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Blasmeister posted:Dreading this thread finding out there’s an international Men’s day I think everyone ITT found that out when the first chud said, "Well why isn't there an international Men's day" Edit: 100 will be the retirement age by the time I get near it
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Sep 29, 2023 16:12
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OwlFancier posted:I would probably suggest that sidelining the people who keep 1: telling men that feminism is the problem and why they are miserable and 2: that we apparently need a men's minister to solve the problems that feminism has caused, would be a helpful step. But that has already failed. You can sit there and say 'We need to push Andrew Tate, Lawrence Fox et. al out of the discussion space' but the fact is that there are disaffected young men who, when looking for help, get two responses: 1. Feminism 2. Chud culture Where are they going to turn? It doesn't matter what the insides of the two positions looks like, only one of those hints that men aren't an afterthought and it isn't feminism. Feminism by brand is incapable of capturing the interest of these men, and unless you want to lose them to the fringe you need an answer.
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Sep 29, 2023 16:14
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Rugz posted:But that has already failed. You can sit there and say 'We need to push Andrew Tate, Lawrence Fox et. al out of the discussion space' but the fact is that there are disaffected young men who, when looking for help, get two responses: So what, the answer is to give them what the want, a minister who agrees that more equality ruin men's lives?
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Sep 29, 2023 16:18
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Feminism works very well for me. If you feel more drawn towards the other alternative then I would suggest that says more about you than anything. The reason those two approaches attract different people is because they offer fundamentally different solutions. Feminism does not say men are an afterthought (although plenty of anti-feminists will assert that it does) but what it does not, and can not offer is giving men power over others. Some men want that, some men feel they are entitled to that, that it is somehow their birthright, enjoyed by their precedessors up until quite recently when the feminists conspired to take it away from them. This is partially true but it ignores the fundamental element that it was wrong that society was ordered that way. But the people who buy into the men's rights side of things don't care about that. Which is why it is a position beloved by fascists, who exemplify politics without care for others. If somebody wants that then I can not talk them out of it, and I also can not make concessions to it, because "what if we were just a little bit oppressive" is fundamentally antithetical to what I want in the world and not a position that the already marginalized people in the world are going to be amenable to. The masculine supremacy position has already failed, it gave birth to feminism out of necessity, its slow collapse is why you have all these horrible twats complaining about "masculinity being in crisis" or whatever. The oppression always births its antithesis, there can be no permanent triumph of patriarchy because it depends upon creating conditions which beg for remediation. So the only option left is equality. You will not get anywhere begging for compromise between these two groups because their existence is antithetical to each other and the product of historical forces. It is like shouting at the tide. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 16:19
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Noxville posted:So what, the answer is to give them what the want, a minister who agrees that more equality ruin men's lives? The answer is to give them a brand to be drawn towards that they can actually identify with at the surface level. This is the age of the internet, where if something doesn't grip you in the first 5 seconds you go somewhere else. Whatever the merits of it may be for downtrodden men, feminism is not going to attract them when compared to someone saying they have all the answers and you should be really angry about it. Young men aren't going out looking for a cause, they are looking for consideration, when they find it in a MGTOW zealot they inherit the cause. Now imagine if there was a minister whose brief covered male healthcare uptake, male workplace wellness and male crime prevention notionally called a men's minister. It doesn't matter if the zealots are crying that it isn't what they were asking for (and it isn't) but their interest base has been eroded because now you have somewhere for young men to latch on that isn't controlled by incels, and whose problems can actually be solved by the created position (although this is mostly irrelevant, because the problem being fixed is the one of first contact). The alternative is to just wholesale tell every man with problems that isn't enamoured with feminism that they are the problem and not worth fixing. OwlFancier posted:But the people who buy into the men's rights side of things don't care about that. Which is why it is a position beloved by fascists, who exemplify politics without care for others. If somebody wants that then I can not talk them out of it, and I also can not make concessions to it, because "what if we were just a little bit oppressive" is fundamentally antithetical to what I want in the world and not a position that the already marginalized people in the world are going to be amenable to. Recently a poll suggested that as many as 1 in 6 young boys have a positive opinion of Andrew Tate, do you consider these to be formative fascists 'buying into men's rights'? Are you prepared to discard that proportion of the next generation to 'I don't care go away' while making no steps to address the situation that gave rise to their existence? Do you think feminism is the answer to a problem that arose despite the existence of feminism? Rugz fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 16:28
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Nothing engages the yooths more than a minister putting out bland statements about going for a prostate exam.
