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daslog posted:It's worth asking if they would sell it to you, but I would think most landlords would want to get top dollar for their unit and the best way to do that is to list it with an agent. There's a lot of assumptions going into that. The renter in the property benefits by not having to pay moving costs and having unusual knowledge of the property. The seller benefits by not paying realtor commissions, not dealing with removing a tenant or marketing them as compliant, and can probably also avoids the whole inspection rigmarole. Assuming there's a mutual consensus on property value on a fairly typical residential property, it probably saves money on both sides.
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Sep 27, 2023 03:13
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Leviathan Song posted:There's a lot of assumptions going into that. The renter in the property benefits by not having to pay moving costs and having unusual knowledge of the property. The seller benefits by not paying realtor commissions, not dealing with removing a tenant or marketing them as compliant, and can probably also avoids the whole inspection rigmarole. Assuming there's a mutual consensus on property value on a fairly typical residential property, it probably saves money on both sides. Not to get into the details, but a cousin bought their rental. They were there for like 10 years, owner lived next door, then moved/sold the house, then told my cousin they were selling the rental a couple of years later, but cousin gets first dibs. Since they lived next to each other, they were friends by that point. Did all the "normal" home buying steps like getting inspections at the like, but got a house they liked without having to move all their stuff.
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Sep 27, 2023 03:22
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Ham Equity posted:I don't see it as tremendously different from buying a house with a spouse, which also frequently goes to poo poo on people. It really doesn't matter what you think. It matters what the courts think. Courts are good at dealing with marriages. They don't deal with friends having a falling out unless you have legal documents saying what happens (which I Believe you do). It is why I have legal documents defining what happens if we split since we are married.
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Sep 27, 2023 04:42
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Ham & co definitely thought things through and got the legal documents arranged, and he and one of the roommates go back almost longer than I've been alive (this is me making fun of him for being old). Buying a house with friends is nuts as a baseline, but if there's a group where it basically makes sense, as a bystander friend I'd say this one qualifies, for various reasons.
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Sep 27, 2023 05:18
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Ditocoaf posted:Ham & co definitely thought things through and got the legal documents arranged, and he and one of the roommates go back almost longer than I've been alive (this is me making fun of him for being old). Buying a house with friends is nuts as a baseline, but if there's a group where it basically makes sense, as a bystander friend I'd say this one qualifies, for various reasons. Are they not a polycule solely because HE is the third wheel to the other two? You can tell us, this is a safe space. I have a question for you, Ham. How pissed were you to pay that lawyer for not knowing about the tenant law that said you had to return some of that money?
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Sep 27, 2023 06:56
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BonerGhost posted:Are they not a polycule solely because HE is the third wheel to the other two? You can tell us, this is a safe space. Muir posted:Without an order from DoR to Ham saying to withhold funds, Ham doesn’t have grounds to withhold it just because maybe DoR wants it. If the money is contractually owed to the sellers, then Ham has to send it there. DoR can go after the sellers some more if they think they have some more money. But there’s no reason to blame Ham for not acting as some sort of tax withholding vigilante. Tax-Withholding Vigilantes is my new band name.
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Sep 27, 2023 07:10
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Leviathan Song posted:There's a lot of assumptions going into that. The renter in the property benefits by not having to pay moving costs and having unusual knowledge of the property. The seller benefits by not paying realtor commissions, not dealing with removing a tenant or marketing them as compliant, and can probably also avoids the whole inspection rigmarole. Assuming there's a mutual consensus on property value on a fairly typical residential property, it probably saves money on both sides. Many property management companies take a significant commission if the tenant they placed buys the property from the owner and the property management company was involved with the transaction in absolutely any way (even passing on a "hey you want to sell me this house?" letter would count), so the owner might not save as much money there as you'd think.
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Sep 27, 2023 09:46
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Ham Equity posted:I've talked about this in this thread before. But I'm happy to answer questions. We've combined finances in a lot of ways (we buy food and stuff for the house together, pay for the car insurance together), but I'm not romantically involved with either of the other people. I don't see it as tremendously different from buying a house with a spouse, which also frequently goes to poo poo on people. I'm legit kinda jealous. I love room mates and am sad no one does it after a certain age.
