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Anonymous Zebra posted:That's where I think you first start hearing about there being no money, no illness, and no strife. Apparently healthcare is good enough that people don't even get headaches, much less have mental health issues, or serious congenital diseases. I'm pretty sure there's a dude in TNG who's noticeably disabled, even so.
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Sep 30, 2023 09:31
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Name Change posted:The earliest I know of money being mentioned as emphatically Not a Thing is Star Trek IV. TOS has lots of mentions of money and smuggling. Since there are some scarce things I figure they are allocated on a lottery or application system. If Picard had abandoned the vineyards they might have torn them down, or might have found someone else interested in running a traditional hewmon French winery. Otherwise, money is just not used in one's daily life in Federation/human areas. There probably is some kind of backroom accounting but it could just as easily use energy expenditure or something. spectralent posted:I'm pretty sure there's a dude in TNG who's noticeably disabled, even so. Unless you mean Worf in that one episode. Whoops!
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Sep 30, 2023 09:40
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Nessus posted:There's a DS9 episode with a chick in a wheelchair, but she isn't disabled-as-such, she's from a low gravity planet and DS9's old lovely Cardassian gravity plates interfere with her daily life. The fact that she is in fact normal for her species and simply requires an assistive device if she's sharing space with humans is promptly forgotten. I meant LaForge in TNG! He's blind, congenitally unless I'm mistaken, so there's still some serious congenital illness.
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Sep 30, 2023 09:45
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Kestral posted:Or, you could do what every Star Trek writer from DS9 onward has utterly refused to do because they're all cynicism-poisoned, and embrace the concept of a post-scarcity utopia in a way that uses the collaborative nature of an RPG group to come up with an interpretation that makes sense for everyone at the table. One episode of Lower Decks is literally about a character moving from department to department in an attempt to find a place that they fit. Whenever they move departments, their commanding officer is like "drat, sorry to see you go but Starfleet is totally about finding where you belong!" Another is the captain being arrested for crimes she didn't commit, which is resolved when it turns out the Federation justice system is actually good and fair and it almost immediately discovered she was being framed, it's just that no-one told the low-ranking main characters so they undertook some harebraned schemes to get proof in the meantime. It's got irony in the sense that characters are aware of how goofy some of the stuff in Trek is, but there's no cynicism. Everyone is super pumped about the Federation and its utopian ideals. Also yes it would make an extremely good RPG, because "slightly goofy slackers having to deal with serious problems" is what a lot of RPGs end up as anyway. Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Sep 30, 2023 |
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Sep 30, 2023 12:44
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IIRC, the original Star Trek writer's guide basically said not to tell stories about Earth, just assume that all of today's social and economic problems have been solved but don't dwell on how since, a, that's not what the show's about and b, it's somewhat beyond the remit of a 45-minute tv episode to come up with solutions to all the world's problems.
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Sep 30, 2023 14:09
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:One episode of Lower Decks is literally about a character moving from department to department in an attempt to find a place that they fit. Whenever they move departments, their commanding officer is like "drat, sorry to see you go but Starfleet is totally about finding where you belong!" Another is the captain being arrested for crimes she didn't commit, which is resolved when it turns out the Federation justice system is actually good and fair and it almost immediately discovered she was being framed, it's just that no-one told the low-ranking main characters so they undertook some harebraned schemes to get proof in the meantime. Yeah I get that Lower Decks probably makes people think "oh this is the Star Trek Rick and Morty" based on the art style, but of all the modern Trek incarnations I would actually say it's the least cynical and ironic, and might be the best Trek we've had in a long time. Picard is telling stories about Romulan sleeper agents doing space 9/11 on the Federation because they hate AIs and Strange New Worlds has recast the Gorn as literally the xenomorphs from aliens with sincere speeches from crew members about how Some Aliens Just Need Killing, meanwhile Lower Decks is the only one that seems to be actually committed to the idea of a Star Trek that embraces Star Trek for what it is. It just also happens to be a comedy about how being in Starfleet is a really fuckin weird job sometimes.
