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lol does anyone here find it impossible to see a downside to more/easier/less-tested unemployment benefits or ubi? or is 100% upsides never mind the ever present threat of landlords sucking up every extra dollar (this needs to be addressed, including aggressive restrictions that prevent landlords from having heads)
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Sep 29, 2023 21:55
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A ubi is like the end step after wrestling control from capital and disposing of the landlords though. If you brought in a ubi now it would just make rents and everything else proportionally more expensive. Same as just increasing benefits and reducing the barriers to them - whatever you do you're just subsidizing landlords.
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Sep 29, 2023 22:01
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Well I guess if there was a UBI, food and electricity and petrol and rent would all rise to absorb the extra money slushing around, which is bad but its all relative, tax would have to rise to compensate, and that couldn't be hoarded so it would make its way back to the general population
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Sep 29, 2023 22:07
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echinopsis posted:lol No policy is perfect but the benefits (lol) greatly outweigh the costs. You can't increase sanctions or freeze/lower benefits without hurting people who "legitimately" (in whatever sense you want to interpret that) rely on them. The benefits of higher benefits (lol) are for everyone too, not just for people getting money from the government. Higher benefits exert upward pressure on wages and lead to better working conditions and more productive businesses. That's because employers have to offer higher wages to attract people, people are able to spend longer looking for work rather than accepting a less desirable job, and the kind of businesses that are profitable in that environment have to be more productive. It has a positive structural impact on the economy. Also just in general people should be guaranteed survival regardless of how much of a selfish oval office they are, otherwise what the gently caress is the point of society. Benefits need to at least cover that even if someone's perfectly capable of work.
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Sep 29, 2023 22:45
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echinopsis posted:does that argument stack up in traditional subsistence cultures? probably not, for the majority of abled bodied people at least echinopsis posted:if someone could imagine a welfare state say, let’s say unemployment benefit paid more than minimum wage and you didn’t have to qualify you just got if you asked the argument is simply that people have a right to exist, or they don't. if you agree that people have a right to exist then you must agree that they are entitled to the means of existence - as soon as you agree that some or some kinds of people are not entitled to the means of existence then you have agreed that people do not have a basic right to exist; that it can be restricted in order to control them and compel their labour, and are simply negotiating the price of purchasing existence from capital.
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Sep 29, 2023 23:03
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interesting points. interesting theories
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Sep 29, 2023 23:14
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Read a book man
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Sep 29, 2023 23:18
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Ghostlight posted:i don't really care whether it does because i don't and will never live in one, nor do i advocate doing so. I don't want to provide the means of existence to Tony down the road though, he's a wanker
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Sep 29, 2023 23:35
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bike tory posted:The benefits of higher benefits (lol) are for everyone too, not just for people getting money from the government. Higher benefits exert upward pressure on wages and lead to better working conditions and more productive businesses. That's because employers have to offer higher wages to attract people, people are able to spend longer looking for work rather than accepting a less desirable job, and the kind of businesses that are profitable in that environment have to be more productive. It has a positive structural impact on the economy. Additionally, with a UBI more people will try starting their own business, as they now have the security of the UBI so they can afford to take the risk.
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Sep 29, 2023 23:43
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Ghostlight posted:
Ghostlight posted:if all labour had its basic needs met regardless then it would need to be coerced into the market by employers offering fair wages commensurate with the economic value of that labour for society, rather than paying labour as little as possible because the alternative to participating in the market is the deprivation of life. this would be good, of course bike tory posted:
idk if I agree here. some people have certainly lost their right for the rest of society to support them if they chose not to provide for themselves. maybe it’s not many (i’m thinking mega pedo and terrorist killing spree) “what’s the point of society if we’re not willing to let murderers live without any effort toward providing for themselves?”
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Sep 29, 2023 23:43
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sebmojo posted:I don't want to provide the means of existence to Tony down the road though, he's a wanker Embrace solipsism. The upside is that Tony doesn't require the means of existence, downside is he isn't a wanker.
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Sep 29, 2023 23:44
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Allowing banks and supermarket companies to accrue record profits in a massive cost of living crisis is a deliberate political choice, and it's one that no government that's going to be elected will go against. It's a massively undemocratic choice too, if you gave people the option, they would say gently caress the banks profits. All the arguing over welfare is just ignoring the elephant in the room because it's something people have no real choice over.
Your Brain on Hugs fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 23:46
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Slavvy posted:Read a book man here’s a thing : just coz someone doesn’t agree with someone else’s ideas of how a welfare state should run doesn’t inherently mean they’re wrong. it’s entirely possible some people can be exposed to the same ideas and information and come away with a different conclusion. earlier I was trying to propose an unrealistic scenario with welfare so outrageous that there simply was no incentive for anyone to work, no builders making housing or farmers making food, and society grinds to a halt. if it’s possible to imagine this scenario (and I suspect some people can’t do it), then how far does someone “turn back the dial” until it is functioning? and different people will have different ideas of where is the ideal balance is it just a case that the higher you leave the dial the more virtuous you are? anyone willing to turn the dial lower than you is simply mis or under informed or lacks empathy
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Sep 29, 2023 23:50
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:Allowing banks and supermarket companies to accrue record profits in a massive cost of moving crisis is a deliberate political choice I hate it MPs should not be allowed to own multiple properties either
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Sep 29, 2023 23:52
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echinopsis posted:I do think people do, but this false dichotomy. whether or not you think a person has the right to live, having a right to the means of existence as you say, it’s not like god just delivers food and housing and we’re trying to claim some should get it and some shouldn’t we don't have to wait for divine intervention, we can do it any time we choose to.
