(Thread IKs:
weg, Toxic Mental)
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Can we please have the discussion move to the D&D thread since it really doesn't fit the vibes of the gbs thread? bad snipe
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Sep 25, 2023 22:14
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| # ? May 29, 2024 20:38 |
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Majorian posted:Ukraine absolutely devolved into a kleptostate for the next couple of decades; it's the only former Soviet/Warsaw Pact country whose GDP has not recovered since 1991 (yes, even pre-invasion). The reason why Russia is the one that became the most aggressively geopolitically revisionist is pretty simple: it had most of the post-Soviet war machine, and other countries didn't. So what? Which outside force decided to impart the idea on Russia that they should act like they still ran the USSR? 'It had the capability to act like a fading Great Power which is why it did' doesn't exactly bolster the position that if it weren't for the vile machinations of the West the Russia would not be in the state it was in today. If you are arguing that Russia is inherently revanchist and given any ability they will act on it then I am curious as to what possible steps you think would even be possible to bring such a delusional supremacist state into a Western co-operative. Edit: Majorian posted:No country is the way it is just because "that's the way they are." This is literally what you are saying though with regards to Russia.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:15
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Majorian posted:The problem with your argument is that Russia never "chose" to squander its resources on kleptocrats. There was never any vote to implement shock therapy and sell off government-owned enterprises to oligarchs; that was a necessary precondition for them to receive IMF loans. The government that oversaw this massive upward redistribution of wealth was supported to the hilt by the U.S. and its allies, so it's not like there was ever any chance for those policies to change until it all went to poo poo in 1998. They squandered their resources starting around 2014, or possibly after Putin got "reelected" in 2012! Not the 90s! I've said it a million times, I'm talking about the time after their economy got sorted out, like ten years later. You again go back to the 90s. Do you see why I say you're obsessed? Russia in the 90s had limited room for decisions (still deciding to use very limited resources on loving with Georgia, Moldova and Chechnya), good loving thing that was 30 years ago and far less irrelevant to the invasion that happened last year than tons of other things! Lots of countries had a poo poo time in the 90s, Russia uniquely got out of it in a really good position, then decided to squander it on war and assassinations and palaces for kleptocrats. Like I don't know if you have issues with reading comprehension or what, but I feel like I've been super clear. quote:If we're talking narrowly about whether or not Russia squandered its resources by invading Ukraine in 2022, sure, I absolutely agree. I'm talking about the initial invasion as well, and the various Skripal adventures and every other lovely thing they've done since 2012ish. Decisions, deliberate decisions, which squandered economic potential, that were made to look big and strong and to project power and other imperial crap. Exactly what I said, from the start. Which you, just a short time ago, said they didn't make at all. Also, I don't even think deliberately is my word, so I'm wondering if you're actually arguing with someone else.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:16
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If you'll watch respected documentary film wag the dog I think you'll find that Boris Johnson must have ordered Russia to start the Ukraine war to distract from having COVID parties. Anyone who disagrees is an uncultured moron.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:17
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“We had a huge military, so we absolutely had to brutally subjugate several of our neighbors, our hands were tied.” Is pretty loving wild.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:18
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HKR posted:Can we please have the discussion move to the D&D thread since it really doesn't fit the vibes of the gbs thread? It's the general bullshit thread, it shouldn't have a strict mandate like that 
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Sep 25, 2023 22:18
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Majorian posted:The problem with your argument is that Russia never "chose" to squander its resources on kleptocrats. There was never any vote to implement shock therapy and sell off government-owned enterprises to oligarchs; that was a necessary precondition for them to receive IMF loans. The government that oversaw this massive upward redistribution of wealth was supported to the hilt by the U.S. and its allies, so it's not like there was ever any chance for those policies to change until it all went to poo poo in 1998. you keep trying to disguise it but slipping into this post where it all comes back to the usual tankie "nobody but the united states has agency" you're literally going "oh man literally nobody in russia had any agency whatsoever" and that literally nothing that russia or russians did was at all relevant. like not even "hmm why does this country need a huge amount of economic rescue" or "hmm why is it that there are kleptocrats everywhere" or even "could the kleptocrats not have stolen the money" or "could the russians have tried to avoid letting the kleptocrats steal all the money" in your view of the world there is literally nothing else that played a role other than the only mover in the world, the united states, making decisions.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:19
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Changing the subject: did you know that Russia is a piece of poo poo?quote:War crimes dossier to accuse Russia of deliberately causing starvation in Ukraine
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Sep 25, 2023 22:20
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HKR posted:Can we please have the discussion move to the D&D thread since it really doesn't fit the vibes of the gbs thread?