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Sep 30, 2023 15:39
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spectralent posted:I meant LaForge in TNG! He's blind, congenitally unless I'm mistaken, so there's still some serious congenital illness. Which leads in turn to an interesting question: With the technology that the Federation has access to they can obviously accommodate Geordi's blindness, either through his VISOR, the cloned/grown eyes that someone offers him at one point, or his cybereyes in the movies. And it doesn't affect his life either professionally or socially (his dating life is terrible for entirely different reasons). Does it still count as a disability? I wear glasses and contact lenses. Without them I'm juuust shy of legally blind and it would absolutely affect by professional and social life negatively. But as a society we've accepted and normalized that accommodation. Glasses and contacts are just a thing that some people have. I don't consider my piss-poor vision a disability but it wasn't that long ago that it absolutely would be. I've seen arguments from disability advocates that in a better society, things that are considered disabilities now (like blindness, deafness, wheelchair usage, etc) would not be due to social acceptance and built-in accommodations. To bring this back around to TG topics: I have always appreciated systems that have the capability to portray or use something that might be considered a disability or disadvantage with more nuance. What I've heard about Pendragon comes to mind: your PC can be a woman but until and unless you take the social disadvantage "woman" it doesn't affect play*. In FATE an aspect that is an important part of a character can be compelled or invoked situationally - Geordi's blindness can be compelled if his VISOR malfunctions or invoked if he gets to see something other people can't. In 13th Age it'd be his One Unique Thing but I don't know the system so I don't know how it's adjudicated. What are some other good ways games approach the issue without just going "One Arm (+15 CP)"? *operating off hearsay in this, so correct me where I err.
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Sep 30, 2023 16:12
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PoontifexMacksimus posted:It is very much an issue across scifi to this day, people were cheering on the bad guys in Avatar just because they were human, and human chauvinism is a big reason for people vouching for the Stat Wars Empire. Yeah, that definitely tracks and is a thing I've seen across media. What's even weirder to me is when this takes the form of people in ttrpg spaces become low-key resentful of players who don't pick the more straightforward, "default" options, like D&D players sneering at people who play Dragonborns and Tieflings as making "special Snowflake" characters. I can understand the psychology of the player who just always goes to the default option, but I can't understand the psychology of the player who insists everyone should go to the default option. I remember an argument that sometimes showed up in the stuff posted to the old grognards.txt threads was people complaining that too many non-human characters in a party led to "Mos Eisley Cantina Syndrome" and it was such a weird thing to read because the Mos Eisley Cantina was cool as poo poo and I can't understand how someone could view a game feeling like that is a bad thing...
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Sep 30, 2023 16:15
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Nessus posted:There's a DS9 episode with a chick in a wheelchair, but she isn't disabled-as-such, she's from a low gravity planet and DS9's old lovely Cardassian gravity plates interfere with her daily life. The fact that she is in fact normal for her species and simply requires an assistive device if she's sharing space with humans is promptly forgotten. Er, not particularly forgotten, given literally the entire premise of the episode is that she could get medical treatment to be able to function in Earth-equivalent gravity but would no longer be able to function as she does in her homeworld's environment, and ends up deciding against it. Also missing that the series does take on the idea of disability way more explicitly with Bashir's revelation that he was genetically augmented as a child- hella illegal in the Federation (at least for humans, pretty clearly thanks to lingering trauma from the Eugenics Wars) except for cases of severe disability or illness, and apparently he was just above the threshold to qualify. I find the episodes focusing on that hit or miss at best, but it's clearly at least trying to engage with it, and gives the Federation some social issues that do have actual nuance are also safely within the remit of sci-fi while having some very applicable themes to the modern day. (and if anything aged all too well, from the experiences of autistic people just to start with)
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Sep 30, 2023 16:22
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Which leads in turn to an interesting question: With the technology that the Federation has access to they can obviously accommodate Geordi's blindness, either through his VISOR, the cloned/grown eyes that someone offers him at one point, or his cybereyes in the movies. And it doesn't affect his life either professionally or socially (his dating life is terrible for entirely different reasons). I think this is a question that's different for the in-universe setting and the TV show in the real world. In universe, he's arguably not disabled - his accomodations appear very routine in much the same way glasses are today and nobody thinks it's being awkward or invasive. But, in the real world, we recognise that he's blind, and blind people are disabled, and that by including a blind person who isn't affected by that at all, we're providing an aspirational character to (at least some) blind people. KingKalamari posted:I remember an argument that sometimes showed up in the stuff posted to the old grognards.txt threads was people complaining that too many non-human characters in a party led to "Mos Eisley Cantina Syndrome" and it was such a weird thing to read because the Mos Eisley Cantina was cool as poo poo and I can't understand how someone could view a game feeling like that is a bad thing... I'm always sad whenever I've run a star wars game nobody wants to play an alien or a droid 
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Sep 30, 2023 16:27
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KingKalamari posted:Yeah, that definitely tracks and is a thing I've seen across media. What's even weirder to me is when this takes the form of people in ttrpg spaces become low-key resentful of players who don't pick the more straightforward, "default" options, like D&D players sneering at people who play Dragonborns and Tieflings as making "special Snowflake" characters. I can understand the psychology of the player who just always goes to the default option, but I can't understand the psychology of the player who insists everyone should go to the default option.
