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As a compromise the P6 MC will be a cool calm blade-wielding high school girl
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Sep 20, 2023 23:45
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its hard to conflate any one game's numbers out to a generalized statement because games handle these things differently. for instance, in mass effect's case, male shepard was on the box, he was in all the marketing, most of the discussion about the game was the alien ladies you could gently caress, etc. the vast majority of players buying the game choosing the thing the game told them they bought the game for is not really a surprise. the number of people picking femshep being low isn't some condemnation of sexist gamers, its a result of how the game is and how it was marketed.
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Sep 20, 2023 23:46
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 for a counter example, most FF14 censuses say that the majority of characters at level 90/have cleared the MSQ/are active/etc are female. (taking all characters total gives misleading results because bots are just slampicking default human male)
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Sep 20, 2023 23:48
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for mass effect isn't it also the case that in ME1 and 2 the only way to play without dealing with the unavoidably crappy CaC tools was to play default maleshep, with femshep only getting a custom default in ME3 (and then the LEs of 1/2)?
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Sep 20, 2023 23:49
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Endorph posted:its hard to conflate any one game's numbers out to a generalized statement because games handle these things differently. for instance, in mass effect's case, male shepard was on the box, he was in all the marketing, most of the discussion about the game was the alien ladies you could gently caress, etc. the vast majority of players buying the game choosing the thing the game told them they bought the game for is not really a surprise. the number of people picking femshep being low isn't some condemnation of sexist gamers, its a result of how the game is and how it was marketed. I never said it was. I said "people slampick Generic Male Lead given other options" and at least part of that is that people slampick whoever the very first option is in the game, which is also why Generic Shepard is also Soldier. I suppose I could have said "slampick the generic default lead" but that is almost overwhelmingly a man or male-presenting character. (Though some developers have said they tried defaulting to female characters and saw an uptick there!) It's less that people won't play a female lead and more that if you present an option as default the default option is going to get picked a whole loving lot of the time. That doesn't mean having choices isn't worthwhile and can't be a selling point. Endorph posted:
Yep, I was actually about to bring that up, because it brings up the interesting idea that most of the census data we have is generic as opposed to hardcore players. (though it being an MMO and Fantasias and so-on all complicates matters further.) People who devote a lot of time to a game are probably more likely to care about character customization in general. Motto posted:for mass effect isn't it also the case that in ME1 and 2 the only way to play without dealing with the unavoidably crappy CaC tools was to play default maleshep, with femshep only getting a custom default in ME3 (and then the LEs of 1/2)? Not that I've heard. The CAC sucked but even aside from that Soldier was overwhelmingly chosen because it was the default option. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Sep 20, 2023 |
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Sep 20, 2023 23:51
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ImpAtom posted:Okay. Let's rephrase this. See, like, here's the rub: I don't care about the amount of money it would cost. I know that sounds glib, but I should not be expected to care about Atlus' financial stake in this game. People are stating it's "too much work" like it's the only answer that matters, and on some level it is, they're right. But I'm not satisfied by it, because my problem is that they're continually marginalizing some of my favorite parts of this game and treating them as worthless, or at least dispensable. The amount of money and work it would be to include is irrelevant to that criticism. It presupposes a world where this game had to exist, and I don't think that's true. The other thing is that you're inadvertently arguing for there to never be a female protagonist in Persona ever again. I'm not saying you're sexist, I'm just saying that's what you're arguing. Hell, you could extend it to any game ever, at that rate. If 75% of players or more are going to choose to play as dudes, and many will choose not to buy it if forced to play as a woman, then why do it? That may seem specious, but that's the line of argument you're pursuing here, and unfortunately it seems like the suits agree with it. And to me, that seems like a really lovely thing to just take as a given. It makes the future of this series seem really bleak if people can't even imagine anything but another male teenage silent protagonist for fear of upsetting the sales figures. Besides that, I think all the poo poo you're putting in my mouth is ridiculous and I obviously did not say and do not agree with any of it.
