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Tiny Myers posted:I feel like all the arguments about "EGS killed it/is the worst thing ever" pale in comparison to poo poo like "one side can chain iframes until they become literally invincible". That's a disgustingly severe exploit and any game that did not fix that within like, a week or two tops, would immediately lose all of my goodwill. The issue was that they couldn't fix that problem. Doing execution moves was an absolutely critical to the health and ammo economy of the game, there were whole mechanics built exclusively around it. But there is no point to a health gain execution if you can just lose it all during the long rear end animation, so the design demands i-frames. If the animation was only half a second long them it would be what it would be, but the only way they could change it without completely overhauling the entire game would be to make executions have a cooldown on them which would annihilate survivor, uh, survivability. It's more perplexing to wonder if they just never recognized this issue in testing or if by the time they got to testing the feature was way too central and they couldn't pull it out. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Sep 21, 2023 |
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Sep 21, 2023 21:53
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I'm watching a VOD of someone testing out the PTB stuff, and the new anti-camp feature treats a killer carrying a different survivor down to the basement hook next to you as face-camping. 
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Sep 21, 2023 22:00
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Vanguard Warden posted:I'm watching a VOD of someone testing out the PTB stuff, and the new anti-camp feature treats a killer carrying a different survivor down to the basement hook next to you as face-camping. It seems to only care about your proximity to the hooked survivor and whether other survivors are also close to it. Doesn't seem like it takes anything else into account.
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Sep 21, 2023 22:01
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Vanguard Warden posted:I'm watching a VOD of someone testing out the PTB stuff, and the new anti-camp feature treats a killer carrying a different survivor down to the basement hook next to you as face-camping. I mean, it still fits the goal of the change. If the killer is hanging out near you you get a chance to escape. I'm sure it would be a nightmare to code "Okay disable it when you've got a survivor you're carrying in the basement but only then".
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Sep 21, 2023 22:02
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Seemed like if you were dropping off a survivor and getting back to work the chances are small.
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Sep 21, 2023 22:05
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Aside from the Epic thing, my real problem with Evil Dead is that playing as the demon had so much potential for cool, funny, dramatic stuff they really should have catered to instead of the survivor power fantasy element they focused exclusively on instead (and even that they made sort of sweaty and unfun). Take the aforementioned car possession. There could have been so much fun to be had possessing objects and cars. Lock people in and drive them away! Chase after them and make them dodge around trees! Like so much else about the game, excitement for the possibilities quickly slammed headfirst into the reality that you weren't really allowed to do much of anything as the demon, every cool thing you could potentially do was built so that you can never actually do it, seemingly intentionally. Stuff was either pointless, or made up of countervailing hard counters. Take possession of player characters. This is simultaneously unfun as the survivor, because its basically a time-out while you're possessed and you have nothing you can do and it puts all the power in the hands of people who are not you, and it's unfun as the demon because all the other survivors have a big long list of hard counters that make it a waste of time, effort, and energy. It's not even fun for the other players, really. So much of the game ended up like that! Best thing about the game is ironically just crashing through fences. Weirdly satisfying and fun whether doing it as the demon or seeing it as the survivors.
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Sep 21, 2023 22:09
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Medullah posted:I mean, it still fits the goal of the change. If the killer is hanging out near you you get a chance to escape. I'm sure it would be a nightmare to code "Okay disable it when you've got a survivor you're carrying in the basement but only then". I mean they already do that for when there's another non-downed survivor nearby, acting like it would be remotely difficult to add an extra clause to your conditional statement for "... or isCarryingSurvivor() == TRUE" is silly.
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Sep 21, 2023 22:10
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Vanguard Warden posted:I mean they already do that for when there's another non-downed survivor nearby, acting like it would be remotely difficult to add an extra clause to your conditional statement for "... or isCarryingSurvivor() == TRUE" is silly. This is BHVR we're talking about. Adding that line would probably somehow lead to nerfing Pig again.