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Sep 30, 2023 16:33
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah I get that Lower Decks probably makes people think "oh this is the Star Trek Rick and Morty" based on the art style, but of all the modern Trek incarnations I would actually say it's the least cynical and ironic, and might be the best Trek we've had in a long time. Picard is telling stories about Romulan sleeper agents doing space 9/11 on the Federation because they hate AIs and Strange New Worlds has recast the Gorn as literally the xenomorphs from aliens with sincere speeches from crew members about how Some Aliens Just Need Killing, meanwhile Lower Decks is the only one that seems to be actually committed to the idea of a Star Trek that embraces Star Trek for what it is. It just also happens to be a comedy about how being in Starfleet is a really fuckin weird job sometimes. In fact if one were to start watching it, and I recommend this, then start on the third episode or so of season one. The first two episodes genuinely do feel like Star Trek Rick and Morty and the show suffers for it but it's like by the third episode they've gotten it all out of their system and are just doing good funny Star Trek cartoons.
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Sep 30, 2023 16:35
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FMguru posted:It's just a visit from our old friend Muh Immersion. If the world is 99% unexceptional humans and elves and dwarves, what are the odds that five of the weirdest, most exotic and fantastic humanoids (a demonkin, a sentient shadow, an amnesiac robot that wandered away from a crashed spaceship, a cloud giant who was cursed by a permanent shrink spell, and a rainbow dragonborn) would just stumble into each other and decide to form an adventuring party to go fight giant rats in a temple basement somewhere? It just totally breaks Muh Immersion! There is also the old grog idea that starting characters are supposed to be dull and undistinguished and only become distinguished through play (zero-to-hero). The thing that fucks with this is that IRL the weirdest people are exactly the kinds of people who'd become adventurers. It's why IRL pirates and cowboys were usually weirdos and not statistically average selections of the world population.
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Sep 30, 2023 16:42
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KingKalamari posted:I remember an argument that sometimes showed up in the stuff posted to the old grognards.txt threads was people complaining that too many non-human characters in a party led to "Mos Eisley Cantina Syndrome" and it was such a weird thing to read because the Mos Eisley Cantina was cool as poo poo and I can't understand how someone could view a game feeling like that is a bad thing... It’s not a bad thing on its own, but I can understand how a fantasy setting with a lot of playable nonhuman characters would not appeal to someone who’s preferred flavor of fantasy would be premodern mythology, fairy and folktales. In those tales, the focus is on humans exploring the space between the known and the unknown. Adventurers do what they do because the world around them is largely uncharted and Here Be Monsters beyond the borders of the kingdom. Even elves and dwarves are capricious, immortal beings who live in ways far beyond human context. In a medieval fairy tale, a Dragonborn would be a unique being that represented the ultimate hybrid of the familiar with the strange and terrifying. A tiefling would be the product of a forbidden union with dark powers that few would speak of, for fear of attracting their gaze (in some versions Arthurian legend, Merlin would qualify as a tiefling). It is far harder to create that sense of mystery and the fantastic if The Minotaur goes from “a misbegotten child of a god roaming a terrible labyrinth” to “the guy who tends bar.” If creatures of myth live extensively among humans and mimic human culture, then they’re really just humans in funny costumes. I feel the same about too much ubiquitous magic in a setting. If magic is too common, reliable, and safe to use, it just becomes another appliance. But then again, if you’re trying to catch the vibe of premodern fantasy fiction, D&D is probably not the game you will want to play.
