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bit difficult to call em maps when they dont have any pictoral content
bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Sep 26, 2023 |
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Sep 26, 2023 16:50
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Cessna posted:No, in 1963 there were plenty of radio navigation aids available. True enough. Land based radio stations are just basically a giant lighthouse or landmark - you can just "see" them over the horizon. It's truly wild out in the middle of the ocean especially with limited or no modern connectivity. You're really just alone.
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Sep 26, 2023 16:51
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What evidence do we have for more local level stuff? Maps that do show coastlines are decently accurate and I can't imagine it's that hard to have a map that consists of 2 ports and a line showing the coast between them, and harbors along the way.
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Sep 26, 2023 16:58
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 There a Roman itinerary engraved on a cup I would call that a map. It’s not too dissimilar from a subway map for example Although I guess technically maps should be on sheet of parchment or a napkin given the root of the word
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Sep 26, 2023 17:19
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WoodrowSkillson posted:What evidence do we have for more local level stuff? Maps that do show coastlines are decently accurate and I can't imagine it's that hard to have a map that consists of 2 ports and a line showing the coast between them, and harbors along the way. Basically none. There are a couple references to nautical charts existing, though without having one it's hard to say exactly what the Romans considered a nautical chart. There are only two pre-medieval Roman maps that I know of, the Tabula Peutingeria (the one we have is a medieval copy of the original, as usual) and the Forma Urbis Romae. Both of which were decorations, not for practical use.
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Sep 26, 2023 17:19
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There were mile markers (milestones) on every Roman road that served as maps for the road system Here is one in the far west of Iberia 
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Sep 26, 2023 17:21
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Grand Fromage posted:Basically none. There are a couple references to nautical charts existing, though without having one it's hard to say exactly what the Romans considered a nautical chart. There are only two pre-medieval Roman maps that I know of, the Tabula Peutingeria (the one we have is a medieval copy of the original, as usual) and the Forma Urbis Romae. Both of which were decorations, not for practical use. Right, but given their accuracy inasmuch has the correct major land formations like the shape of italy and corsica/sardinia, they had to be pulling from other sources to create those.
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Sep 26, 2023 17:26
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Right, but given their accuracy inasmuch has the correct major land formations like the shape of italy and corsica/sardinia, they had to be pulling from other sources to create those. Yeah. Probably a lot of information came from peripluses? Periplusii? Guides for sailors that listed locations, directions, travel distances. There were lots and lots of those, we have a few. You could take that information and render it into a visual form if you wanted to. Which is more or less what the medieval people did with Ptolemy's Geography to make the map I posted. There were also land versions called itineraria that listed locations and distances on road routes. That was what people traveled with instead of maps.
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Sep 26, 2023 17:28
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Correct , the relationship between places plus the distances between them is sufficient to be a map imho
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Sep 26, 2023 17:29
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Maps with wildly distorted geography, intended to tell you how to get where you want to go at the expense of being a literal depiction, are still quite common. That's every subway map, for instance
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Sep 26, 2023 17:30
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Gaius trying to get to Pompeii to see a show using the directions he copied into his wax tablet from the Lonelius Planetius at the forum library.
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Sep 26, 2023 17:33
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euphronius posted:
Iirc english is a bit unusual, and most romance languages derive map from card, dunno how that works wirh latin
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Sep 26, 2023 17:35
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Map comes from mappa which means sheet or napkin . Probably Semitic in origins Synonymous with charta
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Sep 26, 2023 17:39
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Jamwad Hilder posted:Cutting through country was a good way to get lost in foreign territory. Or even familiar territory. Suetonius recorded that Caesar got lost trying to find the Rubicon, spent all night wandering around trying to find it, and ended up needing a guide to get him there, and this is a relative big river like 150 miles from Rome. Me in any open world video game Tulip posted:Oh so this is interesting. Am I right in thinking that the Parthians/Sasanians also had a hand in keeping them apart? I seem to remember reading somewhere that they got wind that Rome and China were making diplomatic overtures toward each other and basically said "Holy poo poo, we can NOT let these two become friends"
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Sep 26, 2023 19:37
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The Parthians tended to try to dissuade Chinese envoys from going further than the Persian Gulf, yes. Contemporary Chinese envoys themselves noted that the Parthians blocked the route to them because they wanted to preserve their position for controlling the silk trade, and because the Parthians and Romans were rivals who were frequently hostile toward one another. It also just flat out took a long time to get there.
