[canada] I don't need to take lessons on marginalized people. I'm ITALIAN!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [canada] I don't need to take lessons on marginalized people. I'm ITALIAN!

«‹›1612 »

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Juul-Whip posted:

this whole nazi thing will be completely normalized in 3 months time. everyone will mentally do the Heritage Moment zoom-out-and-fade-to-sepia and it'll just become another thing that happened in the past

lol yeah, you saw it last year with azov

quote:

I don�t get all the Azov excuses to justify not supporting Ukraine.

from what I have read the group itself has changed since being brought into the military itself. but even if the hadn�t they are a small number of people who are a useful resource willing to die for their country.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

quote:
Some commentators concur that the unit has depoliticised. A 2015 Reuters report noted that after the unit's inclusion in the National Guard and receipt of heavier equipment, Andriy Biletsky toned down his usual rhetoric, while most of the extremist leadership had left to focus on political careers in the National Corps party or the Azov Civil Corps.[40] An article published by Foreign Affairs in 2017 argued that the group was relatively depoliticized and deradicalized after it was brought into the fold of the National Guard of Ukraine. The government started a process with the objective of ferreting out neo-nazis and foreign fighters, with background checks, observations during training, and a law requiring all fighters to accept Ukrainian citizenship.[61] A 2018 commentary in Reuters by a former USAID official also had a skeptical response, saying that the real danger was not the original paramilitary group, but the civil movement

quote:

what crimes? all 2500 members have committed what documented crimes?

I have no idea of the internal politics of why the name still exists, but I�m pretty sure that the Jewish leader of Ukraine doesn�t support Nazi groups.

well do we have any evidence that hunka actually did any specific war crimes?!?!

# ? Sep 29, 2023 02:11

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# ? May 24, 2024 03:05

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Oglethorpe posted:

lmao

# ? Sep 29, 2023 02:35

damn horror queefs: Oct 14, 2005; say hello
say hello to the man in the elevator

Oglethorpe posted:

lmao

Fruitlessly petitioning this to be the cspam background picture

# ? Sep 29, 2023 02:57

ARACHTION: Mar 10, 2012

crispyseaweed posted:

well good news on that front, I saw a Toronto Sun op-ed acknowledge the memorials, but his line of thinking was that since the SS memorials will never be destroyed, we should put back up all the statues of John A Macdonald and all the other statues/ street signs of slaveowners and racists that the mean lefties tore down because it's only fair

You have got to be kidding me.

Honestly, this has been the weirdest thing where the conservatives don�t really know where to land because the they are supposed to hate the Nazi because Justin invited him but then also basically agree with Nazism, especially its violent anti-communism, but also they aren�t pro-Ukraine because it�s a Biden led effort.

The liberals are like well you went and hung out with Neo Nazis recently even though they�ve been purposefully ignoring all signs of any Nazi tendencies coming out of Ukraine over the last 3 years and there have been lots.

If anything, it points to the fact that liberals will work with fascists internationally as long as it serves capitalist interests and conservatives will do so abroad and domestically.

# ? Sep 29, 2023 08:34

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

Oglethorpe posted:

lmao

https://twitter.com/CheriDiNovo/status/1498956455512264705

# ? Sep 29, 2023 10:55

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

cheri, that's not what she's being attacked for.

do better

# ? Sep 29, 2023 11:48

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

infernal machines posted:

cheri, that's not what she's being attacked for.

do better

cheri's tweet is from march 2022

# ? Sep 29, 2023 11:57

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

the point remains, she wasn't being attacked because her grandfather was a nazi collaborator then either.

she's been attacked because she has gone on repeatedly and at length about what a great man her grandfather (who was a nazi collaborator) was, and how important he was to her political development.

she cannot change who her grandfather was, and his sins aren't hers. but if she goes around telling everyone what a swell guy he was, she is going to have to wear the fact that she is endorsing what he did and who he was.

infernal machines has issued a correction as of 12:05 on Sep 29, 2023

# ? Sep 29, 2023 12:03

Puppy Burner: Sep 9, 2011

infernal machines posted:

she cannot change who her grandfather was, and his sins aren't hers. but if she goes around telling everyone what a swell guy he was, she is going to have to wear the fact that she is endorsing what he did and who he was.

Actually her heart is just so full of love that she was able to forgive him for his actions. You should really try it OP.

