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Bapanada
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Sep 19, 2023 04:54
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Turns out the surprise was the ability to summon Brooding Mawlek. e: The Mawlek is John Riccitiello. SkeletonHero fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Sep 19, 2023 |
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Sep 19, 2023 05:14
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Tiso is my favorite of the bit characters because building this dude up as your badass gladiator rival and then chumping him off-screen so hard he's not even directly pointed out is extremely funny
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Sep 19, 2023 05:30
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Bapa is bug for release-date
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Sep 19, 2023 05:50
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When does Tiso die? After you finish round 3 of the Colosseum?
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Sep 19, 2023 06:13
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I liked the big boss rush
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Sep 19, 2023 06:24
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Waltzing Along posted:When does Tiso die? After you finish round 3 of the Colosseum? The wiki says he dies after you attempt any Trial, win or lose.
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Sep 19, 2023 06:42
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The Zombie Guy posted:How Silksong started: Sounds like his prayer was answered. A happy ending
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Sep 19, 2023 07:10
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Waltzing Along posted:When does Tiso die? After you finish round 3 of the Colosseum? SkeletonHero posted:Turns out the surprise was the ability to summon Brooding Mawlek. 
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Sep 19, 2023 12:24
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:if your reaction to a video game being hard is "why are you ruining my fun" the problem is you. you're turning an aesthetic choice in a piece of art into a weird moral issue when it absolutely isn't one Sure, fine, and my bad for misreading your tone. You post a lot about people chasing external and arbitrary rewards so this time I interpreted the disease part as more harsh than it was intended. Sorry again! However, you do misunderstand how integral completionism is to some people when you say it's not essential to enjoying the game. It's not about prestige or accomplishment, it's entirely about the percentage number on the games beaten display showcase. I have actually seen people playing a game for a short while, realizing it's not for them, and then looking up console commands to give themselves the unlocks. I guarantee you that the people chasing insanely grindy multiplayer-only achievements in singleplayer games wouldn't do that if they didn't feel the compulsion to. I'm afraid saying "I would simply stop playing when it becomes unfun" isn't a solution for them. Obviously there's no real solution to this that doesn't compromise a creator's vision or puts the genie of achievements back in the bottle but I can still sympathize with the griping. Now if they were posting all caps negative reviews rambling about how much the combat sucks, that'd be a different matter.
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Sep 19, 2023 14:07
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Hollow Knight has a sliding scale of good vs mediocre endings so adding the Best Ending that’s locked behind the most bullshit battle gauntlet sucks man
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Sep 19, 2023 14:16
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If you have completionist brain worms and can't be satisfied by hitting 110% completion then I don't think there's a way to make you happy.
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Sep 19, 2023 14:20
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GimmickMan posted:Sure, fine, and my bad for misreading your tone. You post a lot about people chasing external and arbitrary rewards so this time I interpreted the disease part as more harsh than it was intended. Sorry again! It's fine, I put it in a really provocative and over-dramatic way, you're not wrong to pick up on that. We're good. goblin week posted:Hollow Knight has a sliding scale of good vs mediocre endings so adding the Best Ending that’s locked behind the most bullshit battle gauntlet sucks man Is it the Best Ending though? Like regular Radiance ending is you defeat the existential threat without undue sacrifice of yourself or the closest thing you have to a friend and save the day. Godseeker ending is more "WHO'S THE EXISTENTIAL THREAT NOW?!" It's tonally darker, very short and un-elaborated upon, and mostly just speaks to the danger of completely unflinching purpose separated from the reasons you started pursuing it in the first place. I wasn't kidding when I said the only thing that gives it any special luster is the very fact that it's exclusive by way of difficulty. (Though to be clear, that's doesn't mean "and therefore it doesn't have any special luster" -- game mechanics are as valid a tool for storytelling as anything.)
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Sep 19, 2023 14:25
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goblin week posted:Hollow Knight has a sliding scale of good vs mediocre endings so adding the Best Ending that’s locked behind the most bullshit battle gauntlet sucks man I don't think the best ending to hollow knight is the one where it spends a thousand years in the battle chamber and then kills its sister.
