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radmonger posted:The Elmal subcult of Yelmalio, when it’s published, will very likely be associated with Yu-Kargzant or someone, and so have Firespear (which is in the Red Book of Magic, but not taught by any published cult write up). I'd be happier accepting that if I didn't own multiple paper books that took the opposite approach. Just like I'd be happier if the latest game materials didn't nail down Gbaji as Nysalor, not Arkat. Obviously Nysalor is the good that does evil, and Arkat is the evil that does good, and Gbaji is an ultimate betrayal deity. But while Illumination certainly represents a form of betrayal and is closely associated with Nysalor, Arkat is not only clearly Illuminated himself, he betrays every single cult he joins. And it's relatively clear that Arkat "defeating" Nysalor may have been less "matter and anti-matter explosion and Arkat is what was left" and more "two sides of the same being merge and what's left opts to call itself Arkat." The whole point of the story is that it's open to interpretation and that attempting to objectively identify which "really was" Gbaji misses the whole point while also disarming the uneasy aspect of what Gbaji represents. It's the Chaos that hides within and looks like you. Only the sort of person who sees the ending of John Carpenter's The Thing and insists that if only one of these two characters survives to be rescued, he by definition cannot be The Thing, would want the Arkat who walks away from that conflict to objectively have triumphed over Gbaji. To return to the questions I asked: if I were running a campaign either under the old rules, or by ignoring the bits I don't like of the new rules, the answer of "can this Elmal worshiper recover rune spells/points at a Yelmalian Sun Temple" would be conditional. From a meta-game perspective, I'm probably inclined to allow it so the PC has more capability to deal with whatever is coming next. But it's the ways in which the in-game implications can add complications or tell interesting stories that matters to me, too, from that meta-game perspective. Elmal worshiper is part of cult that sees Elmal as subcult of Yelmalio: Obviously the prayers will work, and there's no dilemma to begin with. Elmal worshiper is part of Elmal-separate cult that vehemently opposes the Sun Temple as outsiders and interlopers: Either they'd never make the attempt to begin with, or doing so will succeed and the worshiper may be called an apostate unless he stays extremely quiet about it happening and nobody else finds out. Middle-of-the-road outcome: The prayers work, and the whole thing is justified as an accommodation of sorts, but the PC may become a lever the Sun Templars use to try to bring Elmal under the big Dome with them. If the players are interested, that could become a big campaign thing which eventually results in something ranging from a holy war between the two factions and a compromise of some sort that brings them together. (Obviously the campaign could start with these issues already settled and the Sun Domers being one big happy cult, but that disarms all of the story-making potential.) In practice, the question may also have to do with cultural relationships as well as personal relationships. Maybe the head of this Sun Temple refuses to allow an Elmali to enter. Maybe the Elmal PC in question is related to the head of the Sun Temple and the attempt working gets spun as based on their relationship and not on a relationship between the gods. There's lots of options. I understand why rules designers might tend towards writing rules that take esoteric cosmological questions that also happen to be deeply relevant to actual play and make definitions to keep GMs and players on the same page and answer as many of these questions as possible. I just think doing so means taking away interesting tools that Glorantha is especially good at handing to GMs and players, in the name of making things easier and consistent. Asking "will this work in game" is important, and being able to answer that question is important. But I don't agree that it necessarily limits or determines in-game behavior. If you look at people's beliefs about vaccination, for instance, the established fact that the polio vaccine not only works extremely well, but that it has virtually eradicated polio, isn't necessarily offering much force against anti-vaxxer rhetoric. Partly that's because other vaccines aren't as effective as the polio vaccine; partly that's because a claim about the trade-offs between potential risk of the vaccine versus risk of the disease doesn't care about effectiveness (indeed, arguing that polio or measles have almost been wiped out can justify opposition to those specific vaccinations, and when polio or measles reappear that doesn't prove the vaccines are good, it proves that they failed to wipe those diseases out). At least in my Glorantha, thinking that you can prove something about Yelmalio and Elmal by testing to see if they can regain rune magic at each others' shrines is just a slight variation on how the Godlearners functioned. The truth is that it'd probably work, and if it doesn't you can definitely find reasons external to the "same deity" claim you want to test, but it wouldn't work 100% of the time and if it did work, it might or might not bear on the question you're actually testing, because magic and myth are real in Glorantha, and both the Law and Truth rune are visibly associated with the Illusion rune. Worse, if you could conclusively prove the two deities are the same god, you might have been wrong until you did that and then made yourself right because everyone believed you. (I'd expect the fissures to take longer to display themselves than with the God Swap, but frankly I'd never expect consensus on the issue in the first place.) The cosmological implications of that resonate through the setting, IMO, and raise the stakes on questions like whether the Lunar enterprise to incorporate Chaos into the world would indeed have the effect of bringing new beings peaceably into Glorantha and thus breaking a cycle of violent admission last seen with the Storm deities, or whether it would actually break down reality and turn everything back into Chaos. Based on all the available evidence, BOTH possibilities are plausible, but obviously an Orlanthi hearing a Lunar mystic ask whether everything realizing it's actually Chaos would be destructive, or a freeing revelation, is likely to lead to the Orlanthi launching an attack. "I'll prove this isn't poisonous by feeding it to you" isn't an experiment most people are going to be confident about when they don't trust the experimenter in the first place. And all this isn't even anti-science. The college physics lab I was in had lousy equipment: the wooden planes we used for testing were visibly warped, for example. That meant that our results were accurate to the equipment we had, and also wrong, because that inclined plane wasn't at a consistent incline plus the warping meant the surface was deformed in every direction. The lab assistant had us "adjust" our numbers to fit the actual, established scientific results. Had we been able to accurately measure the equipment we were using (which frankly would have taken more math than the class expected, as well as equipment we obviously didn't have if they couldn't even spend the money to replace what we did have), we may potentially have been able to measure what was actually going on. In Glorantha, though, that expectation of objectivity is itself called into question by constant experience, because someone can go back into the source code of reality and make changes to it outside of Time. I happen to think that also makes it a great setting for an RPG.