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Sep 30, 2023 16:44
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spectralent posted:The thing that fucks with this is that IRL the weirdest people are exactly the kinds of people who'd become adventurers. It's why IRL pirates and cowboys were usually weirdos and not statistically average selections of the world population. Sure, but they were weird and still human. They were weird because of their worldview or actions, or because they came from a culture outside of the norm. Conversely, I’ve met more that one player who refuses to play human characters because they think “humans are boring”, and I find that mindboggling considering the incredible variety of cultures, phenotypes, ideas, and philosophies created by humanity on Earth alone. Human shouldn’t always have to mean “generic white guy.”
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Sep 30, 2023 16:48
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Gatto Grigio posted:Sure, but they were weird and still human. They were weird because of their worldview or actions, or because they came from a culture outside of the norm. Yeah, but Tieflings aren't real. If they were there would be tiefling pirates, which... is basically what adventurers are. I can be sympathetic to the idea you want to have a game about humans heading out into the mysterious places of the world, but, yeah, that game isn't D&D. Though, the racial class thing might well make some sense if you wanted that; giving up the benefits of a class to get to be something inhuman so there's a soft limit on them.
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Sep 30, 2023 16:56
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My drive to play a human is inversely proportional to the number of nonhumans in the party. Being the Token Human in those situations amuses me, and there are a fair few games/settings where having a human along makes things easier on the party just because the setting's broader society is very human-centric and even chauvinistic, like Star Wars. But a random mess of nonhuman misfits is also a very fun party because, yeah, you're already a goddamn bunch of weirdos and being a bird-person is a cooler form of weirdo to me than being someone with the superpower of fitting in better. You also get neat weird statistical clustering with groups in the real world, so why the hell not. I keep falling into groups with relatively high incidences of other LGBT+ people despite not intentionally seeking that out, there just seems to be some other underlying nonobvious cause. Go all in on the odd people out finding each other.
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Sep 30, 2023 17:14
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Dawgstar posted:In fact if one were to start watching it, and I recommend this, then start on the third episode or so of season one. The first two episodes genuinely do feel like Star Trek Rick and Morty and the show suffers for it but it's like by the third episode they've gotten it all out of their system and are just doing good funny Star Trek cartoons. This was my experience except i stopped after two. Good to hear they quit being lovely after I put it down.
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Sep 30, 2023 17:16
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Gatto Grigio posted:Sure, but they were weird and still human. They were weird because of their worldview or actions, or because they came from a culture outside of the norm. Like I'll obviously play and have just as much fun playing human characters in systems and settings about a bunch of humans off humaning around a distinctly human unfriendly environment, or if it's a setting where the humans are uniquely interesting in some way. But why would I want to play a character that I could, realistically, drop into pretty much any other RPG after playing a little bit of mad libs with the placenames instead of taking the much more limited opportunity to play a friendly cactus? If "Sapient hive mind of spiders from a tribe who build their skins from hollowed out giant ant carapaces" is a potential backstory for a human character then you are taking pretty heavy liberties with the phrase "phenotype" e: disposablewords posted:My drive to play a human is inversely proportional to the number of nonhumans in the party. Being the Token Human in those situations amuses me, and there are a fair few games/settings where having a human along makes things easier on the party just because the setting's broader society is very human-centric and even chauvinistic, like Star Wars. But a random mess of nonhuman misfits is also a very fun party because, yeah, you're already a goddamn bunch of weirdos and being a bird-person is a cooler form of weirdo to me than being someone with the superpower of fitting in better. Splicer fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Sep 30, 2023 |
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Sep 30, 2023 18:26
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I don't see why people want to play characters with blue eyes or green eyes! Are there seriously any stories you can't tell playing a brown-eyed character?