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Sep 19, 2023 14:27
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sirtommygunn posted:If you have completionist brain worms and can't be satisfied by hitting 110% completion then I don't think there's a way to make you happy. There very much is a way to make these people happy: Understand that OS/Platform-level completion/trophies is a disease, make your Platinum Trophy sane to obtain for a normal but determined player (subject to some interpretation regarding appropriate difficulty of this, but honestly that's like five separate and very nuanced discussions), and leave the real completionist poo poo entirely intrinsic. If your game has advertised completion metrics you should, as a developer, be mindful of how players are likely to interpret them, especially that some people are likely to feel compelled to do things based on there being metrics for them, and if you're going to make things compulsive to players you should do so responsibly. This is a balancing act. It's new and weird and difficult and most developers wouldn't think to do it and if several of them did they would stop at "lol players can just ignore that stuff". To get the Platinum Trophy on PS requires you to complete the Pantheon of Hallownest. This is utterly insane. (It also requires you to do the Mr Mushroom quest) (On the whole I think there is a fascinating disconnect in... culture? I guess? between Steam Achievements and Console Achievements, because Steam Achievements are generally happy to be weird and exclusive while consoles are the platform on which players are explicitly and extrinsically compelled to try and Get All Achievements, and when the two meet it is frequently a disaster)
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Sep 19, 2023 14:38
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The real best ending.
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Sep 19, 2023 14:39
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like basically i am not trying to take anyone to task for their emotional reaction to the game itself, just for not interrogating that reaction. this is the same game where the NPC who gives you the Pokedex tries to eat you (and presumably add you to its own), where the penultimate boss is damned and imprisoned for an age because it committed the crime of having one single emotional attachment, and where pretty much all the major figures in the backstory are different creatures who reproduce themselves through parasitic mind control and the power of subconscious incentives. your frustrated yearning for ultimate power in the context of Hollow Knight isn't invalid, but it's also not a flaw in the game, you know? might as well get mad at a tragic romance for making you cry. e: i hate the way Steam / XBL / etc. achievements are presented too but kind of for the opposite reason: none of this stuff should be assumed to carry over or work the same way from one game to another. the notion that what you do with mechanics and presentation is there to be interpreted is completely incompatible with a commodified, prescriptive, "everything has to fit into these specific neat little boxes" approach Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Sep 19, 2023 |
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Sep 19, 2023 14:40
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:e: i hate the way Steam / XBL / etc. achievements are presented too but kind of for the opposite reason: none of this stuff should be assumed to carry over or work the same way from one game to another. the notion that what you do with mechanics and presentation is there to be interpreted is completely incompatible with a commodified, prescriptive, "everything has to fit into these specific neat little boxes" approach I don't know if this was specifically in response to me but if it is there's clearly been a misinterpretation somewhere because it sounds like we're of a mind on this account. Would that I could go back to 2006 and make the Xbox Achievements never happen, because their presence is imposing itself on games now. I think developers should take a defensive approach to Achievements; a big reason I have for thinking Platinums should be made 10x easier is because it would spite the system. I think it's fine that internally in Hollow Knight there is an achievement for letting Zote die and another mutually exclusive achievement for saving him. It's fine because so long as it's confined to within the game it becomes part of player expression if you think there's a canonical option to always choose. But to bubble them up to the system level and tie it to a generic completion rate demeans the process of making it a choice in the first place since it introduces a completely extrinsic incentive for players to do a thing (notably, on the PS version, in which I complained about the Pantheon of Hallownest being mandatory for Platinum, there aren't system level trophies for Zote, or for completing a Steel Soul run). I think it is (sometimes) interesting to have collected metrics about player choice or even player achievement (one thing I like about PS Trophies is that sometimes the relative completion rates are interesting: did you know that a little under two thirds of people who start Nioh 2 quit before getting halfway through the first stage?) but the compulsive collectible nature of Trophies is poisonous to video games. Very rarely I've seen games take the extrinsic compulsions and channel them into art but it's usually parody on some level. Eg. pretty much the entire list in The Stanley Parable: Ultra Deluxe is an assault on the whole idea of the Trophy List which I respect even as I went out of my way to cheese the Platinum on PS anyway (everyone knows about Super Go Outside, but that can be obtained in a minute, unlike the trophy for playing the game for the entirety of a Tuesday). Or you've got the subtext in Nier/Drakengard, and NieR:Automata is a high point in this discourse because even as it's leveraging this subtext it also lets you literally hack the trophies in-game because it understands better than to actually gently caress with people for a joke even if it's a good one. I think Shadow of the Colossus remains the best artistic examination of compulsion and obsession in video games and it should not go without reminder that SotC predates system Trophies.
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Sep 19, 2023 15:16
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I have completionist platinum brain worms but only with PS games and Hollow Knight was just too much. I can say nope and move on so the brain worms aren't too bad. I would have liked to plat Hollow Knight, but not enough to spend another 40+ hours playing. I don't mind 40 hours on a new play through though. The difference between sitting in traffic for an hour and moving forward on windy mountain roads for an hour.
