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The forumban was a good shot. Thank you.
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Sep 14, 2023 01:15
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It seems to me like “using the buttons” is another way to say “publicly holding someone accountable” and that you really should be far more willing to do that. If you know it’s a poster who will react really negatively to being held accountable, all the more reason to let that play out as soon as possible. The public part is important, though. It lets other users see that accountability is a thing taken seriously in the community. Even if your probe reason is “cool down and talk to me in PMs” that still shows that action is being taken. I’ve seen this complaint come up in this sub multiple times in the last few years. This should be a community that values the community over individuals, and that includes a public listing of 6ers for when the problem poster needed to be reached out to. It also helps the mods be more accountable as they now have a record in one place of all the times they’ve had to curb a posters behavior. It let’s the community see “oh they are actively reaching out to this poster.” And finally, that poster is held accountable by the fact that their record of disruptive behavior is far more easily available to the community. There are some truly amazing mental health treatment facilities not motivated by profit that are nonetheless less lenient than this forum with problematic behavior. It is not your job to rehabilitate problem posters. It is your job to safeguard the community. Always prioritize that over individuals, imo. Edit: to lay out my specific recommendations 1) every time you have to post in a thread for people to calm down, leave it at that. 2) every time you have to PM a poster about their behavior, accompany with a 6er, a brief reason, and a “reached out in PMs” 3) always prioritize the community over individual posters’ personal issues and take no responsibility for the latter 4? This one is up for debate, because it helps no one to just have struggle sessions, but maybe some kind of public summary or feedback regarding specific problematic posters? I don’t know how this could work, maybe others hav ideas. fr0id fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 03:10
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fr0id posted:It is not your job to rehabilitate problem posters. It is your job to safeguard the community. Always prioritize that over individuals, imo. This is really the crux of it, imo. I get the urge to want to be like "but what if this person could be rehabbed to not be so lovely" but letting this stuff drag out is how communities get worse, not better. If someone can't figure out that the way they post is why they keep eating escalating probations, that's a them problem.
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Sep 14, 2023 04:08
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Giving people a few chances (with appropriate punishments) is fine and generally the correct thing to do, but at some point it should become obvious that they aren't going to improve no matter how much rope you give them.
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Sep 14, 2023 04:16
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Fajita Queen posted:Giving people a few chances (with appropriate punishments) is fine and generally the correct thing to do, but at some point it should become obvious that they aren't going to improve no matter how much rope you give them. 
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Sep 14, 2023 04:17
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One of the awkward things about this situation is that as nice as it seems to "rehabilitate" a problem poster, they are often still making GBS threads things up (at a progressively slower rate) and meanwhile everyone else has to put up with it while not being privy to whatever discussions and steps are being taken. I think it's a noble goal to want to help people, but ultimately doesn't serve the other users of the forum. The fact that two problematic users handled with inordinate grace have continued to escalate things is probably a big part of that backlash. Honestly a "push buttons and if people get pissy about small button push it probably warrants a harder button push" policy is probably the better way to go about it. It should be a huge red flag that a user who escalated to being forum banned had staff "walking on eggshells" around them, and as much of a success story as rehabbing them would have been, the failure is worse than just dealing with them properly in the first place.
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Sep 14, 2023 04:29
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Arivia posted:Fine, I’ll move on out of the forum then. If I’m being gaslit and probed for things I didn’t post at all and nothing I can do in good faith is good enough for you, then there’s nothing I can do to remain a poster in good standing. Farewell
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Sep 14, 2023 05:27
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rodbeard posted:I stopped posting in TG because someone accused me of being a bad person for liking the wrong version of Dungeons and Dragons. Just posted this in SAD yesterday. Guess who I was referring to? Looking back it seems I gave up on TG 4 years ago. I know you want to move on from talking about Arivia but I want to know why you allowed her behavior to continue for years? Seven Deadly Sins posted:One of the awkward things about this situation is that as nice as it seems to "rehabilitate" a problem poster, they are often still making GBS threads things up (at a progressively slower rate) and meanwhile everyone else has to put up with it while not being privy to whatever discussions and steps are being taken. I think it's a noble goal to want to help people, but ultimately doesn't serve the other users of the forum. The fact that two problematic users handled with inordinate grace have continued to escalate things is probably a big part of that backlash. Yeah basically this. Every extra chance you gave Arivia was at the expense of everyone else.