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Sep 16, 2023 16:36
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Magnusth posted:Hey, first, sorry if I came off a little aggressive. Elmal is dear to my heart and I'm used to fighting old grognards about it, so apologies if I came out swinging. Funny you say that, because my impression was that the people defending Elmal were the grognards upset that things were being changed from how they used to (and should) be. I guess it's all a matter of how long one is in the fandom. I didn't see you as coming out swinging or anything like that, so no need to apologize. Magnusth posted:Remember, myths aren't just things you learn, they're things you do, things which are manifest around you in the social and physical world. Sometimes, it makes sense that a myth may be a leaser understanding of another, if it represents a less complete understanding and explanation of the world around you, but Elmal and Yelmalio represent very different things. There's some truth to that seeing as how Elmal was originally the sun and not the sun's light like Yelmalio is, but I don't think that it's a stretch to say that his myths can easily be re-contextualized to fit within broader Yelmalio myths. The Orlanthi are concerned with integrating a foreign god-and his worshippers-with a rival claim to be ruler of the world into their society in a subordinate role so they only tell of the times where Elmal helped the Orlanthi, and emphasize that he wasn't doing this as an equal sovereign or free agent but as a willing subordinate. Where Yelmalians see contractual payment Orlanthi see a swearing of fealty. The Orlanthi don't care about Yelmalio helping the elves or other non-Storm peoples, in fact they want the opposite because Elmal having loyalty and obligations beyond Orlanth challenges their desired hierarchy. If Elmal is supposed to be the sun then as I said previously I think it makes Orlanth and the Lightbringer's Quest less interesting and compelling since instead of bringing back his slain enemy and trying to work things out he's taking power from a defeated foe in order to make his own subordinate more useful in order shore up his own rule of the cosmos. It's exactly the sort of thing a proud Orlanthi would want to gloss over, just like a Yelmite is going to want to downplay Yelm's agreement to compromise, but however much they want to ignore it the world is split between Sky and Storm, and now Moon too and that's the way the gods made it. Magnusth posted:To be clear, what I meant was simply that it doesn't have to be true that Yelmalio is more powerful because he was able to convert people. I'll comment on the mechanics and powers stuff a little further down. But is there any reason he shouldn't be stronger? I ask this because another common refrain I've encountered is that Elmal is better/stronger because he wasn't beat up like Yelmalio was at the Hill of Gold. It reminds me of Virgin vs. Chad memes. In fact that's another commonly raised point I've seen, Yelmalio the incel virgin vs. Elmal the happily married family man. So much of the discussion that I've seen hinges not just on how they're different but that Elmal is better both as a person and as a source of mechanical benefits. So I admit I'm suspicious of Elmal defenders as people who want to eat their cake and have it too, that they want Elmal to be quantifiably better as well as a wholly different entity. This might all just be in my head but that's where I'm coming from. Given how Monrogh's revelation is described it seems to me that the intention is that he proved Elmal is Yelmalio by demonstrating greater powers derived from a more complete understanding of who Elmal really was. And so I wonder then that if in compromise people would be willing to accept having Elmal given separate status but at the cost of his implied inferiority made explicit. Magnusth posted:So, I went and looked this up. Storm tribe doesn't list Elmals runes, because HW makes different assumptions about how gods and runes work. His personal rune is called the sun rune, but doesn't match the "modern" sun rune, the circle with the dot. That rune is used in HW, but as far as I can tell, only as Yelm's personal rune. I thought elves loved Yelmalio because his light allowed plants to grow without the risk of heat causing them to burn? And that he had some frost resistance powers gained from his fight with Inora on the Hill of Gold? Also I don't find "he's always been this way so he should always be this way" a compelling argument given how much the setting has changed, such as the creation of Elmal himself. If the setting can't be changed in any way that might make existing fans dissatisfied then I think it'd be a less interesting one. The Malkioni would still be heavily based on medieval Europe, the Orlanthi would be vikings, and those who want Kralorela to be something other than orientalist fantasy China are out of luck because some people like it the way it is. But on the other hand I do think that there's a desire to sweep Elmal under the rug in RQ:G which I think is a mistake because it alienates fans of Elmal while also eliminating some interesting potential storylines from the game. I think that you can still have all the original interpretations of Elmal's myths but that they become more interesting because now they can also be seen in a new light cast by Yelmalio's versions too. There are some devout Elmali who still worship him and don't just call Yelmalio Elmal, and I'd like to learn more about them and how they've coped with the revelation and subsequent changes. To sum up my position I'd say that I think that Elmal-is-Yelmalio is a (at least potentially) more interesting option than having them be two completely separate gods, but that more should be done with Elmal even though I think there isn't going to be much done with him in the current system. radmonger posted:The Elmal subcult of Yelmalio, when it’s published, will very likely be associated with Yu-Kargzant or someone, and so have Firespear (which is in the Red Book of Magic, but not taught by any published cult write up). Isn't Firespear a spell Lodril grants? It would be a neat way to differentiate Elmal from Yelmalio though if Elmal gets Firespear because Orlanth gave him his spear back while Yelmalio gets Sunspear because he didn't sever his connection to Yelm.
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Sep 16, 2023 22:00
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The reduction of the number of runes in RQ:G mostly comes down to system stuff; there's no room for one-off runes. Urox doesn't have his Eternal Battle rune anymore, for example. I have a lot of problems with RQ:G, and that's one of them. The dissatisfaction the Elmal fans have for the current Elmal/Yelmalio situation, as I see it, comes down to three(ish) points: - The two gods describe two different mytho-historical structures and are from two very different cultures: one is preserverence and maintenance of tradition in times of hardship, the other is adaptation of existing methods to new conditions. - There's not much of a good reason given for why the Orlanthi, as a heroic culture, would have a large segment of their male population up stakes and move over en masse to a new god whose local worshipers are really into being mormon spartans. Your god is a big deal in Glorantha! Elmal and Yelmalio have some similar magic, since they're both sons of Yelm, but not that similar. It removes the entire cultural outlet the Orlanthi have for those with a strong affinity to the Fire rune. - Fans of Elmal feel like ~20 years of material is being haphazardly removed because Jeff Richard wants to appeal to oldheads with RQ:G. That's not the most charitable view, sure, but two games about playing Elmali just came out on steam. There was a big Elmal writeup in Kingdom of Heroes ~10 years ago, and in the Glorantha timescale that's recent. RQ:G doesn't even have a functional heroquesting system yet. If I was asked to come up with a reason for the Elmali moving over the Sun Dome, I'd probably say they were sheltering there from the Lunar occupation. The templars can look the Lunar governor in the eye and say that their new initiates received a divine revelation and were definitely not following a rebel god anymore. You could even take the angle that aggressive Lunar heroquesting was helping this along, which is something the Lunars already do other places. It's how Hon-Eel converted Tarsh, for example.