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Sep 19, 2023 15:53
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I didn't even do the normal Radiant ending, it was too much for me.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:00
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Fedule posted:There very much is a way to make these people happy: Understand that OS/Platform-level completion/trophies is a disease, make your Platinum Trophy sane to obtain for a normal but determined player (subject to some interpretation regarding appropriate difficulty of this, but honestly that's like five separate and very nuanced discussions), and leave the real completionist poo poo entirely intrinsic. If your game has advertised completion metrics you should, as a developer, be mindful of how players are likely to interpret them, especially that some people are likely to feel compelled to do things based on there being metrics for them, and if you're going to make things compulsive to players you should do so responsibly. This is a balancing act. It's new and weird and difficult and most developers wouldn't think to do it and if several of them did they would stop at "lol players can just ignore that stuff". But then the trophy would be too easy and it wouldn't mean anything to platinum the game, and you would be pissing off other achievement obsessed people. There is no balancing act that can make all these people happy.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:12
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The true answer is to always have malleable accessibility options (see also: Celeste) that can adjust things to the taste of the player so they can make things as comfortable, difficult, or easy as they feel like and also let people get any achievements they want no matter what accessibility they choose. No one needs to see a little "ur a wimp" tag on a platinum trophy if you adjusted things to make it more, or at all, possible for you to achieve and you alone know if you're satisfied with having "earned" it or not in that case. yes it's just the "difficulty options in souls" argument but we should be pushing for more accessibility options in all games and in so doing make sure not to "punish" players who use them by locking them out of their dopamine hits when the cheevo pops.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:22
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Nikumatic posted:The true answer is to always have malleable accessibility options (see also: Celeste) that can adjust things to the taste of the player so they can make things as comfortable, difficult, or easy as they feel like and also let people get any achievements they want no matter what accessibility they choose. No one needs to see a little "ur a wimp" tag on a platinum trophy if you adjusted things to make it more, or at all, possible for you to achieve and you alone know if you're satisfied with having "earned" it or not in that case. That's pretty stupid, I think games should be able to express ideas beyond 'you are valid', you'd be completely missing the point of the insane masochist achievement if you could just turn down the heat and get it for free. Like, life will go on without you getting that little tick on your account
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Sep 19, 2023 16:25
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You should not feel compelled to design games based on the various personality issues that your playerbase might have imo
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Sep 19, 2023 16:25
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Achievements should be eliminated from all games.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:31
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Cartoon Man posted:Achievements should be eliminated from all games. This also though
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Sep 19, 2023 16:33
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sirtommygunn posted:But then the trophy would be too easy and it wouldn't mean anything to platinum the game, and you would be pissing off other achievement obsessed people. There is no balancing act that can make all these people happy. It already doesn't mean anything to Platinum a game. To Platinum a specific game might mean something within the context of that game (though it usually doesn't), but the second the metrics leave the game everything evaporates. The idea of one Platinum being comparable to another is laughable. It's not even really a bad thing for system trophies to go fully into the Steam route and be as disconnected and esoteric as they care to be, and even for there to remain some around which an elitist sense remains, or even for certain trophies to have metrics attached to them which are visible from outside the game. But what needs to die is the extrinsic intrusion into games of the Platinum Trophy Disease, where games are designed to have stuff in them that gets tied to Trophies, and where players play games to unlock all the Trophies. I have absolutely no problem with there being a little badge that can proclaim that you, you special player you, have beaten the Pantheon of Hallownest, that you can display on your actual external profile if you're so proud of it, so long as everyone accepts that there's only so much people can do to ensure the authenticity of every instance of it. I think we can have that and not turn the whole affair into a Completion Meter that overrides other reasons to care. I think even if we have system-level badges they can be purged of their extrinsic factors. I think we should remember why these things were called Achievements in the first place.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:36
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Fedule posted:I think we should remember why these things were called Achievements in the first place. Because you rented Peter Jackson's King Kong: The Official Game of the Movie (2005) (X-Box 360) and achieved enlightenment immediately that this don't matter, nunna this matters. Unless you are actively comparing your achievements to someone else (in which case, what's wrong with you) they mean absolutely nothing except for whatever satisfaction the person earning them feels, whether they spent a dozen hours practicing on a boss or they flipped a switch in cheatengine and watched the number go up.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:41
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Using cheatengine for achievements is dishonourable gaming, and will be punished in the afterlife.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:43
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Fedule posted:It already doesn't mean anything to Platinum a game. So why is it so important that everyone is able to get it? If we can easily dismiss one group of achievement obsessives with a 'get over it' why can't we apply it to the other? Fedule posted:To Platinum a specific game might mean something within the context of that game (though it usually doesn't), but the second the metrics leave the game everything evaporates. The idea of one Platinum being comparable to another is laughable. Completely  that the sony/microsoft styles of achievements need to die but they've already infected people. The toxic completionist mindset isn't going away just by removing the progress meter or platinums.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:47