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Sep 25, 2023 22:21
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Majorian posted:I mean, there was a reason why the U.S. and its allies were so supportive of the Yeltsin government. Several reasons, including the hardline nationalists and militarists champing at the bit for Cold War 2 that became the face of his opposition. Even from the perspective that Yeltsin was poo poo it's not surprising western powers backed him over "also poo poo but explicitly anti-Western."
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Sep 25, 2023 22:21
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I agree, let's have Majoran et. all take it to the DnD thread instead and punish their mods if you want to continue this conversation. Wishing you all safe travels! Bring in the horse cum Toxic Mental fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 22:22
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William Bear posted:Changing the subject: did you know that Russia is a piece of poo poo? Oh surely these are just failed agricultural policies and not deliberate.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:22
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Edit: removed
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Sep 25, 2023 22:22
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Majorian posted:I don't really buy into essentialist arguments about countries or peoples. No country is the way it is just because "that's the way they are." There was an opportunity in the 90s to further integrate Russia into the European community, and regrettably, that opportunity was squandered. Im not saying that. It is not essentialist argument to see how Russia has acted through most of its history. Of course many other empires did similar things, but most of those have more or less renounced that kind of ideology and politics. In many ways Russia has not and continues to behave like it always has.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:24
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It seems to me that some of y'all are reading this as IMF = benevolent; Putin = bad Yes, Putin = bad but also IMF = bad and the whole thing goes hand in hand. I don't know that Putin and his cronies could have robbed the country so thoroughly without the IMF. It's a particularly good vessel for providing the efficient means of kleptocracy. Here's a small primer from a book about debt that I greatly enjoyed reading: Debt: The First 5000 Years posted:...International Monetary Fund basically acted as the world's debt enforcers-"You might say, the high-finance equivalent of the guys who come to break your legs." I launched into historical background, explaining how, during the '7os oil crisis, OPEC coun tries ended up pouring so much of their newfound riches into Western banks that the banks couldn't figure out where to invest the money; how Citibank and Chase therefore began sending agents around the world trying to convince Third World dictators and politicians to take out loans (at the time, this was called "go-go banking"); how they started out at extremely low rates of interest that almost immediately skyrocketed to 20 percent or so due to tight U.S. money policies in the early '8os; how, during the '8os and '9os, this led to the Third World debt crisis; how the IMF then stepped in to insist that, in order to obtain refinancing, poor countries would be obliged to abandon price supports on basic foodstuffs, or even policies of keeping strategic food reserves, and abandon free health care and free education; how all of this had led to the collapse of all the most basic supports for some of the poorest and most vulnerable people on earth. I spoke of poverty, of the looting of public resources, the collapse of societies, endemic violence, malnutrition, hopelessness, and broken lives... Edit: ehhh I came in too late, no need to respond to me. Slava Ukraini & Putin is a piece of poo poo. lushka16 fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 22:25
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William Bear posted:Changing the subject: did you know that Russia is a piece of poo poo? Russia causing starvation in Ukraine? I don't think anything like that would ever happen. And even if it hypothetically did, have you considered how the IMF forced Russia to do it?
