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loudog999 posted:I agree that the second season is better than the first, but would strongly suggest if any non book reader is enjoying it, read the books. I put it off for years after bailing on the first one halfway in when I was young. In the last couple of years, I’ve gone through the series twice and now am about to finish the third audiobook. You will probably run into characters or chapters that feel like a slog, but the payoffs are usually good and, for me at least, the way the books go from emotional, to full of dread, and then to almost laugh out loud funny is a great ride. I might take your recommendation into consideration. Just one question: some goons recommended ASOIAF when Game of Thrones was in its heyday and I tried it,but was turned off by the huge amounts of unnecessary sexism and SA/rape scenes. Christ, there were a lot. I don’t care about violence and cuss words. Are the books okay toreador, knowing these no-go areas?
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Sep 29, 2023 16:54
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Pan Dulce posted:I might take your recommendation into consideration. Just one question: some goons recommended ASOIAF when Game of Thrones was in its heyday and I tried it,but was turned off by the huge amounts of unnecessary sexism and SA/rape scenes. Christ, there were a lot. If you can handle what you have seen in the show so far you should be good with the books. It handles a couple of things differently from the show based on sex, but I wouldn’t call it sexism. Compared to ASOIAF, or even something like Joe Abercrombie’s books, it’s defiantly tame.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:00
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Pan Dulce posted:ASOIAF when Game of Thrones was in its heyday and I tried it,but was turned off by the huge amounts of unnecessary sexism and SA/rape scenes. Christ, there were a lot. There is a fair degree of sexism but it's 90's 2nd wave feminist "men are like this, women are like this" sexism; after all the central conceit of the series is "women are in charge because men hosed up." Sexism of the "white dude in the 90s trying to be a feminist" variety, not whatever Martin has going on. There is objectionable stuff but it's generally off-camera, not on-camera. For example, the entire pitcher sequence the show just showed us in episode six is a story Egwene tells, not something we see first hand as in the show. There are a few sequences that are . . .. let' say rough . . . later in the series, but it's overall much much much less graphic than ASOIAF. Jordan was aiming much closer to what would later become the Young Adult market, especially in the earlier books.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:02
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DTurtle posted:A question for you (and other non-book readers): He's a louse,down and out who cares for his friends and family and if anyone's an underdog he's one of them. While Egwene is undergoing physical torment, Matt is undergoing mental ones.Hes gonna get more paranoid which the baddies will use as they are now. I'd call him the charming rogue of the group but we've had little time with him.I dunno if he'll ever get any magical powers or not,I'm feeling no so far, but maybe somehow political power. I hope he's not some long lost distant relative of some prince or king. I also thought Egwene was gonna be the real main character, or Nynaeve.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:02
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It won't be a true book adaptation until someone gets spanked  Please no I'm begging you Rafe don't do it
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Sep 29, 2023 17:10
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Pan Dulce posted:I don’t care about violence and cuss words. Are the books okay to read, knowing these no-go areas? Robert Jordan excelled at selling the emotional impact of horrible stuff happening. Being a Vietnam War veteran, it seems like he was completely uninterested by exact, detailed, graphic descriptions of violence, but knew very well the emotional effect that that violence had on the people experiencing it and those doing that violence. Somebody else already wrote that Egwene’s experience in episode 6 was a single paragraph describing what had happened after the fact. Even one of the most iconic scenes for showing violence on a mass scale does not go into detail with regards to what exactly is happening. There is a good amount of spanking and switching, but again, those words are basically as far as the descriptions go. As for cuss words, be prepared for quite a good number of „bloody, blood and ashes, flaming, blasted, Light-blinded fool, muscle-brained cretin“ and more in that vein. Uno is well-known for the extremity of his language. If you could handle him in the show, then you are completely fine for the books. Quixotic1 posted:He's a louse, down and out who cares for his friends and family and if anyone's an underdog he's one of them. While Egwene is undergoing physical torment, Matt is undergoing mental ones. Hes gonna get more paranoid which the baddies will use as they are now. I'd call him the charming rogue of the group but we've had little time with him. I dunno if he'll ever get any magical powers or not, I'm feeling no so far, but maybe somehow political power. I hope he's not some long lost distant relative of some prince or king.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:37
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DTurtle posted:A question for you (and other non-book readers): Honestly, his character is pretty hard to get a read on. He's a bit of a schmuck, and he hasn't shown any of the magic powers the others have, and if it wasn't for that vague bit about how the weave made all four of them special somehow, I'd be thinking he'd just head back to Two Rivers. I'm not sure what he's really DOING here anymore. Maybe his thing is being captured by various people trying to influence the others?