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Sep 30, 2023 00:04
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sebmojo posted:I don't want to provide the means of existence to Tony down the road though, he's a wanker Every Tony I've ever met is a complete rear end in a top hat
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Sep 30, 2023 01:29
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echinopsis posted:here’s a thing : just coz someone doesn’t agree with someone else’s ideas of how a welfare state should run doesn’t inherently mean they’re wrong. society wouldn't grind to a halt in that scenario, growth would stop happening ie. 9 out of 10 farmers in NZ could shut up shop and we could still feed the country El Pollo Blanco fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Sep 30, 2023 |
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Sep 30, 2023 01:43
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Every Tony I've ever met is a complete rear end in a top hat yeah what's up with that
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Sep 30, 2023 02:01
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Yeah wtf just because peoples basic needs are met doesn't mean they won't do anything, that they'll just stop moving and stare at the wall until its food time. My partner gardens, for free, in her spare time, for no financial incentive, because she likes it. People climb mountains and they don't have to. People make music without ever making it big. Imagine what we could do if instead of an hour a day spare time or 8 if it's the weekend, if we could spend all our time on hobbies? Yes, I'd clean the loving toilets at the park down the road so my kid can poo poo in cleanliness. I'd totally spend a few years fixing tractors for farmers because that's an interesting pursuit. Anything that needs done will have people do it.
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Sep 30, 2023 02:14
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echinopsis posted:
Right but you're talking about serious crimes here. And if they're in that situation they should be in the criminal justice system and the way things currently are, more money is spent on those serious criminals keeping them imprisoned.
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Sep 30, 2023 02:47
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klen dool posted:
but why do you think the economy could continue functioning if people weren’t out there grinding? capitalism steals value from labour, but this value is not meaningless. even if most of the work itself that people do is meaningless, the value generated at the expense of their labour is still very real. and even if most gets funnelled upstairs, it still needs to be there capitalism is a huge grinding machine that generates value, for better or for worse, but that value absolutely has meant most of us live comfortable lives, even if things have been a poo poo lately. are you trying to say we could somehow turn this machine off, but things would still be fine? wouldn’t there be huge cuts to the levels of comfort and convenience that we are used to? and I don’t think the arguments stands, for example, that if we taxed the rich enough (or some wealth redistribution) then we could pay for this, but it’s a zero sum game so while the rich lose we win but the machine still works?? don’t get me wrong, I certainly have the same desires for the end goals, I just don’t know if they’re possible
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Sep 30, 2023 03:54
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echinopsis posted:but why do you think the economy could continue functioning if people weren’t out there grinding? If wealth was distributed even marginally more equally and we got rid of a lot of the useless jobs, people could be working 10 hours a week and still have a good quality of life, just not at the ridiculous levels of waste and decadence that say the US middle class live at. The fact you think that wouldn't be possible just shows how effective the propaganda that keeps the hierarchy in place is.
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Sep 30, 2023 04:59
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One thing is that I moved far away from family on the promise (by capitalism) that they are only a cheap flight away and where I moved to is where the jobs are. Everything would be different and better in the future if money and competition wasn't the be all end all. I'd live much closer to family, I'd have 20 jobs. Like it wouldn't be this life but with no money.
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Sep 30, 2023 05:14
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echinopsis posted:but why do you think the economy could continue functioning if people weren’t out there grinding? We could cut the arms and legs and most of the torso off the machine and there would still be plenty of resources left for everyone on the planet* ** *** Basically what this goon said: Your Brain on Hugs posted:If wealth was distributed even marginally more equally and we got rid of a lot of the useless jobs, people could be working 10 hours a week and still have a good quality of life, just not at the ridiculous levels of waste and decadence that say the US middle class live at. The fact you think that wouldn't be possible just shows how effective the propaganda that keeps the hierarchy in place is. * because think about the hectobillionaires that still shamefully have their heads attached to their bodies, and all their yachts and estates and cars and whatnot -- all those resources rightly belong to the people who did the work producing the value, not to the dude who inherited a four-mile head start from his ancestors ** "enough for everyone" except said billionaires, because their heads will be detached from their bodies *** and this is also why everyone who says "the world has too many people, we need to depopulate" are either woefully misinformed or are talking about "you know, those people"
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Sep 30, 2023 06:21
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good to keep discussions like this grounded in reality rather than hypotheticals imo. Sure there's probably a point at which it would be better to reform other parts of the economy instead of increasing benefits further, but that's not on the table and doesn't really bear consideration because it's so far from what anyone is offering. Here's the reality of National's benefit slow down: https://twitter.com/ClintVSmith/status/1707604459126501841 When I think about which section of society can afford to subsidise tax cuts for people in paid work, tax rebates on utes, the un-ring fencing of tax deductibility on rental properties, etc etc... It isn't these people.