# ? Sep 29, 2023 12:13

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

infernal machines posted:

the point remains, she wasn't being attacked because her grandfather was a nazi collaborator then either.

she's been attacked because she has gone on repeatedly and at length about what a great man her grandfather (who was a nazi collaborator) was, and how important he was to her political development.

she cannot change who her grandfather was, and his sins aren't hers. but if she goes around telling everyone what a swell guy he was, she is going to have to wear the fact that she is endorsing what he did and who he was.

iirc she said he was her greatest political influence, and at least a few years ago she used to tweet stuff like "let's remember victims like my grandpa" on "black ribbon day" which is at least theoretically supposed to be a day for remembering victims of nazism even though in practice it's usually used as a day for saying that stalin and hitler were equally bad

# ? Sep 29, 2023 12:46

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

vyelkin posted:

iirc she said he was her greatest political influence, and at least a few years ago she used to tweet stuff like "let's remember victims like my grandpa" on "black ribbon day" which is at least theoretically supposed to be a day for remembering victims of nazism even though in practice it's usually used as a day for saying that stalin and hitler were equally bad

ah, international D&D day

# ? Sep 29, 2023 12:49

ZShakespeare: Jul 20, 2003; The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose!

I remember in high school having a massive crush on a girl who's parents were Croatian immigrants. She made a big deal about her big final essay for history class being about how Stalin was worse than Hitler, actually. Upon reflection I definitely dodged a bullet there.

# ? Sep 29, 2023 16:39

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

ZShakespeare posted:

I remember in high school having a massive crush on a girl who's parents were Croatian immigrants. She made a big deal about her big final essay for history class being about how Stalin was worse than Hitler, actually. Upon reflection I definitely dodged a bullet there.

Everybody is like "That's it! I'm moving to South America if Pierre Poilievre is elected", but when they have the chance to make connections to the Holy See that might actually help them do that, they pass it up. Smh.

# ? Sep 29, 2023 16:48

Puppy Burner: Sep 9, 2011

I remember in high school my philosophy teacher called me Joe Stalin because of my extremely correct opinions

# ? Sep 29, 2023 16:51

Karach: May 23, 2003; no war but class war

Frosted Flake posted:

Everybody is like "That's it! I'm moving to South America if Pierre Poilievre is elected", but when they have the chance to make connections to the Holy See that might actually help them do that, they pass it up. Smh.

Wait is there some kind of placement program for Canadian catholics?

# ? Sep 29, 2023 17:01

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Karach posted:

Wait is there some kind of placement program for Canadian catholics?

I was just referring to the Papal ratlines that brought over the Croats in the aftermath of WW2.

# ? Sep 29, 2023 17:03

Karach: May 23, 2003; no war but class war

Dusted off my Precious Moments confirmation Bible for nothing

# ? Sep 29, 2023 17:23

DynamicSloth: Jul 30, 2006; "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

vyelkin posted:

iirc she said he was her greatest political influence, and at least a few years ago she used to tweet stuff like "let's remember victims like my grandpa" on "black ribbon day" which is at least theoretically supposed to be a day for remembering victims of nazism even though in practice it's usually used as a day for saying that stalin and hitler were equally bad

Did she really characterize her Grandfather as a victim? Those evil communists making him flee the beautifully furnished apartment that the Germans were nice enough to gift him and shutting down an important press organ.

# ? Sep 29, 2023 18:09

paul_soccer12: Jan 5, 2020; by Fluffdaddy

DynamicSloth posted:

Did she really characterize her Grandfather as a victim? Those evil communists making him flee the beautifully furnished apartment that the Germans were nice enough to gift him and shutting down an important press organ.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/chrystia-freeland-needs-to-come-clean-about-her-nazi-collaborationist-grandfather

quote:

"My maternal grandparents fled western Ukraine after Hitler and Stalin signed their non-aggression pact in 1939. They never dared to go back, but they stayed in close touch with their brothers and sisters and their families, who remained behind,� she wrote in a 2015 essay for the Brookings Institution titled �My Ukraine.� �For the rest of my grandparents� lives, they saw themselves as political exiles with a responsibility to keep alive the idea of an independent Ukraine, which had last existed, briefly, during and after the chaos of the 1917 Russian Revolution. That dream persisted into the next generation, and in some cases the generation after that."

quote:

�All my grandparents loved Canada but my Ukrainian grandfather was the most passionate,� Freeland said. In 2016, she used the occasion of Black Ribbon Day, which perpetuates a false equivalence between Nazism and communism, to tweet a loving tribute to her maternal grandparents. �They were forever grateful to Canada for giving them refuge and they worked hard to bring freedom and democracy to Ukraine,� Freeland tweeted.

https://twitter.com/cafreeland/status/1297547132984057856?lang=en
https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/1297519178526658561

# ? Sep 29, 2023 18:18

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

infernal machines posted:

the point remains, she wasn't being attacked because her grandfather was a nazi collaborator then either.

she's been attacked because she has gone on repeatedly and at length about what a great man her grandfather (who was a nazi collaborator) was, and how important he was to her political development.

she cannot change who her grandfather was, and his sins aren't hers. but if she goes around telling everyone what a swell guy he was, she is going to have to wear the fact that she is endorsing what he did and who he was.

and if she goes around telling everyone what a swell guy he was on the day we mark the victims of the holocaust, there's an outside chance she might just be an rear end in a top hat

# ? Sep 30, 2023 15:50

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

I saw an article on the Globe today about the Ukrainian Nazi that boiled my blood, so I'm going to inflict it on you all too.

