19:05
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I would simply worship Humakt with my fellow ducks.
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Sep 15, 2023 19:19
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Rand Brittain posted:I feel like "the cultural appropriators will always be right" is never going to be a satisfying solution to this problem.
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Sep 15, 2023 19:48
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Nessus posted:I would simply worship Humakt with my fellow ducks. No one in this thread is ready for the truth of Zorak Zorlanth.
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Sep 15, 2023 20:52
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Tias posted:I feel that wanting to nail this question and its answer down is something that only grognards want to do (and lord, thou madest grognards, of which I am the first!) Yeah, but this is both a coward's way, and a big difference from how glorantha used to do things. Like, "actually the god learners are right in the ways that matter" just makes glorantha worse. The idea that there is a single, definate truth, a pair of myths that are unquestionably true outside of your religious experience of them, is violence to the metaphysical foundations of glorantha. There may be general truths and relationships between powers, but a single true perspective or set of events. radmonger posted:Alternatively, you can doubt the basic premise of theism. You can ask Yelmalio about Elmali cult secrets and he will know the answer; theists will say that is because he remembers being Elmal and doing what Elmal did. But maybe that information comes from some other source, like heroquesters telling him so? Thing is, that means literally talking to the gods gets you no useful information. Except, of course, that a Yelmalion won't be able to do (and draw magic) from the myths of Elmal becoming orlanth's loyal thane, or the exchange of weapons, and of course, Yelmalio did not Defend The Stead. And elmal has no myths of losing his fire magic, his worshippers can sleep under red blankets, etc. Their cults and myths are different. There are elements that overlap, and they express some similar truths of the world, but they aren't the same.
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Sep 15, 2023 21:56
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Magnusth posted:Yeah, but this is both a coward's way, and a big difference from how glorantha used to do things. Like, "actually the god learners are right in the ways that matter" just makes glorantha worse. The idea that there is a single, definate truth, a pair of myths that are unquestionably true outside of your religious experience of them, is violence to the metaphysical foundations of glorantha. There may be general truths and relationships between powers, but a single true perspective or set of events. The Elmal-Is-Yelmalio explanation is that Yelmalio did Guard the Stead as part of his defense of the world during the Greater Darkness but not as Orlanth's subordinate, and that Elmal lost his heat powers while he Guarded The Stead. Also Yelmalio worshipers don't have a prohibition against wearing red in RQ:G. And there's a tension between Elmal being Orlanth's loyal thane and thus his subordinate and his worshippers being able to become Orlanthi kings. King of Sartar mentions that an Elmali tribe brought in a Yelm statue so they could use Sunspear to aid their rebellion against the king so the kernel of dissatisfaction with their mythically imposed role is there. And even if Elmal and Yelmalio are different gods with different myths who provide different spells via different runes to their cults Yelmalio is the stronger god whose cult provides better benefits. Benefits which allowed Monrogh Lantern to convince Elmal worshippers to switch to Yelmalio, and allowed them to defeat the Kitori and other enemies of the Kingdom of Sartar. So if Elmal gets to keep his fire powers then the rules should reflect that Yelmalio and his cult is more powerful. But when I see discussions of Elmal vs Yelmalio the idea that Elmal is stronger and therefore better keeps popping up and it seems to me that the point isn't just to say that Elmal has to be different from Yelmalio but he always has to be better in a mechanical sense or it isn't right.
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Sep 15, 2023 23:02
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White Coke posted:The Elmal-Is-Yelmalio explanation is that Yelmalio did Guard the Stead as part of his defense of the world during the Greater Darkness but not as Orlanth's subordinate, and that Elmal lost his heat powers while he Guarded The Stead. White Coke posted:And even if Elmal and Yelmalio are different gods with different myths who provide different spells via different runes to their cults Yelmalio is the stronger god whose cult provides better benefits. Benefits which allowed Monrogh Lantern to convince Elmal worshippers to switch to Yelmalio, and allowed them to defeat the Kitori and other enemies of the Kingdom of Sartar. So if Elmal gets to keep his fire powers then the rules should reflect that Yelmalio and his cult is more powerful. But when I see discussions of Elmal vs Yelmalio the idea that Elmal is stronger and therefore better keeps popping up and it seems to me that the point isn't just to say that Elmal has to be different from Yelmalio but he always has to be better in a mechanical sense or it isn't right. There's no reason for this to need to be the case. Monrogh could have converted Elmali because some of them did align more with Yelmalio in terms of runes and strengths, because it was politically convenient, or because they preferred some aspect of Yelmalio life, or because some element of Yelmalio's mythos resonated with them. But also, there's no reason to suppose a direct relationship between 'power of deity' and 'size of cult'. There are a lot of powerful, primal deities with relatively small cults, and some deities whose cults are minor in some places but major elsewhere. (Heler's cult is not super important in dragon pass, but he's the main man's god in manira). Also some gods with relatively limited power who have large cults, like herd mothers and animal-related gods. Fundamentally, though, there's another thing here: While Yelmalio's power is what it is, the power of his cult and their magic is as much based on their lore, their rituals, their technique and their infrastructure. It's reasonable to say that if the Yelmalio cult is better, it's because it has a solid foundation of myths and lore provided by a visionary heroquester, have bigger temples where they can do more sacrifice and magic, etc. Lastly, i've never seen anyone complain that Elmal's cult must be better than Yelmalio - in fact, i've often seen people claim that Yelmalio's cult writeup is lackluster - but rather that it should have access to fire magic because Elmali have always been portrayed that way, and unlike Yelmalio, there isn't a tradition of not having lost their fire magic or whatever.