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Sep 29, 2023 16:30
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I had a prostate exam the other day. It was painless and over in 10 seconds. Men are just big babies.
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Sep 29, 2023 16:34
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I saw an ad once for how 1 in 10 men get prostate cancer and I thought to myself "those are pretty good odds"
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Sep 29, 2023 16:41
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Mega Comrade posted:I had a prostate exam the other day. tbf a lot of women are shite when it comes to medical examinations of intimate parts too. Saw quite a lot of comments on an instagram post from women saying they'd never ever go for a cervical screening b/c they think it'll be painful. There have been such big pushes to educate women on the importance of the cervical screening (iirc Jade Goody dying kicked that into gear) but there's still always going to be people ignorant people out there sadly.
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Sep 29, 2023 16:41
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Rugz posted:The answer is to give them a brand to be drawn towards that they can actually identify with at the surface level. This is the age of the internet, where if something doesn't grip you in the first 5 seconds you go somewhere else. Whatever the merits of it may be for downtrodden men, feminism is not going to attract them when compared to someone saying they have all the answers and you should be really angry about it. Young men aren't going out looking for a cause, they are looking for consideration, when they find it in a MGTOW zealot they inherit the cause. Now imagine if there was a minister whose brief covered male healthcare uptake, male workplace wellness and male crime prevention notionally called a men's minister. It doesn't matter if the zealots are crying that it isn't what they were asking for (and it isn't) but their interest base has been eroded because now you have somewhere for young men to latch on that isn't controlled by incels, and whose problems can actually be solved by the created position (although this is mostly irrelevant, because the problem being fixed is the one of first contact). If the men's minister actually did things that were positive for men, they'd be branded woke and ignored/mocked by the right. I agree that you need to bring these young men in somehow, but creating a men's minister does less than nothing to achieve that - you need propaganda. And if you're conceding that you need propaganda you may as well use it to bring them onside with feminism, the thing that already does what they want, instead of creating another ministerial paycheck. There might be room for a junior minister under equalities who deals specifically with the male stuff, but in theory that office should already be on it.
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Sep 29, 2023 16:43
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I’ve not got to the end of the thread yet but I deeply regret even slightly seeing a bit of the point of that carpet based poster. Jesus Christ.
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Sep 29, 2023 16:45
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Miftan posted:If the men's minister actually did things that were positive for men, they'd be branded woke and ignored/mocked by the right. I agree that you need to bring these young men in somehow, but creating a men's minister does less than nothing to achieve that - you need propoganda. And if you're conceding that you need propaganda you may as well use it to bring them onside with feminism, the thing that already does what they want, instead of creating another ministerial paycheck. Propaganda for a new position is way easier than propaganda for a position that young men already consider to be a failure. It doesn't matter if they are branded woke and mocked because the hardliners are not going to be appeased by any sane measures anyone would ever implement. The target is the drifters looking for a place, not the cult leaders, and the brand of feminism is not fit for purpose. Feminism as a brand is not the answer to a problem that has reared its head in the wake of feminism. This is not a political question it is a corporate one, this is the government trying to compete in the self-help guru space while also establishing real change. When a company brand is in the dirt it is more expedient to close the doors and set up a new brand. Miftan posted:There might be room for a junior minister under equalities who deals specifically with the male stuff, but in theory that office should already be on it. The current situation is based on the presumption that they are not, in fact, on it.