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Sep 27, 2023 14:53
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Epitope posted:I'm legit kinda jealous. I love room mates and am sad no one does it after a certain age. Have you ever considered living in San Francisco?
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Sep 27, 2023 15:33
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daslog posted:It's worth asking if they would sell it to you, but I would think most landlords would want to get top dollar for their unit and the best way to do that is to list it with an agent. I own a rental unit in a neighborhood rife with redevelopment. A constant stream of randos (try to) contact me about buying it. They get summarily ignored. Particularly persistent ones get blocked. When the time comes to sell, I may offer it to the tenants, but otherwise I will list on the MLS because I want the price discovery of open market action.
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Sep 27, 2023 15:42
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Ham Equity posted:Can't rule it out. We didn't want to be sued by them, though, and we weren't in love with the idea of people angry with us knowing where we live. I can't imagine my entirely financial situation being the end of a big group dinner where you pass the receipt around and everyone tries to add up what they had and split it across 10 credit cards.
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Sep 27, 2023 15:44
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Epitope posted:I'm legit kinda jealous. I love room mates and am sad no one does it after a certain age. The last year is the first time I've lived without a roommate for a significant length of time, and I find that I am a way better person when I'm living with people: I eat better, I clean more (I absolutely will not leave a mess in a common area if I'm living with people, but will totally do it if I'm by myself), once we get the squat rack and bench installed, we're going to start working out together (which I am also waaaayyy better about with another person). I've also been taking point on a lot of the home improvement stuff so far; I don't know a lot about it, but I seem to have at least a little aptitude for it. Having extra people to help with that stuff is great (when we changed the locks, it took almost no time at all for four doors). Since I have zero interest in ever having kids, and the people in living with have even less, it seems like a decent way to save a bunch of money and effort. And maybe I'll fall into a relationship and regret it or something, but my longest-term relationship at this point was in high school and I'm 40, so it seems pretty low-percentage. I've got plenty of friends who like to travel in the off season (it turns out there are a decent amount of confirmed bachelors in tech towns, who knew), so that's where a decent amount of my disposable income goes. I also recognize that these conditions wouldn't work for the vast majority of people, which is also fine; they don't need to work for everyone, just for me and my housemates. None of us care a ton about stuff; we just combined board game collections, for instance (insert Clickhole article here). We have a shared checking account for the mortgage and any large expenses we need to pay out, and we keep a spreadsheet of other expenses (hardware store runs, utilities, attorneys) that is split evenly, but if one of us picks up dinner or whatever we just let it come out in the wash and aren't going to worry about $50 here or there figuring it's gonna come close enough to even in the long-term anyhow. Our parents are all taken care of financially, we all have life insurance through work and we're all each other's beneficiaries, so if anything happens to one of us, the other two will at least have some runway on covering the mortgage while they figure out what to do about the house. The house is covered by a real property agreement with right of survivorship, so it doesn't go into an estate if anyone dies, it just goes straight to the other owners; pro-tip for anyone else doing this: your title company and lender are going to assume you're doing joint tenancy in common, make sure you tell them, and read your goddamn documents (I caught this before signing them, thankfully). We're all on the same page about pets, kids, the yard, finances, etc. We're open books on that stuff, we have each other's social security numbers and drivers license numbers, we got credit reports that we showed each other, they know where my emergency cash and spare credit cards are if they need it, etc. They're in their mid-30s, so we're all at a point in life where we're relatively settled, I absolutely would not do this if I or they were in our twenties, too much poo poo can change. We all have decent-paying careers with good benefits that are about as secure as a job can be in this era (two of us work in the public sector, the third for an FI with a reputation for being a good employer). If you can't talk to someone about some uncomfortable, normally-private poo poo like death and finances, you definitely shouldn't be buying a house with them.
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Sep 27, 2023 15:56
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Super-NintendoUser posted:I can't imagine my entirely financial situation being the end of a big group dinner where you pass the receipt around and everyone tries to add up what they had and split it across 10 credit cards. We track equity meticulously (PITI), we split expenses evenly (we have a spreadsheet, it's not difficult), and we don't sweat the small stuff.