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Sep 21, 2023 22:24
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GlyphGryph posted:Take possession of player characters. This is simultaneously unfun as the survivor, because its basically a time-out while you're possessed and you have nothing you can do and it puts all the power in the hands of people who are not you, and it's unfun as the demon because all the other survivors have a big long list of hard counters that make it a waste of time, effort, and energy. It's not even fun for the other players, really. So much of the game ended up like that! This was a funny mechanic because it was supposed to be you turning survivors against their allies but in my experience the most efficient way to do it was to find the ranged build character on the team and make them mag dump into the nearest bush as fast as you possibly can to empty their ammo reserves. E. Wow, there really is no reason to play Skull Merchant now. The beams on active mode aren't that fast and the beams on scouting/stealth mode are *dreadfully* slow. I couldn't even get bots to get properly marked because half the time they would run into the ring and just run straight through because their path naturally evaded the slow turn. The best it seems to be able to do is corralling the people you are chasing and allowing you to push them into zones, and if you do that several times then you'll be able to see where the person you're chasing is. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 21, 2023 22:27
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Poppy Playtime has taught me that what this genre really needs is the ability for more killers to crawl around on/hang out on the ceiling, because it is super fun as killer and super terrifying as survivor. Also the Worms game has taught me that it is also fun to move around under the ground. And Worm Town and In Silence have taught me that handicapping the killer's sensing ability but making them powerful and fast is a great way to make them feel fun on both ends. Texas Chainsaw made me realize having multiple killers working together makes hunting really satisfying and also makes things tense as survivor. Friday the 13th made me realize I enjoy higher survivor counts and an expectation that at least some will get away during a killer "win" and its okay for that to happen. Combine this with a bunch of stuff I've learned playing DbD and Deception and HvZ, and I think... I think putting it all together, I've decided what I want is this for my ideal killer game: A game of three killer against eight survivors (plus a bunch of npcs that can be killed in fairly large numbers). One killer is slow moving but powerful, and relentless, and has the ability to break or move through walls or apply some sort of other environmental pressure - their primary purpose is to put constant pressure on the survivors rather than being a direct threat. When they are around, the survivors know, because they make lots of noise or something. Their sensing range is limited, but they can see well within those confines - the major counterplay is to ensure they are not near you. From the survivor perspective, this is the chasing horror and impending doom. From the killer perspective, this is power and strength and invulnerability. The second killer has the ability to skitter around on ceilings, swim underwater, and move through tight spaces, allowing them to appear unexpectedly and strike at survivors before having to retreat somehow, with the potential to kill survivors but without the ability to engage in direct sustained conflicts. They also have the ability to hinder survivors by pinging them when undetected, letting the survivors know they were there and chose not to attack but weakening them against future attacks. They also have warped perceptive abilities, having to rely mostly on indirect methods of detecting and avoiding being detected by survivors until the time is right to strike. From the survivor perspective, this is the jumpscare and the fear of the unknown. From the killer perspective, this is cleverness and frightening people and putting them on edge. The third role focuses on information gathering and infiltration, with the ability to disguise as a survivor or other npcs scattering the maps, setting traps or using other tools that provide information to their allies as to the survivors progress and positions. When they gain enough information or hit certain triggers, they temporarily become either powerful killers capable of moving quickly and doing high damage before reverting to their normal state or some other alternative - the ability to create decoy trap objects perhaps, or shut down player escape routes. From the survivor perspective, this is the hunter closing in on their prey and social anxiety. From the killer perspective this is the joy of deception, manipulation, and awareness of the moves you are making, the chessmaster setting up all the pieces to make his big dramatic move. The survivors, meanwhile, need a combination of stealth, vigilance, speed and planning to visit multiple locations on the sprawling map. Each survivor is primarily securing a personal escape method (rather than a group escape method) but will also have the opportunity to pursue side objectives that can benefit their teammates escape progress (while providing no benefit to themselves). The tools at their disposal include options for cloaking or defending themselves temporarily from the ambusher, moving quickly from one part of the map to another to avoid the chaser, and hiding from or "testing" other players and npcs to reveal the infiltrator and set back their progress towards rage state while limiting their ability to gather info - but doing these actions uses up limited resources, so getting better at the game becomes about identifying the best situations for doing those things, and doing them without exposing themselves to one of the other killers. You dwindling resources can not be refilled, so managing them while achieving your objective is of paramount importance... and if it looks like you can't escape, there are a few objectives that will at least let you go out with a bang. Anyway, never gonna happen, just dreaming. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 01:19
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CuddleCryptid posted:I'd be interested to know how many people who play a lot of DBD also play other horror games. When you die in other horror media it is a failure state but it's also basically what you are there for. If you get jumpscared in FNAF or a Necromorph gores you in Dead Space then you lost but the game would be less fun if it didn't happen a lot. Once you start thinking of horror media less of something than you experience and more something that has to be consistently won it changes everything about it.