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Sep 29, 2023 17:46
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DTurtle posted:As for cuss words, be prepared for quite a good number of „bloody, blood and ashes, flaming, blasted, Light-blinded fool, muscle-brained cretin“ Sheep swallop! Sheep swallop and bloody buttered onions!
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Sep 29, 2023 17:57
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Buncha woolheads in this thread.
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Sep 29, 2023 18:03
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/context Book reader, started the series when there was only 3 books. I am fine with almost all the changes they have made so far. This season is so much better than the last, but the dude playing Rand is either a terrible actor or they have made a conscious decision to write and direct him as the most boring person ever to live. I give adaptations huge leeway and have enjoyed many of the recent ones of various things, I like to judge things on their own merit, so the above is not a "he's different to my head cannon Rand" thing. Also as an old fart from the UK I am fine with seasons not "having" to be 22 episodes long, but I think 10 would have been better to give a little more breathing room instead of 8.
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Sep 29, 2023 18:20
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I'd like 10 episodes just so I can watch Elayne tell Nyneave she's doing things wrong and then just smash a Sul'dam with a log, the most Nyneave thing I can think of, for 2 more hours.
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Sep 29, 2023 18:33
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I dunno, do you all think he's that boring? He's got main character tattooed across his forehead, and I think he's okay as a bit of a blank slate at the moment. He's just a farmboy who realized he was in way over his head and tried to hide himself away so he wouldn't hurt anyone -- it's a pretty generic start for a fantasy protagonist, but he's just now starting to try to take initiative for himself so it feels like he'll get more time to develop a personality soon?
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Sep 29, 2023 18:33
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Phenotype posted:I dunno, do you all think he's that boring? He's got main character tattooed across his forehead, and I think he's okay as a bit of a blank slate at the moment. He's just a farmboy who realized he was in way over his head and tried to hide himself away so he wouldn't hurt anyone -- it's a pretty generic start for a fantasy protagonist, but he's just now starting to try to take initiative for himself so it feels like he'll get more time to develop a personality soon?
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Sep 29, 2023 18:54
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Nyneave, Egwene, and Elayne are the best part of the show for me and the fact that any scene with Rand has the focus off them is my main beef with him so far.
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Sep 29, 2023 19:30
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RandomReader posted:Your defense against descriptions of Rand as boring is... saying he's a generic blank slate that is hopefully going to develop a personality soon? I dunno, when he's onscreen I'm never like "ugh, I wish more interesting people would show up," I'm eager to see what he does next. He doesn't have to have a deep character besides He Is The Dragon, at least at the beginning of the story here.
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Sep 29, 2023 19:57
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still catching up on this season but are they going to allow padan fain to show up more or is he basically just cameoing a few times? one of the few performances in the show I found genuinely entertaining in its own right (rest of the list is moiraine and lan, and here at ep 3 I don't exactly have high hopes for the rest of their season based on the original material written for them so far) e: in general this has been a show where the antagonists (ishamael, liandrin, padan fain, uhhhh the whitecloak that dies in s1) have been far more compelling to watch because they play emotions that aren't like, teary-eyed teeth-clenched frustration or anger or despair. everyone on the good guy side but elayne is basically joyless, aside from perrin getting to joke with the other hunters and loial for about 30 seconds before everything goes miserably south in that plotline Valentin fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 20:02
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No spoilers (as the title says), but as a book reader I can see how tv-only people are missing context for lots of things, which explain lots of complaints I'm reading in forums over the series. The tv series throws a comment here or a line there to try to give clues to the audience, so it isn't like there is nothing here, but I suspect it -**-isn't near enough-**- for the new audience, but well, they just don't have more time to do it properly given how they have to run from scene and scene. For example -How incredibly traumatic is to be stilled, and how in reality the One Power is addictive (and the withdrawal if you can't use it anymore), and how the Aes Sedai are a channelers organization where she doesn't have a real place anymore if she can't channel, which explains the personal drama and inner conflict of Moraine in the first episodes. -How terrible is to find oneself in front of a Forsaken. They are literally their boogeyman, with people telling their children scary tales about them so they go to sleep on time. -How people in this world have hardwired in their brain how male channelers are THE WORST THING EVER, how the mere thought is DISGUSTING (because they have legends of the one power being tainted for them by the Dark One himself, so being close to a male channeler is being dangerously close to their own Satan figure, in a less metaphysical and more literal way), how they in general and the Dragon in particular broke the world thousands of years ago, how they have folk tales of all turning crazy and killing everyone eventually, without exception; all which explains Rand wanting to gently caress off into some hidden hole and forget about everything, and being less proactive than people would like. -How far away are some locations, for example when Mat appears in Falme in this episode thanks to Lanfear, that's a physical impossibility in his mind. They have been clues and mentions of all this, again, but it's easy to forget how for someone new can miss this mention or forget that one from one week to another, or not give enough importance to that other one.