Here's the article: https://archive.ph/IX5gp

Basically, Ukrainian-Canadian groups are coming out to defend the guy by trotting out all the "just because you fought for the Nazis doesn't make you a Nazi" tropes.

quote:

The president of the Ukrainian National Federation of Canada is defending a Second World War veteran of a Nazi unit who was recently lauded as a hero in Canada�s Parliament.

Jurij Klufas has not met 98-year-old Yaroslav Hunka but says the veteran is being treated unfairly. He says Hunka was fighting for Ukraine � not Germany � and that countries, including Canada, have cleared his division of war crimes.

"If you're a soldier doesn't mean you're a member of a certain party from the country," Klufas said Friday in a phone interview. "In this case, the senior gentleman here was a soldier, in his understanding, fighting for Ukraine."

quote:

In response to questions about Hunka, the Ukrainian Canadian Congress said Thursday that the people of present-day Ukraine, including its Jewish population, suffered successive occupations by "foreign empires and colonizers" going back centuries.

"There are difficult and painful pages in the shared history of the communities who made their home in Ukraine," congress CEO Ihor Michalchyshyn said in a statement. "The UCC acknowledges that recent events that brought these pages to the forefront have caused pain and anguish."

quote:

Klufas blames the branding of Hunka as a Nazi on "Russian disinformation," adding, "the fact that he was a soldier does not mean that he was a Nazi." He also said there was nothing wrong with Parliament applauding a man "who fought for his country." However, he conceded that it "maybe wasn't correct" in the circumstances, given that the people there didn't fully understand the issue.

Even John-Paul Himka, who's done a lot to uncover the truth about these kinds of things, gets in on the action, though with a more nuanced explanation:

quote:

John-Paul Himka, a University of Alberta professor emeritus and the author of a book about Ukrainians and the Holocaust, said many of the young men who joined the Galicia division in 1943 were motivated by the atrocities they witnessed under Soviet occupation, including the murder of thousands of political prisoners and mass deportations to labour camps.

�So for the people in this region, the Soviets were the nightmare and the Germans were relatively tolerable," he said. "So that, I think, explains why so many of them thought that what they were doing fighting against the Soviets was patriotic.�

He said some Galician units did participate in atrocities, including murders in Polish villages. The division had an antisemitic newspaper and accepted into its ranks �policemen who had been very important in the Holocaust, who had rounded up Jews for execution and sometimes executed Jews themselves," he said.

All the usual rationalizations are there. Conversely, here's an article written by Hunka himself in 2011, called "My Generation": https://web.archive.org/web/20230925013139/https://komb-a-ingwar.blogspot.com/2011/03/blog-post_21.html

Here are some relevant bits, with mostly machine-translated English (my Ukrainian is not great).

quote:

Вересень, 1939 року - мені чотирнадцять літ.

Польське військо і цивільне населення безперервною валкою втікає дорогою в напрямі Бережан, а німецькі літаки час від часу підганяють їх. Щодня ми нетерпляче гляділи в сторону Поморян з надією, що ось-ось з'являться ті містичні німецькі лицарі, що так дають �по-кулях" зненавидженим ляхам. Замість їх, одного дня з Бережан надійшла колона вершників з червоними зірками на шапках.

September, 1939. I am fourteen. The Polish army and civilian population are constantly fleeing along the road towards Berezhan in a continuous wagon train, and German planes catch up with them from time to time. Every day we looked impatiently towards Pomoriany hoping that those mystical German knights who give "bullets" to the hated cowards will appear. Instead of them, one day a column of horsemen with red stars on their caps arrived from Berezhan.

Hunka then describes two years under Soviet occupation in Berezhany, including NKVD purges.

quote:

На наступний шкільний рік я перенісся на мешкання до української бурси на Райській вулиці, де управителем був професор Михайло Ребрик. В моїй шостій клясі зі сорока учнів було шестеро українців, дві польки, а решта євреї-діти втікачів з Польщі. Нам було дивно, чого вони втікали перед таким цивілізованим західним народом як німці.

