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I've read Post Captain a couple of times and it's so sublte that if it wasn't for a reference later in the series, which is also kind of subtle, I'd still be wondering if Jack and Diana were actually banging. And was Stephen too? I think so. Very vague but that's O'Brian.
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Sep 17, 2023 00:51
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And the bear thing was so well done I didn't pick up on it until he spoke.
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Sep 17, 2023 00:52
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I loved Post Captain when I first read it, but I had depression brain, and Stephen's nadir was like sickos.gif for me. Every now and then I remember the dead puppy floating on the Plymouth. And also his suicide attempt on the Goodwin Sands, which may be the kind of thing other people miss as well, or perhaps deny. (I think that was in PC? Not sure anymore, past due for a reread tbh.) vvvv It reads as veiled impulsive suicide attempt to me, but yeah Stephen can probably explain it to others, and perhaps even himself, as going to get his (lead-soled) boots. Sax Solo fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Sep 17, 2023 |
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Sep 17, 2023 01:56
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Whoa I never thought that was a suicide attempt...I just thought he lost his shoes?
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Sep 17, 2023 02:34
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I've officially reached the point of fast-forwarding through the non-ship sections of Post Captain. They're well-written, but god I hate love triangles, and a love triangle centering on someone like Diana is even worse. I'm sure she'll end up with Stephen in the end, too, which means she's going to be around for a long time to come. Hopefully she becomes markedly less horrible to everyone around her once she's married. Gotta admit it's been a frustrating read. I picked up this series again because I was looking for more Good Platonic Friend-Time Sea Adventures and instead everyone is miserable, and even the at-sea sections are kind of unpleasant because of how wretched a ship the Polychrest is. Does the series return to the vibe of the first book after this one is done?
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Sep 17, 2023 02:54
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At least as good, if not better. Stay your course!
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Sep 17, 2023 02:58
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The end of post Captain is great and the third book of a fantastic end of the first leg of the journey.
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Sep 17, 2023 05:40
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You gotta have bad times to make the good times real, my good sea bro
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Sep 17, 2023 05:56
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Keep on truckin'. (Or sailin'?) The series has some really good arcs especially later on. I can't imagine reading them when they were being published, waiting years in between books.
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Sep 17, 2023 06:42
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Kestral posted:Hopefully she becomes markedly less horrible to everyone around her once she's married. Yeah sure
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Sep 17, 2023 13:46
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Diana owns (I also felt similarly while reading Post Captain, and kept reading. Keep going! It's great)
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Sep 17, 2023 16:02
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I think Diana comes off as much less awful when you consider her position in society. She clearly enjoys Stephen's company from the start, but she also is very practical about what she needs in a relationship. She quite literally cannot afford to marry for love and Stephen is not seen as a good prospect. She isn't actively trying to be cruel, she's just trying to look out for herself.
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Sep 17, 2023 16:44
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I'm only on Fortune of War, but it was Desolation Island where the writing style really started to click with me. I'm very excited to reread the first 2 eventually.
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Sep 17, 2023 17:50
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There must be something wrong with me, because I just finished The Far Side of the World and was thinking it needed more non-ship sections. I also like Jane Austen, so that might be why I apparently appreciated Post Captain more than most people.
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Sep 17, 2023 19:02
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Kestral posted:I've officially reached the point of fast-forwarding through the non-ship sections of Post Captain. They're well-written, but god I hate love triangles, and a love triangle centering on someone like Diana is even worse. I'm sure she'll end up with Stephen in the end, too, which means she's going to be around for a long time to come. Hopefully she becomes markedly less horrible to everyone around her once she's married. You too, huh? I first bounced off of Post Captain for basically this reason some years back. This time I'm charging through and I've heard SO many good things about the rest of the series...
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Sep 17, 2023 19:13
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Diana deserves better than the average POB-reader's opinion, I think. I'd say it's mostly Stephen's fault for pursuing her unreasonably, but she should see they are a terrible match. She uses Stephen, but Stephen begs to be used. I like to think that he sees her too much through his naturalist eyes; she is a perfect creature he wants to witness and in some abstract sense capture and own. Ultimately, she is the hero in her own story, which we don't really get to see. A friend of mine floated a fun theory about Diana -- she's a spy (for the French, let's say). There's no direct support for this in the books, but on the other hand it fits so well. E.g. how she is always running off in seemingly random directions (much like Stephen...) and attaching herself to influential political players. If Stephen's ignorance seems unlikely, well, a) this is a man with a strong capability for lying to himself, and b) it's a classic spy story trope to miss the traitor under your nose and close to your heart. I think it's a fine theory which I don't believe at all. It's a great premise for a fanfic.
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Sep 17, 2023 19:20
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I like that parallel that the exact kinds of things Stephen does to fight Tyranny Diana does to just try and get a fair shake in a man's world.