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Sep 30, 2023 19:01
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El Fideo posted:I don't see why people want to play characters with blue eyes or green eyes! Are there seriously any stories you can't tell playing a brown-eyed character? metal gear solid
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Sep 30, 2023 19:39
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spectralent posted:I think this is a question that's different for the in-universe setting and the TV show in the real world. In universe, he's arguably not disabled - his accomodations appear very routine in much the same way glasses are today and nobody thinks it's being awkward or invasive. But, in the real world, we recognise that he's blind, and blind people are disabled, and that by including a blind person who isn't affected by that at all, we're providing an aspirational character to (at least some) blind people. Geordi's refusal of a transplant or surgery to fix his eyes is the same as someone getting laser corrective surgery today. (Assuming today's version could totally restore your vision). Except his glasses have all sorts of neat bonus things. I wouldn't get corrective eye surgery if my glasses gave my zoom, infrared, and dark sight.
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Sep 30, 2023 20:33
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Ravus Ursus posted:Geordi's refusal of a transplant or surgery to fix his eyes is the same as someone getting laser corrective surgery today. (Assuming today's version could totally restore your vision). Except his glasses have all sorts of neat bonus things. I wouldn't get corrective eye surgery if my glasses gave my zoom, infrared, and dark sight. I don't like the thing where they give special powers to the disabled person to show it is wrong to discriminate against them. The obvious implication is that is okay to discriminate them if they don't have special powers. Deviation from the norm will be punished unless it is exploitable. Also they could just bring a gadget to do the things his visor does if their uniforms had pockets to carry it.
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Sep 30, 2023 20:52
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That's a good point and absolutely devalue the normalization of his blindness. If anything, it begs the question of why more people aren't opting into the super sight he's got as a result. But I'm not blind so my weigh in on this ends with 'hell man, I dunno. Shits sucks and it should be better.'
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Sep 30, 2023 21:06
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I always wondered why everyone else didn't just wear visors too, surely they can also broadcast in the regular visible spectrum if you can perceive it and why not pile on the other vision modes just in case?
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Sep 30, 2023 21:23
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Wasn't it established that Geordi's augmented vision is limited in a lot of ways? Like instead of seeing the beauty in a sunset, he gets a Terminator-style readout that the planet has rotated such that a star is going beneath the horizon. I suspect that coincided with when "differently abled" was going around, but it was decades ago. E: Geordi definitely had some serious brain surgery to interface with his visor. moths fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Sep 30, 2023 |
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Sep 30, 2023 21:32
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They apparently established pretty early on that the visor is overwhelming and even for a familiar user like LaForge, it's causes pain. And most measures to dull the pain will impact its effectiveness. When you can have the same capabilities in a little pocket gizmo, working through constant migraines sounds less appealing.
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Sep 30, 2023 21:34
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theironjef posted:I always wondered why everyone else didn't just wear visors too, surely they can also broadcast in the regular visible spectrum if you can perceive it and why not pile on the other vision modes just in case? quote:To Human eyes with good vision, the images relayed through the VISOR could seem disorienting and unfamiliar. (TNG: "Heart of Glory", "The Enemy", "The Mind's Eye") I always assumed Earth was united under one government in Star Trek because I was never enough into it to watch most of the shows but apparently Geordi was born in Somalia in the "African Confederation" which the wiki says was a political entity. 
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Sep 30, 2023 21:37
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Also yes it would make an extremely good RPG, because "slightly goofy slackers having to deal with serious problems" is what a lot of RPGs end up as anyway. Walked past this in my FLGS the other day, no idea if it's good.
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Sep 30, 2023 21:41
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The STA stuff has been generally well regarded and the solo stuff appears to be better than average? The biggest complaint I've seen is that it tries to stick very tightly to an episode structure of problem, false solution, complications, solution?, twist, resolution, that the series does. But I suppose there's nothing stopping you from going crazy. It does also build a system to allow you to pilot any character on the fly so you're not trying to explain why the Chief Engineer is going along to a mediation between 2 political factions. You just grab a red shirt, star them up and get going. And when there's an engineer episode the other players roll up some red shirts until you've got yourself an entire crew of staff. I think that's why the solo bit is so well received. You can make your own character or you can effectively play an entire crew through scenarios. I'm a lot of way the identity people latch into is a crew or station rather than specific roles or people.