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Sep 29, 2023 20:10
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Valentin posted:still catching up on this season but are they going to allow padan fain to show up more or is he basically just cameoing a few times? one of the few performances in the show I found genuinely entertaining in its own right (rest of the list is moiraine and lan, and here at ep 3 I don't exactly have high hopes for the rest of their season based on the original material written for them so far) quote:e: in general this has been a show where the antagonists (ishamael, liandrin, padan fain, uhhhh the whitecloak that dies in s1) have been far more compelling to watch because they play emotions that aren't like, teary-eyed teeth-clenched frustration or anger or despair. everyone on the good guy side but elayne is basically joyless, aside from perrin getting to joke with the other hunters and loial for about 30 seconds before everything goes miserably south in that plotline Also, which Whitecloak died in S1? Edit 1: Turin Turambar posted:They have been clues and mentions of all this, again, but it's easy to forget how for someone new can miss this mention or forget that one from one week to another, or not give enough importance to that other one. Edit 2: vvvvv Grundulum posted:I suspect they are referring to Eamon Valda, who Egwene stabbed in the neck on her way out of the torture tent. DTurtle fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 20:16
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DTurtle posted:Also, which Whitecloak died in S1? I suspect they are referring to Eamon Valda, who Egwene stabbed in the neck on her way out of the torture tent.
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Sep 29, 2023 20:22
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I don't think all that stuff is impossible to do in the time allotted, tbh, but I don't think they're focusing on the right stuff. they spend what feels like a fair amount of time on moiraine and lan in episodes 1 and 2 but it never moves past "she's pushing him away because she feels bad/probably has Plots and Schemes running". when bayle domon showed up I was like "oh hey everyone talks about that guy, fortune prick me it's bayle domon", but then his scene ended up mostly being plot machination and "did you know aes sedai are spooky good at manipulation?" reinforcement, and she and lan just sort of spin their wheels vaguely before ending up at "oh hey, moiraine pushed away lan because she feels bad/has some Plots and Schemes running" similarly, you could absolutely have reinforced the horror of male channeling, but that would've required outing rand as the dragon early in s1 and letting him reflect on it explicitly likely in dialogue w someone else, and they made their choice about how to adapt things and where to spend their time. I've only read book 1 but the sense I get is that they're leaning on the subtext of their writing and the actors performances to carry what the book's narration does. that would be incredibly difficult in any adapting any work that relies this heavily on first person narration, and I'm not sure they've successfully bridged that gap e: re the whitecloaks I understand it as an artifact of adaptation (TEOTW really does just kinda bop all over the place as a travel narrative and set up a lot of stuff I assume is relevant later on) but it really is very weird to spend all this time introducing them with that cool first scene and then as a serious threat with a big feature ep and now it's been six hours of tv runtime and not only has no one mentioned or thought about them but we've entirely supplanted them with a DIFFERENT channeler-hunting threat in the slavers DTurtle posted:My impression is that this is deliberate. Wheel of Time (the books) is known for having mostly very three dimensional characters, and the show is trying to show that with regards to the antagonists. And, spoiler, but Wheel of Time is dark with little sparks of light in between (that are all the more precious and important because of it). i find this interpretation a little hard to credit just because i think if i believed it, i would have to conclude that the creative team behind the show is very silly and making very silly choices and i'm trying to be more charitable than that. while i think they're not always making great decisions about where to focus their attention and i don't agree with all their choices, i prefer to think that they know that protagonists should generally be watchable and interesting and their motivations comprehensible, and are simply trying and not always succeeding. stuff like lan's visit to his adoptive family in s1 is really good! they just need a little more of that for everyone else. it's hard to find space for it in an 8-episode order but i think that kind of thing is generally worth doing. part of the reason the grieving warder ep attracts a lot of discussion is because it's original material that is thoughtful and given time and space, and somehow they just can't find that time for like, 5/7 of their protagonists to this point Valentin fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 20:23
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Not understanding Mat is pretty understandable given that season 1 Mat and Season 2 Mat are entirely different characters. At this point we're probably done fixing the stuff that got messed up by Harris' departure, so they should have more room to develop Finn's Mat.