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Sep 20, 2023 23:54
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Motto posted:for mass effect isn't it also the case that in ME1 and 2 the only way to play without dealing with the unavoidably crappy CaC tools was to play default maleshep, with femshep only getting a custom default in ME3 (and then the LEs of 1/2)? This is 100% the case, there was no "default" Femshep in the original releases, and the custom characters all looked terrible
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Sep 20, 2023 23:57
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Arist posted:See, like, here's the rub: I don't care about the amount of money it would cost. I know that sounds glib, but I should not be expected to care about Atlus' financial stake in this game. People are stating it's "too much work" like it's the only answer that matters, and on some level it is, they're right. But I'm not satisfied by it, because my problem is that they're continually marginalizing some of my favorite parts of this game and treating them as worthless, or at least dispensable. The amount of money and work it would be to include is irrelevant to that criticism. It presupposes a world where this game had to exist, and I don't think that's true. So here's the other rub: People are not discussing your viewpoint of the world. You went in going aggro at people who were discussing things divorced from their own personal feelings about things. Nobody is obligated to frame their discussion around what you personally care about or pretend like other factors don't exist. Here is my personal feeling: I think the FemMC is cool and I think she should be in the game regardless of cost, difficulty, or consequence. If I had my way this would be true of every Persona game and also Persona games in general would be better in a lot of other ways too. I think it is genuinely disappointing that FemMC is not in P3R and it makes me less excited for the game in general. Here is what I was saying outside of my personal feelings. Persona 3: Reload (TM) is a game being released by a for-profit mid-tier company whose primary goal is to turn as much of a profit as they can off the video game they are releasing. The for profit company who is releasing the game has reasons to believe that investing the time, money and effort into a second campaign for their RPG remake is unlikely to turn a reasonable benefit. I am not happy about this but this is the state of the world and acknowledging that this is the state of the world is not condoning it. It is not defending Atlus, nor agreeing with Atlus, nor condoning Atlus to go "This is why they made this choice, it sucks and I am unhappy with it, but I am not an Atlus corporate bean counter whose beginning and end of care about the Persona series is if they can sell 5 more copies if they include 22% more homophobia."
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Sep 21, 2023 00:04
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How much merch of FemC are they going to not be able to sell because she’s not in the game and would that be enough to counter the extr cost
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Sep 21, 2023 00:11
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DC Murderverse posted:How much merch of FemC are they going to not be able to sell because she’s not in the game and would that be enough to counter the extr cost
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Sep 21, 2023 00:14
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coiol posted:As a compromise the P6 MC will be a cool calm blade-wielding high school girl  I'm ready to have the same conversation once we get news of P6 out in a few more years too 
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Sep 21, 2023 00:15
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Like poo poo, you want a controversial opinion? I dislike the choice made to give players control over the NPCs in P3. I think it has a net negative impact on how the game plays and even if it is still an option the fact that the game isn't designed around it means the NPC AI is inherently shittier by default because it isn't something the players have to design around. I would have much rather that Atlus went back to that for P3R and actually put the time and effort into making it a more significant and involved gameplay mechanic. I also think the Answer is poo poo in both gameplay and in what it does to the story and genuinely dislike FES more than the original because of it despite the other improvements made to FES, and I think it doesn't belong in the game at all. I am not going to go "Atlus is a bunch of shitheads for including player controlled characters and you have to be an Atlus apologist to state otherwise" because while that is my opinion I am well and perfectly aware that "you can control your character and don't have to risk dying to an NPC misaction" is a significantly greater selling point than thematic tone and relevance. The fact I don't agree or think it hurts the game's tone and feeling in a negative way in favor of easier