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Sep 14, 2023 05:50
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rodbeard posted:Just posted this in SAD yesterday. Guess who I was referring to? Looking back it seems I gave up on TG 4 years ago. I know you want to move on from talking about Arivia but I want to know why you allowed her behavior to continue for years? dwarf74 posted:Really? I think [Arivia] has vastly improved her posting and reduced her online aggro levels over the last few years.
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Sep 14, 2023 06:12
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The mods/IKs in this thread copped to their mistakes and promise to do better. Until another user goes aggro over cardboard games I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt. The Sheldon post in the MTG thread was the straw that broke the camel's back for the community. I don't think we need to antagonize them and make them explain themselves over and over.
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Sep 14, 2023 06:17
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jfyi, this whole recent thing (on top of the toshimo stuff) is the sort of poo poo that makes posting in tg (and other parts of SA) not worth the hassle.
Mekchu fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 07:32
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Fuego Fish posted:One time I told Arivia to take a break from posting and come back after cooling off. The result was a vendetta that lasted for years, with various attempts to smear me as being a white nationalist, child pornographer, blatant heterosexual, or all of the above. Leperflesh posted:Yes, it's gone through. It's a forumban. I'm unhappy it came to this. Endorph fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 07:57
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if someone is making the forum worse to read, get rid of them. nobody on god's green earth gives a poo poo about their character arc, making them a better person, rehabilitating them, or them being in a better space. something awful is not a public good that we need to ensure access to. if they do any of those things they can pay 10 bucks and post normally and nobody will notice or care. if they cannot post in a way that doesnt make everyone around them miserable they shouldn't be here. tolerating a person making everyone around them miserable in the hopes that someday they will maybe get better with only mild outside prodding and punishment doesn't make you a good person. you're making a bunch of people miserable and allowing a social space people like to rot. it is not a good thing to do. it is not the higher ground. it is the wrong thing to do. you are making things worse. Endorph fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 08:00
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rodbeard posted:Yeah basically this. Every extra chance you gave Arivia was at the expense of everyone else. I think this is apt. Another way to put it might be to say that every chance you give to a bad poster risks a good poster leaving. We've had multiple people come here and tell us that they left TG because bad posting has made is suck for a long while. What's the way to fix it? Use buttons, and most importantly and don't engage with bad posts from your position of authority to try and argue with people. The choice is to either chat and argue with people as a a normal user, or you can be the volunteer who is working create the environment goons want but you can't do both, as has been demonstrated for years now.
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Sep 14, 2023 08:32
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Endorph posted:if someone is making the forum worse to read, get rid of them. This, IMO. They can always just  back after they've had a chance to become a better person elsewhere.
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 08:33
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Endorph posted:why wasnt she banned for this Genuinely I do not know. The first time I tried to refute those accusations I ate a sixer for my trouble, so I just put her on ignore and trusted that everyone else wouldn't automatically trust her word that I was the next Hitler.
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Sep 14, 2023 08:41
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Fuego Fish posted:Genuinely I do not know. The first time I tried to refute those accusations I ate a sixer for my trouble, so I just put her on ignore and trusted that everyone else wouldn't automatically trust her word that I was the next Hitler. You just made me read an irc log from 2016 where you joked about spear chucking jungle bunnies. I’m gonna close up this thread for a bit, i think any pressing tg drama can wait until tomorrow, or next year or whenever.