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Sep 22, 2023 01:41
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Yeah, "dying a lot" is not something that happens much in most of the horror games I've enjoyed, because dying basically de-oomphs all the horror elements for a while afterwards, just deflates the whole tension balloon that the game has ideally been building up for a while. But those games don't really have you "winning" either, the biggest reward for not dying is usually getting a breather before the tension starts ratcheting up again.
GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 02:03
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idontpost69 posted:I actually disagree strongly with this. I think a lot of what makes horror fun and unique is the more drawn out pacing of it compared to other genres, by that I mean if you are cautious, plan well, and make good decisions in the heat of the moment you can go an extended period of time without dying(hence the term survival in survival horror). You are being graded less on any individual encounter and more on your play as a whole. When death is frequent and unavoidable that dimension of the genre is negated and it feels a lot more like any action game where you are expected to master every section before you can complete it. There of course should still be instances of heightened danger, you shouldn't be able to just bruteforce the game with an inventory stockpile but the danger should be something you can overcome with the proper mindset. To be clear, I'm not saying that dying a lot is a necessary part of it so much that rapid death is a key part of tension. If you're cautious and work your way through a game then you should die as little as possible, but in most horror games you tend to die a lot at the start which establishes that loving up is a huge problem, and then from then on you are both more skilled and more cautious to make sure you escape those deaths. If an enemy spots you on random chance and instakills you, like in Outlast, it isn't scary because it feels fake. If you die and then you get set back five feet to try again, like in the Amnesia games, it deflates the tension quickly. But if you mess up badly and then get let off with a warning then the same thing happens. For example, Alien Isolation. You start off killing some humans and they fight and die as humans do. Then you come across the xenomorph, so you shoot it - oh gently caress that didn't work. Okay, now we know it's a break in the pattern that is invincible and instantly deadly. You then find the robots and you're super nervous about them because you don't know which rule they fall under. If the Xenomorph didnt just spend an hour stabbing you through the chest then you wouldnt have the same reaction to the robots, because that kind of interaction wouldn't be on the table. The issue comes in for multiplayer games like DbD where it takes a lot to put down a survivor. If you're not able to actually make a survivor fail with some regularity then the whole thing gets deflated because being caught doesn't actually do much. Sure, the third hook is more tense, but by the time that rolls around the game is basically over a lot of times. Once you switch from death being a quick response to messing up to having five or six chances for playing badly you lose a lot of the horror element.
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Sep 22, 2023 03:56
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GlyphGryph posted:Poppy Playtime has taught me that what this genre really needs is the ability for more killers to crawl around on/hang out on the ceiling, because it is super fun as killer and super terrifying as survivor. Also the Worms game has taught me that it is also fun to move around under the ground. And Worm Town and In Silence have taught me that handicapping the killer's sensing ability but making them powerful and fast is a great way to make them feel fun on both ends. Texas Chainsaw made me realize having multiple killers working together makes hunting really satisfying and also makes things tense as survivor. Friday the 13th made me realize I enjoy higher survivor counts and an expectation that at least some will get away during a killer "win" and its okay for that to happen. Combine this with a bunch of stuff I've learned playing DbD and Deception and HvZ, and I think...
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Sep 22, 2023 04:06
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CuddleCryptid posted:Once you switch from death being a quick response to messing up to having five or six chances for playing badly you lose a lot of the horror element.