success doesn't mean I think anyone who disagrees is shilling for Atlus. Give me a P3 where your party members actively suck at first. Have them start to learn teamwork as the plot/SLs progress. Maybe give the protagonist some way to give them directions but they might disagree or refuse to listen and you have to deal with that. Make it somewhat predictable (Junpei will try to constantly attack when he's being a pissbaby about not being the leader, Ken just flat-out won't heal Shinjiro, Akihiro will go for risky attacks, etc) and then have that smooth out as the team builds. Encourage the main character to have a diverse selection of different Persona to deal with the various flaws of their party members where being a support/healbot is as valid because Akihiro hits like a truck but you need to keep slapping an Elemental Wall on him. Make Koromaru a reliable party member, maybe even the only one you can directly order, but you have to train him in social links. I know nobody but me would play this game but I would love it and feel it is more true to the spirit of P3 than Fes or even PSP. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Sep 21, 2023 |
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Sep 21, 2023 00:15
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Dude, I've been trying to be even-handed this entire time after, admittedly, a poorly-worded vent, and you've been a condescending rear end in virtually every response, so maybe get off the high horse. And the point I was making in that vent is that saying "it would be a lot of work" is a pointless, empty response that addresses nothing about the underlying issue. It's just rubbing it in. That was the core of my issue with the conversation, not whatever you invented. ImpAtom posted:I am not going to go "Atlus is a bunch of shitheads for including player controlled characters and you have to be an Atlus apologist to state otherwise" because while that is my opinion I am well and perfectly aware that "you can control your character and don't have to risk dying to an NPC misaction" is a significantly greater selling point than thematic tone and relevance. The fact I don't agree or think it hurts the game's tone and feeling in a negative way in favor of easier success doesn't mean I think anyone who disagrees is shilling for Atlus. Like, loving chill Arist fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Sep 21, 2023 |
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Sep 21, 2023 00:16
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tbh as an outside observer i think you could both do with chilling out
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Sep 21, 2023 00:17
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I agree that The Answer sucks though and I would prefer it not be included (but also they've already addressed it in 4 and Arena so uhhhhh gently caress)
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Sep 21, 2023 00:18
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Arist posted:And the point I was making in that vent is that saying "it would be a lot of work" is a pointless, empty response that addresses nothing about the underlying issue. It's just rubbing it in. I guess I genuinely don't get what you mean here. How is it rubbing it in? I am/was admittedly pretty tricked off by what felt like you suddenly coming at me, but I'm not trying to make you feel bad that what you want isn't in the game. If I say "they probably didn't include it because they didn't consider it worthwhile" that isn't me saying that what you like isn't actually valid, interesting or worthwhile. It is flat-out a neutral statement about why Atlus probably isn't doing something you and I would personally enjoy. Like honestly the way I approach things in situations like this is I try my best to figure out exactly why things are happening the way they are. I am not stating this to be mean or hurt your feelings or make you feel like what you feel is worthless or invalid. It's how I process things and come to terms with frustrating situations that I have no power to change. I am 100% genuinely sorry if I upset you without realizing it. (and 100% sorry I was sniping at you past that. I was upset and lashed out. That was just me being angry and unfair and I am sorry for that.)
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Sep 21, 2023 00:25
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Imp: I like it when there's friction between party members in the mechanics Imp: also doesn't like the part of the game where the party members actually come to heads and disagree about a course of action in The Answer contradictory much? /joking joking joking not serious not serious not serious
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Sep 21, 2023 00:30
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Whatever. I was just trying to say that the obvious corollary of "it's too much work" is "it's not worth the effort." I get that you want to understand this logically, but to me, that logic doesn't really matter. Sometimes, people just wanna be fuckin' angry, and it's okay to let them be.