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Sep 14, 2023 08:47
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re-opening this thread, thank you for your patience Fuego Fish I wish I'd known literally any of that. It was all before I was ever a mod, and I never heard about it. This is partly a structural problem, the loss of institutional memory. When Athanatos first asked me to be an IK for trad games, Reene had been absent for months and she's never returned. I was more or less starting from scratch. There was no mod-forum team zone thread to read, the only notes are probation reasons, and even the SA admin team had experienced quite a lot of turnover in recent years. Arivia of course I knew, but I can't recall having any opinion on other TG posters we've discussed recently. Now, hopefully we have much better documentation (I've worked on that a lot). I document every decision I make via the reports thread function, and anything that is important or I think needs to "be remembered" goes in the mod team zone thread. That doesn't mean we're like, making dossiers or something, it just means that if someone needs to understand the context of a decision from two years ago, they can find posts around that time and get it. Anyway. That's just one factor. I think more generally I was impressed by what I saw as improvement from a poster I had assumed was on their way out, and I can see in the notes from the last couple years that I wasn't alone, in the mod forum anyway. I'm surprised by the reversal and wish it hadn't come to this but I also hear how many people had simply stopped posting, because of her or anyone else like that, and while I don't really feel the same personally (I have never used my ignore list, for example) the mod team needs to account for that chilling effect more and better than we have been. Each situation is different, each poster is different, but there's a lesson to be learned here for sure, about taking too long to draw a line and cut someone off. Magnetic North posted:I think this is apt. Another way to put it might be to say that every chance you give to a bad poster risks a good poster leaving. We've had multiple people come here and tell us that they left TG because bad posting has made is suck for a long while. While I believe I understand where you're coming from, the bolded part I think is a different thing that I want to unpack a little. I think what you mean is, a moderator can't be having an argument with someone, and then use their buttons to enforce their side of the argument. That's totally true, but I don't think I do that and I haven't seen it from other TG mods either. If I'm having an argument with someone on some trad games thing, I recuse myself from moderating it. Part of why we have multiple mods, and admins too. It doesn't mean that argument has to go unmoderated. I'm a TG user, I get to post and chat in TG threads, I get to have an opinion about a game or a company or a mechanic or whatever, and say it. I think it'd be very weird and probably bad if mods weren't active participants in their communities. If you meant something different than that, I'm missing it.
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Sep 15, 2023 22:44
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traditional games has been temporarily renamed to keep it in line with ISO standards.
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Sep 16, 2023 00:20
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Should have gone with tRad Games, imo
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Sep 16, 2023 00:24
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can we update the byline, too? I suggest "Playing trad games every day and talking about how much we hate them."
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Sep 16, 2023 00:27
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Uh is it too late to say for the record that I usually enjoyed Arivia's posting and will miss having her around?
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Sep 16, 2023 04:23
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Honestly I did too. Like 95% of her posts were fine and many of them were cool and good. That I think tends to be true of a lot of people who wind up kicked out, and it's part of why it's so easy to let them keep posting for years.
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Sep 16, 2023 04:25
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Thank you for reopening this thread. I think it's fine if this thread gets closed if people start using it for their personal crusades against users who are not part of the mod team, so long as it actually gets reopened eventually.Leperflesh posted:I think what you mean is, a moderator can't be having an argument with someone, and then use their buttons to enforce their side of the argument. That is not what I meant. If you look at what the quoted post is responding to, this is directly referring to attempting to 'rehabilitate' a poster. This is not about actual discussion topics no matter how toxic the posts are and this could apply to any SA subforum. So, for a sleep-deprived (unrelated to TG I promise  ) attempt at clarification:The idea that you felt like you had to 'walk on eggshells' with someone in regards to moderation feedback is potentially understandable but also sub-ideal. It's a little silly (who loving cares what they think, your goal is not to be loved but should be to engender the community goons want) and it's ineffective (most people are not receptive to argumentation at the best of times and are only going to be made more upset by feeling condescended to and even more so in public). In response to this, we had many people come out of the woodwork to say "Hey I stopped posting in TG because of the aggroposting" or something to that effect and I wasn't shocked to see goons say TG was one of the worst places on SA. However, lots of people were also saying "Gee I didn't notice this user's posts being bad" which I also agree with; TG had been quiet for a bit, at least in the circles I run in until this thread got bumped. It reminds me of how there's a particularly bad poster in a different subforum that I know about, and since following a thread out there I thought was unusual how mundanely they've been posting. Well, I think most subforums are like this; usually good until the bad stuff happens and breaks the membrane of pond scum that formed on the surface. Then, once people are discussing a person instead of a game, the target gets defensive, people dogpile, others decide to butt in with their own dissatisfaction withe mod action/inaction or posting enemies, people complain in white noise posts instead of just reporting and moving on, and it just goes nowhere good. Obviously, there has to be a certain allowance for more elaborate and sensitive discussion within a feedback thread, but it can and will boil over particularly if it's about an individual. So here are my suggestions: Use buttons, and if someone complains about getting a sixer, just respond "it's a sixer lmao". If you must engage in a bad post, keep it short. If you must engage with a bad post at length, keep it private. If you must engage with a bad post at length in public, don't get your hopes up.