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Sep 30, 2023 06:43
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:working 10 hours a week and still have a good quality of life, I am a health care worker. our sector is depressingly and terrifyingly understaffed so what are your thoughts on all nurses and doctors and everyone else switching to 1/4 of their current output??
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Sep 30, 2023 06:52
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Hire more, pay them way better and cut their hours.
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Sep 30, 2023 07:01
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Yeah, the health care worker shortage is a problem that exists and manifested in the current system. If we change to a system that made everything better but left the health care system the same, we'd have made it no worse.
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Sep 30, 2023 07:09
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Every Tony I've ever met is a complete rear end in a top hat i'm having a think about this and yeah
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Sep 30, 2023 07:32
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brb starting the "ubi for everyone who isn't called tony" party
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Sep 30, 2023 07:35
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echinopsis posted:I am a health care worker. our sector is depressingly and terrifyingly understaffed Can you please at least have a bit of a think about the current causes of that precise situation and the factors that go into it before you make flippant, bad takes like that?
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Sep 30, 2023 07:36
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Hire more, pay them way better and cut their hours. oh yeah nice idea. where are these doctors coming from exactly. never mind they take 10-15 years to make it there ? like if the number of people in society doesn’t change now we need 4 x as many doctors and nurses as before like do you actually believe that?? that you could just do that?? klen dool posted:Yeah, the health care worker shortage is a problem that exists and manifested in the current system. If we change to a system that made everything better but left the health care system the same, we'd have made it no worse. is the health care sector the only part of society that relies on highly educated and experienced workers working full time? gently caress health care workers then I guess people don’t like feeling like they’re working hard and others don’t have to, that is not a problem to be hand waved away. imagine saying to doctors that they have to work full time but others don’t Weatherman posted:Can you please at least have a bit of a think about the current causes of that precise situation and the factors that go into it before you make flippant, bad takes like that? if people are making such fucken pie in the sky claims that we could create a utopia by allowing people to work 1/4 of what they do now, they have to answer for the implications of that the work people do matters. someone’s labour isn’t just a way to create value and wealth for the bourgeois, but the actual stuff they’re doing matters.
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Sep 30, 2023 08:02
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Lol I don't give a gently caress if other people work less than me. Some people do! I have a few doctors as friends, who all work twice - three times - as much as me and I don't think they resent me for merely working 32 hours a week writing software. That's a ludicrous position to take. Edit: not to mention that just because my paid work ends, doesn't mean I stop working. I just do unpaid work. Many people do. Many people ONLY do unpaid work and work a shitload more than me
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Sep 30, 2023 08:24
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klen dool posted:Lol I don't give a gently caress if other people work less than me. Some people do! I have a few doctors as friends, who all work twice - three times - as much as me and I don't think they resent me for merely working 32 hours a week writing software. That's a ludicrous position to take. people don’t resent others who work less when the they get paid or whatever accordingly. people resent it when they work for money and then someone else doesn’t work but also gets money if you can survive working 32 hours a week in this economy you’re so extremely fuckin privileged, so so few people can do that. having a job that is valuable enough to the economy that you can work less and still be fine is something everyone wishes they could have. is this even possible though? the kinds of solutions people are promoting are all nice ideas and I wish we could make them happen, but they are so far away, in so many ways. society is not and I suspect never ever will be ready to be a socialist utopia where somehow so much excess value is created that people only have to work 1/4 or what they do now klen dool posted:
unpaid work matters of course, but it’s not the mechanism that has pulled huge swathes of the world out of poverty
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Sep 30, 2023 08:38
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echinopsis posted:I am a health care worker. our sector is depressingly and terrifyingly understaffed You would simply work more because you chose to 
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Sep 30, 2023 08:46
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echinopsis posted:people don’t resent others who work less when the they get paid or whatever accordingly. people resent it when they work for money and then someone else doesn’t work but also gets money Read a goddamn book holy poo poo
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Sep 30, 2023 08:47
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please educate me about who to vote for so as to improve society somewhat no , not like that
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Sep 30, 2023 08:52
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echinopsis posted:if you can survive working 32 hours a week in this economy you’re so extremely fuckin privileged, so so few people can do that. if being single and childless makes me extremely fuckin privileged then i guess i am but tbh i'd rather have kids and be struggling 
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Sep 30, 2023 08:53
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echinopsis posted:the mechanism that has pulled huge swathes of the world out of poverty The western world, you mean. Capitalism did the western world just fine by loving over generations and generations of the rest of the world. Slavvy posted:Read a goddamn book holy poo poo
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Sep 30, 2023 08:56
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the mechanism that has pulled huge swathes of the world out of poverty is maoism brother
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Sep 30, 2023 09:01
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