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Sep 26, 2023 19:59
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Jamwad Hilder posted:Or even familiar territory. Suetonius recorded that Caesar got lost trying to find the Rubicon, spent all night wandering around trying to find it, and ended up needing a guide to get him there, and this is a relative big river like 150 miles from Rome. Yeah it's incredibly easy to get lost at night even in familiar territory if you aren't on a road. You can only get kinda lost if you follow a road because roads tend to go somewhere. This is one of the reasons that the Roman solution to problems was, generally speaking, to build a road at it.
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Sep 26, 2023 20:20
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euphronius posted:Correct , the relationship between places plus the distances between them is sufficient to be a map imho IDK about you but I think if I tried to tell somebody that my travel itinerary was a map, that person would, reasonably, think I was not being serious. Owl at Home posted:Me in any open world video game Yep! Hilder hit the specific thing we know from history, here's the specific quote from the Hou Hanshu as presented in wikipedia: Hou Hanshu posted:"In the ninth Yongyuan year [97 CE], during the reign of the Emperor He, Protector General Ban Chao sent Gan Ying to Da Qin (大秦) [the Roman Empire]. He reached Tiaozhi (条支) (Characene) and Sibin (斯宾) (Susiana?)[3] next to a large sea. He wanted to cross it, but the sailors of the western frontier of Anxi (安息) [Parthia] said to him: Tiaozhi here is like southern Mesopotamia btw. The main thing I wanted to add to this is that its not just the Persian empires who would be loving about with this. They were definitely the most powerful of the independent countries between China and Rome, but there were others and each of them had an interest in preventing Rome and China from having direct context. Not as some part of like, grand political strategy, but because direct contact would interfere with their ability to collect merchant taxes if merchants, well, didn't go through them.
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Sep 26, 2023 23:47
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Tulip posted:IDK about you but I think if I tried to tell somebody that my travel itinerary was a map, that person would, reasonably, think I was not being serious. If you want to get technical about it, that kinda stuff is considered a map all the time, though I would also accept it being a graph.
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Sep 26, 2023 23:57
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Tulip posted:The main thing I wanted to add to this is that its not just the Persian empires who would be loving about with this. They were definitely the most powerful of the independent countries between China and Rome, but there were others and each of them had an interest in preventing Rome and China from having direct context. Not as some part of like, grand political strategy, but because direct contact would interfere with their ability to collect merchant taxes if merchants, well, didn't go through them. On the other side of Han China too, Gojoseon was said to have prevented groups further down the Korean peninsula from directly contacting Han, trying to guard its role as middleman. Coulda been overstated — Han used it as pretext to launch an invasion — but it’s undeniable that trade with China was like, really important.
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Sep 27, 2023 00:15
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Owl at Home posted:Am I right in thinking that the Parthians/Sasanians also had a hand in keeping them apart? I seem to remember reading somewhere that they got wind that Rome and China were making diplomatic overtures toward each other and basically said "Holy poo poo, we can NOT let these two become friends" yes this is why the one official chinese diplomat who actually set foot in the roman empire had to do it by going thru the red sea
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Sep 27, 2023 00:18
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Man, I hope some day we find a journal of a merchant who made it all the way from one empire to the other and learned enough of the language or had an interpreter and actually commented on it.
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Sep 27, 2023 00:51
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Thinking about Jimmy Yang's line in Silicon Valley, "This is my grandmother's recipe. She gave me before she died, in a horrible way."