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Sep 16, 2023 00:36
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Also it feels weird that stronger magic would just make people want to leave their clans and tribes so fully.
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Sep 16, 2023 01:25
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Magnusth posted:These are bad explanations, because the myths are about different things. You can sort of shoehorn it in there, but myths, especially in glorantha, serve the explain the world, and Yelmalio's wandering, his defense of the world, and his trials at the hill of gold explain very different things than Elmal's myths of adoption, of loyalty to orlanth, and protection of the stead as Orlanth's thane. And, there's no indication in any of the versions of Defending the Stead that we have that Elmal would've lost his fire powers. If Elmal is a less complete understanding of Yelmalio then those myths can be seen as attempts to explain Yelmalio from an Orlanthi perspective that's concerned with framing his actions in a way that supports Orlanth's sovereignty instead of providing one where Yelmalio is neutral or opposed to Orlanth's rule. One of the things that I like about Yelmalio is that he's an inter-cultural god who bridges Storm and Solar cultures in a way that Elmal and Antirius don't so his myths about aiding various cultures in the Greater Darkness are more open to interpretation. Magnusth posted:There's no reason for this to need to be the case. Monrogh could have converted Elmali because some of them did align more with Yelmalio in terms of runes and strengths, because it was politically convenient, or because they preferred some aspect of Yelmalio life, or because some element of Yelmalio's mythos resonated with them. That's true, but that's true of everything in a fictional setting. You could just as well say that the creation of Elmal was a mistake in the first place and just retcon him away completely. The current canon though is that Monrogh Lantern proved that Elmal was Yelmalio by demonstrating greater powers via more complete myths. He isn't mentioned to have lost any powers so while Elmal and Yelmalio may have differed mechanically in the past, in lore they are at least the same and if there is any inequality in their powers it should be weighted in favor of Yelmalio. Which apparently is how the current rules are going to work once the relevant book is published with Elmal losing Yelmalio's gifts and geases and having slight differences in gaining spells from associated cults. Magnusth posted:Lastly, i've never seen anyone complain that Elmal's cult must be better than Yelmalio - in fact, i've often seen people claim that Yelmalio's cult writeup is lackluster - but rather that it should have access to fire magic because Elmali have always been portrayed that way, and unlike Yelmalio, there isn't a tradition of not having lost their fire magic or whatever. Have they? I know that he's had fire magic in a lot of his rule sets, and I don't have access to older books but from what I've read from other people it sounds like in some previous rules he's had Light instead of the Fire/Sky rune, not just the current RQ:G. In RQ:G Elmal also has the Truth rune but in some systems he doesn't and instead has (I think) the Stasis or Movement rune yet people don't seem to be as fired up about him losing those, they want Elmal to have fire powers because they want their characters to have fire spells. Gorelab posted:Also it feels weird that stronger magic would just make people want to leave their clans and tribes so fully. If the stronger magic comes from having a more complete understanding of your god then that would, and did, convince many. There was also apparently a civil war going on because many Elmali were dissatisfied and being stirred up by the Lunars and Monrogh's revelation provided a political solution because Yelmalio is neutral to Orlanth instead of owing allegiance so it allowed the former Elmali to assert their autonomy in a way that didn't challenge the Kingdom of Sartar's Orlanth derived authority. This is coming from Jeff Richard though so take that how you will. White Coke fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Sep 16, 2023 |
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Sep 16, 2023 01:34
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The thing is, "people are leaving Cult A for Cult B because it's politically convenient" is an interesting story. So is "people are leaving Cult A because Cult B has a charismatic leader who gives access to better magic," or "people are leaving Cult A because Cult A is being suppressed and Cult B isn't." What isn't an interesting story is "people are leaving Cult A because someone used math to prove that their god was actually a totally different god all along."
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Sep 16, 2023 01:45
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Nessus posted:I would simply worship Humakt with my fellow ducks.