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Sep 16, 2023 23:01
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I don't know if there's that big a demand for Elmal and Yelmalio to be completely separate? Like, it's part of the appeal that they're suspiciously similar; the problem is that someone went and solved the mystery in the most boring way possible.
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Sep 16, 2023 23:11
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The war of the suns is also something that can be appealed to. Some revelaitons and other Gods can be similar but not the drat same. I also am somewhat reticent on the whole idea of "But this renders the Lightbringer quest less impactful". Orlanth had still killed the Big Sun and had then reintegrated a smaller version, but the World as a whole still needed the big sun to be resurrected.
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Sep 17, 2023 13:03
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wiegieman posted:The dissatisfaction the Elmal fans have for the current Elmal/Yelmalio situation, as I see it, comes down to three(ish) points: 1. The Dragon Pass Sun Domers are converted Elmali. Their culture is different from their previous Orlanthi culture but it's something they evolved into, and they were already adopting Dara Happan cultural practices like different plows and bringing in Yelm based objects of worship before they were Yelmalio worshipping. 2. The Elmali were already rebelling against the Orlanthi polity of Sartar due to Lunar influence and greater contact with the Yelm worshipping Dara Happan culture of Peloria. Worship of Yelmalio was seen as a way of solving that conflict by shifting from a god hostile towards Orlanth to one who was neutral. The break had already been made 3. Those games are about playing Elmali, but how many people are buycotting them for that reason as opposed to just playing Glorantha games, or buying them while ignorant of the setting and the metaphysical debate? And Six Ages is still on part two of six right? Who knows what the status of Elmal will end up being when the game is done. Josef bugman posted:The war of the suns is also something that can be appealed to. Some revelaitons and other Gods can be similar but not the drat same. Either Elmal is the Orlanthi Lightfore which means he's a parallel for Yelmalio, or he's the sun which means he's the Orlanthi parallel to Yelm (or he's some other, third, thing but if that's the case then what planetary body is he and why would that grant him the Fire rune?). If Elmal remained the sun in S.T. then the Lightbringer quest wouldn't have resurrected Yelm but instead have empowered Elmal to restore the world enough that it wasn't going to die (or they just had to bring back Ernalda with the Lifebringer quest and Yelm didn't need to come back or cede his power to Elmal). The Orlanthi don't see two suns where everyone else sees one after all, either the Big Sun was resurrected or he wasn't. This would mean that the Storm pantheon has fully integrated the sun into theirs in a clearly subordinate role, whereas the Sky pantheon hasn't integrated the Storm gods in the same way because they haven't subordinated the storm system that represents Orlanth and instead keep trying to find ways to eliminate him like the Windstop. It makes the Sky vs. Storm conflict one direction since the Orlanthi only need to defend themselves against Sky aggression and also means that the Orlanthi are "right" since they had a holistic cosmology that has a place for everything until the Red Moon screwed everything up.
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Sep 17, 2023 18:56
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TGG posted:All of this would be solved if we just put our faith in Gustbran who came to us all as the Many Fires in the Darkness, the Lord of Smiths, Greatest of the Lowfires, who shall repair the world and light the way in darkest winter. Unfortunately, this Elmal stuff is actually a symptom of Jeff saying that "all vaguely similar gods are the same" and Gustbran is actually affected by this. See: One of the major gods of Teshnos is this guy called Calyz, Calyz is the fire of man, patron of virility, the common man, the common uses of fire (cooking and metalworking) and the pleasures of the common man: E. G. sex. Now, he's often portrayed as either being nude or wearing a loincloth, while carrying a massive, phallic tool (a club) and wearing a crown. It sounds a lot like a certain central Genertelan fire god, doesn't it? A guy the commoners all like, utterly indispensable even if "real" fire cultists turn up their noses at them? That's right, it's Gustbran! Now, Teshnos has a lot of fire gods, but only a couple are really important. Here's another guy. His name is Solf. Solf is the god of Sell-Annihilation via Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll. In order to kill the self and achieve liberation, followers of him have to pursue gluttony, sexual deviance and the abuse of every single drug they can to the point where they, you know, actually die. His worship has to be strictly monitored because if widely adopted, entire regions can get depopulated. He is, to be frank, a terrifying god who no one in their right mind would worship: people do so in order to get out of their right minds. Now who is this guy you may ask? That's right, it's old Lodril. You know, god of the commoner of peloria? The god of doing the work you gotta, improving the lot of the common guy? Apparently they're the same because Solf is associated with volcanoes too! The point I am getting at here is that the Elmal/Yelmalio thing is, fittingly, just the tip of the spear. In the name of expedience (Jeff has stated a lot of this comes down to minimizing the number of cult writeups they have to do) and the personal view of Jeff (he's actually getting alarmingly close to saying "nothing the god learners did re: gods was actually wrong as such and has stated the monomyth is essentially correct) pretty much every regional god is getting done as a face of a far more well known god and as bad as that is on it's own: sometimes it leads to matchups like this, that do not really make any sense. His current project by the way, is wielding as much authorial and company fiat as possible to stop anyone from getting into the setting via sources that aren't the latest RQ:G books, up to and explicitly saying on a number of occasions: "Stop listening to anyone who talks about storm tribe or heroquest."
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Sep 18, 2023 12:11
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The sun is not just the one God though. The sun is not a one because it is many,because if it were One it could not be approached at all by the Many. Also alongside that but Jeff does not get to claim authorial Fiat over something where Glorantha will vary.