For the next school year, I moved to live in the Ukrainian Bursa on Raiska Street, where Professor Mykhailo Rebrik was the manager. In my sixth grade, out of forty students, there were six Ukrainians, two Poles, and the rest were Jewish children of refugees from Poland. We wondered why they were running away from such a civilized Western nation as the Germans.

quote:

У липні 41-го року німецька армія зайняла Бережани. Ми з радістю вітали німецьких воїнів. Нарід відчув відлигу, знаючи, що вже більше не буде того страхозвісного стукання у двері серед ночі і хоч можна буде тепер спокійно виспатися.

...

Над Бережанською землею запанував новий �визволитель" українського народу - фюрер Гітлер. Портрети Гітлера у довгій шинелі з піднесеним угору ковніром, що обгортав грізне обличчя з маленькими, якби штучно причепленими під острим носом вусиками, і з написом �Гітлер-визволитель" висіли у кожній клясі. Фюрер негайно показав свої пляни щодо України, ліквідувавши тимчасовий український уряд у Львові і запроторивши українських провідників в концентраційні табори.

In July 1941, the German army occupied Berezhany We greeted the German soldiers with joy. The people felt a thaw, knowing that there would be no more of that dreaded knocking on the door in the middle of the night, and at least it would be possible to sleep peacefully now.

...

A new "liberator" of the Ukrainian people ruled over the land of Berezhansk - F�hrer Hitler. Portraits of Hitler in a long overcoat with a raised cowl covering his menacing face with small, as if artificially attached whiskers under his sharp nose, and with the inscription "Hitler-liberator" hung in each class. The F�hrer immediately revealed his plans for Ukraine, liquidating the provisional Ukrainian government in Lviv and imprisoning Ukrainian leaders in concentration camps.

quote:

Мені саме минуло 16 років, і наступні два роки стали найщасливішими роками мойого життя. Не уявляв я собі, що пережите в тих двох роках напоїть мене любов'ю до рідного міста так, що вистачить мені її на все життя. Не знав я тоді, що мрії про ті два роки, про товариство чарівних дівчат, про безжурно веселих друзів, про запашні вечори у розкішному замковому парку і проходи по місті допоможуть мені перейти тривожні часи наступних років. Що спогади про Бережанську гімназію в старому ратуші, з її професорами і з її все веселими і гучними студентами, будуть підтримувати моє серце і душу на чужині в наступні десятиліття.

Прийшов сорок третій рік. Німецькі армії �пляново" відступали на захід. Думка про поворот тих звірів у людській подобі з червоною зіркою на лобі стала реальною. Час і події сказали, що прийшла черга на моє покоління іти слідами попередників. І пішло воно задля ідеї Соборної України. Наші дороги були різні - бо така то була доля нашого бездержавного народу. На поклик ОУН багато пішло в ряди УПА. Інші, на поклик Українського Центрального Комітету, пішли добровольцями до дивізії �Галичина". За два тижні зголосилося до дивізії вісімдесят тисяч добровольців, в тому числі багато учнів Бережанської гімназії. Ніхто з нас не питався, яка буде наша винагорода, яке наше забезпечення, чи навіть яке наше завтра. Ми відчували наш обов'язок до рідного краю - і пішли!

Багато учнів Бережанської гімназії полягли геройською смертю в лавах УПА, у дивізії �Галичина". Не хочу, щоб читач зрозумів, що все моє покоління було ідейно мотивоване і духовно свідоме. �В мішку здорових яблук знайдуться і гнилі". Це буде залежати, яке відношення між тими двома якостями яблук є в перебігу даного покоління.

I just turned 16, and the next two years were the happiest years of my life. I had no idea that what I experienced in those two years would fill me with love for my native city in such a way that it would be enough for me for the rest of my life. I didn't know then that dreams about those two years, about the company of charming girls, about carelessly cheerful friends, about fragrant evenings in the luxurious castle park and walks around the city would help me get through the anxious times of the following years. That the memories of the Berezhansk Gymnasium in the old town hall, with its professors and with its increasingly cheerful and noisy students, will support my heart and soul in a foreign land in the coming decades.

1943 has come. The German army did a "planned" retreat to the west. The thought of returning to those beasts in human form with red stars on their foreheads became real. Time and events said that it was my generation's turn to follow in the footsteps of its predecessors. And it went for the sake of the idea of Cathedral Ukraine. Our roads were different - because that was the fate of our stateless people. At the call of the OUN, many joined the ranks of the UPA. Others, at the call of the Ukrainian Central Committee, went as volunteers to the "Galichyna" division. In two weeks, eighty thousand volunteers volunteered to join the division, including many students of the Berezhan Gymnasium. None of us asked what our reward would be, what our provision would be, or even what our tomorrow would be. We felt our duty to our native land - and left!

