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Considering that Superman originally didn't fly, I think it is fair to say that Jedi are already at that power level, or have been for decades. Incidentally, I always thought the reason people shat themselves over the midichlorians was because it took away the ~mystique~ of the Force. By adding science to it, it's not magic anymore. Also, reinforcing that a lot of people want to keep Star Wars in a fantasy setting as opposed to sci-fi, but Star Wars has never been hard sci-fi
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Sep 29, 2023 01:42
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That's exactly it, plus it seems tacked on years later. This is a common theme for Star wars where things are obviously being made up along the way instead of thought out prior and revealed gradually/ eventually. See: Luke and Leia being siblings, Vader being Luke's father, 3po and r2 being created by Anakin, etc etc
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Sep 29, 2023 01:51
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Seriously can't believe how much this season has turned it around. It's still no Andor, but I'd watch a ton more of this any day. Bummed we've gotten so little with Ezra and the season is almost through, his actor really brings it.
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Sep 29, 2023 01:51
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:That's exactly it, plus it seems tacked on years later. The OT shows that the force powers are an inherited trait. That's biology, not mysticism. Unless you think the force is more like the divine right of kings, and prefer that idea? FLIPADELPHIA posted:See: ...Vader being Luke's father, 3po and r2 being created by Anakin, etc etc "Vader" is literally the Dutch word for father, so Lucas intended him to be a father (or father-figure) as far back as 1977. And nobody said Anakin made R2. So your "common theme" has dwindled down to just 3PO and Luke-Leia. I'll give you Luke-Leia - it feels like a hasty resolution to the missing Skywalker sibling that Yoda suggested in ESB. 3PO being made by Anakin doesn't contradict anything that came before or make anything worse, so why are you calling it out?
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Sep 29, 2023 02:28
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I think most people would say it makes the universe smaller
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Sep 29, 2023 02:29
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Tequila Bob posted:The OT shows that the force powers are an inherited trait. That's biology, not mysticism. Unless you think the force is more like the divine right of kings, and prefer that idea? I think 3PO had a different origin prior to TPM (like it was mentioned in the Droids cartoon or something) but I’m not completely sure how true that is and how canon that was even if it is true (plus he got his memory wiped prior to the OT anyway)
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Sep 29, 2023 02:37
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I figured the force had some basis in biology because of the ysalamiri in video games. Midichlorians was one of many things in TPM that just made me shrug, where it made others tack it on to their list of mortal sins of star wars. I get the sense of the loss of mysticism, that just was never really a thing for me.
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Sep 29, 2023 02:44
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koolkal posted:There's no reason a Jedi couldn't stand on a rock or something and levitate the rock. Go stand on a rock and see if you can lift it off the ground 
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Sep 29, 2023 02:56
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I didn’t watch clone wars, what makes Thrawn such a threat as opposed to say Vader?
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Sep 29, 2023 03:25
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Invalid Validation posted:I didn’t watch clone wars, what makes Thrawn such a threat as opposed to say Vader? Thrawn wasn’t in Clone Wars, he was in Rebels (and also the EU books from back in the 90s). I think it’s mostly because he’s smart and a master strategist who’s good at getting inside his opponent’s head
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Sep 29, 2023 03:36
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Invalid Validation posted:I didn’t watch clone wars, what makes Thrawn such a threat as opposed to say Vader? He's pretty drat good at thinking on his feet and finding weaknesses. If he ever see's a finger painting you did as a child, you are as good as dead.
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Sep 29, 2023 03:38
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He also was the one responsible for dealing with other coup attempts against the Emperor. Wait, poo poo, TIE Fighter isn't canon 
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Sep 29, 2023 03:39
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Tequila Bob posted:"Vader" is literally the Dutch word for father, so Lucas intended him to be a father (or father-figure) as far back as 1977. ahh yes, george is famous for his knowledge and love of the dutch language, definitely didn't just remove "in" from the word invader surely sidious is also a dutch word and not just insidious with the "in" dropped off
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Sep 29, 2023 03:44
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Darth Cel
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Sep 29, 2023 03:46
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Tequila Bob posted:The OT shows that the force powers are an inherited trait. That's biology, not mysticism. Unless you think the force is more like the divine right of kings, and prefer that idea? Does it show that? Obi-Wan taught Luke how to use the force because he has a connection to Vader. The OT never says as far as I can recall that Luke can only use it because he's Vader's son. It's literally the opposite of the Divine right of Kings. Anyone can learn to feel and use the force, it just requires training and discipline. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 03:47
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I think alls yalls not really giving enough credit to the long term planning. Shmi was impregnated by a force ghost. As it turns out Qui Gonn had rediscovered this Jedi spell, which Obi Wan, Yoda, Luke and Anakin and I'm not sure who else learned easily enough. And that's why Anakin's midichlorian count was so high. It turns out it's just because when someone is impregnating someone as a force ghost, it's only midichlorians that get added. So when Luke did the living projection in LOTJ, he could have like made maybe one or two Anakin level jeddys.