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Sep 18, 2023 13:46
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Josef bugman posted:The sun is not just the one God though. The sun is not a one because it is many,because if it were One it could not be approached at all by the Many. Ah, but you see, Yelmalio is the god of the lightfore, which is not the sun, so there can in fact be only one god there. Elmal is also not the real sun but also the lightfore too now. As for the actual sun, there's where authorial fiat is backed by company fiat: he owns Glorantha, so what he says, goes, you see?
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Sep 18, 2023 13:57
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I'm becoming increasingly happy that I have bought nothing of modern rune quest. I will make my own game if I must.
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Sep 18, 2023 14:04
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Josef bugman posted:I'm becoming increasingly happy that I have bought nothing of modern rune quest. I just play heroquest instead. In fact, right now I'm in a pretty good Prax game that is viciously anti-Jeff.
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Sep 18, 2023 14:13
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It’s explicitly not ‘all similar gods are the same’. Some similar cults are different gods, some different cults are similar gods. For example, all the Grain Godesses share a single cult write up, but they are noted as having distinct Rune Pools; you worship one, not the other. Lhankhor Mhy is Buserian, but Irripi Ontor is not. I feel some people are really missing an is/could/should distinction here. The God Learners were king of doing things that could be done, and were only really wrong about that when they were in the process of testing that boundary. They were a lot shakier of the corresponding ‘should’ question. Worshipping the purely farmer god Barntar, rather than the warrior/farmer/chieftain Orlanth, apparently objectively works. The ‘Worship Orlanth’ skill allows regaining Barntar rune magic. The rules serve to tell a player things their character could hardly be ignorant of. This is relevant to, but doesn’t determine, the politics of Dragon Pass. Because could is not should.
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Sep 18, 2023 14:20
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Josef bugman posted:I'm becoming increasingly happy that I have bought nothing of modern rune quest. I have been happy with 13th Age Glorantha for reasons like this. I just like Greg Staffords approach of not having a single truth.
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Sep 18, 2023 14:38
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I found this Greg Sez about Yelmalio and it's an interesting read because it talks about how Yelmalio has been known by different names in previous ages so it's up in the air as to whether the current Yelmalio is the same Yelmalio as has been previously worshipped. One section that addresses the question of why Elmali shifted to worshipping Yelmalio states: quote:In Sartar the great hero Monrogh established the cult. He originally worshipped Elmal, the sun of the Orlanthi pantheon, but followed other lights and entered into doctinal disputes with the Orlanthi priests who normally ranked over the sun. Monrogh was challenged by Prince Tarkalor of Sartar to reveal his god who was stronger than Elmal, and he revealed Yelmalio. As proof, Monrogh led the conquest of the Kitori, and Tarkalor granted him the wide conquered lands to honor and recognize the new god and his worshippers. A few thouand people departed from the worship of Elmal and converted to Yelmalio, then left their homelands and settled in the new grant by the Creekstream River.
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Sep 18, 2023 16:38
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Magnusth posted:Yeah, but this is both a coward's way, and a big difference from how glorantha used to do things. Like, "actually the god learners are right in the ways that matter" just makes glorantha worse. The idea that there is a single, definate truth, a pair of myths that are unquestionably true outside of your religious experience of them, is violence to the metaphysical foundations of glorantha. There may be general truths and relationships between powers, but a single true perspective or set of events. I don't disagree, though, as NewMars says, it is very clearly an off-game blurb meant to explain why they haven't put in a bunch of extra names for each god, not an authoritative argument - I'm pretty sure the current designers did not think the God Learners got it right, considering they point out how bad they hosed up in several places. quote:Back to storm tribe, Elmal's initiates do use the light rune, but there are abilities listed with it which are clearly about fire and heat - resist frost, rekindle hearth fire, and blazing spear. The write-up does focus on his brightness over his heat, but there are also several mentions of his heat, and in the narrative of guards the stead, he burns things away, his tears are flaming, etc. He is also the fertile sun, which is another sun and heat thing. He is very clearly not the light without heat that Yelmalio is, the bright light of the lightfore which shines without heat but still illuminates the dark. If you want to keep Elmal as a separate deity, just give him those powers and say they are gifted from associate cults that jive better with his specific mythology.
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Sep 19, 2023 06:51
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Josef bugman posted:I'm becoming increasingly happy that I have bought nothing of modern rune quest. The adventure-modules were nice, but the new Cult-books feel like a copy paste trash. I'd rather have read more about cults and myths, than glaze over another patch of repeated mechanics.
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Sep 19, 2023 11:16
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Tias posted:If you want to keep Elmal as a separate deity, just give him those powers and say they are gifted from associate cults that jive better with his specific mythology. That'd let people play the kind of Elmali character they want, with fire spears and arrows, but it wouldn't solve the issue for those who want Elmal to be the sun and not Lightfore. It isn't enough to say that they're different beings, Elmal needs to have different (and de facto better since Light is a component of Fire) runes and be a different (and more important) planetary body.
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Sep 19, 2023 17:27
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White Coke posted:That'd let people play the kind of Elmali character they want, with fire spears and arrows, but it wouldn't solve the issue for those who want Elmal to be the sun and not Lightfore. It isn't enough to say that they're different beings, Elmal needs to have different (and de facto better since Light is a component of Fire) runes and be a different (and more important) planetary body. I can't find enough argument to support that Elmal was the sun, but honestly, everyones Glorantha WILL vary. If it suits the players better that he is the steadfast thane and also the sun itself, roll with it.
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Sep 19, 2023 17:36
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Tias posted:I can't find enough argument to support that Elmal was the sun, but honestly, everyones Glorantha WILL vary. If it suits the players better that he is the steadfast thane and also the sun itself, roll with it. Six Ages 1 has Elmal being the sun as rather core to its plot.
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Sep 19, 2023 18:02
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Also honestly, the idea that there can only have ever been one sun in all of mythology that no one can interpret differently feels wrong when there are hints that there may have been multiple Yelms and a War of Many Suns.
Gorelab fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Sep 19, 2023 |
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Sep 19, 2023 18:18
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Nanomashoes posted:Six Ages 1 has Elmal being the sun as rather core to its plot. A sun. Sorry for being imprecise, I meant that if folks are saying Elmal was the actual Yelm/Arraz-core of the light itself.. And it is not completely clear if the Six Ages 1 tribe are not actually worshipping Dayzatar or Yelmalio, and we're just having him referred to as Elmal.