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Sep 29, 2023 16:49
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Rugz posted:Recently a poll suggested that as many as 1 in 6 young boys have a positive opinion of Andrew Tate, do you consider these to be formative fascists 'buying into men's rights'? yes? if you think there's a percentage above which you can stop saying people are supporting fascists I have the history of elections in several countries to point to
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Sep 29, 2023 16:50
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Rugz posted:Recently a poll suggested that as many as 1 in 6 young boys have a positive opinion of Andrew Tate, do you consider these to be formative fascists 'buying into men's rights'? Are you prepared to discard that proportion of the next generation to 'I don't care go away' while making no steps to address the situation that gave rise to their existence? Do you think feminism is the answer to a problem that arose despite the existence of feminism? Feminism has the actual answers to the the gendered problems facing men, because they are of other men's making when you get right down to it. So the two options for speaking to someone who is struggling with a gendered masculine problem are either that I tell them the solution, or that I lie to them. That lying could take the form of describing feminism but studiously avoiding the word or associating with other feminists, which I do not think is a practical approach because it is very obvious when you're doing that and somebody on the right could very easily point out that that's what I'm doing and I would not be able to credibly claim that I'm not, and it also denies me the use of any of the self described feminists who have already done plenty of thinking about this subject and also of any potential resources that feminist organizations might have to offer. All in all it seems like an absurd prospect. The other option (outside of just adopting the reactionary position which is what the andrew tate imitators do) is telling them that feminism isn't the answer and we need some sort of third position, but such a position does not exist, it can not be created, there is no neutral ground in the conflict between people who have the correct answers and are trying to make them work, and people who have the wrong answers that are rooted in reasserting crumbling historical norms. I can't credibly tell that lie because it would be intrinsically nonsense. The only option I have is telling people what I believe to be true, which is that feminist analysys offers very compelling explanations for why masculinity is a pretty crap thing to experience, and that the people who make it that way are mostly other men. And that there are plenty of such men out there who will gladly take your money to tell you that it's actually women's fault, but they are not offering you a viable solution, they only want your money and your power to lift themselves up. It is they who are the reason why so many people think feminism isn't for them. You seem to imagine that feminism is just inherently poorly branded, but it is branded by reactionaries that way because it is a threat to them, they do this with every social movement which threatens them and I think you have very clearly demonstrated over the past few days that you are very ready to internalize those views. It is not a coincidence that radical movements seeking to address material wrongs that people suffer are all "fringe rubbish" according to you. Because the people who benefit from those wrongs work very hard to ensure that threats to their power are discredited. And if you believe that all you need is some new, better branded position, then you will find that either that position cannot threaten them, or it too will be lumped in with one of the positions you so disparage. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 16:51
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Someone post a funny picture or tweet please
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Sep 29, 2023 16:53
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DreddyMatt posted:Someone post a funny picture or tweet please Aren't the tories cunts huh?
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Sep 29, 2023 16:55
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if feminists just stopped being so mean and shrill then they would convince all these reasonable men with sensible concerns. feminism needs to rebrand and stop any woman from saying things that could be interpreted by these reasonable male commentators as mean and then maybe people will start to listen to it. if a man says something misogynistic though that's just a sign he's being ignored by these harpies and it shouldn't discourage us from listening to these fine men's rights advocates. if feminism is failing it is because they have failed to properly brand themselves in the entirely level marketplace of ideas that has no bias at all. these men want reasoned debate and there is definitely a way for feminists to satisfy them by just giving into only a few of their demands. then the manospherians will be happy
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Sep 29, 2023 16:55
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OwlFancier posted:Feminism has the actual answers to the the gendered problems facing men, because they are all of other men's making. So the two options for speaking to someone who is struggling with a gendered masculine problem are either that I tell them the solution, or that I lie to them. You are telling them a solution they have already discarded. If that is the end of your help then that is your prerogative but offering a solution they don't discard at face value based on brand seems like it will be more helpful to more people. You are listing off all these reasons why someone should be engaged with feminism while missing the point that they have already subconsciously decided not to engage with feminism because of the word 'feminism'. All you are doing is outlining all the external bad actors that are making feminism's job more difficult while staunchly declaring that just 'doing feminism harder' is the way to go. It is a toxic brand, the who and the why of that is not relevant. OwlFancier posted:It is not a coincidence that radical movements seeking to address material wrongs that people suffer are all "fringe rubbish" according to you. Because the people who benefit from those wrongs work very hard to ensure that threats to their power are discredited. And if you believe that all you need is some new, better branded position, then you will find that either that position cannot threaten them, or it too will be lumped in with one of the positions you so disparage. I am interested how this fatalistic idea of power structures incorporating positions in order to neutralise them as a threat works alongside the idea that a position can exist to affect real change at all. Rugz fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 16:57
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Sir Sidney Poitier posted:Aren't the tories cunts huh? I work in Manchester and the area I'm in is half closed because of the conference. Every person who came into the shop has either complained about the tories or ask why the streets are shut and then complain about the tories. Not been an awful day.