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Sep 17, 2023 21:16
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Sax Solo posted:Diana deserves better than the average POB-reader's opinion, I think. I'd say it's mostly Stephen's fault for pursuing her unreasonably, but she should see they are a terrible match. She uses Stephen, but Stephen begs to be used. I like to think that he sees her too much through his naturalist eyes; she is a perfect creature he wants to witness and in some abstract sense capture and own. Ultimately, she is the hero in her own story, which we don't really get to see. There actually is kinda direct support for this in Desolation Island/Fortune of War it's more of just a matter of how aware she was of it. But, she was translating documents (before the war with the Americans) to where she would have knowledge on the French connections , and she's no dummy, so...
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Sep 17, 2023 22:05
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Yeah I always thought that she was an agent for Johnson and Stephen was in deep denial about it.
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Sep 17, 2023 23:42
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She was working for Mr. Johnson. It was a Shadowrun story all along.
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Sep 18, 2023 00:26
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Diana is great, but the first time she appears her scenes drag quite a bit and the book is a much different feel than the one before it. I love the character but the way she is introduced doesn't do her favors. I'm excited to reread Post Captain now.
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Sep 18, 2023 00:27
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Sure Diana is a handful but counterpoint she is hot AF. So hot she is literally hired to ride in a balloon in a later book.
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Sep 18, 2023 02:23
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AngusPodgorny posted:There must be something wrong with me, because I just finished The Far Side of the World and was thinking it needed more non-ship sections. I also like Jane Austen, so that might be why I apparently appreciated Post Captain more than most people. I mentioned this a little while ago, because while the sailing aspect is the thing everyone talks about in these books I think he is equally as skilled with writing spycraft stuff on shore. Fortune of War is my favourite because of how much we get to see of Stephen being a spy in Boston. I finished up Nutmeg over the weekend, I feel like Patrick O'Brian must really loving hate Australia because drat every character just shits all over it, but it was fun to read about Stephen trekking through areas I know quite well and have visited. Stephens reunion with Padeen in the hospital was very sweet and touching, and I like how after dropping off the Islander girls at the orphanage he recognises Jemmy Ducks' distress and is like, "here's some money, the pub is over there and I'll see you tomorrow"
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Sep 18, 2023 04:15
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O’Brian says in one of these that his vision of early Australia (very early, the colony was like 20 years old when they showed up) is based on the nonfiction book The Fatal Shore. which is itself an interesting read, makes it seem pretty much unbearably bleak and oppressive existence at that stage, with a tiny population who almost all didn’t want to be there.
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Sep 18, 2023 04:34
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skasion posted:O’Brian says in one of these that his vision of early Australia (very early, the colony was like 20 years old when they showed up) is based on the nonfiction book The Fatal Shore. which is itself an interesting read, makes it seem pretty much unbearably bleak and oppressive existence at that stage, with a tiny population who almost all didn’t want to be there. Actually I've heard of that, I might have to add it to the list.
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Sep 18, 2023 05:09
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jazzyjay posted:Sure Diana is a handful but counterpoint she is hot AF. So hot she is literally hired to ride in a balloon in a later book. I just got through that section of The Letter of Marque where they describe it and I really wish I could see it. In my head it's just a crayon drawing.
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Sep 18, 2023 13:49
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Sax Solo posted:Diana deserves better than the average POB-reader's opinion, I think. I'd say it's mostly Stephen's fault for pursuing her unreasonably, but she should see they are a terrible match. She uses Stephen, but Stephen begs to be used. I like to think that he sees her too much through his naturalist eyes; she is a perfect creature he wants to witness and in some abstract sense capture and own. Ultimately, she is the hero in her own story, which we don't really get to see. I agree with this, and I think there's a bit of a parallel with Brett in The Sun Also Rises, where if you read it from the protagonist's perspective you get the impression that she and he are the perfect pair but it just doesn't work out (or at least that was my first reading) but if you read it more neutrally then it's clear that she's a woman who creates that experience in the men she interacts with. I used to think that Diana and Stephen were the classic storm-crossed lovers, but as I get older I see it more and more as a story where he's forcing a relationship that doesn't really fit. I think she's very fond of him, even in love with him, but they'd both be happier if they moved on. Stephen just believes that's impossible and she's his One True Love, but I think that's his hangup and not hers.