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Sep 19, 2023 19:33
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Nanomashoes posted:Six Ages 1 has Elmal being the sun as rather core to its plot. I haven't played Six Ages yet myself but doesn't it add in extra suns like Yonesh the Cold Sun (Cold Sun being one of the titles of Yelmalio) as well as a Little Yelm (implicitly Yelmalio)? Are we to take any canon conflicts between Six Ages and RQ:G as always being resolved in favor of Six Ages? If Elmal is the sun then there's an interesting interplay between him, Yelm, and Yelmalio because while he fills the same physical role as Yelm his mythology is closer to Yelmalio's since both of them are sons of Yelm who tried to fill his role after Orlanth killed him, but were unable to so well enough. What's been interesting for me rereading King of Sartar as well as finding other material like that Greg Sez from 2000 that I posted earlier is that it was the influence of Yelm that disrupted the Elmali and led to the dissension and dissatisfaction which paved the way for Monrogh's revelation. Whenever there was contact between Dragon Pass and Dara Happa there was a one sided cultural transfer because Yelm both provided more powerful magic and was not subservient to Orlanth but claimed to be his superior. So Monrogh's revelation grew out of him trying to find the truth about Elmal, to see if he could still be worshipped instead of Yelm. Maybe he was wrong to say Elmal is Yelmalio but he found the only viable alternative since, per what Greg Stafford wrote, Yelmalio was more powerful than Elmal which proved he wasn't just imposing a weaker god on the Elmali in order to neuter their capacity to resist the kingdom of Sartar but he also satisfied their desire for a god who could be an equal of Orlanth without being his enemy like Yelm is. As for the cultural differences between the Sun Domers and the Dragon Pass Orlanthi, they were already diverging and Monrogh and his converts were former Elmali so they made the culture they wanted and were already moving towards.
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Sep 19, 2023 19:51
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White Coke posted:
White Coke posted:But is there any reason he shouldn't be stronger? I ask this because another common refrain I've encountered is that Elmal is better/stronger because he wasn't beat up like Yelmalio was at the Hill of Gold. It reminds me of Virgin vs. Chad memes. In fact that's another commonly raised point I've seen, Yelmalio the incel virgin vs. Elmal the happily married family man. So much of the discussion that I've seen hinges not just on how they're different but that Elmal is better both as a person and as a source of mechanical benefits. So I admit I'm suspicious of Elmal defenders as people who want to eat their cake and have it too, that they want Elmal to be quantifiably better as well as a wholly different entity. This might all just be in my head but that's where I'm coming from. Given how Monrogh's revelation is described it seems to me that the intention is that he proved Elmal is Yelmalio by demonstrating greater powers derived from a more complete understanding of who Elmal really was. And so I wonder then that if in compromise people would be willing to accept having Elmal given separate status but at the cost of his implied inferiority made explicit. Honestly this is more about the culture of Yelmalions, who have traditionally been described as having a giant stick up their rear end, being misogynist pricks, having sexual prohibitions, etc. You know, being extremely hatable in general. He also happens to have really weak mechanics in RQ:Q, and i think most people - even ardent Elmalaboos like myself - think he should have something better. (Seriously, how does he not have an auto-ressurect spell? or any useful combat magic?) I don't think Yelmalio should be worse than Elmal mechanically, because i don't think any god should be a trap option, and as for which god could beat who in a fight, i... why would i possibly care? White Coke posted:I thought elves loved Yelmalio because his light allowed plants to grow without the risk of heat causing them to burn? And that he had some frost resistance powers gained from his fight with Inora on the Hill of Gold? Also I don't find "he's always been this way so he should always be this way" a compelling argument given how much the setting has changed, such as the creation of Elmal himself. If the setting can't be changed in any way that might make existing fans dissatisfied then I think it'd be a less interesting one. The Malkioni would still be heavily based on medieval Europe, the Orlanthi would be vikings, and those who want Kralorela to be something other than orientalist fantasy China are out of luck because some people like it the way it is. White Coke posted:But on the other hand I do think that there's a desire to sweep Elmal under the rug in RQ:G which I think is a mistake because it alienates fans of Elmal while also eliminating some interesting potential storylines from the game. I think that you can still have all the original interpretations of Elmal's myths but that they become more interesting because now they can also be seen in a new light cast by Yelmalio's versions too. There are some devout Elmali who still worship him and don't just call Yelmalio Elmal, and I'd like to learn more about them and how they've coped with the revelation and subsequent changes. White Coke posted:I found this Greg Sez about Yelmalio and it's an interesting read because it talks about how Yelmalio has been known by different names in previous ages so it's up in the air as to whether the current Yelmalio is the same Yelmalio as has been previously worshipped. One section that addresses the question of why Elmali shifted to worshipping Yelmalio states: White Coke posted:That'd let people play the kind of Elmali character they want, with fire spears and arrows, but it wouldn't solve the issue for those who want Elmal to be the sun and not Lightfore. It isn't enough to say that they're different beings, Elmal needs to have different (and de facto better since Light is a component of Fire) runes and be a different (and more important) planetary body. It's also a little funny to say that the people who want to worship the god defined by his loyalty to a superior just want their god to be more important. Tias posted:I can't find enough argument to support that Elmal was the sun, but honestly, everyones Glorantha WILL vary. If it suits the players better that he is the steadfast thane and also the sun itself, roll with it. Okay, but... this is really, actually, fully, just complete nonsense. Every single mention of Elmal in all the main sources call him the sun or a Sun God. He's mentioned several times in the Guide, always as 'the sun' or 'the sun stallion' or 'the sun god.' In Storm Tribe, he's consistently called the Sun god, he's always associated with the dawn, Book of Heortling mythology calls him the sun, and Greg's famous essay on his introduction makes it clear that he is "the sun of life," the friendly sun. That's what he's always called. That's really not in question.