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Sep 29, 2023 16:58
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Rugz posted:You are telling them a solution they have already discarded. If that is the end of your help then that is your prerogative but offering a solution they don't discard at face value based on brand seems like it will be more helpful to more people. You are pointing to somebody who has decided that going to the doctor is not the solution to them having cancer, and claiming that the people selling colloidal silver are helping them by offering a solution they haven't rejected, while ignoring the fact that the reason they have rejected the actual solution is in part because of the people selling collidal silver. The world does not bend to people's desire for there to be a happier solution to their problems, problems exist in the world and the things will either solve them or not, that does not change just because people don't like the sound of the solution.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:00
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We don't have to respond to every low-effort troll guys, c'mon.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:00
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Rugz posted:Healthcare and masculinity are linked though? In fact one of the big things is that men don't seek out medical help when they need it because of the concept of masculinity. Walk it off, toughen up, I can handle it, etc. That is not a 'the healthcare system need to be fixed by the healthcare minister' that is a 'the X minister needs to sort out the barriers to healthcare for men'.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:01
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Blasmeister posted:Dreading this thread finding out there’s an international Men’s day And this year it is on November 19th: https://ukmensday.org.uk/2023-theme/ (You have to be a bit careful with googling for it though because one of the links which appears to be IMD is actually a Jordy Peterson incel site) When I was a Party Member, we women all did heaps for International Women's Day so when it was coming up to IMD I suggested that the men would like to do similar for IMD but not a single one out of 880 members (maybe 60% of whom were men) stirred themselves to action. Themes: quote:general messaging (“supporting men and boys” “Helping men and boys’ wellbeing” “we take men who contact us seriously”) Personally, I have no problem with the idea of a IMD because I know men who have been sexually assaulted / raped by other men, and by women in a position of power over them, men who have suffered domestic violence again both by male & female partners, and by parents or siblings, men who do not get help for physical or mental health problems even when it is available. I've seen women who bang on for eternity about sexual harassment against women saying (even posting as comments on my FB) saying they didn't care about sexual harassment against men because all men deserve it (even when they are young men 18-19 years old working away from home in tourist hotels to support families back home being sexually harassed by - mainly female but sometimes male - tourists for sex). And all those comments from other men about 'lucky boy' when an underage kid gets shagged by attractive female teacher ie all men are up for it all the time. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 17:01
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I always said that the problem with feminism is that it isn't considerate enough of men's feelings, which are somehow simultaneously unmoving granite obelisks that can withstand any storm and also desperately fragile tea sets which must be coddled and cradled lest they see a word that upsets them Honestly, if in space year 2023 you're looking at someone who's supposed to have locked women in a basement as a positive role model, you were probably a lost cause to begin with and it has nothing to do with sexual harassment being generally frowned upon nowadays
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Sep 29, 2023 17:01
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Now I’ve reached the end, I do agree that ‘simply tell men about feminism as that’s the right answer’ may be technically correct but also is next to useless as far as politics goes. There are actually efforts being made in this direction at a grass roots and cultural level. In the more organised space you’ve got things like Mandem Meet-ups and Andy’s Man Club, which while not feminist orgs do take disaffected, unhappy men and build them into creatures that take responsibility for their own unhappiness by lifting them up not through a hatred of the other but through community, shared activities, fitness and talking in a way that doesn’t have any pressure, or sense of an in-group or an out-group. I’m part of MM and although I participate less than I’d like I have in the past and know it’s always there, and know there’s a community of men there who recognise that we have our own unique challenges but don’t blame it on women or whatever. Then in a more nebulous sense, there’s definitely a culture developing of men still being manly in a basic aesthetic and behavioural sense (drinking beer in hilarious and dangerous ways, pointless and fun tests of strength, typically laddy things) while aggressively rejecting Andrew Tatey bullshit as being the opposite of what a ‘man should be’. None of these are the platonic ideal of men in a feminist society but they’re getting far closer to it and doing a lot more good, and seeing way more success than ‘tell men feminism is good for them’. That’s something that can come later for sure but that as an opening strategy is emblematic of why the left loses so many disaffected men to Tate and the like. People are turned off when they come to you with a problem and you come back with a political thing as a solution. Why? I dunno, but that’s how it is. P.S. if anyone in Manchester wants to get involved with MM (can be anyone who identifies as a man) then let me know and I can invite you to the group! E: I’d also add my examples in that second bit we’re off the cuff - this culture also in my experience is encouraging of men who choose not to drink, etc, and doesn’t require tests of strength. It’s just about being a good bloke without rejecting the bloke part I suppose. Jakabite fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 17:02