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Sep 18, 2023 17:21
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Some prime book discussion here shipmates, prime.Notahippie posted:I agree with this, and I think there's a bit of a parallel with Brett in The Sun Also Rises, where if you read it from the protagonist's perspective you get the impression that she and he are the perfect pair but it just doesn't work out (or at least that was my first reading) but if you read it more neutrally then it's clear that she's a woman who creates that experience in the men she interacts with. I used to think that Diana and Stephen were the classic storm-crossed lovers, but as I get older I see it more and more as a story where he's forcing a relationship that doesn't really fit. I think she's very fond of him, even in love with him, but they'd both be happier if they moved on. Stephen just believes that's impossible and she's his One True Love, but I think that's his hangup and not hers. Definitely true that Stephen is kidding himself about Diana being the one for him. She's not, she's just exceptionally beautiful, wild and free (at least at first) and that's what he loves. It's not a healthy committed relationship in the way we would understand it. I think they do become a happy enough couple in a rather friendly/distant way, but Diana does feel free to leave whenever it suits her. I definitely think Diana knew what was going on with Johnson and Wogan (remember she barely escaped arrest in England at the start of Desolation Island), probably thought of it as not explicitly against British interests given that started before the war of 1812 broke out. But in it up to her neck, and Stephen either wouldn't admit it to himself, or actively used his influence in the intelligence department to get her out of any consequences. skasion posted:O’Brian says in one of these that his vision of early Australia (very early, the colony was like 20 years old when they showed up) is based on the nonfiction book The Fatal Shore. which is itself an interesting read, makes it seem pretty much unbearably bleak and oppressive existence at that stage, with a tiny population who almost all didn’t want to be there. I love the whole bit of the hardened salts' universal reaction to Maturin leaving the girls at an orphanage, which is on the face of it a proper and responsible thing to do. "What, in a place like this!?" It's very efficient story-telling, communicating the awfulness of the colony, the decency of the sailors and their acceptance of the girls, and how Stephen's attempt to do the right thing has gone astray. Sax Solo posted:I loved Post Captain when I first read it, but I had depression brain, and Stephen's nadir was like sickos.gif for me. Every now and then I remember the dead puppy floating on the Plymouth. And also his suicide attempt on the Goodwin Sands, which may be the kind of thing other people miss as well, or perhaps deny. (I think that was in PC? Not sure anymore, past due for a reread tbh.) Holy poo poo I never even considered that. I will have to reread it to see if it's just ambiguity or I really agree, but what an interesting perspective!
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Sep 18, 2023 18:12
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Genghis Cohen posted:I love the whole bit of the hardened salts' universal reaction to Maturin leaving the girls at an orphanage, which is on the face of it a proper and responsible thing to do. "What, in a place like this!?" It's very efficient story-telling, communicating the awfulness of the colony, the decency of the sailors and their acceptance of the girls, and how Stephen's attempt to do the right thing has gone astray. In the later books there is an arc of Stephen learning to accept responsibility, I think. I had forgotten about the girls & the orphanage, but there is also the reason he was in Australia in the first place: to rescue Padeen, whom he has slowly realized he was kinda responsible for. A lot of the later books to me is about Stephen kind of "assembling his family". (Whereas Jack gets very little growth during this time, just like repeated nightmares of dwindling, riding a shrinking horse. I suppose he settles into his ancestral power a bit, becoming a judge, but it doesn't seem to increase Jack's happiness.)
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Sep 18, 2023 20:04
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Sax Solo posted:In the later books there is an arc of Stephen learning to accept responsibility, I think. I had forgotten about the girls & the orphanage, but there is also the reason he was in Australia in the first place: to rescue Padeen, whom he has slowly realized he was kinda responsible for. A lot of the later books to me is about Stephen kind of "assembling his family". (Whereas Jack gets very little growth during this time, just like repeated nightmares of dwindling, riding a shrinking horse. I suppose he settles into his ancestral power a bit, becoming a judge, but it doesn't seem to increase Jack's happiness.) I think Stephen becomes more and more the viewpoint character in the later books. Jack is 'the secret man of the world' in his own way and we see that largely through Stephen's eyes. Could be because he has worn the mask of command so long it is a major part of him. Could be that O'Brian enjoyed writing Stephen's internal life more. I know a lot of people have hypothesized he was more similar to Stephen in temperament, although I would be very wary of drawing conclusions about any author, especially as O'Brian seems to have worn a bit of a mask himself.
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Sep 18, 2023 22:11
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I’m still confused by how O’Brian pretended to be Irish. Like, why?
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Sep 18, 2023 22:16
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StrixNebulosa posted:I’m still confused by how O’Brian pretended to be Irish. Like, why? To profit by their reputation for honesty and plain dealing? But the heart of man is unsearchable, and perhaps he was only pursuing an illicit amour, or escaping from his creditors. Nah, I have no idea really. Best guess is he just really liked the place and the character of its people (and perhaps how it was seen by others?) and maybe on some level wished he had been Irish?
