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in other words, you are just making poo poo up
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Sep 19, 2023 22:44
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Third World Reagan posted:this is a false dichotomy I fail to see this.
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Sep 19, 2023 22:47
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Third World Reagan posted:this is a false dichotomy How so?
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Sep 19, 2023 22:48
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It would be cool to have an mmo where the pve raid loot decreases in quality/quantity the more people complete the encounter.
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Sep 19, 2023 22:49
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mbt posted:yeah this is why when you read interesting stories from ultima online or everquest or eve its always about pve encounters against motionless dragons or mindlessly farming asteroids I think the Sleeper and the drama surrounding that is probably the most famous story from EQ. Which was a sort of PvP, I guess.
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Sep 19, 2023 22:53
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1stGear posted:I think the Sleeper and the drama surrounding that is probably the most famous story from EQ. Which was a sort of PvP, I guess. Nothing is more famous than Fancy the Bard my friend
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Sep 19, 2023 22:55
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That Little Demon posted:if you had a "balanced" game and someone had 1000 hours in, you would get deleted by them. So whats the difference? Because in a game where players are on roughly the same footing it is possible that you wouldn't. I don't know how to explain the concept of competition to you.
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Sep 19, 2023 22:58
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CuddleCryptid posted:Because in a game where players are on roughly the same footing it is possible that you wouldn't. I don't know how to explain the concept of competition to you. but they aren't on the same footing? One player has 1000 hours of knowledge of the game, and one doesn't? It isn't possible that you could beat a pro in any balanced game, MMO, FG, DOTA, ect. You just wouldn't.
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Sep 19, 2023 23:08
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The same applies to sports as well you know
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Sep 19, 2023 23:09
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That Little Demon posted:but they aren't on the same footing? One player has 1000 hours of knowledge of the game, and one doesn't? It isn't possible that you could beat a pro in any balanced game, MMO, FG, DOTA, ect. You just wouldn't. Are we talking about people with 1k hours or pros? At any rate you should have more faith in yourself, people with 1k gametime lose constantly in a lot of different genres. I mean what is the story here? It's impossible to win against someone who plays four hours a day for a year so it doesn't matter if it's mechanically possible to do so? That's a depressing take on it. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Sep 19, 2023 |
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Sep 19, 2023 23:19
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Talking about 1000 hours vs 10 hours and who wins is asinine. The problem worth discussing is what happens when you have two players of roughly equal skill, but different gear. Because the majority of random matchups are going to be two mostly average players. And in those circumstances gear absolutely can be an overwhelming deciding factor. Most of the level 19 twinks in Warsong Gulch weren't any good at the game, but they had minmaxed gear they'd ground from NPCs or bought off the auction house, and that conferred them a huge advantage. And the pvp videos being shared here aren't an argument against any of this, because the entire premise behind them is that level/gear strength is overwhelmingly strong, and that overcoming it with pure skill is thus impressive. But I think this is just coming down to us having completely different expectations for what "the game" encompasses, here. Because wanting pvp to be "balanced" means removing its connections to other game systems. While if I'm understanding Demon correctly, they take a much more holistic approach: time spent researching builds, time spent grinding gear, xp, or consumables, time spent practicing mechanics, time spent making friends and enemies; they're all part of the game, part of the competition. And anything that puts the odds against them is just another challenge to overcome in some way. Here, by definition, nothing is "unfair". And more power to them and everyone else who enjoys that, but that's just not how the majority of people approach the idea of competition. There's a reason these ffa pvp slugfests struggle with retaining newbies. And it's not even that one side or the other is wrong, just that they fundamentally aren't going to be able to agree on what makes for a good PvP experience.
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Sep 19, 2023 23:45
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Don’t both sides it, this dude is just being obtuse. Obviously a new player and a super longtime player are not on equal skill footings, and it would be really weird if they somehow were. However it’s hosed up to also give the longtime player a huge, insurmountable, statistical advantage. A slight advantage is fine, sure, or if they can optimize their build a bit more. But the gear really shouldn’t cover up for a large imbalance of skill/effort. This is why boxing has weight classes. Lighter weight boxers are extremely skilled like heavyweight players, but if you put a little boxer in the ring with a heavyweight the little boxer is going to die. If the little boxer wins, that’s just incredible because the heavyweight boxer, TOTALLY INDEPENDENT OF SKILL, has a huge advantage. Normal people believe competition should be based on skill, not things you can buy/grind. Even knowledge of the game is fine, but time spent grinding things? Money spent? No. The thing with twink pvp is that everyone is capped out on how strong you can be, so they’re totally even which actually does produce a more fair competitive atmosphere. The funnier part is that even Blizzard was like “yeah twinks are in their own PVP category” and the only people upset about this were twinks, because they wanted to simply stomp other players and feel like a god. Because gear is that much of an advantage. They weren’t looking for any semblance of competition or challenge, just weird power fantasy. E: also I hate the word twink in this context jokes fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Sep 19, 2023 |
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Sep 19, 2023 23:52
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gear score is a lot like boxer mass, when you thionk about it. as boxers perfect their techniques they naturally get huger and huger. likewise giant fat bozos who've never thrown a fist in their life absolutely demolish professional featherweight boxers on the reg, which is why weight classes were invented
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Sep 20, 2023 00:49
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jokes posted:Don’t both sides it, this dude is just being obtuse. Obviously a new player and a super longtime player are not on equal skill footings, and it would be really weird if they somehow were. However it’s hosed up to also give the longtime player a huge, insurmountable, statistical advantage. A slight advantage is fine, sure, or if they can optimize their build a bit more. But the gear really shouldn’t cover up for a large imbalance of skill/effort. So you think gear score = weight. Mmm hmmm, got it lol.