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Sep 19, 2023 21:13
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A bit in The Rebirth in the book of Heortling Mythology has the Sun Disk separate yet a part of Elmal, but in a very clever way. See, Elmal is the little sun of the darkness and the grey age (I. E. the lightfore), and the sun disc is his horse. Which Orlanth loosed from the underworld.
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Sep 19, 2023 22:44
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Isn't Elmal also a horse at some points? Also, to look at the whole thing again, I really do enjoy a lot of the Heroquest stuff, but I do wish more had been written about the other bits of Glorantha than just Dragon Pass.
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Sep 19, 2023 22:52
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There were a couple of Imperial Handbooks, but they're earlier and written for what was Herowars before they changed to Heroquest.
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Sep 19, 2023 23:04
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Gorelab posted:There were a couple of Imperial Handbooks, but they're earlier and written for what was Herowars before they changed to Heroquest. I've read a few of them. Not really enough to give a full overview of the Imperials. Wish we could see more.
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Sep 19, 2023 23:06
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Josef bugman posted:Isn't Elmal also a horse at some points? Escalation is doing a fan book on lunars and the West for 13G that is supposed to be in layout right now: https://escalationfanzine.blogspot.com/2023/02/progress-on-13th-age-glorantha-book.html And there is a Big Malkioni Book that Jeff keeps talking about.
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Sep 19, 2023 23:14
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Magnusth posted:Elmal is the Sun God, but no one claims, to my knowledge, that he is the sun disk, that's Yelm. Most myths describe Elmal carrying or guarding the Sun; the guide mentions him as 'the sun stallion' and as a horse carrying the sun on his back. Book of Heortling mythology describes the lightbringers quest and mentions Elmal 'riding his chariot again' after Orlanth returns. They all describe Orlanth going to the underworld and making peace with Yelm and agreeing to the compromise an bringing him back etc. So he's the sun god but he's not the sun itself and instead helps fulfill its functions and protect it? Isn't that similar to the role of Lightfore gods who represent the sun's light and serve as intermediaries? Magnusth posted:Honestly this is more about the culture of Yelmalions, who have traditionally been described as having a giant stick up their rear end, being misogynist pricks, having sexual prohibitions, etc. You know, being extremely hatable in general. He also happens to have really weak mechanics in RQ:Q, and i think most people - even ardent Elmalaboos like myself - think he should have something better. (Seriously, how does he not have an auto-ressurect spell? or any useful combat magic?) I don't think Yelmalio should be worse than Elmal mechanically, because i don't think any god should be a trap option, and as for which god could beat who in a fight, i... why would i possibly care? The Orlanthi culture is awful too with human sacrifice, slavery, lynching, endemic raiding & warfare, and legalized murder. Not to mention its own strict gender roles even if they are more flexible than the Sky pantheon's. And as for which god could beat which in a fight, the gods aren't all equal in their power. It goes to the conflict between Sky and Storm in God Time and the struggle between Storm and Moon in Solar Time. Elmal is the Loyal Thane because he's weaker than his father Yelm, who was killed by Orlanth which made Orlanth king of the world. Yelmalio lost his powers because he was beaten and robbed by various gods but nonetheless persevered. And if the hate-ability of different gods' worshipers' cultures is to be considered why not the relative power of the gods themselves? If the only way to avoid having gods be trap options is to make them equally capable of winning a fight, then I don't see how that can be done without severe homogenization. Magnusth posted:Sure, but what is gained by flattening Elmal and Yelmalio, on insisting on them being one god? I know what's lost: a rich vein of Elmali history and mythology, a particular niche in Orlanthi society, a type of character many enjoy playing, a more complex relationship between the Orlanthi and sun worshippers, and more interesting variety among the clans and tribes. I do not see what is gained. You gain and lose whichever decision is made, but there are still Elmali clans and the Elmali myths are still around. Elmal is going to be a playable sub-cult in an official publication. Magnusth posted:According to Jeff, you are a wierdo pervert and cast out of the cult because the truth is so obvious and everyone knows it and you probably smell too. I can't say I've seen him say anything that vehement, but I have seen him get frustrated at and confused by "Elmalaboos" litigating the same fight over and over again which is going to wear down anyone if they deal with it long enough. And he's the one who allowed the Elmal subcult to be included when it's within his rights to just retcon Elmal out completely. Magnusth posted:I mean, all it says is that he was challenged to show a god stronger than Elmal and presented Yelmalio as the answer, and then proved it through military might. But, like... Monrogh being able to conqour poo poo doesn't make Yelmalio nessecarily stronger than Elmal, it just makes Monrogh a powerful hero. Note that that quote also specifically casts Yelmalio as not Elmal - a separate god, and people departed one for the other. The military might was a demonstration of Yelmalio's superior power relative to Elmal's. It came from Yelmalio's power, and if it was Monrogh's abilities as a Hero that accomplished it then Yelmalio was the one providing him those powers, powers which he didn't have when he worshipped Elmal. It's true that that quote speaks of them as separate gods, but also gods with a clear difference in relative power. Why is one part open to interpretation but the other not? Why must Elmal be at least the equal of Yelmalio when there is a direct statement they aren't? Magnusth posted:I do just want to point out here, that the reason we want Elmal to be a sun god isn't because the sun is more important than the Lightfore, it's because he's always been the sun god and makes sense as the sun god, and most importantly because Elmal, as a whole, defines a very interesting and fun niche in Orlanthi society. He wasn't always the sun god, he was retconned in. When he was introduced he was brought in as the Orlanthi sun god because someone asked who the Orlanthi sun god was before they made contact with Dara Happa. Lodril has had a bunch of different runes, should he only ever have Heat and Disorder? Why then does he need Fire in order to be loyal? Wouldn't Truth be the more important rune for that? If he was able to get all of his iconic fire spells through associated cults, or lost them completely, would that make him any less of a Loyal Thane?
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Sep 19, 2023 23:52
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wiegieman posted:Escalation is doing a fan book on lunars and the West for 13G that is supposed to be in layout right now: https://escalationfanzine.blogspot.com/2023/02/progress-on-13th-age-glorantha-book.html drat, can't wait.
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Sep 20, 2023 01:12
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White Coke posted:So he's the sun god but he's not the sun itself and instead helps fulfill its functions and protect it? Isn't that similar to the role of Lightfore gods who represent the sun's light and serve as intermediaries? No, because the lightfore gods represent a explicitly separate celestial object.
