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i had sulfuras on a classic era private wow server and i feel that battlegrounds were perfectly balanced around me having sulfuras and everyone on the enemy team waiting to respawn
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Sep 20, 2023 02:37
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blatman posted:i had sulfuras on a classic era private wow server and i feel that battlegrounds were perfectly balanced around me having sulfuras and everyone on the enemy team waiting to respawn I agree with this post, PvP in MMOs is at its best and most balanced when I am by far the strongest without needing to try
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Sep 20, 2023 02:40
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That Little Demon posted:I don't understand why you don't think the more time you put in something, the more skill you would have? Or, conversely, that you shouldn't be rewarded in some way for more time invested in something? Because if you spent 10,000 hours running instancesbfor gear then you get good at running instances for gear. But for your second question, because no other competitive multiplayer game works that way? If you tried to say "if you play this game for 200 hours your get more health for your avatar" in a fighting game or strategy games you would be buried at sea within a day. RTS games tried that and failed horribly, looking at you Age of Empires F2P. Shooters have some of that now but they didn't used to, and shooters that take themselves seriously like Counterstrike only deal in skins. Even MOBAs aren't like that. The only ones that put a huge grind between you and playing pvp properly are MMOs and that's why they have the reputation that they do. You don't *gain* anything from running for gear for months, it's entirely a timesink and one that wouldn't fundamentally change the game mechanics if you took it out of structured PvP.
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Sep 20, 2023 02:42
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Hellioning posted:The only way the argument makes sense if it TLD considers obtaining gear part of being skilled and therefore the person with better gear is by default more skilled. I mean you can imagine two identical mages in some raiding guild on some wow classic server. both at, idk, 15 days /played and 25 hours spent clearing molten core, which is like 10-15 runs, probably. hell, call it 25 runs, I know the modern speed records are crazy. you can expect a talisman of ephemeral power to drop, what, every four or five runs? so the odds are pretty good that one of those mages has a ToEP and one doesn't, despite being equal in all other ways. and clearly the ToEP has a measurable effect for like presence of mind pyroblast kills and so on - fond memories of watching joink pvp videos circa 2006. all else being equal, the player with one will do better than the person without, because the only difference between them is the loot roll. and if nothing else, of course the gear has an effect because otherwise people wouldn't be putting in the effort to get it in the first place. so I must be misunderstanding what the argument is
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Sep 20, 2023 03:29
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jokes posted:This is why boxing has weight classes. Lighter weight boxers are extremely skilled like heavyweight players, but if you put a little boxer in the ring with a heavyweight the little boxer is going to die. If the little boxer wins, that’s just incredible because the heavyweight boxer, TOTALLY INDEPENDENT OF SKILL, has a huge advantage. Normal people believe competition should be based on skill, not things you can buy/grind. Even knowledge of the game is fine, but time spent grinding things? Money spent? No. this is so wrong it hurts
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Sep 20, 2023 03:57
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Ibram Gaunt posted:This makes me remember the insane cope from people who thought Vanilla was way harder than it actually was when people cleared MC in like level 40 greens the week it launched or w/e. Vanilla was way harder because I wasn't just fighting Ragnaros, I was also fighting my frame rate.
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Sep 20, 2023 05:23
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That Little Demon posted:Nothing is more famous than Fancy the Bard my friend Fansy*
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Sep 20, 2023 06:11
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MMO pvp interactions are best in the context of pve, when you need to fight or compete with players for access to difficult and rewarding pve encounters imo. Gear matters but you know this at the start and you yourself decide when you’re ready.
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Sep 20, 2023 06:29
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an iksar marauder posted:MMO pvp interactions are best in the context of pve, when you need to fight or compete with players for access to difficult and rewarding pve encounters imo. Gear matters but you know this at the start and you yourself decide when you’re ready. I feel like world pvp and the faction divide really helped bring wow's world to life. Everyone starts out safe and sheltered in their own corners of the world, finds their way to their faction's big hubs and spends a good while in the relatively segregated and safe noob zones. Then as your character grows in power and your toolkit expands, you get to take on more challenging zones with more quests, rarer resources and (omg) hostile players! It makes every journey to these areas unique, dangerous and interesting, and your character's preparedness (and your own skills) to take on pvp challenges becomes a factor in your pve success too. Having a whole half of the server be a hostile faction who control their own zones, and who you encounter more frequently as you venture into the dangerous contested areas of the world, breathes a lot of life into the gameworld.
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Sep 20, 2023 07:03
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an iksar marauder posted:MMO pvp interactions are best in the context of pve, when you need to fight or compete with players for access to difficult and rewarding pve encounters imo. Gear matters but you know this at the start and you yourself decide when you’re ready. Only when everyone involved wants that. I think the common model of "let's make a complete PvE game but put some of our tempting PvE content out in PvP areas so people have to PvP to get the good stuff" just creates a lot of really frustrated players who don't actually want to PvP and are just getting it over with as quickly as they can. If the game can be played as a PvE game, people are going to want to do just that and really don't want to be pushed into PvP to get PvE stuff.