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dadrips posted:I always said that the problem with feminism is that it isn't considerate enough of men's feelings, which are somehow simultaneously unmoving granite obelisks that can withstand any storm and also desperately fragile tea sets which must be coddled and cradled lest they see a word that upsets them This, also. The analysis ignores that a lot of people are attracted to awful people with awful ideas because it is deliberately transgressive and you're not going to get those people on side by offering actual sensible solutions. To an extent you're going to have to hope they either grow out of it or experience something which causes them to be more interested in results over aesthetics.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:03
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OwlFancier posted:You are pointing to somebody who has decided that going to the doctor is not the solution to them having cancer, and claiming that the people selling colloidal silver are helping them by offering a solution they haven't rejected, while ignoring the fact that the reason they have rejected the actual solution is because of the people selling collidal silver. The only reason they are even listening to the person selling colloidal silver is because they have a preconceived notion (not from said colloidal silver merchant) that the doctor isn't actually going to do them any favours. Hell, you can see this perfectly real example in ethnic minority communities where there is no huckster trying to trick people but the idea that going to see a medical professional is a bad idea is deeply ingrained. Now if someone really needed medical care, had a preconceived notion that doctors didn't have their best interests at heart, and then came across a snake oil salesman...
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Sep 29, 2023 17:04
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Many boys would have benefited from a firmer hand growing up. Maybe they would still have terrible values but at least they would be less likely to end as complete failures. Being forced to witness real suffering that puts your own problems to shame as a child also helps to reduce a feeling of entitlement to success. If you at least have a secure job with ok income and an awareness of how much worse off you could be that salves the frustration at lot.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:05
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dadrips posted:I always said that the problem with feminism is that it isn't considerate enough of men's feelings, which are somehow simultaneously unmoving granite obelisks that can withstand any storm and also desperately fragile tea sets which must be coddled and cradled lest they see a word that upsets them When you have primary school children saying they agree with Tate's message you're skirting a bit too close to 'born a wrong 'un' original sin thinking for my taste, particularly at the incidence rate we are seeing in society. OwlFancier posted:The world does not bend to people's desire for there to be a happier solution to their problems, problems exist in the world and the things will either solve them or not, that does not change just because people don't like the sound of the solution. Sorry but this is peak irony.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:07
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‘Men should just listen to feminism’ is true but also reeks of ‘we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!’
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Sep 29, 2023 17:09
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It should not be remotely surprising that children at an early age can internalize incomplete and childish views of the world which have little regard for its complexity or the experience of others. Children are the ideal market for a worldview that suggests they are entitled to everything, that everyone else is wrong, and that they are cool for thinking this way.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:10
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Rugz posted:The only reason they are even listening to the person selling colloidal silver is because they have a preconceived notion (not from said colloidal silver merchant) that the doctor isn't actually going to do them any favours. Hell, you can see this perfectly real example in ethnic minority communities where there is no huckster trying to trick people but the idea that going to see a medical professional is a bad idea is deeply ingrained. Now if someone really needed medical care, had a preconceived notion that doctors didn't have their best interests at heart, and then came across a snake oil salesman... I also like to compare apples to oranges. Seriously though, do you really not see that there may be a difference between white male aversion to medical care, brought on by snake oil salesmen to the reservations of ethnic minority groups who, as you yourself say, are not influenced by these groups? That maybe their issues come from the the health service and, by extension, the State's at best indifference and (far more often) outright hostility to these communities? If anything, this argument is in agreement with feminism ECT and not against it. You're not discussing this topic in good faith and you have not shown any attempt at researching these topics yourself.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:11