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Sep 20, 2023 01:44
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This all seems like a lot of minutiae when the only really important thing is "the Storm pantheon should be allowed to have its own sun god rather than having a sun god who they think is part of their pantheon, but really belongs to the Sky pantheon, because they are dumb." Even if some things in the setting are mysterious or May Vary, they should at least be allowed to have their own book presented from their perspective, rather than having Elmal "cut for space" from a book he's already in.
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Sep 20, 2023 01:50
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This discussion makes me curious about something. As someone who's mostly on the periphery of Gloranthan fandom because I find the setting fascinating but haven't made the time to read its vast corpus, I'm wondering: how definitive is the material in the Guide to Glorantha? And by definitive I mostly mean, adhering to Greg Stafford's interpretations and statements as closely as possible, rather than his acolytes and successors. One of these days I'm going to set all my other reading aside and just devour a huge chunk of Glorantha texts, and I've always meant to make the Guide a part of that (I've only read chunks), but this Jeff character makes me a wee bit concerned about non-Stafford influences. I suppose my biases are showing here: I love Greg Stafford's whole auteur deal, and while I disagree with his IRL shamanic weirdness, it's a worldview that made for incredible fiction. For me, Glorantha is this magnificent thing that flowed from the wellspring of Stafford's mind, and our access to "true canon" was cut off at the moment of his death. The irony of this statement re: Glorantha does not escape me. Even so, if I'm ever going to immerse myself in this astonishing secondary he created, I'd want to do it in a way that's as close to the prophet's vision as possible. On an unrelated note, do we know how is Monrogh supposed to be pronounced? In my head it's "Monrow" and this has to be wrong.
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Sep 20, 2023 03:17
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reignonyourparade posted:No, because the lightfore gods represent a explicitly separate celestial object. The relationship between Lightfore and the sun is varied based on different culture's views. According to this some see Lightfore as pulling or carrying the sun. If Lightfore is the portion of the sun that didn't die, then one theory I've read is that during the day it merges back with the sun but doesn't head to the underworld at night. Rand Brittain posted:This all seems like a lot of minutiae when the only really important thing is "the Storm pantheon should be allowed to have its own sun god rather than having a sun god who they think is part of their pantheon, but really belongs to the Sky pantheon, because they are dumb." Even if some things in the setting are mysterious or May Vary, they should at least be allowed to have their own book presented from their perspective, rather than having Elmal "cut for space" from a book he's already in. The current Orlanthi perspective though is that Elmal is Yelmalio except for a few conservative hold outs. Monrogh didn't just convince Elmali that Elmal was Yelmalio, he also convinced the Orlanthi including the prince of Sartar which is why they were granted some of the Kitori land after they conquered it. If the books were about an earlier period then Elmal should be included in the Lightbringer's cult book, but they don't have rules for extinct sub cults like Orlanth Dragonfriend either (although I only skimmed through and might have missed it). And they weren't being stupid, a lot of knowledge was lost in the Great Darkness and it was over time through contact with other cultures that survived which increased their knowledge of the gods. Even gods like Orlanth are kind of composites from the gods of various small Orlanthi communities that survived. Vinga is another example, she's either the daughter of Orlanth or the female aspect of Orlanth. Likewise Elmal was based on the best understanding they had of Yelmalio, and given how many times Yelmalio has been rediscovered and suppressed he should be presented as one of the weirdest gods around as it is. Elmal was their Lightfore god but they mostly don't see him in just the role of the Loyal Thane anymore in the present day of the game. And while Yelmalio is a Sky pantheon god he isn't exclusively one. Yelm is his father but isn't his liege in the way Orlanth is Elmal's. Yelmalio helped many different cultures in the Darkness but then he'd either have to have his rules copied into a bunch of different books or just stuck in one, the Sky pantheon makes sense since he does have strong ties to them. Kestral posted:this Jeff character makes me a wee bit concerned about non-Stafford influences. The complaint I see a lot about Jeff seems to be that he's hewing too closely to Stafford's early works which is why he pushes the Elmal-is-Yelmalio position since Elmal didn't exist in early versions of Glorantha. I think a lot of the early material about Elmal comes from the video game King of Dragon Pass which I don't think Greg Stafford had a lot of direct involvement in, although Stafford did first come up with Elmal but also came up with the Elmal-is-Yelmalio retcon too.
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Sep 20, 2023 03:31
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Kestral posted:This discussion makes me curious about something. As someone who's mostly on the periphery of Gloranthan fandom because I find the setting fascinating but haven't made the time to read its vast corpus, I'm wondering: how definitive is the material in the Guide to Glorantha? And by definitive I mostly mean, adhering to Greg Stafford's interpretations and statements as closely as possible, rather than his acolytes and successors. One of these days I'm going to set all my other reading aside and just devour a huge chunk of Glorantha texts, and I've always meant to make the Guide a part of that (I've only read chunks), but this Jeff character makes me a wee bit concerned about non-Stafford influences. It's sort of definitive but also weird in some ways? In particular, as you've probably noticed, some parts of Glorantha have had a lot more words devoted to them than others, so that you get a general ranking of "Dragon Pass > (vast gulf) > places that are culturally linked to Dragon Pass in some way > (even vaster gulf) anywhere else". There just hasn't been a lot written about, say, Kralorela, and most of what has been written is generally agreed to be Kinda Racist and not that great. So in some places the Guide is a definitive compilation of a bunch of material that desperately needs a rewrite. I've also noticed places where somebody has read material from older books and imported it into the Guide but missed the subtext, like how modern Glorantha books tend to describe the Lunar Emperor as "devoted to the people's pleasure and happiness", whereas the older books made it clear that this is the official story, which is a cover for the fact that he's a grotesque sybarite who provides absolutely nothing useful to the Imperial government. Other than that, though, it's a very good compilation of what has come before.
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Sep 20, 2023 04:21
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There's a lot of copying and pasting on glorantha products. Even the new cult books, while they have great art, use a lot of copy verbatim from old cult writeups in previous editions. The art is great though, if there's one thing Jeff Richard can do it's get good art.