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Sep 20, 2023 07:48
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Didn't WoW at one point have standardized gear in pvp? And then players cried so much about it the devs had no choice but to revert it. People don't want fair pvp in their mmos (see also why gw2 pvp is dead)
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Sep 20, 2023 08:31
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Sachant posted:Only when everyone involved wants that. I think the common model of "let's make a complete PvE game but put some of our tempting PvE content out in PvP areas so people have to PvP to get the good stuff" just creates a lot of really frustrated players who don't actually want to PvP and are just getting it over with as quickly as they can. If the game can be played as a PvE game, people are going to want to do just that and really don't want to be pushed into PvP to get PvE stuff. You can make pve content pvp by making access to the areas competitive through removing instancing. Also I think it’s fine to make a game not everyone likes, people constantly make games nobody likes so it may even be an improvement
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Sep 20, 2023 08:56
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Mr. Neutron posted:People don't want fair pvp in their mmos (see also why gw2 pvp is dead) If you want fair pvp you can just play any of the counter-strikes or dotas or overwatches or rocket leagues that offer tighter and (presumably) better balanced gameplay completely focused on a fair pvp experience. MMO players like that the work they put into their character translates into power in both pve and pvp. Balancing a MMO with lots of classes and items into providing a fair and balanced pvp experience is always a nightmare and likely ends up screwing pve balance if that pvp balance is somehow ever achieved.
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Sep 20, 2023 09:10
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FFXIV solved hotbar-combat MMO PvP anyway: Flat gear score, battlegrounds only, and parallel ruleset. Also the rewards are purely cosmetic.
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Sep 20, 2023 09:25
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FF14 battlegrounds are terrible though and just done as a chore to get resources by like 95% of the playerbase, so I'm not sure you can say they've solved anything
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Sep 20, 2023 09:46
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I really like FFXIV's 5v5 Crystal Conflict PvP.
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Sep 20, 2023 09:51
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No Dignity posted:FF14 battlegrounds are terrible though and just done as a chore to get resources by like 95% of the playerbase, so I'm not sure you can say they've solved anything “Done as a chore to get resources” is most content in most MMOs/GAAS/battle passes.
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Sep 20, 2023 10:09
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Itzena posted:“Done as a chore to get resources” is most content in most MMOs/GAAS/battle passes. Yeah and that stuff all sucks. Like if the best thing you can say about a gamemode is 'it's a relatively painless way of getting some tomestones once a day' that's a lovely game mode
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Sep 20, 2023 10:29
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I dunno man, I enjoy FFXIV's larger pvp system.
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Sep 20, 2023 10:32
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Crystalline Conflict is okay (if insanely undercut by not letting you queue with friends for it) but the large scale battlegrounds mode is an insane mess and I've very rarely met anyone who actually enjoyed doing it and wasn't just doing their chores in there
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Sep 20, 2023 10:40
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Mr. Neutron posted:Didn't WoW at one point have standardized gear in pvp? The next money-printing MMO will have perfected bots that are indistinguishable from newbie players, right down to poorly spelled, ungramatical shouts/PMs. When you can make the "I NEED to own scrubs to feel better about my lovely life" crowd believe that they are actually doing that instead of rolling bots, they will pay you FOREVER.
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Sep 20, 2023 10:49
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ChickenMedium posted:The next money-printing MMO will have perfected bots that are indistinguishable from newbie players, right down to poorly spelled, ungramatical shouts/PMs. When you can make the "I NEED to own scrubs to feel better about my lovely life" crowd believe that they are actually doing that instead of rolling bots, they will pay you FOREVER. Let me tell you about blood of steel that does this. They took profiles from people in beta, and probably at other times, and applied it to the bots. People are so paranoid about it that they friend you after the match as a bot check.
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Sep 20, 2023 10:52
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Third World Reagan posted:Let me tell you about blood of steel that does this. So they haven't perfected it yet. They either need the bot to accept the friend invite or refuse it and send a string of PMs calling the player a selection of random slurs.
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Sep 20, 2023 11:05
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The funniest part is people complain that no, a player would not run directly at the enemy, these AI are bad. But then I watch actual players do this and start screaming about their team not following them. You just can't tell the difference some times. EDIT: I will recommend blood of steel to anyone that can put up with garbage phone tier UIs and jank rear end china games. It is fun with friends. It isn't a good game though.
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Sep 20, 2023 11:07
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I loved pvp in Vanilla WoW, because as a mostly pve player who barely pvp'd, if I wanted a change of pace I could just go pvp in my raiding gear and effortlessly stomp anyone, including the higher ranked hardcore pvpers, because the combination of gear and being a rogue meant your margin of error was so insurmountable you basically had to get dc'd to die. It was the most fun I've ever had in mmo pvp because after like 10-20 hours of pvp you were at the soft skill ceiling, making it extremely accessible for casual play. This of course was all before they added actual pvp gear with resilience. I tried out doing the roguecraft poo poo too, because it didn't actually take much skill at all. It just took a lot of patience, because you'd just do the same easy rogue pvp routine, but you had to do it for longer without slipping up because your TTK was worse and if you did slip, you wouldn't have much of a margin to recover. I know consistency is technically an expression of skill, but the whole thing was just so easy to pick up and do it always just felt like a gimmick for me. Was still fun as poo poo. A while after the roguecraft video came out basically everyone was doing it though so it got old fast. Mind you rogues weren't the only broken thing in pvp, but they were definitely the easiest.