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Sep 18, 2023 23:50
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Sax Solo posted:Diana deserves better than the average POB-reader's opinion, I think. I'd say it's mostly Stephen's fault for pursuing her unreasonably, but she should see they are a terrible match. She uses Stephen, but Stephen begs to be used. I like to think that he sees her too much through his naturalist eyes; she is a perfect creature he wants to witness and in some abstract sense capture and own. Ultimately, she is the hero in her own story, which we don't really get to see. I like this reading, it makes sense to me, I'm still on my first read through of the series so haven't really had a chance to dig in to it on many more levels than surface, I just like her because she does what the gently caress she wants, the antithesis of Jack who is so beholden to the service and it's rules and the routine of the ship. Strong and capable and a leader, but who would actually let him potter around and take all the time he wants on the islands they visit.
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Sep 19, 2023 01:59
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SimonSays posted:Yeah sure oh god. StrixNebulosa posted:You too, huh? I first bounced off of Post Captain for basically this reason some years back. This time I'm charging through and I've heard SO many good things about the rest of the series... Same. Normally around this time of year I switch to reading horror, but I'm going to try to get through book three before I make the switch, just to see the series blossom. Lemony posted:I think Diana comes off as much less awful when you consider her position in society. She clearly enjoys Stephen's company from the start, but she also is very practical about what she needs in a relationship. She quite literally cannot afford to marry for love and Stephen is not seen as a good prospect. She isn't actively trying to be cruel, she's just trying to look out for herself. Diana has perfectly reasonable motivations for rejecting Stephen's romantic advances and keeping him firmly as a friend. She should do that, we all need good friends! What isn't reasonable is how she actually behaves instead, which isn't practical and is definitely cruel in a way that can't be anything but deliberate. The correct way to handle Stephen is, "hey man, I like you as a friend, as I've said repeatedly, so let's keep that, and please stop pursuing me romantically or we can't have nice things" and then sticking to that. And if he can't handle it, well, too bad, looks like you're not a good fit for each other as friends. Trying to have it both ways just hurts everyone. Stephen needs to get his poo poo together too and acquire better taste in partners, but Diana bears her share of fault here too.
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Sep 19, 2023 03:10
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StrixNebulosa posted:I’m still confused by how O’Brian pretended to be Irish. Like, why? He also probably invented work he did during the war and made up experiences sailing. I think he was just a liar, which helpfully is a fantastic trait for a novelist.
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Sep 19, 2023 03:17
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Diana is fascinating because it feels, in a lot of ways, like she's exercising and enjoying the power and cruelty she can display - and in some ways I can't even fault her for that, given that she, uh, doesn't have a lot of other means for exerting that kind of power in that society. This isn't to say that I absolve her, or that I'm not sure she wouldn't be the same kind of rear end in a top hat in the modern era, but... I can kind of see where she's coming from. idk. I need to read her more, it's honestly kind of cool to see a lady who is nuanced and interesting and an rear end in a top hat.
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Sep 19, 2023 03:18
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Diana strikes me as the typical Regency-era heroine, being independent and headstrong. She even has Sophia to contrast as the proper cousin. But it's not a romance, so she doesn't get a Mr. Darcy-like love interest to tie everything up neatly. EDIT: Well at least as far as I know, not having actually finished the series.
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Sep 19, 2023 04:44
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I've always supposed that Stephen is who O'Brian saw himself as and Jack was who he wanted to be. This bio gives a good overview of his background and upbringing, while acknowledging that a lot of what was said of O'Brian (Born Patrick Russ) after his books became popular was false. http://www.hmssurprise.org/patrick-and-mary-obrian One point I didn't know about was that some biographers have suggested that Jack is based on Patrick's brother, Mike, a pilot who was shot down and killed over Germany in '43. Bizarrely, Mike Russ joined the Royal Australian Air Force under the psuedonym Mike O'Brien - years before Patrick changed his surname to O'Brian. https://www.ozatwar.com/russ.htm So my guess is that O'Brians' name change was for a personal reason, people assumed a lot about him when he got famous, his secretive nature meant he never bothered to contradict people's assumptions and then got annoyed when the truth comes out.
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Sep 19, 2023 10:41
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I don’t see how it gets to be non-political. I mean, it was in 1966 that an IRA splinter group blew up a statue of Nelson in the center of Dublin. And there’s still a big monument to his contemporary Wellington. And another to an IRA guy who fought with the Nazis against the British. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35787116 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/a-bit-of-welly-the-iron-duke-s-irishness-1.1546456 https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/06/24/sean-russell-nazi-collaborator-statue-fairview-park-painted-pride-colours-leo-varadkar/ The books are fairly clearly taking a side on what’s still a live political issue, though thankfully not as bloody a one as it was a generation ago.
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Sep 19, 2023 13:07
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It drives me perfectly insane that Jack is more concerned about clean dishes and utensils than Stephen, the doctor is. 
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Sep 19, 2023 14:51
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