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Sep 22, 2023 04:25
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There are other options. Instead of making characters so hard to kill, you could let someone play a group of characters one after the other and see how many lives they can still escape with. Its not functionally very different from the current way of doing things, but it would feel very different (and since these games never actually define an actual win/lose state, something I find fascinating, gamefeel is clearly vital) knowing that every death is permanent (for that character) and that they can come quickly while still allowing you to play the match as a different character - plus you could get strategy options for how you line up your character queue! Lots of games also still let you do stuff and influence the world some way after you die if you want to stick around. Plus these games should really have lower wait times anyway. Nessus posted:A lot of this sounds pretty close to Left 4 Dead's multiplayer from the Infected side, doesn't it? A bit, maybe? Left4Dead infected were fun to play. But fundamentally it was a game where the survivors are built around fighting and fighting back - the NPCs in my example are other survivor-analogues, not monsters. Something for monsters to chew on or disguise themselves as as they run around doing their own things. I think that's the major difference - it's a survival game, while L4D is a fighting game.
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Sep 22, 2023 05:30
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The idea of either side being a "power role" is basically unworkable, though. If players are expected to play into another player's power fantasy then that's no longer a PvP game, it's a weird collaborative thing which won't ever fit into the same niche. And when you need a playerbase that's unbalanced in favor of survivors because you need 4 of them to one killer, you're always going to be chasing survivor players. (That's why I think it's so good that TCM has gone with a killer team.) The other fatal mistake Evil Dead was made was allowing in-match levelling which is the same mistake the original Evolve made, because it means that what should be the exciting encounter between the survivors and killer/monster instead becomes a wet fart if the teams aren't both a) at roughly the same level and b) in the middle of the level range, since the game is usually weighted so that at the extreme levels one side has an advantage. And that's generally a less likely case. Does anyone play or consider Identity V or is it just too silly and/or broken?
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Sep 22, 2023 13:28
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Relyssa posted:It seems to only care about your proximity to the hooked survivor and whether other survivors are also close to it. Doesn't seem like it takes anything else into account. Almost like this is a half-assed bandaid they slapped on to "fix" a fundamental game design issue without really considering all the ramifications. Surely this won't be causing any problems down the road.
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Sep 22, 2023 13:40
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Almost like this is a half-assed bandaid they slapped on to "fix" a fundamental game design issue without really considering all the ramifications. Surely this won't be causing any problems down the road. :bhvr:
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Sep 22, 2023 13:49
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Almost like this is a half-assed bandaid they slapped on to "fix" a fundamental game design issue without really considering all the ramifications. Surely this won't be causing any problems down the road. drat, did BHVR poo poo in your cornflakes before teabagging your parents or something too many mornings? BHVR isn't a shining beacon of good game dev or anything but they're also fighting way too many years of spaghetti code that any dev would probably reel in horror from looking at at this point so that's kind of a harsh take. Taking a step in the right direction is still a good thing even if they gently caress it up, trying is a lot more than some devs will do.
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Sep 22, 2023 13:50
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Evil Kit posted:BHVR isn't a shining beacon of good game dev or anything No, they're the polar opposite. They're focusing everything on rushing out content that is constantly broken and poorly thought out*, and keeps breaking the game in new ways.They don't properly test sweeping balance changes, they obviously balance the game by looking at loving spreadsheets, they actively ignore feedback from people they're supposedly soliciting it from, they actively lie to their playerbase, and they do this all under the guise of just being these little guys, you guys wouldn't be mean to us little guys, would you**? (* see for instance The Skull Merchant, who was so well planned that six months later they had to 'rework' her power entirely, because they somehow didn't figure out that the only thing her power was good for was unfun 3 gen camping, and now she's complete poo poo. GG if you paid 10 bucks for her!) (** 1000 plus employees and revenues in the hundreds of millions) They COULD be doing better. They just don't, because it would eat into their profits by distracting them from rushing out a new killer every three months come hell or high water. Evil Kit posted:Taking a step in the right direction is still a good thing even if they gently caress it up, trying is a lot more than some devs will do. The problem is that this "step in the right direction" is going to be another poorly thought out BHVR special that will predictably gently caress over a lot of killer players in interesting and exciting ways, and then if those problems are ever fixed, it's going to take months. So this is only a "step in the right direction", if the only thing you care about is "do survivors occasionally get face camped Y/N". People called out on day one that this is going to completely break multi-level maps, and the response to that was nothing. Hope you don't get sent to Midwich or Gideon! Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 14:04
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I'm not trying to gate keep posting here, or anywhere on the forum but I gotta ask do you even enjoy the game STS? all I've seen you post here is how BHVR has hosed up this time and how poo poo they are and poo poo DbD is. This is certainly a bias in my memories at this point but I'm genuinely struggling to remember a time you've posted anything positive or a time you had fun with DbD? not trying to say you gotta be only positive or praising the game to post, just that it seems like you dislike DbD and BHVR so aggressively it might be a good idea to just cut it out of your life and not pay attention to it anymore. I certainly did two years or three ago when I hard burned out on it originally. Just a suggestion, you're an adult and can take care of yourself. 