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Sep 27, 2023 15:58
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Epitope posted:I'm legit kinda jealous. I love room mates and am sad no one does it after a certain age. How can I be afflicted with the same thing you have to make me the opposite of antisocial?
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Sep 27, 2023 16:00
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Ham Equity posted:We track equity meticulously (PITI), we split expenses evenly (we have a spreadsheet, it's not difficult), and we don't sweat the small stuff. This is all fascinating and seems well thought out. How do you plan / save jointly for house emergencies or planned for upgrades?
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Sep 27, 2023 16:16
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Now you're just making us all jealous.
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Sep 27, 2023 16:17
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Oh, loving insurance. Insurance is expensive as gently caress. Splitting it three ways makes it so much loving cheaper. The cost to cover extra people on the same policy is really loving close to zero; our homeowners is pretty much the same as it would be if it were just one of us, however not all insurance companies will write a policy for three unrelated people. Talk to your agent, first. The company we wound up with--State Farm--had no problem doing a homeowners and auto policy for three unrelated people, but I have my own individual umbrella policy because they would only do that for two (it's an extra $143 a year, having umbrella policies was a thing I required and when I explained it to them my housemates thought it was a good idea, too). We share one car, my housemate previously paid $1130 a year for car insurance; to add both me and my other housemate to that added another $66 a year, and now we split that insurance three ways; we share the car, it is absolutely my car-owning housemate's car, but the other two of us can use it as needed as long as she isn't using it. I get use of a full-rear end car for $400 a year, and my roommate effectively had her auto insurance cut by 60%.
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Sep 27, 2023 16:26
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Spikes32 posted:This is all fascinating and seems well thought out. How do you plan / save jointly for house emergencies or planned for upgrades? We've talked about what upgrades we want to do and we're all okay splitting three ways for the ones we've thought of (redoing the bathroom, having a friend who is a professional landscaper come in and do up the yard, maaaaaayyyybeee converting our shed into an ADU, installing solar etc.). If we find an upgrade that one or two of us want that the other(s) don't, we'll talk about whether or not to do it and how to pay for it; if it's such a big deal to both sides that no one is willing to live with/without it and/or split/not split paying for it, then we'll sell the house and split the proceeds. Maintenance is split three ways down the middle, with some flexibility if necessary. We're all pretty good at budgeting, but if one of us is short at some point, we log it on the spreadsheet and get paid back eventually, with the possibility that that "eventually" might be "when we sell the house." The arrangement requires a certain amount of financial flexibility that, again, probably wouldn't work for most people. At the moment we've got about $12k in the bank to cover maintenance, which doesn't feel too bad given that we just bought a house. I recognize that can go very fast. As with marriage, communication and willingness to compromise are key, but since we're talking about our home, we have to be largely on the same page to begin with, because compromises in your living space can rapidly become untenable. Ham Equity fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Sep 27, 2023 |
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Sep 27, 2023 16:45
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The teeth really come out come Funko split time. But really that seems pretty cool.
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Sep 27, 2023 16:49
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Betray them Ham. Take everything. Do it before they do it to you.
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Sep 27, 2023 16:58
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Lockback posted:Betray them Ham. Take everything. Do it before they do it to you. See how long you can each keep the scam going. Share everything equally to build up the total value. Make each other feel great about living together so they don't betray you before that wealth is built up. Eventually, one of you will have everything in the end.
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Sep 27, 2023 17:17
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Kind Hearts and Coronets is a good primer on how to deal with troublesome heirs
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Sep 27, 2023 17:23
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George H.W. oval office posted:Kind Hearts and Coronets is a good primer on how to deal with troublesome heirs The tricky bit is making them get into the balloon.