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Sep 20, 2023 00:53
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yalls stupid hyperbole of my stupid analogy works if they're both boxers. youre pretending the goon is a boxer, which lol a heavyweight boxer has a huge, huge, huge advantage against a featherweight boxer. this is why they dont fight professionally across weight classes
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Sep 20, 2023 01:00
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Telarra posted:Talking about 1000 hours vs 10 hours and who wins is asinine. The problem worth discussing is what happens when you have two players of roughly equal skill, but different gear. Because the majority of random matchups are going to be two mostly average players. And in those circumstances gear absolutely can be an overwhelming deciding factor. Most of the level 19 twinks in Warsong Gulch weren't any good at the game, but they had minmaxed gear they'd ground from NPCs or bought off the auction house, and that conferred them a huge advantage. And the pvp videos being shared here aren't an argument against any of this, because the entire premise behind them is that level/gear strength is overwhelmingly strong, and that overcoming it with pure skill is thus impressive. Two Players of roughly equal skill with different gear scores but the same class can, will, and should reward the player with better gear. Because gear = time invested. How many cases of this happening in a battleground? Capture the flag? Even arenas...? what about world PVP? uh, not often?? It would have to be a World PVP Dual between two bozos trying to see if the above scenario mattered, it isn't reflective on WoW, it isn't reflective in any MMO where PVP is fun.
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Sep 20, 2023 01:02
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That Little Demon posted:Two Players of roughly equal skill with different gear scores but the same class can, will, and should reward the player with better gear. Because gear = time invested. lmfao yes we must protect the time invested That Little Demon posted:it isn't reflective on WoW, it isn't reflective in any MMO where PVP is fun. name one
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Sep 20, 2023 01:03
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jokes posted:yalls stupid hyperbole of my stupid analogy works if they're both boxers. youre pretending the goon is a boxer, which lol you are bumbling here and have no idea what you are talking about. Weight classes would be ELO rankings, not gear score. Open weight class fights happen often, and you would be very surprised at the results. Gear score in this case is you thinking nike shorts matter more than shorts from target. Or thinking a runners shoes are going to make him faster. Skill, speed, knowledge, ect would outdo anything else.
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Sep 20, 2023 01:05
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jokes posted:lmfao yes we must protect the time invested WoW Classic, p99 red, EVE????? loving DAOC was and probably still is on the private server, hell I haven't played it but I heard LOTRO was awesome too.
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Sep 20, 2023 01:07
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i like wow because gearscore is irrelevant if you simply have skill and speed and knowledge, it's what i tell every group im in
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Sep 20, 2023 01:10
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when i play wow i know that if i play my guy juuuuust right i can defeat the guy that has 10x my health and 20x my damage and only takes 10% damage, and that i love the opportunity to compete
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Sep 20, 2023 01:13
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jokes posted:i like wow because gearscore is irrelevant if you simply have skill and speed and knowledge, it's what i tell every group im in You think gear matters so much because you use it as a crutch. You can clear the hardest content in WoW classic in garbage rear end gear. You can get very very far in arena with PVE gear. You can win battlegrounds with good teamwork or an excellent premade without great gear. You are coping, and seething, and it’s okay. I’m here to tell you that it’s okay.
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Sep 20, 2023 01:14
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Gear matters because it's the best way to determine the skill level of a player at a glance. Only people who are good at a game have good gear. people with good gear they bought with gold they received from selling wow tokens are just really good at the game, as evidenced by the fact that they used their knowledge of how the game works to buy the best items in the game with real money. this is why WoW is the hallmark of good game design, theres nothing unfair about it
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Sep 20, 2023 01:15
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its not about the size of your gear, its about the motion of the skill
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Sep 20, 2023 01:23
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That Little Demon posted:Because gear = time invested. I know this is an mmo thread which is fundamentally a treadmill that brings you closer to the grave with every step but time investment doesn't actually mean anything. You can put a lifetime into the game and grind the hell out of the best gear and still be absolute trash. You'd just be trash that wins a lot because you have the best gear.
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Sep 20, 2023 01:32
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CuddleCryptid posted:I know this is an mmo thread which is fundamentally a treadmill that brings you closer to the grave with every step but time investment doesn't actually mean anything. You can put a lifetime into the game and grind the hell out of the best gear and still be absolute trash. You'd just be trash that wins a lot because you have the best gear. lol dude this is some cope cmon.... Gear isn't going to fix loving mechanics up in PVE, you won't clear the hardest stuff because of gear. It's the same in PVP. You aren't going to magically win a lot because of your gear.