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Sep 25, 2023 22:25
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e: \/\/\/that's fair. I appreciate your forbearance in letting me make my case here. I didn't intend for this discussion to go on as long as it did, and I'll leave it there as far as this thread is concerned. \/\/\/
Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 22:25
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Toxic Mental posted:I agree, let's have Majoran et. all take it to the DnD thread instead and punish their mods if you want to continue this conversation. Wishing you all safe travels! Toxic Mental posted:Bring in the horse cum Toxic Mental posted:Bring in the horse cum Toxic Mental posted:Bring in the horse cum
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Sep 25, 2023 22:27
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That's to the beat of "pump up the volume" of course
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Sep 25, 2023 22:29
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Toxic Mental posted:That's to the beat of "pump up the volume" of course I read it more like a ska band Bringitin, Bringitin, Bringitin Let's begin gently caress Putin
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Sep 25, 2023 22:30
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If I'm not mistaken, this is Mr. Russia.  He never "chose" to squander his resources on kleptocrats.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:33
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That's the guy they send to your house if you're trans
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Sep 25, 2023 22:33
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The hague tryna get me for these glutes
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Sep 25, 2023 22:36
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In case anyone is wondering what this article is about : Yeltsin was hiring foreign campaign advisors for the 96 election and had reached out to the Clinton administration to recommend some qualified Americans ones. He received some references and hired some of them. According to Russian sources they played a pretty minor role in the campaign and apparently never even met with Yeltsin. You can find the full article online very easily. Tankies never post the article together with the the cover though, for obvious reasons.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:38
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Toxic Mental posted:That's the guy they send to your house if you're trans I'm glad at least some countries have dedicated staff devoted to providing therapy, support and information about how to access HRT.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:39
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poor waif posted:I'm glad at least some countries have dedicated staff devoted to providing therapy, support and information about how to access HRT. it's a little weird that he tows it there on a big metal sled he's chained himself to. but i can't argue with results
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Sep 25, 2023 22:42
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Tigey posted:Russia causing starvation in Ukraine? I don't think anything like that would ever happen. Ukraine has been using Western munitions to kill sparrows in the Donbass in preparation for their great leap forward.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:44
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pro starcraft loser posted:I read it more like a ska band Prig it up Prig it up Prig it uuuuuup
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Sep 25, 2023 22:47
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Sep 25, 2023 22:49
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poor waif posted:I'm glad at least some countries have dedicated staff devoted to providing therapy, support and information about how to access HRT. Wait which ones in particular
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Sep 25, 2023 22:52
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It's a decent discussion, albeit academic, divining the origins of Russia's black heart and Western complicity for poo poo decisions. It's just too bad it all led to mass murder and genocide. Seems it might be best to vigorously repel them from Ukraine's borders now, and quickly, and give better thought afterwards on how to rehabilitate an insane murderously criminal state.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:53
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poo poo. Senate Dems were seeking $25 billion. https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1706424227320979904?s=20
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Sep 25, 2023 23:03
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As a serious question here, somewhat related to the earlier topic that seems to be over now, I do wonder how much it even matters to discuss the economics or politics of why Russia decided to do a thing. No matter if it is an invasion of a neighbouring state or nerve gassing a dissident abroad really. As the Russian state's big moves are so clearly decided by Putin himself (and to a certain extent the smaller mob bosses he allows to rule underneath him, that are the de facto government there). Russia is not acting as a "rational political actor", but according to the will and whims of a paranoid old man who is used to bullying not only individuals but entire states. We can attempt to backtrack the reasons for why they decide to do something, but in the end it is just an attempt to add reason that just isn't there to the madness now unfolding before us. Putin wanted to be the tzar, how he got there isn't really relevant. Nobody elses opinions matter, especially not other Russians, or we wouldn't be discussing this here and now. Set fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Sep 26, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 23:05
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Shinjobi posted:Boy oh boy this thread sucks today 
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Sep 25, 2023 23:07
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William Bear posted:poo poo. Senate Dems were seeking $25 billion. gently caress the GOP Actual traitors The House lunatics will never go for this though, not unless they absolve Trump of all charges forever
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Sep 25, 2023 23:09
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William Bear posted:poo poo. Senate Dems were seeking $25 billion. we won't even get their because the chuds will revolt and shoot it down.
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Sep 25, 2023 23:15
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bad_fmr posted:Im not saying that. It is not essentialist argument to see how Russia has acted through most of its history. Of course many other empires did similar things, but most of those have more or less renounced that kind of ideology and politics. In many ways Russia has not and continues to behave like it always has. If Russia is just inherently warlike, expansionary, and genocidal, then what are we supposed to do about it? How is the international order supposed to deal with this rabid dog of a country?
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Sep 25, 2023 23:16
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TulliusCicero posted:gently caress the GOP I always agree with saying gently caress the GOP, this is also an important point. https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1706427652314177735?t=r4UzSeROE0XtkuDvhzslRg&s=19 Only temporarily until Nov when the next major Ukraine support bill is supposed to be presented.
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Sep 25, 2023 23:20
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Off topic, we might have different opinions on this war etc but I thought you did a decent job IKing and props for keeping the nazi poo poo in check. A pity you aren't the thread IK any more. On topic, some of the stuff you said is good. This thread does get a bit tunnel vision at times (sorry thread) on how the Russian government is poo poo and the reasons for the invasion (IMO) were just bull poo poo smoke screens i.e. denazification etc Tai fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 23:22
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| # ? May 29, 2024 20:38 |
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Pine Cone Jones posted:Only temporarily until Nov when the next major Ukraine support bill is supposed to be presented. It doesn't matter. The bipartisan consensus around funding Ukraine is over. This will be cited as precedent to avoid future aid.
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Sep 25, 2023 23:22
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