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Sep 29, 2023 03:52
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Does it show that? Obi-Wan taught Luke how to use the force because he has a connection to Vader. The OT never says as far as I can recall that Luke can only use it because he's Vader's son. It's literally the opposite of the Divine right of Kings. Anyone can learn to feel and use the force, it just requires training and discipline. I think return of the jedi has luke being a creeper about how leia has to be trained because of the bloodline enough that it's at least strongly implied to be hereditary at that point. As if we needed any more reasons to think return of the jedi is bad
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Sep 29, 2023 04:02
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Aces High posted:Incidentally, I always thought the reason people shat themselves over the midichlorians was because it took away the ~mystique~ of the Force. By adding science to it, it's not magic anymore. Also, reinforcing that a lot of people want to keep Star Wars in a fantasy setting as opposed to sci-fi, but Star Wars has never been hard sci-fi You can’t have a mystical subjective experience and also use it to throw cars at people. The first three movies played coy with whether telekinesis was bullshit or not, but that’s not sustainable. To preserve the ‘mystique’ of Episode 4: A New Hope indefinitely, you would need to constantly introduce incredible new contrivances to ensure that nothing concrete ever happens. Much simpler to just say it’s magnets, and move on with your life.
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Sep 29, 2023 05:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You can’t have a mystical subjective experience and also use it to throw cars at people. The first three movies played coy with whether telekinesis was bullshit or not, but that’s not sustainable. What? Sure you can. That's all over the source material (Buddhism and Taoism), you can absolutely have deep, mystical knowledge and have it give you superpowers. Also, in no way did they play coy, Yoda and Luke lifted a god damned space ship out of the swamp by waving their hands around. There is no moment in Star Wars where the viewer is meant to think "this Force business is a bunch of bullshit".
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Sep 29, 2023 05:27
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Aces High posted:Considering that Superman originally didn't fly It is sort of hilarious to think that there was a point where "ok so this new superhero guy, he can jump REALLY loving HIGH" was a thing. Flying seems almost less ridiculous by comparison.
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Sep 29, 2023 05:30
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Snowmanatee posted:Jedi don’t really have fine control over objects they levitate so it’d make no sense that they could fly with any sort of agility. That's more of a function of the special effects of the time using fishing line to pull objects around.
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Sep 29, 2023 05:33
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Megillah Gorilla posted:That's more of a function of the special effects of the time using fishing line to pull objects around. yeah aren't there scenes in Clone Wars / Rebels of people using the force to pick locks or operate force-wielder-only machinery
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Sep 29, 2023 05:37
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Invalid Validation posted:I didn’t watch clone wars, what makes Thrawn such a threat as opposed to say Vader? I haven't watched the animated stuff so don't know any differences it introduced, but one of the defining things about Thrawn in his original stories was that he was actively positioned as the anti-Vader - a dispassionate and unflappable strategist who was disdainful of Vader's capricious brutality and wastefulness
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Sep 29, 2023 05:41
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corona familiar posted:yeah aren't there scenes in Clone Wars / Rebels of people using the force to pick locks or operate force-wielder-only machinery Vader flips a switch from across the room in Empire
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Sep 29, 2023 05:45
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Darth flamible
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Sep 29, 2023 07:03
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Tequila Bob posted:
Lmao
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Sep 29, 2023 07:22
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covidstomper58 posted:I think alls yalls not really giving enough credit to the long term planning. Shmi was impregnated by a force ghost. As it turns out Qui Gonn had rediscovered this Jedi spell, which Obi Wan, Yoda, Luke and Anakin and I'm not sure who else learned easily enough. And that's why Anakin's midichlorian count was so high. It turns out it's just because when someone is impregnating someone as a force ghost, it's only midichlorians that get added. So when Luke did the living projection in LOTJ, he could have like made maybe one or two Anakin level jeddys. My impression is Anakin probably never learned or studied it per se, more like he is The Force personified and once he no longer has to worry about his hosed up, physical shell, he can do pretty much anything. I'm guessing with letting go and passing on also came with a sense of enlightenment so he doesn't interfere with the physical world as it's all the will of the Force and all will right in the end. Unless if someone really fucks with his student, in which case he shows up to wake her rear end up.