Many students of the Berezhansk Gymnasium died a heroic death in the ranks of the UPA, in the "Galichyna" division. I do not want the reader to understand that my entire generation was ideologically motivated and spiritually conscious. "In a bag of healthy apples, there are also rotten ones." It will depend on the relationship between those two qualities of apples in the course of a given generation.

quote:

Бути відмежованим залізною заслоною від рідної землі майже пів-століття - це дуже довгий час у житті людини. Чужина, а ще як вона привітна, багата і гуманна, має велику притягаючу силу до себе. Можна було б навіть пробачити тим, що втратили свою ідентичність у таких обставинах і �згубилися". Українська еміграція, еміграція бездержавного народу, зуміла зберегти свою ідентичність: не тільки зберегти, але й розвинути свою культуру й історію.Дорога назад у рідний край була тяжка і довга. Вона пішла через Західну Европу, Англію і Канаду. Моя перша подорож в Україну була у вересні 1989 року. Ніхто і нічого не може приготувати людину до тих емоційно-потрясаючих переживань, що її приходиться переносити стрінувшись віч-на-віч з рідною землею по так довгому часі розлуки. Я не радив би робити цю прощу людям слабого серця і похилого віку.

�Бережани - Ти найкраще місто в світі! "-для багатьох, що провели там юність свою. - �Ти роками було їх мрією в далеких чужих краях. Хто привів Тебе до такого занепаду і руїни? Хто зруйнував наші мрії?"

Стежки нашого дитинства позаростали бур'янами і хабузям - дороги стали непроходимі. Замок, що був гордістю міста для багатьох поколінь і приманою для закоханих, лежить занедбаний у руїні. Зі славного Бережанського ставу осталася велика смердюча калабаня. Ця сама доля стрінула мій улюблений Урманський став. Хотілося з розпачі вийти на гору Сторожисько і на повний голос заридати над розвіяними довголітніми мріями і над руїною Лепкового �Найкращого міста в світі". Яка нечиста сила гуляла тут протягом останнього півстоліття?!

Ця очевидна руїна довкілля одначе блідне в порівнянню з душевним занепадом народу. Командна безбожна комуністична система загнала людину в безнадійну ситуацію і це було видно в її сумних очах. �Радянська" людина піддалася своїй долі вважаючи, що вона безсильна мати якийнебудь вплив на її хід життя. В такій безпорадній ситуації ця людина віддалася крайній байдужості. Цю байдужість завважувалося на кожному кроці життя. Людина стала байдужою до свойого довкілля, до потреб і болів свого сусіда-�свого ближнього".

Being separated by an iron curtain from one's native land for almost half a century is a very long time in a person's life. A foreigner, and how friendly, rich and humane she is, has a great power of attraction. One could even forgive those who lost their identity in such circumstances and got "lost". and long. She went through Western Europe, England and Canada. My first trip to Ukraine was in September 1989. No one and nothing can prepare a person for those emotionally shocking experiences that he has to endure when he comes face to face with his native earth after such a long time of separation.

"Berezhany - You are the best city in the world! "- for many who spent their youth there. - "You were their dream for years in distant foreign lands. Who brought You to such decline and ruin? Who destroyed our dreams?"

The paths of our childhood were overgrown with weeds and weeds - the roads became impassable. The castle, which was the pride of the city for many generations and a lure for lovers, lies abandoned in ruins. From the famous Berezhansky pond, a big smelly calabanya remained. The same fate befell my beloved Urmansky pond. Out of desperation, I wanted to go to Mount Storozhysko and weep at the top of my voice over the shattered long-term dreams and over the ruins of Lepkov's "Best City in the World". What evil force has been walking here for the past half century?!

This obvious ruin of the environment, however, pales in comparison with the spiritual decline of the people. The command godless communist system drove a person into a hopeless situation and it was visible in her sad eyes. The "Soviet" person surrendered to his fate, believing that he was powerless to have any influence on his life. In such a helpless situation, this person surrendered to extreme indifference. This indifference was observed at every step of life. Man became indifferent to his environment, to the needs and pains of his neighbor - "one's neighbor".

