|
Afterimage managed to ride the line of just passably enjoyable enough to continue throughout most of it, but it is literally right next to Aeterna Noctis in my steam library and that game did the HK inspired oversized metroidvania better in pretty much every aspect. Besides the maps being really bloated for how little variety there actually is to the game, Afterimage would be vastly improved by removing most of its rpg elements. They're like 5 different systems of extremely boring +1% hp/damage upgrades, but there's still so many of them and the map is so open it's very easy to run into a boss for the first time already overleveled and steamroll them. And one of the games positives is its large list of weapons with unique gimmicks, except they're also part of this upgrade treadmill so you'll find many of them when they're already too weak to be usable. The game has a ton of bosses but many of them are extremely basic and some patterns get reused. Still, I did all the bosses "properly" (estus but no consumables, also avoided the magic spam afterimage since it seemed op), and some were quite nice. In particular the first knight, the sword, and the double boss for the 3 shard ending. The final final boss was also decent but gets massive penalties for the unskippable cutscenes and 2 trivial phases you get healed after.
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 00:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 02:12 |
|
|
I actually wore down on Aeterna Noctis. The map is ridiculously massive and spread all over (bad design imo, very little interconnectivity). The bosses are often just walls of bullshit compared to the areas preceding them where it's often less about skill in dodging and more about "hey will I get lucky and there will actually be gaps in all the bullshit this guy throws at me." It's almost like it's designed around you heavily using that skill which puts up the shield really briefly but it will recharge faster, except by default they made L3 your defensive move, which is just an egregious "get hosed." The upgrade tree is ridiculously incremental except for a handful of levels which actively add something, and the exp rate is glacial as hell... it just feels obnoxious. Had to dive into an NG++ run of Sekiro on my Deck as a palette cleanse. What a shame, the art, music, and just overall style of it is great.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 14:22
|
|
|
Hollow Knight could barely justify its scale and that was the best implementation of the oversized metroidvania premise, I think all of these games would be better off if they could set themselves a limit of like twenty hours tops. Also, Silksong would probably actually exist
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 14:34
|
|
|
No Dignity posted:Hollow Knight could barely justify its scale and that was the best implementation of the oversized metroidvania premise, I think all of these games would be better off if they could set themselves a limit of like twenty hours tops. Also, Silksong would probably actually exist Yeah, HK's design is just light years ahead of AN and the actual map is well designed and evocative of OG Dark Souls 1 with how everything links back to each other. AN has a weird 2D version of Dark Souls 2 design but imagine over 50% of it is super punishing platforming that's way harder than any of the actual combat against boring filler enemies, and then you'll face bosses who start out totally fine but then by the mid to late game you're facing evil genie apparitions who poo poo out missiles in fast horizontal waves with varying vertical gaps that you need to PERFECTLY dodge through to hit the guy during his insanely brief vulnerability window, and oh yeah the floor AND the ceiling are on fire the entire time with no place for you to even stand and thus recharge health. All you have is a double jump and a non-iframe air dash, plus an extremely cumbersome thrown teleport crystal whose graphic blends into all the poo poo on screen already and it uses two different buttons to actually use (one of which requires you take your thumb off the jump and attack buttons) and also has extremely tight timing unless you eat a limited upgrade slot to slot a gem that gives you an extra half a second to use it. The icing on all of this is you need to use the really janky wall grab between phases, which has you slide down it inordinately quickly AND the only non- channeled healing item you have, these 3 healing potions which work instantly, are random drops which almost never drop during boss fights and out in the world it often will be 10+ minutes before an enemy decides to randomly spit one out. You can also buy them but there's never a store near a boss door, and the nearest teleport to get to a store is through a bunch of bullshit and most likely a platforming section involving you wall hanging and air dashing through narrow gaps of instant kill spikes that will kick you way back to the start of the platforming section with less health. All of this and when you beat a boss it's totally up in the air on whether you'll actually get a meaningful new ability (most of the time you won't), get some special currency which gatekeeps your mod slots, or just literally nothing other than "hey you have extra lights on the lock to the main story." It just consistently feels like the devs were up their own asses with the story and world design, and they actively hate the player. And this is on the normal difficulty, which I had to turn it down to because the hard difficulty was even more asinine. Fuzz fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Sep 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 14:51
|
|
|
Yeah, I can see why a lot of people like AN, but it's definitely a product of the "the game should be actively hostile to the player" school of design (and also, for me at least, it turns out that precision platformer and metroidvania aren't genres that blend well together). Also both AN and Afterimage are great examples of more not necessarily being better - the areas are huge but there's not much variability *within* an area, so backtracking (which should be a joy in a metroidvania) quickly becomes a chore.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 15:07