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Sep 20, 2023 11:52
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ChickenMedium posted:The next money-printing MMO will have perfected bots that are indistinguishable from newbie players, right down to poorly spelled, ungramatical shouts/PMs. When you can make the "I NEED to own scrubs to feel better about my lovely life" crowd believe that they are actually doing that instead of rolling bots, they will pay you FOREVER. The next money printer? Fortnite already does this
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Sep 20, 2023 12:10
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blatman posted:i had sulfuras on a classic era private wow server and i feel that battlegrounds were perfectly balanced around me having sulfuras and everyone on the enemy team waiting to respawn
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Sep 20, 2023 12:31
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Mister Olympus posted:The next money printer? Fortnite already does this *defensive whining* "no it doesn't, I'm just good at it!" This does backfire sometimes though, I played a game like that a while back where you played a the role of a wizard, and I got #1 in three consecutive matches before going "wow winning is trivial this is boring as gently caress" Talking on the steam forums afterwards it turns out that the first 15-odd matches were against bots disguised as real players and you had to play a while to face real people. But since I had already grown bored with the game I just never went back. Itzena posted:“Done as a chore to get resources” is most content in most MMOs/GAAS/battle passes. This is the whole issue, unfortunately. People playing mmos want to grind to get gear to justify the grind, even if it means they aren't having fun while doing it. It's an *extremely* unhealthy mindset but that is the bread and butter of the genre as a whole. If you put two years into an mmo then you should be able to crush people who are newer just because otherwise all that time was for nothing. Its not a MMO as a social experience, it's a number goes up skinner box. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Sep 20, 2023 |
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Sep 20, 2023 12:42
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja1j7xWpB3w still the best mmo pvp video
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Sep 20, 2023 13:48
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Itzena posted:FFXIV solved hotbar-combat MMO PvP anyway: “Solved” by making it extremely boring not fun bullshit, sure.
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Sep 20, 2023 14:17
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mmos with open pvp own, but factions are bullshit i hope they die forever with wow
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Sep 20, 2023 15:17
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Truga posted:mmos with open pvp own, but factions are bullshit i hope they die forever with wow sounds like something a crybaby Alliance player would say
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Sep 20, 2023 15:22
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i didn't play wow but i tried other mmos that tried it, and it might have been ok in wow with 7 gorillion players, but splitting the playerbase is really fuckin bad e: also, just let people play together regardless of what town they started in, imo
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Sep 20, 2023 15:29
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Third World Reagan posted:I dunno man, I enjoy FFXIV's larger pvp system. same, but it's a very different enjoy to how i played l2 castle sieges, war of emperium or eve-o i queue, get top damage, sometimes even win, and then forget about it. honestly couldn't tell you what frontline i played yesterday meanwhile i still remember that time i bubbled 2 bob titans in delve with a broadsword or how i bumped a mothership from the edge of a bubble in a tempest so we could kill it, and i haven't played that stupid game since 2011 lol
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Sep 20, 2023 15:38
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Tbh if you are going to make a faction system then sticking to your guns is the best way to do it. WoW was able to pull it off because that's the entire basis of the series and the population was so massive that it didn't create low pop factions. There is also certainly something to be said for creating an attachment to a city or character when occasionally you're called to defend it from an attack by the opposite faction. WoW's biggest failing in that regard is taking the "alliance is pretty and good, horde is ugly and bad, but actually the alliance is a dogmatic, human-supremic monarchy while the horde is a relatively egalitarian republic" theme and turning it into "the new leader is a genocidal maniac but it's actually a good thing for reasons we'll explain in three expansions". Which is just "alliance good, horde bad" with a paint of coat over it. The faction system I don't understand is the one in FFXIV which seems to be entirely there for its own sake.
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Sep 20, 2023 15:41
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XIV had factions for splitting the 3 teams in pvp, which sucked because you needed to be same GC to play with friends, so they added a "freelancer" option that let you play as any team but you still get progress on "your" team, and now that option is just permanently enabled you can't choose teams anymore you also can't queue with 7 friends anymore either though, and that sucks vvv: yeah this is why maelstrom had 30min queues while flames was instant Truga fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Sep 20, 2023 |
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Sep 20, 2023 15:47
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xiv has 3 factions so you can tell who the people who like being wrong are when they don't pick Maelstrom
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Sep 20, 2023 16:08
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I picked Flames because it's ~*~OpTiMaL~*~
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Sep 20, 2023 16:21
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I signed up to fight and die for the glory of the Yellow Adders because their city is relaxing.
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Sep 20, 2023 16:31
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i went maelstrom to defend the honor of the good men and women of the aetheryte plaza
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Sep 20, 2023 16:36
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