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Sep 27, 2023 17:31
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Uthor posted:See how long you can each keep the scam going. Share everything equally to build up the total value. Make each other feel great about living together so they don't betray you before that wealth is built up. Eventually, one of you will have everything in the end. Yeah, fundamentally, I don't really see the difference between "joint tenancy with right of survivorship" and a tontine, but my attorney assures me that legally, there is one. Either one of us is ending up with the house, or we sell it and split the proceeds. When I made a joke about flipping the house in a couple of years, both of my housemates threatened to kill me, though, so I think the plan is to stick it out for awhile (they were more stressed by the house buying process than I was, and at this point, never want to do it again).
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Sep 27, 2023 17:37
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Are tontines illegal? drat.
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Sep 27, 2023 17:40
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Lol yeah I was about to say, that's basically a tontine, amazing
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Sep 27, 2023 19:05
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The whole situations seems to get worse every time more is disclosed. Amazing. So this thing that's been illegal to do everywhere for literal decades because it encourages such bad behavior and perverse incentives? Yeah, we hired a lawyer to get around those pesky regulations.
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Sep 27, 2023 19:07
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 if you think about it, isn't marriage just another tontine
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Sep 27, 2023 19:17
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Are tontines illegal? drat. It's not straightforward. Either of "yes, but..." or "no, but..." could apply. But yeah. Perhaps surprisingly, especially if your exposure is mystery novels, tontines aren't illegal because they incentivize murder, instead because of a long history of fraud and mismanagement.
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Sep 27, 2023 19:18
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Motronic posted:The whole situations seems to get worse every time more is disclosed. Amazing. Tontines aren't illegal, in the US or in Europe, and joint tenancy with right of survivorship is a classic way to hold title, it's not some weird workaround that Ham's lawyer just cooked up. The slayer rule would stop the incentive to kill your co-owner anyway.
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Sep 27, 2023 19:24
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Muir posted:Tontines aren't illegal, in the US or in Europe, and joint tenancy with right of survivorship is a classic way to hold title, it's not some weird workaround that Ham's lawyer just cooked up. The slayer rule would stop the incentive to kill your co-owner anyway. JT with survivorship is "classically" how one passes the family house down to your kid while bypassing probate. Not whatever is going on there.
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Sep 27, 2023 19:52
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Tunicate posted:
quote:Polycule Hippy stuff is so polarizing. Choosing family sounds good to me, if that's what they're into. Buying from shifty characters maybe not so much
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Sep 27, 2023 20:10
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Yeah, I could see the joint tenancy with right of survivorship weirding some people out. None of us are going to have children, none of us love the idea of inheritance in general, and--most importantly--none of us want to partially own a house with the family of the others. Oh, and according to the real property agreement, our interest in the house is not transferable without the permission of both of the other two housemates, so if anyone wants out, they're either getting bought out by one or more of the other two people, or the house goes on the market and we split the proceeds. This limits what we can do with the property, but also makes the property more livable in the long-term, in that we aren't going to end up with our housemate-in-laws as co-occupants. It is a lot like marriage, though, as far as our estates go, where the likely largest thing that we own is going to our housemates if we die.
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Sep 27, 2023 20:31
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Jenkl posted:It's not straightforward. Either of "yes, but..." or "no, but..." could apply. But yeah.
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Sep 27, 2023 20:43
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I am enjoying the thought of the TINK Tontine
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Sep 27, 2023 20:53
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What HAM is doing would be totally normal if they were siblings or one was a parent or something. In a lot of ways it makes more sense with people you know and choose vs people you happened to be related to. Although if you need a contract killer may I suggest you keep the contact info of your sellers, they seem to have their poo poo together on that end.
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Sep 27, 2023 21:10
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Yeah yeah, but when are y’all gonna gently caress?
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Sep 27, 2023 21:22
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My regular learning from this thread has continued with my new knowledge of the word tontine
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Sep 27, 2023 21:30
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smdh if you're not learning about tontines from The Simpsons
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Sep 27, 2023 21:42
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Inner Light posted:My regular learning from this thread has continued with my new knowledge of the word tontine Me too. A tontine annuity seems like a pretty good way to make sure that as you get older (and need more health care $$$) your income stream actually increases. But probably a better discussion for the long term investment thread (to poo poo on).
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Sep 27, 2023 21:46
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