Evil Kit fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 14:19
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:and the response to that was nothing 
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Sep 22, 2023 14:32
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I don't think the DBD devs are maliciously pushing out killers to drive sales, I think they just have ideas for killers that don't end up working with the game they have designed. Every killer has to be balanced around every killer and survivor perk as well as just the base design of the game, and somethings that seem cool just don't make it in the end product. They should have realized it in beta sooner, yes, but I would call that them trying to force diversity of play into a game with six hundred factors to consider.
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Sep 22, 2023 15:02
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CuddleCryptid posted:I don't think the DBD devs are maliciously pushing out killers to drive sales, I think they just have ideas for killers that don't end up working with the game they have designed. I don't think they're maliciously pushing out killers either, but I 100% believe that their number one concern is pushing out a new pair of killer and survivor every three months, come what may. Hell, Peanits pretty much said as much in his famous post. And I also believe that the game's overall quality is suffering a great deal because of this, because they don't have time to proper balancing or rebalancing. E: and I don't blame the DEVS themselves for that. Everyone who's worked in software development knows that you do what the higher ups tell you to, and often that isn't what's best for your product or its long term health. Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 15:09
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There's over 30 killers. They can't all be winners.
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Sep 22, 2023 15:17
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As a killer main that hasn't played for months, I am appalled at the anti-face camping changes they are rolling out. Last I checked, there's already an effective way to fight facecamping in the form of doing gens.
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Sep 22, 2023 15:23
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Trickortreat posted:As a killer main that hasn't played for months, I am appalled at the anti-face camping changes they are rolling out. Last I checked, there's already an effective way to fight facecamping in the form of doing gens. Yeah in theory, unless you're solo queue in which you can't trust anyone to do anything while the Killer gets to just watch you die doing absolutely nothing.
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Sep 22, 2023 17:05
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Trickortreat posted:As a killer main that hasn't played for months, I am appalled at the anti-face camping changes they are rolling out. Last I checked, there's already an effective way to fight facecamping in the form of doing gens. it isn't really an "effective" way, it's just how survivors should punish face camping. "Just do gens" though doesn't change the fact that one person is being forced to sit there and not play the game, which sucks! The change is meant to give relief to the one player being put in no fun allowed time out during a particular phase of the game, and actively discourage killers from forming the habit of sitting around face camping. On top of that the one valid use for face camping, guarding your hook when gates are powered, isn't punished by the mechanic which gets disabled when the gates get powered! Whether or not it works and the devs tweak it for multi-floor stuff remains to be seen. Hell, as a mechanic it's also a way for a killer to show mercy to a survivor who got hosed over by their team, now you can go sit on them to let them unhook even in second stage if for some reason no one goes to save them even if you're playing normally.