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Sep 20, 2023 06:46
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Magnusth posted:Elmal is the Sun God, but no one claims, to my knowledge, that he is the sun disk, that's Yelm. Most myths describe Elmal carrying or guarding the Sun; the guide mentions him as 'the sun stallion' and as a horse carrying the sun on his back. I know when I have been outgrog'd, my bad. I can't afford the guide, but I got to BoHM which cleared it up. E: in other news, I may be playing my first Yelmalion ever! What, in you guys opinion, would such an initiate act like? I am of course taking a geas, but would also lift their Truth and Sky runes. Any other ideas? Tias fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Sep 20, 2023 |
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Sep 20, 2023 08:27
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If your PC comes from the Sun Dome branch of the cult, then he was probably born on temple lands, initiated direct to Yelmalio, and trained to fight on foot as part of a military unit in defence of his farmlands. If he.come from the Elmali branch, he was probably brought up in a regular Orlanthi clan, and initiated as an adult into the clan. There he met Elmal at Orlath’s stead, and, perhaps due to a family tradition, connected with him. He would likely be, or have aspirations to be, part of the clan warrior aristocracy, and fight as a thane from horseback. The clan elders advised him the best way to follow his calling was to sign up with the Sun Domers for a term of mercenary service. This may well have been as a scout, messenger or auxiliary, instead of a hoplite. Now that term is over, and they are looking to make a reputation for themselves. The latter is probably a lot more playable by default in a typical campaign. The first really needs a specific hook to explain why they are here, and what they hope they gain.
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Sep 20, 2023 12:59
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quote:So he's the sun god but he's not the sun itself and instead helps fulfill its functions and protect it? Isn't that similar to the role of Lightfore gods who represent the sun's light and serve as intermediaries? That said, we were talking about the Lightbringers quest. Do you still think it's less interesting if Elmal bring a sun god is still entirely compatible with orlanth going on a quest to restore The Sun? quote:The Orlanthi culture is awful too with human sacrifice, slavery, lynching, endemic raiding & warfare, and legalized murder. Not to mention its own strict gender roles even if they are more flexible than the Sky pantheon's. Sure, I'm just saying, this is one of the reasons people consider Elmal to be the proverbial Chad compared to Yelmalio. That, and a lot of people consider Elmal guards the stead a much cooler myth than Yelmalio and the hill of gold. Note also that this part - Yelmalio worshippers being extremely misogynistic conservative puritan assholes - is part of what makes people really frustrated when grogs go "oh actually, in modern times your favorite guys are all Yelmalions" quote:And as for which god could beat which in a fight, the gods aren't all equal in their power. It goes to the conflict between Sky and Storm in God Time and the struggle between Storm and Moon in Solar Time. Elmal is the Loyal Thane because he's weaker than his father Yelm, who was killed by Orlanth which made Orlanth king of the world. Yelmalio lost his powers because he was beaten and robbed by various gods but nonetheless persevered. And if the hate-ability of different gods' worshipers' cultures is to be considered why not the relative power of the gods themselves? But to take the question a little more seriously, you are right that the different gods have different strengths, at least to some degree, though remember that myths aren't static. Powerful heroquesters can and do affect the outcome of the myths. Famously, an individual Yelmalion can win the fight with Zorak Zoran and regain fire powers - for such a hero, it is not the case that Zorak Zoran is more powerful thab Yelmalio, for example. There are no mythic reasons to believe Yelmalio is stronger than Elmal, however, and they are similar enough in stature and ranking - both mythically enduring and powerful warriors who aid mortals in the darkness, both important war gods of their people - that there's no obvious power differential, like you'd see with, say, Humakt and yinkin or something. There's no good reason one should be categorically or worse than another. One hero may be stronger than another, but these gods aren't easily comparable. quote:If the only way to avoid having gods be trap options is to make them equally capable of winning a fight, then I don't see how that can be done without severe homogenization. quote:You gain and lose whichever decision is made, but there are still Elmali clans and the Elmali myths are still around. Elmal is going to be a playable sub-cult in an official publication. I'll comment on the Elmali clan stuff below, but if you think something is gained, go ahead - what is gained by insisting that Elmal is Yelmalio at a 100% objective, uncomplicated fact? quote:I can't say I've seen him say anything that vehement, but I have seen him get frustrated at and confused by "Elmalaboos" litigating the same fight over and over again which is going to wear down anyone if they deal with it long enough. And he's the one who allowed the Elmal subcult to be included when it's within his rights to just retcon Elmal out completely. "At this point, to be someone in Dragon Pass that refuses the acknowledge Yelmalio as a title of the Cold Sun, Lightfore, the Sky Dome, the last Light in the Darkness, etc. is to be perverse. You are refusing to accept what you have experienced in your cult rituals and worship ceremonies, concluding that the cult spirits have somehow betrayed you, that the ancient challenges and tests are wrong, and that somehow all communication with the god is misleading. At this point, you are cast out of your local Elmal cult (now normally called Yelmalio) and can go wander on your own." quote:The military might was a demonstration of Yelmalio's superior power relative to Elmal's. It came from Yelmalio's power, and if it was Monrogh's abilities as a Hero that accomplished it then Yelmalio was the one providing him those powers, powers which he didn't have when he worshipped Elmal. It's true that that quote speaks of them as separate gods, but also gods with a clear difference in relative power. Why is one part open to interpretation but the other not? Why must Elmal be at least the equal of Yelmalio when there is a direct statement they aren't? quote:He wasn't always the sun god, he was retconned in. When he was introduced he was brought in as the Orlanthi sun god because someone asked who the Orlanthi sun god was before they made contact with Dara Happa. Lodril has had a bunch of different runes, should he only ever have Heat and Disorder? quote:Why then does he need Fire in order to be loyal? Wouldn't Truth be the more important rune for that? If he was able to get all of his iconic fire spells through associated cults, or lost them completely, would that make him any less of a Loyal Thane?
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Sep 20, 2023 12:59
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Rand Brittain posted:
I always assumed that that was done as a sly nod to the differences in Glorantha and/or the propaganda writers for the Red Empire.
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Sep 20, 2023 13:59
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