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Sep 29, 2023 10:45
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Anakin is a half-divine being, like Hercules or Theseus. Shmi might as well got golden showered-ed by Zeus, for our narrative purposes. Normally, the half divine child king would be borne of a noble young woman and then raised by slaves, instead of being borne directly from a slave. Anakin didn’t even get a proper ride down the river in a wicker basket.
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Sep 29, 2023 11:57
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He swam upstream like a trout. That's the moral of episode 1. "There's always a bigger fish"
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Sep 29, 2023 12:24
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Aces High posted:Wait, poo poo, TIE Fighter isn't canon From the music to the Thrawn cameo, the TIE Fighter opening is still loving baller https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK6Q8QgnCDs even though Thrawn is wearing his Grand Admiral insignia when he's only a vice-admiral 
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Sep 29, 2023 14:52
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Begemot posted:What? Sure you can. That's all over the source material (Buddhism and Taoism), you can absolutely have deep, mystical knowledge and have it give you superpowers. So why haven’t these superpowers been proven? It’s the old Mystery Men joke about the guy who can turn invisible, but only when nobody’s watching. You can take a bunch of drugs and have an ‘out of body experience’ or whatever, but once you start actually doing telekinesis it’s no longer supernatural. We can hook your rear end up to a dynamo. Think of it this way: in the first three Star Wars movies, nearly everything happens to Luke - the very credulous guy - briefly, in isolated locations and/or periods of high stress, usually when nobody’s watching. What proof does Han, the skeptic, have that psychic powers are real? There’s basically just that one quick scene where Vader pulls a gun out of his hand, and that’s the kind of unimpressive story you hear all the time: “the gun just flew out of my hand!” This is an obvious contrast with the PT, where kid Anakin demonstrates remote viewing powers with 100% accuracy and likes to show off his telekinesis skills for Padme. It would be impossible for the Jedi Order to operate out in the open, as they do, without their powers being thoroughly documented.
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Sep 29, 2023 15:09
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:So why haven’t these superpowers been proven? It’s the old Mystery Men joke about the guy who can turn invisible, but only when nobody’s watching. Vader uses the force to strangle a senior military officer while an entire room full of eyewitnesses try to make themselves look unimportant. Tarkin is completely unimpressed, presumably having seen it before, and Vader only releases his victim at Tarkin's prodding.
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Sep 29, 2023 15:19
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Arc Light posted:Vader uses the force to strangle a senior military officer while an entire room full of eyewitnesses try to make themselves look unimportant. Tarkin is completely unimpressed, presumably having seen it before, and Vader only releases his victim at Tarkin's prodding. Doesn't one of the officers in ANH mention Vader's "sorcery" at one point too? Like they all know that Vader can do some supernatural poo poo. e: wasn't it the officer he then chokes?
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Sep 29, 2023 15:25
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Arc Light posted:Vader uses the force to strangle a senior military officer while an entire room full of eyewitnesses try to make themselves look unimportant. Tarkin is completely unimpressed, presumably having seen it before, and Vader only releases his victim at Tarkin's prodding. Very specifically, that officer thinks he's being strangled. There's a difference if you're looking for it. aBagorn posted:Doesn't one of the officers in ANH mention Vader's "sorcery" at one point too? Like they all know that Vader can do some supernatural poo poo. They "believe" Vader can do sorcery. And yes, same guy. "Don't you use your magic on me aaaagggHh" has an easy enough explanation - Vader wasn't doing anything, the officer just thought he was and reacted accordingly. I think SMG has pointed out before the first unequivocal force usage in the films is luke lifting c3p0s chair. trevorreznik fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 15:26
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It never really made sense how people dismiss sorcery and witchcraft as nonsense. Even Blackbeard scoffed at the existence of witches when by all accounts Blackbeard would be considered a witch as well for the things he can do.