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OwlFancier posted:It should not be remotely surprising that children at an early age can internalize incomplete and childish views of the world which have little regard for its complexity or the experience of others. Children are the ideal market for a worldview that suggests they are entitled to everything, that everyone else is wrong, and that they are cool for thinking this way. Good thing they have the incredibly potent force of marketed feminism to snap them out of it before they get too deep into the rabbit hole then isn't it? Skull Servant posted:If anything, this argument is in agreement with feminism ECT and not against it. You're not discussing this topic in good faith and you have not shown any attempt at researching these topics yourself. If you had bothered reading you would have realised that being in agreement with feminism is entirely secondary to the fact that the concept of feminism cannot effectively take root and compete with alternative offerings. This is just another case of someone shouting 'Just do feminism harder'
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Sep 29, 2023 17:14
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Rugz posted:Good thing they have the incredibly potent force of marketed feminism to snap them out of it before they get too deep into the rabbit hole then isn't it? How precisely do you propose you make complex, actual solutions marketable to somebody who seeks out deliberate transgressiveness and cruelty? Again the positions which hold actual solutions and the posiitons which advocate for male domination of society are not offering the same thing. They are not both merely equal options which an impartial observer might choose between purely based on which has better marketing. The position advocated for by tate and his ilk is fascist, it is primarily aesthetically driven and void of solutions because the performative aesthetics are the point. It appeals on an entirely different wavelength to actual solutions, it appeals to people who want to swallow flashy performance rather than deal with difficult realities, until ultimately that too ceases to provide the necessary stimulus and they either drop out of it or find something novel. Which is also exactly why it propagates so well on social media. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 17:16
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You can just not reply to pissflaps. It's free!
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Sep 29, 2023 17:18
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OwlFancier posted:How precisely do you propose you make complex, actual solutions marketable to somebody who seeks out deliberate transgressiveness and cruelty? Are you suggesting that 1 in 6 kids is, at that age, deliberately seek out transgressiveness and cruelty? There are two options on the table, people deliberately not picking one are not deliberately picking the other. Or are you saying that in your mind a not inconsequential amount of the next generation are just hard wired to hate women and went out to find a guy with a megaphone? OwlFancier posted:Again the positions which hold actual solutions and the posiitons which advocate for male domination of society are not offering the same thing. They are not both merely equal options which an impartial observer might choose between purely based on which has better marketing. The position advocated for by tate and his ilk is fascist, it is primarily aesthetically driven and void of solutions because the performative aesthetics are the point. It appeals on an entirely different wavelength to actual solutions. 10 year olds are not going to Tate because they pre-exposure agree with his position, they are going there because they have nowhere else they feel they can go. It literally does not matter what the position is, what the goals are compared to the competition. Rugz fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 17:20
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Rugz posted:When you have primary school children saying they agree with Tate's message you're skirting a bit too close to 'born a wrong 'un' original sin thinking for my taste, particularly at the incidence rate we are seeing in society. What we need is a viewpoint that rejects these outmoded Victorian notions, while also elevating the status of women who have been trodden on by patriarchal society. This is something feminism can, and does, achieve
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Sep 29, 2023 17:21
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dadrips posted:Correct, these children are the byproduct of a sick society which is implicitly rejecting feminism in favour of brutish male chauvanism which says, among other things, that if a man doesn't have a partner and/or cannot provide for them, then he's nothing Good thing that feminism is capable of capturing the minds of all these young people instead of them being drawn to people like Tate.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:24
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Rugz posted:Are you suggesting that 1 in 6 kids is, at that age, deliberately seek out transgressiveness and cruelty? There are two options on the table, people deliberately not picking one are not deliberately picking the other. Or are you saying that in your mind a not inconsequential amount of the next generation are just hard wired to hate women and went out to find a guy with a megaphone? Were you not a child? Of course children desire to be transgressive, and yes they are very frequently cruel because understanding that other people's experience is real and just as important as your own is something that takes time to learn, and it is something that many adults do not even learn how to do very well. It is possible to grow out of that, I would suggest that it's one of the most important parts of growing up in fact. I would hope that a lot of them will grow out of it, but I certainly do not have a way to try and make kindness and consideration for others appealing in the same way that being an odious little poo poo is to some kids. That's something that comes with physical and mental maturity, and even then not always.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:24
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Guavanaut posted:Give them their own sticks and tell them to get the ball. Achieve liberty by handing out sticks? I think we may have just re-invented Irish Republicanism.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:24
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