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Sep 27, 2023 01:03
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Man, I hope some day we find a journal of a merchant who made it all the way from one empire to the other and learned enough of the language or had an interpreter and actually commented on it. There were those monks who smuggled silk worms back to Rome
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Sep 27, 2023 06:58
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There were enough missionaries from the empire that Nestorian Christianity established itself in China by the 600s or so. Never a lot of adherents, but still was a thing.
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Sep 27, 2023 07:17
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Grand Fromage posted:There were enough missionaries from the empire that Nestorian Christianity established itself in China by the 600s or so. Never a lot of adherents, but still was a thing. I imagine those missionaries more probably would have come from Sassanian lands rather than the Roman Empire. The Church of the East (Nestorians) was much bigger in Sassanian lands than it was Roman lands, and Iraq/Iran is a lot closer to China than the Roman empire. Really, they could even have come from Central Asia, since the Church of the East had a very big presence in Central Asia until around the 14th century. No reason the mission to China has to have been a long distance endeavor, there were a lot of Church of the East Christians not that far from China quite early on. Edit: This is not to say that Christian missionaries from the Roman Empire can't have reached China, they may have, but I don't think the presence of the Church of the East in China in the 600s is evidence for this.
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Sep 27, 2023 16:02
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Virgil:
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Sep 27, 2023 17:28
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Go check out the dickriding under that. Insane. It’s not like it’s some mystery where Latins come from.
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Sep 27, 2023 17:42
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Vahakyla posted:Go check out the dickriding under that. Insane. No, thank you.
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Sep 27, 2023 17:43
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Vahakyla posted:Go check out the dickriding under that. Insane. You can’t spell “Atlantis” without “Latins”. Coincidence ???
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Sep 27, 2023 17:45
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Next you'll tell me that the archeological evidence tells us Rome was founded way before 753 BC. Pathetic.
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Sep 27, 2023 17:46
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Vahakyla posted:Go check out the dickriding under that. Insane. Its funny because he's not responding to a post about the Aeneid or anything, it's like it just suddenly occurred to him. I know he has a history of taking creators names off stuff and pretending he invented it, from memes to Tesla, but it takes real grapes to pretend you invented the Roman Empire's most famous literary work.
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Sep 27, 2023 18:00
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If rome were on the coast of Italy he may have a point
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Sep 27, 2023 18:09
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You're telling me a Trojan
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Sep 27, 2023 18:32
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Guys, I've been thinking, maybe the Norse Gods came from Troy too?
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Sep 27, 2023 19:17
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Cessna posted:Guys, I've been thinking, maybe the Norse Gods came from Troy too? Considering the world was made by the Aesir slaughtering an ice giant and planting a tree on his corpse, I'm skeptical. As far as I know, Troy was founded long after the world was made. And the Vanir are creepy Elf gods, they certainly didn't come from a Human city, either!
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Sep 27, 2023 19:33
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Cessna posted:Guys, I've been thinking, maybe the Norse Gods came from Troy too? No, they came from space. Except for Odin, he was just an old guy they met who told them who they should be.
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Sep 27, 2023 19:33
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The Virgil Chad vs the Tesla Virgin.
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Sep 27, 2023 20:31
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Also all this reminds me of one of my favorite Onion articles
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Sep 27, 2023 20:39
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Cessna posted:Guys, I've been thinking, maybe the Norse Gods came from Troy too? This was how Snorri explained them, right? Because he was a Christian? And Geoffrey of Monmouth said Britain was founded by a Trojan named Brutus. I guess when the only old books you have are the Bible and Homer there's a lot of incentive to figure out where your people fit into it.
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Sep 27, 2023 21:41
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The Norse gods, says Snorri, came from Asia and that’s why they’re called Aesir. He also says the Vanir came from near the River Tana (Don, in Russia). Which you might think would cause them to be called Tanir. Luckily Snorri knows the river used to be called the Vana.
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Sep 27, 2023 21:50
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