|
|
|
guppy posted:IMO 9 Years of Shadow is extremely boring. There's nothing out and out wrong with it but I lost interest in going back to play more. I didn't get super far in it but this was my exact feeling. The combat just isn't there. It's very pretty though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 18:55
|
|
|
FWIW Aeterna Noctis feels like a game that was designed with a triple jump and they changed it for the arrows somewhere along the line, but the platforming difficulty flattens a bit more with the triple jump gem equipped that was patched in later. I don't think I would ever play without it. I remember a couple of really tough bosses that absolutely pissed me off, but they were refights I would skip. The two robot bosses got me my first red gem, which was completely useless for how I was playing the game
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 19:22
|
|
|
bawk posted:FWIW Aeterna Noctis feels like a game that was designed with a triple jump and they changed it for the arrows somewhere along the line, but the platforming difficulty flattens a bit more with the triple jump gem equipped that was patched in later. I don't think I would ever play without it. A lot of the gems are utterly worthless. So much of the game is just "here's a half baked idea!" And it shows up in one place or as a random gem without any balance vs the others. The best is that you can equip the half cooldown shield, the parry with fast Regen shield unless you whiff, and the auto shield with long cooldown gems all at the same time. Literally none of them stack with each other and they variably override each other depending on the situation. The game does nothing to tell you this or warn you against this, nor is it consistent on when which gem will be the active effect. Like you can straight up parry correctly and inexplicably have a long cooldown because the game just decided that it's the 50% cooldown not the rapid one. It's a real shame, because the setting, art, and MUSIC in particular are all top notch and really cool, so you WANT to like the game but the actual gameplay is so bad.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 19:35
|
|
|
Huge fan of the genre, just catching up on Blasphemous 1+2 right now. I haven't been following the thread, but some of the ones I liked on Steam the most in the last few years that weren't hyperpopular in case people were looking for other options: - ASTLIBRA - Alwa's Legacy - Astalon: Tears of the Earth - ENDER LILIES: Quieus of the Knights
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 19:41
|
|
|
I really liked Astalon: Tears of the Earth but I haven't finished it yet. I got most of the way in and life demands got in the way. But it's a very solid game. I'd love to see a sequel to it. The minimap is very bad, however.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 19:44
|
|
|
Falcon2001 posted:Huge fan of the genre, just catching up on Blasphemous 1+2 right now. I haven't been following the thread, but some of the ones I liked on Steam the most in the last few years that weren't hyperpopular in case people were looking for other options: ASTLIBRA is amazing, but it's not a metroidvania, it's much closer to the Ys games in terms of gameplay and progression. It also gets insane in the best way in terms of story as it goes on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 19:51
|
|
|
Why don't they make more metroidvanias that are more like Metroid, this shouldn't be a hard thing to do
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 19:54
|
|
|
everyone making these things grew up playing Castlevania games on handhelds, not Metroid
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 19:57
|
|
|
lets hang out posted:everyone making these things grew up playing Castlevania games on handhelds, not Metroid Nah they're making 2D souls knock offs
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 19:59
|
|
|
Eveeyr western indie metroidvania now has a bleak gothic artstyle, punishingly high difficulty, is 30 hours long and a first boss called something like 'Solus, Bannerman of the Empire'
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 20:01
|
|
|
Why would you possibly think that a game full of precision platforming challenges with an intentional flow for every jump and teleport was designed with more jumps than it had before a free dlc added an optional extra jump??? And I don't think the game is in any way hostile to the player, it's just difficult. Every boss and platforming section has checkpoints for easy retrying, there's no surprise traps or gotchas in the level design, there's free infinite respecs. I guess the health potions kinda count, but then I just treated them as an extra bonus for exploration and never went out of my way to farm/buy them. None of the game's problems, like the non-connnected map, the filler regular enemies, the poor story, the frequently hard to read graphics, the boring talent tree or the unbalanced/broken gems (I basically didn't use the shield outside the autoshield because parries are boring and gently caress L3, but lol that it allows you to equip all that) come from intentionally hostile design.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 20:04
|
|
|
No Dignity posted:Nah they're making 2D souls knock offs I really want to get into Blasphemous but I've fallen hard off of it because of the instant-kill spikes. Those shouldn't be in a MV style game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 20:09
|
|
|