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Sep 16, 2023 06:27
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I see. Thank you for clarifying. I do do a lot of things over PM. Sometimes I feel that a conversation has to be in public, because it involves other posters, or is demonstrative of a principle I want a whole thread (or here, in this one, a whole community) to be aware of. Sometimes I just don't think about it and  .Walking on eggshells was one case with one person. Generally I'm not walking on eggshells, but I do need to choose my words more carefully sometimes and I'm aware of that. And it wasn't at all about wanting to be loved. Like... that's a surprising and weird take to me. There was zero chance that Arivia was ever going to like me. I think it was a phrasing that resonated with many people, though. You find yourself doing this with volatile people, trying not to set them off. And it's a big red flag, as others have noted; why should you have to do this? Do they make an equal effort to avoid triggering confrontations with others? Even in conversations where everything seems fine, people are maybe editing themselves and being painfully careful, and that sucks but isn't very obvious from just reading all the posts. Anyway. I'm not likely to ever respond to someone complaining about a sixer with "it's just a sixer lmao", because I take complaints seriously, but the cool thing is most of the people here in TG are actually open to having an adult conversation if they want clarity about why they got a sixer, why the other person didn't, or whatever. And lastly, it is disheartening to hear from people who think TG is a particularly hostile place. I disagree with that, but each of our experiences is subjective, so I'm not trying to discount negative experiences people have had. I've gotten a view into around forty or fifty active threads in TG over the past three years, and only about... five? ever have any reports or problems. Like, ever. If you are hanging around in the painting thread or the historicals thread or the yu-gi-oh thread or the gloomhaven thread, and you see bad posting, I invite you (this is the collective you) to file the first report that thread has had in years. I wander into random threads from time to time just to see what's going on and it's almost always just more or less chill people chatting and discussing games. I can understand if someone wandered into one of a handful of threads at its worst that they could be put off. I suspect there's one or two threads that have had occasional problems in the hobby forum or the bicycle forum or the camping forum, too. That's just SA. It's not an excuse, though, we need to keep working on the areas of TG that have problems, but I do think it's worth being proud of the fact that the vast majority of TG threads are calm, peaceful, fun, good places to chat about games, and even the ones that have issues from time to time are still pretty good like 95% of the time. In my opinion. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Sep 16, 2023 |
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Sep 16, 2023 07:14
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Leperflesh posted:Honestly I did too. Like 95% of her posts were fine and many of them were cool and good. I think you've caught both sides of the coin here. If someone makes a good post people will point and go "hey that's a good post", but it doesn't excuse the 5% of blisteringly aggressive posts that stick with people and drive them away. Hitting the buttons for sixers more seems to be the solution because it can quash the terrible posting but still encourage the good posts.
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Sep 16, 2023 11:07
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ilmucche posted:I think you've caught both sides of the coin here. If someone makes a good post people will point and go "hey that's a good post", but it doesn't excuse the 5% of blisteringly aggressive posts that stick with people and drive them away. If you want the good posts but not the bad posts then bake ramps into the rules. "Is this post sufficiently right/funny/cool enough to risk the sixer" is a different mental calculus to "Is this post sufficiently right/funny/cool enough to risk a third strike week of no posting".
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Sep 16, 2023 13:13
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The chain probe is the IKs ramp
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Sep 16, 2023 13:23
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In my experience moderating elsewhere, you do have to care about how you appear, or you wind up in the doom spiral where people are pissed off and react to everything you do poorly. From the times I’ve seen good moderators driven off here (not Trad Games), the same holds on SA. It’s not so important how you look to the person you’re probing or calming down or whatever, but you can’t lose the forum as a whole.