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Sep 29, 2023 20:31
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Valentin posted:I don't think all that stuff is impossible to do in the time allotted, tbh, but I don't think they're focusing on the right stuff. they spend what feels like a fair amount of time on moiraine and lan in episodes 1 and 2 but it never moves past "she's pushing him away because she feels bad/probably has Plots and Schemes running". As for the Whitecloaks: WAFO (watch and find out). DTurtle fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 20:33
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DTurtle posted:As you are still catching up, I will just point towards the infamous „sad warder“ episode of season 1 and Logain‘s reaction to being gentled and ask you to think about how those things mirror Moiraine and Lan‘s situation after the end of season 1. i mean this is what i'm getting at by talking about where they choose to focus attention lol. books and television are different mediums, and while collating information across viewpoints to achieve a synthesis that gives insight into character nuances can be really fun and satisfying in a book, especially one that plays a lot with limiting your access to information across multiple points of view and narrators, here i'm just like, hm, i would've rather spent the time we spent on logain and the sad warder directly on the main characters who i am going to watch for hours going forward e: and both the sad warder ep and logain's reaction to being gentled don't actually speak very well to moiraine's particular internal conflict as an aes sedai, and one who clearly views herself as uniquely important to the fight against satan. like i get that her internal conflict has multiple dimensions, and that maybe they'll delve into that deeper as i catch up! but in that case i would say, then cut the pointless fight scene and bayle domon and petty arguments about if she's going to come down to dinner, and use that time to go deeper on the characters who are going through poo poo (i'd say egwene, rand, or perrin, since nynaeve is pretty well covered in the first few eps) or to rehabilitate mat. it's not a 23 episode show, they already expect the audience to follow the plot despite long gaps between introducing plot elements and actually leveraging them, and i don't think people who liked moiraine and lan in s1 are actually likely to be entertained by their early season bickering. i know they apparently don't show up much in book 2 but i don't exactly see this doing anything fulfilling or helpful in that respect aside from "giving us reasons to put rosamund pike on screen for 7/8 eps", and i think that kind of decision has kind of a lack of confidence i find interesting (given that the show is e.g. perfectly confident you'll easily follow all umpteen aes sedai introduced) Valentin fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 20:42
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Valentin posted:e: re the whitecloaks I understand it as an artifact of adaptation (TEOTW really does just kinda bop all over the place as a travel narrative and set up a lot of stuff I assume is relevant later on) but it really is very weird to spend all this time introducing them with that cool first scene and then as a serious threat with a big feature ep and now it's been six hours of tv runtime and not only has no one mentioned or thought about them but we've entirely supplanted them with a DIFFERENT channeler-hunting threat in the slavers Perrin just had to deal with them a couple episodes ago
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Sep 29, 2023 21:07
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non book reader opinion time (disclaimer: I did read a couple many many years ago and remember nothing from them) Rand - complete dipshit, how many wrong choices and bad situations do you need to get yourself in before you think "hmm I keep loving up and regardless of what I do me and my friends are getting killed or enslaved" and just start listening to the professionals Moraine - interesting character and has enough depth to keep me interested in her story. Still not quite sure why she absolutely trusts not a single person and could avoid 90% of the poo poo she gets in to by just talking to someone, but I'll figure it out. Nyneave - cannot stand her, no redeeming qualities at all, feels like a DnD character that someone is playing badly with the excuse of "BuT ThAtS wHaT mY cHaRaCtEr WoUlD dOOOOO" Egwene - good character backed by a fantastic actress, hoping her story really develops and doesn't just become someone for Rand to simp over Matt - I like Matt, he's a good person and his character plays off well against Rand's in that they both make the worst decisions but handle it very differently Perrin - I don't hate the character but his story feels like a spin off show and I have no fuckin idea what he's doing or why Lan - no strong feelings either way, he plays the role well and the role fits the show well Liandrin - Girl, if you're going to be black ajah maybe dial back the evil and suspicious nature a bit, I called that poo poo from your first appearance Lanfear - Perfection, when Lanfear is not on screen all the other characters should be asking "where is Lanfear?" Ishamel - Generic creepy bad guy, could be played by Gary Oldman, written OK and acted a bit chewy but otherwise no complaints All in all I'm enjoying the show and look forward to it every week. I will caveat that I'm very easy to please with fantasy stuff and can hoover that poo poo up all day long as long as it's not egregiously bad.