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Sep 29, 2023 15:27
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trevorreznik posted:Very specifically, that officer thinks he's being strangled. There's a difference if you're looking for it. this is an incredibly cynical reading that i personally reject, but you do you i guess
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Sep 29, 2023 15:31
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aBagorn posted:this is an incredibly cynical reading that i personally reject, but you do you i guess I reject it as well, it's just a fun + different interpretation.
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Sep 29, 2023 15:36
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Vader straight up kills two guys with magic in Empire in front of witnesses but I'm sure they just wanted to die or something edit: and flips a switch from across a room and hurls a bunch of furniture at Luke but it was probably just the wind
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Sep 29, 2023 15:41
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Aces High posted:Considering that Superman originally didn't fly, I think it is fair to say that Jedi are already at that power level, or have been for decades. I object to it because it’s pointless, unintelligible, and introduces yet more ethical issues Lucas doesn’t even care about. Bad enough the whole “slavery? No problem for us” attitude in TPM, but Qui-Gonn takes a blood sample to analyze without permission, and the result comes back “higher than any Jedi.” So let’s consider the implications: 1. Do midicholorians translate into power, or just potential? Because we never see Anakin clearly demonstrate Force powers well beyond any other Jedi. If it’s potential, that could drive the fear over training Anakin, but it appears that they never tell him about his midichlorian count, and there’s still the problem of “he’s too old and dangerous to train, but we’ll let him go so he can become a Sith later instead of imprisoning him.” 2. In that exchange, it’s clear Obi-Wan knows Yoda’s count and Qui-Gonn seems to know that no Jedi has such a high count. So this is public knowledge within the Order? But in Eps 2 and 3, Anakin doesn’t know his for some reason? Because it’s absolutely something someone like him would throw in the Council’s faces. Why would you make that information public in the first place, even within the Order? 3. None of the implications of a Force blood-test find their way anywhere in the setting. Why isn’t the Jedi order forcibly blood-testing all children at birth? Why isn’t the Empire? Do levels change over time or are you born and dying with stable counts? Do “ordinary” people potentially have high counts, and if so, do these untrained talents receive advantages at things like games of chance or reflex-based activities? You’d expect casinos to blood test people looking for midichlorians (unless the Jedi kept this top top secret while also sharing it with all members of the Order—thank God none of them ever went bad). 4. Where’s the scientific research into the mechanics of the Force? Did someone try a massive injection of midichlorians to gain Force powers? Can they be killed, and if so, could you use radiation to strip someone of Force powers temporarily or permanently? If the Order rejects people with massive counts, shouldn’t they then be subjected to treatment to reduce their power? That’s only scratching the surface. But the truth is, Lucas needed to establish Anakin as special/“the chosen one” and had no mechanism with which to do it, instead inventing midichlorians. Why not have a legend or prophecy with specific life details that Qui-Gonn thinks match Anakin? If it’s ambiguous, then that helps fuel the later disagreement over whether Anakin is the chosen one; giving him an objectively and proveably high midichlorian count would seem to mark him as special and makes the Council look idiotic. And given we know there’s a prophecy, you don’t need to introduce midichlorians to make this alternative work, you just need to write the drat prophecy, Lucas. Like, arguments over the phrasing of a prophecy are mythmaking 101, but the movies never even give us the language!
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Sep 29, 2023 15:44
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aBagorn posted:this is an incredibly cynical reading that i personally reject, but you do you i guess Playing devil's advocate here, in the very first film, it's at least reasonable to think that Jedi powers are limited to manipulation of the mind. Kenobi tricks stormtroopers on multiple occasions, and an argument can be made that Vader only makes that imperial officer *think* that he's choking. Tarkin isn't at all surprised and tells Vader to knock it off, so he's obviously familiar with what's going on, but there's nothing concrete to prove it happens outside of telepathy. ... But to be super clear, I def prefer the path the films went down, where the force is very much a real way that that users can physically manipulate the world around them, but I get the idea that it was more limited in scope for the first film. However, it was absolutely a real thing in that first film, no matter how much Han scoffed at it. Whether Vader was physically choking a dude, or just making him feel like he was choking, it was a demonstrable use of the force in front of a bunch of witnesses, to include at least one (Tarkin) who clearly knew that the force was real and had the authority to bring Vader to heel. Edit: For that matter, Luke wore a helmet that completely blocked out his vision, yet he was still able to block training blaster shots using a lightsaber. So even in that first movie, the idea that the force could provide a degree of precognition had already been committed to film
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Sep 29, 2023 15:55
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