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Sep 20, 2023 01:34
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jokes posted:i like wow because gearscore is irrelevant if you simply have skill and speed and knowledge, it's what i tell every group im in lol how does that work out for you
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Sep 20, 2023 01:38
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weight class and mmo loot a lot alike though. if you don't have the time/skill to get good loot, you shouldn't be able to compete with the pros. similarly, if a boxer chooses to not drink milk / eat protein (both cheaply/freely(??) available) then they don't get very large and can't compete with the heavyweights.
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Sep 20, 2023 01:41
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jokes posted:Gear matters because it's the best way to determine the skill level of a player at a glance. Only people who are good at a game have good gear. people with good gear they bought with gold they received from selling wow tokens are just really good at the game, as evidenced by the fact that they used their knowledge of how the game works to buy the best items in the game with real money. this is why WoW is the hallmark of good game design, theres nothing unfair about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=409Pjtq7jzY
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Sep 20, 2023 01:46
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I'm pretty sure being a pro boxer and getting punched in the head for hours on end would be healthier for your lifestyle than trying to grind out gear in mmos.
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Sep 20, 2023 01:46
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Weight classes in boxing are just measurements of weight so if you think about it fat guys and also mike Tyson are the same class of fighter
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Sep 20, 2023 01:49
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That Little Demon posted:Gear isn't going to fix loving mechanics up in PVE, you won't clear the hardest stuff because of gear. Uhh, what? That's one of the inherent principles of WoW PvE raid and dungeon scaling. Eventually your gear becomes so good that you can skip or outright ignore the mechanics.
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Sep 20, 2023 02:03
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Cardboard Fox posted:Uhh, what? That's one of the inherent principles of WoW PvE raid and dungeon scaling. Eventually your gear becomes so good that you can skip or outright ignore the mechanics. I mean, maybe old content? you aren't going to clear ICC or end game, current content, with the best gear only.
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Sep 20, 2023 02:05
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That Little Demon posted:You think gear matters so much because you use it as a crutch. You can clear the hardest content in WoW classic in garbage rear end gear. This makes me remember the insane cope from people who thought Vanilla was way harder than it actually was when people cleared MC in like level 40 greens the week it launched or w/e.
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Sep 20, 2023 02:07
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Ibram Gaunt posted:This makes me remember the insane cope from people who thought Vanilla was way harder than it actually was when people cleared MC in like level 40 greens the week it launched or w/e. Exactly!
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Sep 20, 2023 02:12
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That Little Demon posted:lol dude this is some cope cmon.... ?? I'm not coping, I'm perplexed. I didn't play a lot of WoW pvp because it was boring to go in at the upper limit of a bracket and stomp. I just can't comprehend why someone would equate time played with skill in an mmo, of all things, and encourage systems that requires so much grinding. Because to me it sounds like someone pulling me aside and feverishly explaining why you have to cut the filters off your cigarettes.
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Sep 20, 2023 02:25
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CuddleCryptid posted:?? I'm not coping, I'm perplexed. I didn't play a lot of WoW pvp because it was boring to go in at the upper limit of a bracket and stomp. I just can't comprehend why someone would equate time played with skill in an mmo, of all things, and encourage systems that requires so much grinding. Because to me it sounds like someone pulling me aside and feverishly explaining why you have to cut the filters off your cigarettes. I don't understand why you don't think the more time you put in something, the more skill you would have? Or, conversely, that you shouldn't be rewarded in some way for more time invested in something?
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Sep 20, 2023 02:27
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That Little Demon posted:I mean, maybe old content? you aren't going to clear ICC or end game, current content, with the best gear only. I guess I'm just missing the entire argument here. Are you saying that gear has little to no inherent advantage in PvE? The whole point of obtaining gear in an MMO is so you could see bigger numbers. When I raided in Legion, we would sometimes jump down a tier of the current expansion raiding content for fun and achievements. The raid mechanics that were once required to be played around could be safely ignored solely due to our ilevel increase. We even had newer players that had current ilevel gear that didn't need to read the raid journal because we could brute force the mechanics. I mean, even during WoD heroic raiding we skipped the first couple of boss mechanics completely once we were further into the dungeon due to having a higher overall ilevel. Of course collective skill plays a roll in everything, but to say there's no advantage in having higher strength on your character that does strength damage....
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Sep 20, 2023 02:29
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this argument is so weird. like of course numerical differences affect things, ceteris paribus. that doesn't mean skill isn't a factor. you can argue the degree to which skill and gear matter, but to flat out deny that gear has an effect would be bizarre. is that what's happening because I feel like I must be misunderstanding
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Sep 20, 2023 02:33
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World War Mammories posted:this argument is so weird. like of course numerical differences affect things, ceteris paribus. that doesn't mean skill isn't a factor. you can argue the degree to which skill and gear matter, but to flat out deny that gear has an effect would be bizarre. is that what's happening because I feel like I must be misunderstanding The only way the argument makes sense if it TLD considers obtaining gear part of being skilled and therefore the person with better gear is by default more skilled.
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Sep 20, 2023 02:36
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