You get the gist. According to Hunka, as young as age 14 he hoped for the German knights to come save him from Poles. During his two years under Soviet occupation in the town of Berezhany, he was educated alongside large numbers of Jewish refugees fleeing the Germans - but why, he wonders, since the Germans are so humane and civilized. When the Germans invade, the two years he spent under German occupation in Berezhany were "the happiest years of [his] life" and the ones that filled his heart for the rest of his life, because that was when you were safe from the knock on the door in the middle of the night. They were also the years when Hitler stared down at them from every wall and when, according to him, the Nazis liquidated the provisional Ukrainian government and imprisoned national leaders in concentration camps. When 1943 came and it appeared the Soviets would return and put an end to this golden age in his life, he volunteered for the Waffen-SS and is curiously silent about what exactly he did to defend "Cathedral Ukraine" between then and surrendering to the Allies in 1945. When he returned to Berezhany in 1989, he wept because the town he loved, where he experienced the best years of his life under Hitler's rule, had become too communist for him, because an "evil force" had ruled it for the previous half century.

Incidentally, here's what Wikipedia has to say about this period in the history of the town of Berezhany (using the Polish spelling Brzeżany):

quote:

Before World War II Brzezany's Jewish population was about 4,000, while after 1939 this population tripled with an additional 8,000 Jews, refugees from eastern German-occupied territories. After the Soviets left in July 1941, the Ukrainians launched a pogrom, murdering dozens of the town's Jews, looting and injuring Jews.[3] In December 1941, approximately 1,000 Jews were killed in the Lityatyn forest.[4] On 12 June 1943 the Nazis murdered almost all the Jews from the Brzezany ghetto and work camp at the local cemetery; only a few escaped.

The happiest years of Hunka's life were the years when his town committed a pogrom against its Jewish residents, then they were rounded up and murdered or imprisoned in ghettos. Around the same time he joined the Waffen-SS, the Nazis liquidated the Berezhany ghetto and killed thousands of Jews. What became of his Jewish classmates? Hunka doesn't mention it, but he does say those were the happiest years of his life. Mass murder of his classmates and neighbours certainly wasn't a dealbreaker for him, since he joined the Waffen-SS around the same time that the last mass murder of Berezhany Jews was taking place. No, the thing that he was really worried about was that the Soviets might come back.

After the mention of having Jewish classmates between 1939-41, the only mention of Jews I found in the article was this:

quote:

У таборі військовополонених в Італії стрічав я багато хлопців з різних сіл Бережанщини. Пригадую, що з Бережанської гімназії були там Ярослав Бабуняк, Степан Кукурудза, Ярослав Лотоцький, Лев Баглай, Володимир Білик, Остап Сокольський, Лев Бабій, Ярослав Івахів.

Думаю, що така була воля Божа, щоб ми роз'їхались по світі, як плем'я Ізраїля, розказали світові про Україну, а сорок п'ять років пізніше прийшли до неї з допомогою.

In a prisoner-of-war camp in Italy, I met many boys from various villages of the Berezhan region. I remember that Yaroslav Babunyak from the Berezhansk gymnasium was there, Stepan Kukuruza, Yaroslav Lototskyi, Lev Baglai, Volodymyr Bilyk, Ostap Sokolskyi, Lev Babii, Yaroslav Ivakhiv.

I think that it was God's will that we should travel around the world like the tribe of Israel, tell the world about Ukraine, and forty-five years later come to it with help.

The "tribe of Israel" that Hunka was most concerned about wasn't his 12,000 Jewish neighbours who were murdered in the Holocaust, it was him and his friends from school in Berezhany who became the Ukrainian diaspora. The actual Jews murdered in his town by the Germans he welcomed as liberators? They don't count because they aren't part of the Ukrainian nation.

I found this whole thing disturbing, but probably the most disturbing part is the contrast between his nostalgia for the Nazi occupation, when thousands of Jews were being rounded up and murdered (which he doesn't mention, in contrast to naming specific people taken away by the NKVD in 39-41) and his weeping at the state of Berezhany in 1989. He condemns the people who lived in Berezhany because, according to Hunka, "Man became indifferent to his environment, to the needs and pains of his neighbor". And yet the happiest years of his life were the years when thousands of his neighbours were being rounded up and murdered by Nazis. Those years were so happy that he volunteered to join the fight for Nazism and pledge an oath of loyalty to Adolf Hitler so that he could keep them going. To him, communism was evil but Nazism wasn't. Despite what the leaders of the Ukrainian-Canadian community keep trying to say, there isn't a lot of nuance to be found here. The guy is a Nazi.

vyelkin has issued a correction as of 16:45 on Sep 30, 2023

# ? Sep 30, 2023 16:30

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

It just boggles my mind that we took these people in, truly.