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Sep 16, 2023 13:57
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Leperflesh posted:I do do a lot of things over PM. Less of this imo you get a lot of text to use in a probe reason
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Sep 16, 2023 15:29
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Leperflesh posted:If you are hanging around in the painting thread or the historicals thread or the yu-gi-oh thread or the gloomhaven thread, and you see bad posting, I invite you (this is the collective you) to file the first report that thread has had in years. Multiple people itt have told you that they just don't report any more because they don't think it will achieve anything
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Sep 16, 2023 15:56
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There are probably also people left over from the interregnum who never learned reporting could achieve anything. I'm certain a lot of the aggressive posting from a few years ago was learnt when there was no active moderation and the only way to get someone to go away if they sucked, or to deal with trolling, was to relentlessly shout them down. It may not be like that any more, but if people from that period don't think reporting works then it would be unsurprising to see them fall back on that. That said, the painting thread was like a church in Highlander back then, so no reports there makes sense.
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Sep 16, 2023 18:30
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:That said, the painting thread was like a church in Highlander back then, so no reports there makes sense.
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Sep 16, 2023 23:33
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The former.
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Sep 16, 2023 23:46
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Tarnop posted:Multiple people itt have told you that they just don't report any more because they don't think it will achieve anything I get that we have some serial reporters who mash the button because their posting enemy is wrong on the internet, and our tendency not to take their side via probations would lead to them maybe thinking reporting was pointless. For those rare cases, it mostly is, because their reports suck. That stuff is not TG-specific, it's a general SA-wide trend. There's not a lot of these folks in SA, though. And even the ones who generate a lot of "misc"s sometimes have a strong hit, I don't just dismiss a report because it's from a known bad reporter. But a thread that hasn't generated a single report in my three years as a mod? Yeah I'm going to reasonably assume that's a thread with no serious problem posters. I do my best but there's simply too many  posted daily in TG for a mod team to read them all, and that is not something we're asked to do. We cannot effectively moderate this forum without the help of posters hitting the report button. I know sometimes it can seem like nothing happened but at the bare minimum, a permanent, referenceable record is created. Regardless of how they're filed, all reports are still easily searchable and reviewable by mods, forever. We can see that someone's getting reported a lot, and the stated reasons why, even if no probations were issued. If you file a report, it appears mods do nothing, and you want to know why? You can always ask. Send me or another TG mod a PM. I go to the trouble of typing a reason in every time I file a report, like 95% of the time, unless it's blazingly obvious. Rarely, we may not be able to give a reason without disclosing some private info, but most of the time we could totally tell you. Lastly: the structure of the system is flawed. I don't like that once a post is reported by one person, nobody else can report it. That can obscure the cases when there's 20 people pissed about one person's really bad post. While we don't need 20 people's typed-out reasoning, I wish I could at least see a count, and a list of reporters. I also kinda wish that sixers had an automatic delay built in, so that the six hour period would start from the next time that user logs in/is active. Sometimes someone is literally asleep for their entire probation. The 12 and 18 hour probation lengths are under-used, I think IKs ought to be able to issue at least 12s automatically. They're less likely to go unnoticed by the offender.
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Sep 17, 2023 03:17
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I’m gonna reiterate since the thread got closed right after I said this: Please do NOT just document the actions you take in some mod forum only thread. Document them publicly, through sixers, even if they are just a pm and the probe reason is “acting [x], sent a pm.” The only offense you should not do a sixer for is the initial post you make in a thread telling someone to knock it off. Also, that should almost always be the default response before going to PMs. Anyway, the sixer communicates a few things: 1) You are a mod first and they should not expect favors even if you’re forum friends 2) their actions have actual consequences 3) the community sees you doing something 3.5) the person who gets probed freaks out and demonstrates that they do not want to be “held accountable for their actions” Also, I get you can’t read every thread or post. However, you are a mod. If you decide to implement this new policy encouraging people to report and promising better publicly facing action, feel free to post in every active megathread with the copy paste policy. Ask the IKs to help. The hat is encourages people to report. If you get reports you don’t agree with but are good faith, maybe at least address them in the thread. Show that someone is looking at them. Just as a note, almost every serious complaint with SA seems to be about a lack of moderation rather than overmoderation. Err on the side of the button. Hell, if you don’t agree with my post, hit me with a sixer. Please.