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Sep 30, 2023 21:50
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spectralent posted:I'm always sad whenever I've run a star wars game nobody wants to play an alien or a droid Droids in Star Wars are an entire can of worms involving slavery that I'd need a discussion with the GM before playing. Dawgstar posted:In fact if one were to start watching it, and I recommend this, then start on the third episode or so of season one. The first two episodes genuinely do feel like Star Trek Rick and Morty and the show suffers for it but it's like by the third episode they've gotten it all out of their system and are just doing good funny Star Trek cartoons. Thank you. I'd bounced off the first two episodes. I'll try going back to it because I've wanted idealistic Trek. moths posted:Wasn't it established that Geordi's augmented vision is limited in a lot of ways? It's also augmented in a lot of ways, not limited to basic human eyesight. In one of the novels it's claimed that part of the reason for the problems with it (and why few other than Geordi can wear one) is that it sends too much information for most brains to be able to process, which leads to some questions about how inherent the drawbacks are and why Geordi leaves the beyond human senses parts always on.
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Sep 30, 2023 22:04
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Admiral Joeslop posted:I always assumed Earth was united under one government in Star Trek because I was never enough into it to watch most of the shows but apparently Geordi was born in Somalia in the "African Confederation" which the wiki says was a political entity.
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Sep 30, 2023 22:08
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There's an event in King of Dragon Pass where a group of "a human from the Orlanthi culture's adventuring society, another human who looks different from any you have ever seen, a dragonewt, a morokanth, and a duck show up and ask about 'an inn' -- which seems to be a request for hospitality." Your ring often advises you to kill them and take their magic. mellonbread posted:Federation Earth has continent level governments for the same reason present day countries have state, province, county and city level governments. Even strict authoritarian countries like China and Russia have local governments with some level of autonomy, because it's impossible for the central government to directly administer the entire territory.
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Sep 30, 2023 22:54
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Theres a star trek thread right?
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Sep 30, 2023 23:28
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w00tmonger posted:Theres a star trek thread right?
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Sep 30, 2023 23:32
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Also industry news has been remarkably scant since that big magic card heist. We're due for something egregious soon.
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Oct 1, 2023 00:21
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moths posted:Also industry news has been remarkably scant since that big magic card heist. Who do you think is most likely to come out in favor of AI art in commercial products next
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Oct 1, 2023 01:43
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Who do you think is most likely to come out in favor of AI art in commercial products next Dickheads, same as all the other times.
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Oct 1, 2023 04:04
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mellonbread posted:Federation Earth has continent level governments for the same reason present day countries have state, province, county and city level governments. Even strict authoritarian countries like China and Russia have local governments with some level of autonomy, because it's impossible for the central government to directly administer the entire territory. And a lot of the inconsistencies in the Federation world-building can then be explained if you assume the Federation's closer to the European Union or even the Holy Roman Empire than it is to a unitary state; it's an alliance of dozens of different political entities, most of which have histories stretching back centuries already, and some of those are themselves confederations of different political entities. So, yeah, the Picard family has a nice vineyard because the French Eighth Republic still recognizes ancestral claims to large estates. The European Confederation doesn't neccisarily recognize such things, but its land use regulations are more like guidelines and don't automatically apply to member states unless ratified by their individual parliaments. The United Earth and Federation government institutions above them probably could override them and legally reallocate the land to more productive uses, but that sort of meddling in a sub-national unit is generally avoided. Now the African Confederation handles things differently and has more direct control over its member states - unlike the United States of Africa, which is based in Kenya and does things a third way. Now if you were a citizen of Andoria, things would be both simpler and more complicated, as their laws are all based around pre-Federation Andorian Imperial Law - unless you're an Aenar, in which case you're considered a resident of a self governing autonomous zone that can ignore Imperial decrees...
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Oct 1, 2023 04:21
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Also yes it would make an extremely good RPG, because "slightly goofy slackers having to deal with serious problems" is what a lot of RPGs end up as anyway. There is a Star Trek rpg from Modiphius, and they released a Lower Decks book last month. It is quite good.
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