We took all of 70 loving scientists and technicians but we took every camp guard, auxiliary policeman and Trawniki man we could find.

vyelkin posted:

I found this whole thing disturbing, but probably the most disturbing part is the contrast between his nostalgia for the Nazi occupation, when thousands of Jews were being rounded up and murdered (which he doesn't mention, in contrast to naming specific people taken away by the NKVD in 39-41) and his weeping at the state of Berezhany in 1989. He condemns the people who lived in Berezhany because, according to Hunka, "Man became indifferent to his environment, to the needs and pains of his neighbor". And yet the happiest years of his life were the years when thousands of his neighbours were being rounded up and murdered by Nazis. Those years were so happy that he volunteered to join the fight for Nazism and pledge an oath of loyalty to Adolf Hitler so that he could keep them going. To him, communism was evil but Nazism wasn't. Despite what the leaders of the Ukrainian-Canadian community keep trying to say, there isn't a lot of nuance to be found here. The guy is a Nazi.

# ? Sep 30, 2023 16:37

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Oh I should add something to that post: Berezhany wasn't some huge city where 12,000 people could go missing and you might not notice. Its current population is 17,000 people. Its population was 10,610 in 1900 and 11,199 in 1959. I don't know what its exact population breakdown was in 1939/41/43 but it's obvious that 4,000-12,000 Jews were very far from being some tiny minority that could be murdered without anyone noticing. It's more like half the town. There's no way he didn't know what was happening. He knew, everyone knew. They joined up anyway.

# ? Sep 30, 2023 16:50

Karach: May 23, 2003; no war but class war

From the collaborators' point of view, how did fighting for the Nazis get them closer to their goal of national liberation? Did they have some secret deal worked out with the Germans for what would happen to urkainian territory after the war?

# ? Sep 30, 2023 16:58

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Karach posted:

From the collaborators' point of view, how did fighting for the Nazis get them closer to their goal of national liberation? Did they have some secret deal worked out with the Germans for what would happen to urkainian territory after the war?

For many of them, it facilitated their goals of ethnically cleansing Ukraine of Poles and Jews.

# ? Sep 30, 2023 16:59

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

vyelkin posted:

Oh I should add something to that post: Berezhany wasn't some huge city where 12,000 people could go missing and you might not notice. Its current population is 17,000 people. Its population was 10,610 in 1900 and 11,199 in 1959. I don't know what its exact population breakdown was in 1939/41/43 but it's obvious that 4,000-12,000 Jews were very far from being some tiny minority that could be murdered without anyone noticing. It's more like half the town. There's no way he didn't know what was happening. He knew, everyone knew. They joined up anyway.

Do you remember that Terrell Starr guy driving around eastern Ukraine and saying it's a "mystery" how the Jewish population of towns disappeared? It was one of the most surreal things last spring.

# ? Sep 30, 2023 16:59

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

Did you see this Globe article, vyelkin? It even talks about Hunka's essays but tries (and fails) to gently both sides it.

# ? Sep 30, 2023 17:08

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

The Holocaust historian Omer Bartov has a brief section about Berezhany in his book Erased: Vanishing Traces of Jewish Galicia in Present-Day Ukraine (Princeton University Press, 2007).

pp. 157-165 posted:

Not far from Ternopil', heading southwest, lies the town of Berezhany. In 2002 an Israeli historian published a book, part memoir and part history, that described his survival as a young boy in that town during the German occupation.134 The author, Shimon Redlich, was saved by Ukrainians and Poles, and in his book expresses thanks and admiration for his rescuers. He also points out that many of those who helped did so for reasons of greed, while others had more altruistic motivations. While he makes a heroic effort to be fair and balanced, Redlich cannot avoid but point out the collaboration of many Ukrainians in the murder of the Jewish population of his hometown: of approximately 10,000 Jews who lived there when the Germans marches in, less than 100 survived.

Unlike the controversy in Poland over Jan Tomasz Gross's book Neighbors, which reconstructed the murder of the Jewish population of the eastern Polish town of Jedwabne by its Polish inhabitants, the publication of Redlich's book in Ukrainian did not cause much of a storm.136 This probably indicates that in Ukraine public discourse has not even reached the point of acknowledging the immense tragedy of the Holocaust, let alone openly discussing Ukrainian complicity in the mass murder of the Jews. Rather, these events are often distorted in ways meant to gain other political and ideological ends. This was nicely illustrated by an article published in the Ternopil' newspaper Vil'ne zhyttia (Free Life), which expressed the historical perspective of Ukrainian nationalist ideology.137