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Sep 21, 2023 00:31
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Alder posted:I'm ready to have the same conversation once we get news of P6 out in a few more years too I’m curious what problematic romance option will be included this time that fans will have to pretend doesn’t exist, maybe with your “not biological actually” sibling or the Dojima/Sojiro caretaker figure. I get that I’m not the target audience anymore as an almost 40-year-old man, but I feel like Atlus is really good at fumbling the ball at the 1-yard line by making an awesome game full of interesting characters to get to know better but then including romance options for your teacher who works part-time as a maid in full costume and refers to you as “Master” and the disgraced doctor who ignores informed consent and performs medical experiments to see what side effects her new drug might have before giving it to a child who is no longer her patient
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Sep 21, 2023 00:32
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Junpei posted:Imp: I like it when there's friction between party members in the mechanics That is actually the one part of the Answer I really like. I just dislike the walkback from "The protagonist died" to "The protagonist is, uh, a statue and we're totally going to hint he can come back to life someday" stuff. Arist posted:Whatever. I was just trying to say that the obvious corollary of "it's too much work" is "it's not worth the effort." I get that you want to understand this logically, but to me, that logic doesn't really matter. Sometimes, people just wanna be fuckin' angry, and it's okay to let them be. I think this is just something we'll fundamentally disagree on. I don't like being angry and don't think it helps anything. (With regards to like video games. Absolutely does not apply to anything more significant. This also is me, personally, if being angry helps you process feelings then that is entirely fair.) All I can try to do is say that if I seem like I'm talking through something, it isn't meant to belittle your feelings.
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Sep 21, 2023 00:37
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https://twitter.com/AtlusTracker/status/1704426774199754853 Anyway, they appear to have included a "Roll Back" function in the system menu which will allow you to go back and replay number of in-game days. Kind of weird for P3, honestly, because nothing you're doing in the moment is all that consequential on its own in the long term, but maybe with P5-style Social Link benefits that'll make more sense? I dunno. Also, we already had a tool for this, it was called "rotating saves" 
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Sep 21, 2023 00:41
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Arist posted:https://twitter.com/AtlusTracker/status/1704426774199754853 I can absolutely see it having a purpose because lord knows I've had days where I absolutely intended talk to someone for one of those 1-day requests and then forgot about it until two days later.
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Sep 21, 2023 00:44
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i feel like having a rollback function goes against the game's themes tbh
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Sep 21, 2023 00:47
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Endorph posted:i feel like having a rollback function goes against the game's themes tbh I mean I agree, but they are also right that it's not meaningfully different from rotating saves. Thus the real answer should be autosaves only
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Sep 21, 2023 00:50
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Atlus is too cowardly. They should though, Merciless at least should be Ironman only.
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Sep 21, 2023 00:51
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Gaius Marius posted:Atlus is too cowardly. They should though, Merciless at least should be Ironman only. A part of me would love a built-in Nuzlock feature for a SMT game. Or a randomizer but the way demons/persona work probably makes that impossible.
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Sep 21, 2023 00:52
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I also think that letting you control the party is lame. I'm sure they won't include good party AI options like theo riginal 3 had either and will use the garbage AI from 4 and 5 which was an active detriment to use so it's not even an option.
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Sep 21, 2023 00:58
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ImpAtom posted:A part of me would love a built-in Nuzlock feature for a SMT game. If you had the Human's as frail squishmallows who have personae that guard them with a separate HP pool, and make it so you dismiss them if their persona is destroyed you could have an interesting system. You'd have to go back to P1 and 2 of allowing your party members to equip personae and make obtaining them easier, but it could be an interesting refresh to the system. God knows the Persona system as it stands now is at it's absolute limit.
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Sep 21, 2023 00:59
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Gaius Marius posted:If you had the Human's as frail squishmallows who have personae that guard them with a separate HP pool, and make it so you dismiss them if their persona is destroyed you could have an interesting system. You'd have to go back to P1 and 2 of allowing your party members to equip personae and make obtaining them easier, but it could be an interesting refresh to the system. God knows the Persona system as it stands now is at it's absolute limit. There is actually a recent indie 'pokemon' clone called Cassette Beasts that does something like this. You have your main character who has a health pool and they transform into the captured monsters who are a health pool on top of them. When they get defeated your main character eats some of the HP loss. Also to capture a new monster you have to be in human form and risk taking damage and your partner in the fight can try to defend/weaken/etc. It even as a Nuzlock mode that lets things break if they are defeated. (Cassette Beasts is extremely good please play it.)