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Sep 22, 2023 17:12
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Yeah I don't mind being face camped when I'm in a full SWF group and I can just tell them on Discord to keep on gens, but if I'm playing solo and get camped it sucks. You'd think "just do gens" is easy enough but altruism is the #1 focus in solo queue so I'll sit there staring at the killer while 2 team mates crouch 10m away for all hook stages. This is a welcome change and I'm a killer main
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Sep 22, 2023 17:15
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Trickortreat posted:As a killer main that hasn't played for months, I am appalled at the anti-face camping changes they are rolling out. Last I checked, there's already an effective way to fight facecamping in the form of doing gens. That works up to a point. However the meta is to get to one or two gens and then gently caress around for a while to farm blood points, so there often isn't actually a giant pressure to keep people off the gens, so much so that it completely overrides the benefit of taking someone out of the game entirely. It isn't good for your own BP as a killer but it's not like there is *no* value. It creates a weird situation where you don't "need" to be facecamping because you can still rank up with only two kills if the match goes on long enough, but also facecamping while the survivors finish gens isn't that big of a deal because they aren't leaving anyways.
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Sep 22, 2023 17:19
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So far the anti-camping mechanic seems... fine to me?
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Sep 22, 2023 17:31
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Really? We’re gonna with ‘seems fine’ in the DbD thread? Try again.
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Sep 22, 2023 17:36
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The anti-camping mechanic works fine if survivors are playing normally. It sounds like it'll be aweful if people are purposely vulture circling. Which just like face camping itself, something relatively rare but occurs often enough to be extremely annoying. I'd even go so far as to say face camping and survivors swarming the hook occur at near identical amounts. The solution is that mad grit stays on at all times.
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Sep 22, 2023 17:37
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Kwolok posted:So far the anti-camping mechanic seems... fine to me? Disagree. - Starts building the moment a survivor is hooked, even if the killer just immediately runs away the meter will build to ~20% before they get out of the radius. - No indicator for the killer that they are within the radius. - As previously mentioned, if you're above or below the hook's level, you still count as camping. Hope nobody sends you to a map with more than one level! - A survivor being in the anti-camp area only slows the progress down a bit, but doesn't stop it, so survivors can just dick around with impunity near hooks and if the killer doesn't leave, the hooked survivor just gets a free unhook - If you hooked a survivor in the basement and come bring another survivor down to be hooked as well, you will either trigger the unhook or come very close to it - There are many places where gens are within the no camping bubble, meaning the killer either has to abandon those gens or give a survivor a free unhook It's incredibly bad, unless the only thing you care about is "survivors can no longer be face camped". Face camping sucks and anyone who just routinely does it also sucks, and unlike tunneling, it isn't even the "right" way to play the game. I't just something spiteful and mean to do to ruin the game for one survivor. But this sucks as a fix. Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 17:59
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They just keep adding more and more mechanics that encourage slugging. The only really possible conclusion is that it's the intended mode of play.
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Sep 22, 2023 18:01
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Terrible Opinions posted:They just keep adding more and more mechanics that encourage slugging. The only really possible conclusion is that it's the intended mode of play. Controversial opinion: there's a lot of perks that can either make healing in bleedout way faster or even let them pick themselves up. If they need help then another survivor needs to heal them for all of three seconds to get them on their feet with no hooks lost. As such the bleedout timer should be reduced by at least a minute, or at least continue ticking while they are being carried.
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Sep 22, 2023 18:09
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Does a survivor getting of the hook with the new anti camping mechanic still lose one of their hooks? I'm not really sure how it actually works, someone describing the actual mechanic would be appreciated Because honestly I'm kinda fine with survivors getting themselves off the basement hook after I throw a second person on, it means I can hook them again sooner in a place that's fairly hard for them to get away from. Edit: oh, they get endurance for a while too. Hmm. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 18:29
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GlyphGryph posted:Does a survivor getting of the hook with the new anti camping mechanic still lose one of their hooks? I'm not really sure how it actually works, someone describing the actual mechanic would be appreciated It's functionally the same as unhooking yourself now, only guaranteed once the meter is full, and you can do it on the second hook as well. You guys are arguing all the scenarios where it will be a problem but come on, it's a huge net improvement for player experience for 90% of the players. I have a friend that recently started playing and his second match he got face camped and was actually depressed about it. We had to explain to him that it happens, all you can do is move on to the next match.
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Sep 22, 2023 18:34
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drat it's almost like BHVR incorporated this new mechanic and put it out on PTB to get tested and get better feedback and find any flaws that are less obvious! Crazy.
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Sep 22, 2023 18:36
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