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Sep 16, 2023 01:51
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Yelmalio lacks fire magics because he represents the denuded war magic skills of the Pelorian people in the wake of Yelm's death, the war of many suns, and the invasion of the various barbarian peoples. The myth is the history, and the history is the myth; they are intertwined. Yelmalio's myth is about enduring defeats and remaining unchanging. As Antirius, he represents reactionary responses to internal challenges to Imperial rule. Elmal's myths aren't about that, his people migrated south and integrated into the Orlanthi cultures of the Kerofinelia region. Elmal's myths are about changing without losing your core values.
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Sep 16, 2023 01:53
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Elmal's been fire and truth in everything he's been fully written up in too until RQG.
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Sep 16, 2023 02:31
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Rand Brittain posted:The thing is, "people are leaving Cult A for Cult B because it's politically convenient" is an interesting story. So is "people are leaving Cult A because Cult B has a charismatic leader who gives access to better magic," or "people are leaving Cult A because Cult A is being suppressed and Cult B isn't." wiegieman posted:Yelmalio lacks fire magics because he represents the denuded war magic skills of the Pelorian people in the wake of Yelm's death, the war of many suns, and the invasion of the various barbarian peoples. The myth is the history, and the history is the myth; they are intertwined. Yelmalio's myth is about enduring defeats and remaining unchanging. As Antirius, he represents reactionary responses to internal challenges to Imperial rule. People keep claiming that Elmal and Yelmalio's myths are totally different but to me they seem to have a lot of overlap so if you think that they have irreconcilably different meanings then you can interpret them that way but as written in the canon of the official publications their myths are similar enough that most Elmali have switched over. This and also this are an interesting explanation of the broader context of the transition from Elmal to Yelmalio. "Yelmalio was the alternative to Yelm, rather than the alternative to Elmal." is an interesting point. I've only come to the setting recently so I don't feel strongly about defending an earlier retcon as the way it's supposed to be versus a later retcon. That said I'm also not opposed to them being different gods with Monrogh tricking Elmal worshippers with Lunar illumination tricks or some other explanation. But my perspective is colored by seeing discussions about Elmal vs. Yelmalio end up talking about how they want the official rules to allow their Elmal worshipping character to be able to use fire spells without having to create their own non-canon Glorantha at odds with the published rules. Gorelab posted:Elmal's been fire and truth in everything he's been fully written up in too until RQG. I don't have a copy, but I found a post on another forum saying that on page 45 of Storm Tribe he has Light not Fire. Can anyone confirm? Here it doesn't list any runes for Elmal in Storm Tribe. If he did have the Light rune in Storm Tribe then it'd mean he didn't have Fire in his first published set of rules. wiegieman posted:In Heroquest terms, Yelmalio is <Light> <Stasis> <Truth>, while Elmal is <Sun> <Movement> <Truth>. Aside from their different runes, Yelmalio gives geases that can be followed for increased power and teaches various phalanx tricks, whereas Elmal is part of the storm tribe and has access to associate magic from it while teaching cavalry magic, but both are powerful defenders. According to the list he also doesn't have Movement in Heroquest so I'm really curious about his write up in Storm Tribe.
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Sep 16, 2023 03:44
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Nessus posted:I would simply worship Humakt with my fellow ducks.
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Sep 16, 2023 03:50
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Looking it up: Elmal in Hero Wars just had a personal run which was a sun. This isn't that uncommon in Hero Wars and a lot of various gods have something like that, which can be seen in the entire Lunar book where literally every god just has a unique rune which powers are hanging off. In Heroquest and it's derivatives it's all Fire and Truth.
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Sep 16, 2023 06:21
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The Fire rune can be read as Fire, Sun, or Sky - is the blazing power of the sky dome, purity compressed to a hot point and radiating both light and heat. Yelmalio (or Antirius) has the Light rune, which is the Fire rune without a dot in the middle -- he is the shed light that lingers, but not a source of warmth. He is not a god of easy times. Lodril has his own personal rune, an Earth square with a Fire dot in the middle.
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Sep 16, 2023 07:03
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All of this would be solved if we just put our faith in Gustbran who came to us all as the Many Fires in the Darkness, the Lord of Smiths, Greatest of the Lowfires, who shall repair the world and light the way in darkest winter.
TGG fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Sep 16, 2023 |
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Sep 16, 2023 07:18
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Gorelab posted:Looking it up: Elmal in Hero Wars just had a personal run which was a sun. This isn't that uncommon in Hero Wars and a lot of various gods have something like that, which can be seen in the entire Lunar book where literally every god just has a unique rune which powers are hanging off. In Heroquest and it's derivatives it's all Fire and Truth. I wonder where that poster got the idea he had Light then. In Hero Wars did Elmal have fire spells? wiegieman posted:Yelmalio (or Antirius) has the Light rune, which is the Fire rune without a dot in the middle -- he is the shed light that lingers, but not a source of warmth. He is not a god of easy times. Except for in RQ:G where he has the Fire rune but can only use Light spells. And in Sartar, Kingdom of Heroes. Lodril also sometimes has the Heat rune, other times Earth or even Fire. TGG posted:All of this would be solved if we just put our faith in Gustbran who came to us all as the Many Fires in the Darkness, the Lord of Smiths, Greatest of the Lowfires, who shall repair the world and light the way in darkest winter. Would you like to hear the good word of Zorak Zorlanth?