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Sep 21, 2023 01:02
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I really liked Cassette Beasts but something around the midgame annoyed me and I haven't gone back. Loved everything about it though.
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Sep 21, 2023 01:10
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The Theurgia mechanic and Metaphor might be Atlus trying to experiment with some new ideas in a safe space (a remake and an original IP) before they head in a new direction with P6, it comes to mind.
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Sep 21, 2023 01:10
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ImpAtom posted:
On this front... The smt gacha game (not that I recommend playing it) has a half decent roguelike mode that would absolutely slay if adapted for a full price release. You fight alongside your demons ala smt, and choose a low level demon to start with. You can do demon negotiations, pick up skills and fusions from panels in the dungeon with the goal of building/adapting a strong enough team to clear the bosses. There's even a fusion accident mechanic which is high risk/high reward. I'd kill for a fully featured version of it. But it's a gacha so the mode as it stands gets boring real quick cause they'd rather you be buying pulls instead of playing with loaned demons.
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Sep 21, 2023 01:37
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Big fan of The Answer myself. Genuinely bummed that it isn't included with the remake, but can why with how unpopular it is. I feel like you could make it a lot less of a slog gameplay wise by just adding the compendium and adding a heal area right before the bosses of the areas instead of just having to go back to the hub and do the dungeon over if you're too beat up to take them on. I also feel like the idea that The Answer walks back on the MC being dead is a really weird way to look at it. It doesn't really change the fact that he died, its just that his soul is trapped there acting as the seal. I always interpreted the idea of "freeing" him as just letting his soul pass on since they very explicitly say that his body is very much dead.
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Sep 21, 2023 02:26
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Saagonsa posted:Big fan of The Answer myself. Genuinely bummed that it isn't included with the remake, but can why with how unpopular it is. I feel like you could make it a lot less of a slog gameplay wise by just adding the compendium and adding a heal area right before the bosses of the areas instead of just having to go back to the hub and do the dungeon over if you're too beat up to take them on. Yep. Feel the same way on all counts.
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Sep 21, 2023 02:32
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They could have added The Answer and like... Tweaked it to be more fun? Idk
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Sep 21, 2023 02:34
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Endorph posted:one big factor in femc's existence that people gloss over is that in japan the psp was extremely, extremely popular with women late in its life. when its price started getting cut, it gained a second life as a platform for visual novels, rhythm games, puzzle games, otome games, and RPGs with otome elements. it was genuinely seen as trendy with high school girls. That's a good point. I forgot about how big otome games were on the platform.
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Sep 21, 2023 02:35
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Endorph posted:female MC isnt unpopular but every one of those polls shows male MC beating her The only thing I've learned in this entire conversation is that people who vote in popularity polls will never see Heaven.
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Sep 21, 2023 02:44
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coiol posted:I’m curious what problematic romance option will be included this time that fans will have to pretend doesn’t exist, maybe with your “not biological actually” sibling or the Dojima/Sojiro caretaker figure. Your caretaker in P6 is your aunt, and you can date her. But it's "ok" because she is not related to you by blood. Her husband, who tragically passed away (you later learn this was because of the antagonist), was your uncle. The S-Link involves helping her come to terms with his death. This is my pitch, I think I have what it takes to follow in Hashino's footsteps
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Sep 21, 2023 02:46
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very funny that they just didn't recast Liz, for the record
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Sep 21, 2023 02:51
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I'm a person who is not going to play P3R specifically because it lacks FeMC, if that affects anyone's stats.Arist posted:This is 100% the case, there was no "default" Femshep in the original releases, and the custom characters all looked terrible That doesn't sound right, I know I went with the "default" Shepard (short brown hair, eyebrow scar) and she looked fine. I guess she was custom design 1 or whatever, but I don't think there was anything wrong with her model.
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Sep 21, 2023 03:33
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