I enjoyed basically everything about AN on the difficulty with easier platforming and thought it was going to be an absolute hidden gem I couldn't wait to recommend, until I got to three awful bosses in the second half that killed all the momentum to the point I never finished it. some of their RNG attack patterns felt like they could overlap in a way that there was no way to avoid damage other than using the invincibility shield, which is only repeatedly usable if you equip an optional modifier gem, so it felt like that couldn't have been the intent. The fact that you can't change gems at the boss checkpoints themselves and have to backtrack to much more distant checkpoints to change them made it obnoxious to actually try different things for the bosses. Heath posted:I really want to get into Blasphemous but I've fallen hard off of it because of the instant-kill spikes. Those shouldn't be in a MV style game. Blasphemous 2 got rid of spikes being instant kills and it's one of the best changes it made.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 20:20
|
|
|
No Dignity posted:Why don't they make more metroidvanias that are more like Metroid, this shouldn't be a hard thing to do My completely naive guess is that there are two big obstacles: First, that level design with movement upgrades that fit together as well as in Super Metroid is just genuinely difficult -- not only to implement but even to conceptualize. It's a minor miracle that Super Metroid is as good as it is, and its not surprising that even its own sequels don't measure up to it. Secondly, that a fresh player going into Super Metroid that follows the intended "new player" path is likely to beat the game in under 6-8 hours, even if they get lost once or twice. Few people making indie platformers want their game to be completable that quickly, not just because every indie wants their masterpiece to be colossal but because it's thought that the market incentivizes longer games. (Correctly or not.) The Castlevania approach (with Dark Souls characteristics) is easier to design and easier to make big. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Sep 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 21:08
|
|
|
Yeah the igavania formula is much much easier to do than the Super Metroid formula Not sure about the length though, if you're not using a walkthrough I expect it would be somewhat longer than 10 hours. Igavanias go pretty quickly too, and are IMO much friendlier to a walkthrough-less player because of how modular and formulaic they are, though maybe that's an unfair term. Basically you have like 10 zones, each of which can be non-linearly explored internally but which can't be done outside of the intended sequence. Each zone has one (1) key item needed to progress to the next zone and one (1) boss guarding that item. The only real reason to go back to previous zones is to farm enemies for xp or drops Meanwhile if you dropped a lay person into Super Metroid I expect they would be pretty confused, and would be wandering around for a while without knowing exactly what to do next by the time they got to about the wrecked ship. There are hints and stuff guiding you but they're much more subtle icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Sep 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2023 21:12
|
|
|
Falcon2001 posted:Huge fan of the genre, just catching up on Blasphemous 1+2 right now. I haven't been following the thread, but some of the ones I liked on Steam the most in the last few years that weren't hyperpopular in case people were looking for other options: Astalon is super good, one of my favorites. I also really like Alwa's Awakening and Alwa's Legacy; they're much simpler than most MVs in terms of mechanics, but very charming.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 01:20
|
|
|
No Dignity posted:Eveeyr western indie metroidvania now has a bleak gothic artstyle, punishingly high difficulty, is 30 hours long and a first boss called something like 'Solus, Bannerman of the Empire' What, you don't love long flat corridors with three of the same enemy and maybe two flat platforms, that serve literally no purpose other than to fill space between two VERTICAL corridors? Please try my new game, "Symphony of the Night But Without Any Of The Fun Relics And Only One Weapon", which I assure you has deep combat and well balanced enemies despite all evidence to the contrary.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 04:41
|
|
|
No Dignity posted:Eveeyr western indie metroidvania now has a bleak gothic artstyle, punishingly high difficulty, is 30 hours long and a first boss called something like 'Solus, Bannerman of the Empire'             (Genopanic, Scrabdackle, Bushiden, Mira: The Legend of the Djinns, Rubi: the Wayward Mira, Dewdrop Dynasty, Ultros, Star Hearts, Rebel Transmute, Minishoot Adventures, Moonlight Pulse, Dormiveglia)
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 07:18
|
|
|
KNR posted:Why would you possibly think that a game full of precision platforming challenges with an intentional flow for every jump and teleport was designed with more jumps than it had before a free dlc added an optional extra jump??? because of the number of times I found myself going platform to platform where two jumps was not enough, two jumps + teleport arrow would be overkill, but three consecutive jumps fit so perfectly that I could hold the stick in that direction and press the button one extra time and land squarely in the center of the platform. So either that platform was also added into Noctis mode, or it's always been there and it just happens to be the perfect distance for a third jump. Repeat that enough times that it became a pattern where I kept thinking to myself "goddamn this game feels like it was originally designed with a triple jump in mind" Like  it's a good game, just not one that I would want to willingly replay without the triple jump gem since it fits into the game so well. There's definitely areas where the teleport is such a key focus that it'd be impossible for it to be an afterthought, and other areas that I just sorta shrugged and said "huh. This triple jump is perfect here."