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Sep 16, 2023 07:21
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TGG posted:All of this would be solved if we just put our faith in Gustbran who came to us all as the Many Fires in the Darkness, the Lord of Smiths, Greatest of the Lowfires, who shall repair the world and light the way in darkest winter.
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Sep 16, 2023 07:32
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Hey, first, sorry if I came off a little aggressive. Elmal is dear to my heart and I'm used to fighting old grognards about it, so apologies if I came out swinging.White Coke posted:
Remember, myths aren't just things you learn, they're things you do, things which are manifest around you in the social and physical world. Sometimes, it makes sense that a myth may be a leaser understanding of another, if it represents a less complete understanding and explanation of the world around you, but Elmal and Yelmalio represent very different things. Elmal and his myths are, on a social level, about the integration of the hyalorings in orlanthi society, about why they use horses and what role they play, about the ways thanes should interact with leaders, and the nessecity and acceptance of warriors who protect the home and stead while all the orlanth initiates are out on bold adventures. On a cosmic level, Elmal represents the ability of orlanth to make friends with the worthy no matter their family, and the sun as a life giving, friendly force, which brings warmth and life. When an Elmali embodies the presence of Elmal though his rune spells, these are the truths he calls on and reinforce. When a heroquester becomes Elmal and defends the stead, he brings back these things (well, some of them, others need different myths). But Yelmalio represents and explains different truths of the world. Socially, he represents a solar warrior ideal, but also a break from Yelm's direct control as a wandering adventurer. He also represents the preserverance of the solar culture despite civil wars, monsters, barbarians, etc. At the hill of gold, he represents a cosmic truth that the light perseveres in darkness, and a simple physical truth of the lightfore shining in even the darkeat night. He is the questing adventurer who stands up no matter what, who endures loss and pain and humiliation and still stands up for the sake of the world. These are not greater and lesser versions of one thing, but fundamentally different things they explain and represent. White Coke posted:
To be clear, what I meant was simply that it doesn't have to be true that Yelmalio is more powerful because he was able to convert people. I'll comment on the mechanics and powers stuff a little further down. White Coke posted:
So, I went and looked this up. Storm tribe doesn't list Elmals runes, because HW makes different assumptions about how gods and runes work. His personal rune is called the sun rune, but doesn't match the "modern" sun rune, the circle with the dot. That rune is used in HW, but as far as I can tell, only as Yelm's personal rune. Meanwhile, there the light rune does exist, but it is associated with both light and heat, in contrast to its modern use, where it is specifically associated with yelmalio's loss of heat. Back to storm tribe, Elmal's initiates do use the light rune, but there are abilities listed with it which are clearly about fire and heat - resist frost, rekindle hearth fire, and blazing spear. The write-up does focus on his brightness over his heat, but there are also several mentions of his heat, and in the narrative of guards the stead, he burns things away, his tears are flaming, etc. He is also the fertile sun, which is another sun and heat thing. He is very clearly not the light without heat that Yelmalio is, the bright light of the lightfore which shines without heat but still illuminates the dark. Now, I don't actually think Elmal needs super strong fire rune-magic, he is more bright than burning, but his worshippers have always been associated with flaming spears and arrows, so his cult should have access to those, and in modern terms he definitely has the fire/sky rune, not just the light rune. As for just wanting Elmal to have fire, that seems a silly complaint. People want to play a cool, just, and steadfast defender with a burning spear, one of the more iconic images for a lot of people, and have been able to do so in most previous versions of the setting, but now can't, and get told that their favorite god is actually someone else, who many of them consider less interesting and has a completely different feel, aesthetic, and social role. Of course they're going to complain about losing fire in the service of making Elmal more like someone they don't like. We don't want fire magic to be better than Yelmalio, we want fire magic to be the cool defender with a burning spear we've always loved.
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Sep 16, 2023 10:22
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The Elmal subcult of Yelmalio, when it’s published, will very likely be associated with Yu-Kargzant or someone, and so have Firespear (which is in the Red Book of Magic, but not taught by any published cult write up). it’s a limitation of a paper book that it has to say ‘Elmal is a subcult of Yelmalio’, rather than ‘both are subcults of the true unknowable divine entity’.
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Sep 16, 2023 12:15
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