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Feels Villeneuve posted:Using cheatengine for achievements is dishonourable gaming, and will be punished in the afterlife. Shortly afterwards they cracked down on it and gave angelic halo hat to people who didn't cheat, but I received that hat anyway. Cheaters lament "Congratulations! Your honesty has been rewarded with a new hat!" I like organically gained achievements, but I'll be damned if I'm going to stress myself out trying to 100%
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Sep 19, 2023 16:49
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No Dignity posted:That's pretty stupid, I think games should be able to express ideas beyond 'you are valid', you'd be completely missing the point of the insane masochist achievement if you could just turn down the heat and get it for free. Like, life will go on without you getting that little tick on your account yeah, speaking as a disabled person "game is too hard" is not a disability issue and conflating the two does an immense disservice to features that really are disability issues and should have the force of moral sanction behind them, e.g. colorblind modes, subtitles, text-to-speech, hold/toggle settings, etc. there's nothing wrong with difficulty settings if they suit the game you're trying to make but there's also nothing wrong with setting an objective bar that players have to improve themselves to surpass. not only because each can be fun in different ways (although there is that!) but also because they mean different things. imo a lot of this is closely related to a really narrow and restrictive view of failure in games, as something to be avoided at all costs and which games themselves shuffle under the rug as if to say "that didn't happen" rather than exploring it as drama or part of the journey. it's not solely an issue of player perspective -- mainstream games have basically taught people to approach games this way -- but that perspective or culture is, for better or worse, the battleground on which the point is fought.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:56
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I wish there was a cheat to reduce the game speed by 25-50% because I’ve fallen off at like 75% completion with a hard stop at these bosses
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Sep 19, 2023 16:57
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sirtommygunn posted:So why is it so important that everyone is able to get it? If we can easily dismiss one group of achievement obsessives with a 'get over it' why can't we apply it to the other? Earlier I said that this got at like five different nuanced other discussions. Some day I'll write one of those enormous youtube essays about some of them but here's one attempt at a short answer to this: It would be preferable for the concept of the Platinum Trophy to die at the system level, for it to be removed, for the meter to be deleted, for all records of them to be deleted, for all references to cumulative trophy counts between games to just be permanently destroyed, leaving only the disconnected individual trophies and their rarity stats and possibly the ability for players to pin individual ones they're particularly proud of to their profiles. But before that happens, a thing that an individual game developer can do, powerless as they are to force Sony, MS and Valve to implement this change, is defuse the influence of Platinum Trophy Disease on their games by making it relatively painless to get the thing that increases the number in the system while retaining whatever internal achievement tracking system, including no system at all, the developer thinks is appropriate to their game. Notably, Sony actually already seems to be starting to do this with their first-party games. It struck me in Horizon Forbidden West that while there are a ton of kinds of open-world activity to do, for almost all of them the only requirements tied to Trophies are to do at least one of each kind, with the rest having only their intrinsic motivations to do.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:58
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i always had the opposite problem with extremely granular/customizable difficulty settings which is that it feels like the game designer is asking me to do their job of designing their game for them. this even goes back to poo poo like System Shock for me so maybe that's just a specific brain-worm i have absolutely nothing was worse about it than the Guardians of the Galaxy game though. jesus christ.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:59
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Feels Villeneuve posted:i always had the opposite problem with extremely granular/customizable difficulty settings which is that it feels like the game designer is asking me to do their job of designing their game for them. this even goes back to poo poo like System Shock for me so maybe that's just a specific brain-worm i have I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say "doing the work for the designer" but I always find myself second-guessing my choice in basically any game with difficulty options at various points (in both directions)
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Sep 19, 2023 17:04
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GOTG had settings like "power cooldown multiplier" and "health recharge delay", or some poo poo. and they gave them to you before you had even played the game like come on guys how the hell am i supposed to know what a good value for those settings are when i havent even played the game yet
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Sep 19, 2023 17:06
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its combat was also pretty bad regardless how you tweaked the settings
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Sep 19, 2023 17:10
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that was also an issue, to be fair but yeah seeing all those settings soured me on the game before i had even started it. you should show those settings if the player presses "custom" on the difficulty screen, they have zero reason to show up if i press "medium" or "hard"
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Sep 19, 2023 17:10
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I think the difficulty options a game provides help inform the atmosphere and can be part of the dialogue between the designers and players. Like sometimes I don't want the game to tell me whatever I can do is enough, I want the gauntlet to be thrown down without any getouts. It's fun, it's imposing and it creates some genuine drama in the struggle for victory
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Sep 19, 2023 17:18
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