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Sep 17, 2023 04:26
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I understand you want mods doing things to be more visible, so people in threads can see that their reporting and complaints aren't being ignored, and we need to do better on that. Yes. For point 1: Nobody gets favors from me for being "forum friends" with me. I am extremely scrupulous about this. Extremely. If someone I consider a forum friend is reported, I do not handle that report. We have enough folks around that there's no need for me to do that. Fortunately I typed out a bunch more stuff about this but I just deleted it because on reflection I think what you're asking for is something that should be considered forums-wide, not just for TG. There are good reasons to not call out the fact that a post was reported, including a potential chilling effect on reporting, the potential to derail a thread with discussion about a miscellaneous nothingburger post that got someone to raise one eyebrow, and the additional workload on mod time. You have given some arguments for why we should do it anyway. I feel like that debate is above my pay grade, at least a bit. Although maybe if you can point to any other SA subforum where the mods are doing what you want, I can talk to them, crib off their expertise a bit?
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Sep 17, 2023 06:10
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Leperflesh posted:I understand you want mods doing things to be more visible, so people in threads can see that their reporting and complaints aren't being ignored, and we need to do better on that. Yes. This is a unique subforum. It is one that anyone outside of the culture would think (d&d, board games, Magic the Gathering, and warhammer painting) would be the most easy going forum possible, outside of maybe magic. I am asking for extra accountability from you because in my experience of the past few years people have felt like you are not doing anything when you have in fact been doing so. Again, if someone should get a PM from a mod, they should get a sixer imo. It’s not a black mark. Any personal mod action outside a post should get a sixer. You’re asking why I think this should be outside regular SA rules. I am going to give you some mean advice but something I am basing 2-3 years of feedback on that I’ve read. First, leperflesh, you work very hard and it’s very obvious. You have stuck around very long because everyone respects that. You really try. Second: you are Wishy washy about almost everything. Like the board game thread. We had two new users one of whom everyone hated and you decided the best action was a new ik that lead to one of our best posters leaving. That was a wrong decision entirely on you that you need to deal with. If you had just forum banned the user that all the thread regulars hated, that would not have happened. They still post to this day btw. None of their posts add anywhere near the value that the actual board game designer did. YOU hosed THAT UP. THATS ALL YOU. I’m doing all caps because I’m loving angry that you being wishy washy lost us a literal game design god. And yes. Leperflesh. You should feel like you lost us those posters. You did. Bad modding. Lack of support. And knowing not to give them Modship in the first place. Third: again just loving document every mod action you take. And do it publicly. Like it’s not much to ask. Document every pm.
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Sep 17, 2023 07:18
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Well, it's good to be reminded of the motivation for the special rules you're proposing, and to understand that it's really just about me, and not about TG moderation in general. I have responded at great volume to the criticisms about those events, and I do not feel it will be productive to do so further.
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Sep 17, 2023 07:54
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fr0id posted:This is a unique subforum. It is one that anyone outside of the culture would think (d&d, board games, Magic the Gathering, and warhammer painting) would be the most easy going forum possible, outside of maybe magic. This is pompous nonsense lol. decisions are made by consensus and after consultation, there aren't any mods going crazy at the switch. And no we aren't going to start sixering people whenever we pm them that's insane. To be clear there are any number of people posting in this thread right now who could easily be banned on the standards being proposed (aggressive, annoying, long rap sheets), but we aren't going to because they also often post well, make funny, thoughtful, good posts. That's what this place is, it's a machine for making good posts. When the balance shifts enough, sure, then they have to go. But until that time mods will keep doing what they can to foster good posts and deal with bad ones, whether that's comments, probes or pms.
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Sep 17, 2023 08:57
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