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Sep 29, 2023 21:12
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My main issue with Nynaeve is that 100% of the time looks like she just smelled a particularly rank fart
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Sep 29, 2023 22:41
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I read the books 20 years ago, and forgot 95% of it. Season one was rough, but it gave me hope that it would improve. Season two is going much better, but they seem to be missing major plot points I would have assumed were required for the story to make sense. The biggest issue I see is that there is soooo much lore exposition and internal dialogue, how in the hell can they hope to convey half of it quickly enough to provide the required understanding. I like how they handled the seanchan , they are building up the story there and it has an emotional impact. I hate how they have handled mat. He's been robbed of everything his character had. Sure he's a gambler and a scoundrel, but where's the staff wielding bravado and general chaos he rides? He just seems like he's a bum with no purpose. At least they are doing okay with Min's character. I really liked Lan in the books. Can't stand Lan in the show. Can't really say why, but man he doesn't bring much to the table. Rand seems like a gently caress boi in the show, but it's true to character at least. Moraine is perfect, and I love how cold blooded she is capable of and how it scares even herself. She's way more human in the show than the book. Perrin just seems like he's there to grunt and frown at the camera while being poorly lit. They really butchered our boy Perrin and I hope he gets some better writing. Overall I can't wait for more and I hope the show grows a beard after season two.
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Sep 29, 2023 22:59
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regulargonzalez posted:My main issue with Nynaeve is that 100% of the time looks like she just smelled a particularly rank fart Look, Elayne is a princess she's used to eating stuff like parrot beaks or monkey glands or whatever. All this normal food is gonna cause some gastric distress.
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Sep 29, 2023 22:59
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regulargonzalez posted:My main issue with Nynaeve is that 100% of the time looks like she just smelled a particularly rank fart It's a medieval post-apocalyptic fantasy world. Everyone smells like poo poo. Nynaeve is just the only one willing to express her disgust at it all.
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Sep 29, 2023 23:55
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:
At this point I don't think the show loses anything if they just stop showing Perrin and Mat.
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Sep 30, 2023 00:21
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AceClown posted:Lanfear - Perfection, when Lanfear is not on screen all the other characters should be asking "where is Lanfear?" To always be thinking "where is Lanfear?" is probably a useful safety tip in this world anyway.
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Sep 30, 2023 00:26
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withak posted:To always be thinking "where is Lanfear?" is probably a useful safety tip in this world anyway. Life was so much simpler when the answer to that question was "stuck in a hole" for the last 5,000 years.
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Sep 30, 2023 00:32
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loudog999 posted:Nyneave, Egwene, and Elayne are the best part of the show for me and the fact that any scene with Rand has the focus off them is my main beef with him so far. Elayne is perfect and I cannot say enough about how Ceara Coveney is nailing the naive smugness of being a princess while still managing to be likeable
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Sep 30, 2023 00:39
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nine-gear crow posted:Life was so much simpler when the answer to that question was "stuck in a hole" for the last 5,000 years. If Lews had got stuck in a hole none of this would have ever been a problem
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Sep 30, 2023 00:39
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Rarity posted:If Lews had got stuck in a hole none of this would have ever been a problem When Lews was sealing the Forsaken the AoL Amyrlin should have been like "THAT INCLUDES YOU TOO, rear end in a top hat!" and shoved his rear end in a hole too.
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Sep 30, 2023 00:55
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nine-gear crow posted:"THAT INCLUDES YOU TOO, rear end in a top hat!" Have we seen that on-screen as of season 2? If not, it probably merits discussion over in the TBB thread.
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Sep 30, 2023 01:17
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Ishamael’s actor is pretty awesome at the benevolent evil dude. I was wondering, have we seen him actually harm anyone on camera? When that girl was hugging the trolloc I kept waiting for the inevitable bad outcome and it didn’t happen! That was cute and nice! Getting a bit of his backstory and you could probably see a way for him to justify all sorts of evil doings but I’m not sure if we’ve really seen it.
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Sep 30, 2023 01:25
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Phenotype posted:He's just a farmboy who realized he was in way over his head and tried to hide himself away so he wouldn't hurt anyone -- it's a pretty generic start for a fantasy protagonist, but he's just now starting to try to take initiative for himself so it feels like he'll get more time to develop a personality soon? we're 15 episodes in!
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Sep 30, 2023 01:27
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Grundulum posted:Have we seen that on-screen as of season 2? If not, it probably merits discussion over in the TBB thread. Lews Therin and the Tamyrlin's meeting was the cold open for S1E8 iirc
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Sep 30, 2023 01:32
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NeurosisHead posted:Lews Therin and the Tamyrlin's meeting was the cold open for S1E8 iirc And it's been mentioned at least once that Lews and the extinct male Aes Sedai sealed the Forsaken.
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Sep 30, 2023 01:45
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