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 07:49
|
|
|
Not gonna lie “Solus: Bannerman of the Empire” sounds like a cool dude and I’d like to meet him.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 08:26
|
|
|
bawk posted:because of the number of times I found myself going platform to platform where two jumps was not enough, two jumps + teleport arrow would be overkill, but three consecutive jumps fit so perfectly that I could hold the stick in that direction and press the button one extra time and land squarely in the center of the platform. So either that platform was also added into Noctis mode, or it's always been there and it just happens to be the perfect distance for a third jump. Repeat that enough times that it became a pattern where I kept thinking to myself "goddamn this game feels like it was originally designed with a triple jump in mind"
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 09:17
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:My completely naive guess is that there are two big obstacles: First, that level design with movement upgrades that fit together as well as in Super Metroid is just genuinely difficult -- not only to implement but even to conceptualize. It's a minor miracle that Super Metroid is as good as it is, and its not surprising that even its own sequels don't measure up to it. Maybe I should try super metroid
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 11:20
|
|
|
The 7th Guest posted:(Genopanic, Scrabdackle, Bushiden, Mira: The Legend of the Djinns, Rubi: the Wayward Mira, Dewdrop Dynasty, Ultros, Star Hearts, Rebel Transmute, Minishoot Adventures, Moonlight Pulse, Dormiveglia) I don't have the original complaint, but I have also never heard of any of these, I should check these out. Do you have opinions about any of them in particular?
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 12:26
|
|
|
guppy posted:I don't have the original complaint, but I have also never heard of any of these, I should check these out. Do you have opinions about any of them in particular? Just looked at the Steam pages and they're all not out yet. Having said that I put most on my wish list because they seem cool.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 13:00
|
|
Definitely going to wishlist the rest, they all look pretty rad. Even if some of them clearly aren't in the same genre.
|
ilmucche posted:Maybe I should try super metroid It's never been topped imo
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 13:11
|
|
|
Also I hope some of those games end up good, nice to see some more visual styles at the very least
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 13:13
|
|
|
If you specifically want games like Metroid instead of Castlevania (sci-fi run-and-gun vs. gothic melee combat) which are already out and playable: Axiom Verge, B.I.O.T.A., Environmental Station Alpha, Escape from Tethys, Gato Roboto, MindSeize, Moonlaw, The Mummy Demastered, Out There Somewhere, Outbuddies, Psycron, A Robot Named Fight, Xeodrifter Quality varies greatly but they do exist.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 13:55
|
|
|
See also Rex Rocket Saira Vision Soft Reset hell even the original indie metroidvania Cavestory is probably more a Metroid than a Vania fez_machine fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Sep 18, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 14:02
|
|
|
Ghost Song is So Metroid It Hurts but it has its design flaws for sure.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 14:25
|
|
|
Tortolia posted:Ghost Song is So Metroid It Hurts but it has its design flaws for sure. I grabbed it on release on ps5 and I really vibed with it until my second or third time taking a part back to the ship (or whatever the end goal was, it's been a very long time). Great atmosphere and soundtrack.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 14:28
|
|
|
I mean I made fun of the Souls aesthetic getting really played out but what really distinguishes Metroid from the rest is the concise length, intricate level design and versatile platforming mechanics, I don't know how prevalent that is with any of those games listed. I've always wanted to play Environment Station Alpha though, I actually have the game but I've never been able to get it working with a controller. Even loading it onto Steam Deck it just doesn't work?
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 14:32
|
|
|
Swilo posted:If you specifically want games like Metroid instead of Castlevania (sci-fi run-and-gun vs. gothic melee combat) which are already out and playable: Axiom Verge, B.I.O.T.A., Environmental Station Alpha, Escape from Tethys, Gato Roboto, MindSeize, Moonlaw, The Mummy Demastered, Out There Somewhere, Outbuddies, Psycron, A Robot Named Fight, Xeodrifter Okay but which of these don't suck.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 14:48
|
|
|
No Dignity posted:I've always wanted to play Environment Station Alpha though, I actually have the game but I've never been able to get it working with a controller. Even loading it onto Steam Deck it just doesn't work? ESA is playable on the Deck with minor fiddling. https://www.protondb.com/app/350070
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 15:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 02:12 |
|
|
Is Bushiden ever coming out
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2023 15:34
|
|