The author of the essay, Dariya Shatna, claims that Redlish had not used objective archival documentation on events in Berezhany and instead relied on biased accounts and testimonies. The result is, she writes, that Redlich himself expresses bigoted opinions about Ukrainians. She is especially troubled because the book's "racist characterization of Ukrainians and its hyperbolic falsifications regarding the 'Jewish pogrom in Berezhany,' [and] the actions of the 'Ukrainian bandits,'" threaten to "create a universally negative image of Ukraine." This is all the more disturbing to Shatna because the book "has appeared in English, Polish, and Ukrainian," and is described on its cover as "going far beyond the local context and regional history."138 A "refutation of this falsification" is necessary, she writes, since such unjust allegations against Ukrainians subject them to "moral discrimination," by which she implies that Ukrainians are being blamed for the crimes of the Germans and for this reason are mistreated by the rest of the world.139

But Shatna is not only worried by the false image of Ukraine; she also wants to expose the real face of the Jews. Thus she asserts that the Jews have always collaborated with whichever regime or ethnic group was in power. Consequently, the Jews also dominated the NKVD, and therefore they collaborated with the Soviets in the genocide of the Ukrainians. For this reason Jews are hardly in a position to blame the Ukrainians for collaborating with the Nazis in the Holocaust.140 Concluding her article with an account of the crimes perpetrated by the Bolsheviks (read the Jews) against the Ukrainians, Shatna rhetorically calls for a second Nuremberg Tribunal, this time for the genocide of the Ukrainians, in which, it is implied, the Jews will play the role of the indicted.141

This extreme perspective is not shared by all, or even most Ukrainians, certainly not if we take into account the country as a whole rather than only its western and most nationalist provinces. Quite apart from those who undertook the translation and publication of Redlich's book, there were others who welcomed it precisely because it served as proof, to their minds, of the prevalence of "good Ukrainians" and therefore helped to further disseminate what can be called the "Sheptyts'kyi cult." Indeed, while not sharing this cult, Redlich himself has made a significant contribution to the recognition of Metropolitan Andrey Sheptyts'kyi's efforts to save Jews during the Holocaust and has led a long and as yet unsuccessful campaign for his recognition as a "righteous gentile" by Yad Vashem in Jerusalem.142 Arguably this quest for "good" Ukrainians might be a more representative trend. Moreover, a few Ukrainian historians have given qualified praise to Redlich's book, even as they criticize him for being one-sided, and have more generally offered a more nuanced view of Soviet rule and Jewish "collaboration."143 Nevertheless, the fact remains that especially in Western Ukraine it is possible to argue not merely for an equivalence of suffering but to shift the burden of guilt from Ukrainian collaboration in the Holocaust to Jewish participation and indeed leadership in the mass murder of Ukrainians by the Bolshevik authorities.

The enterprising mayor of Berezhany has now renovated the center of the town, after years of neglect under Soviet rule. The Ukrainian Holy Trinity Church, the municipal hall, and the square that separates them have been tastefully repaired, repainted, and paved. On a cold March afternoon in 2003, under a bright blue sky, the town evinced an air of hope and progress. The mayor had also obligingly put up a town map in the central square, where all the main sites were clearly marked. But there was no indication of any former Jewish sites. Berezhany is not a large town, and we believed that someone would be able to point us to the synagogue, which we knew from Redlich's book was not destroyed. Most people on the street seemed to have no idea, until we found a young lad, who not only led us down the short path to what has remained of the synagogue, but also claimed to know where Redlich had lived and to recall his visit to his hometown some years back.

Redlich provides a photograph of the Great Synagogue as it looked in 1991. While it was an empty shell, it still retained the basic shape and structure that can be glimpsed from prewar photographs. Twelve years later very little of this shell was left. Barely two walls were standing, and they too seemed to be very close to collapse. The ground was littered with garbage. The synagogue, after all, is not in some isolated spot out of town, but a few minutes' walk from the main square (the German-imposed ghetto was just behind the square). Ironically, a standard plaque has been attached to one of the two remaining walls, noting that this is a protected architectural monument, and that anyone causing it damage could be prosecuted. Otherwise one can find no mention of the past existence of Jews in Berezhany, let alone a memorial commemorating their murder. In the 1930s, Jews comprised about a third of the total population. Today, it may be difficult for the population to grasp why such a large and impressive synagogue once stood to close to the center of town, but this riddle will soon be solved by the forces of nature and human neglect.

Berezhany does boast both a Soviet memorial, built at the edge of the Christian cemetery, and a monument to the men of the UPA that faces the Soviet edifice in an understandably hostile attitude, considering that for much of its existence the latter dedicated itself to fighting the former. The okopisko, or Jewish cemetery, in which thousands of the Jewish residents were murdered, carries no such memorial. Conversely, Berezhany recently decided to celebrate its six-hundred-and-thirtieth anniversary by erecting a monument with a bust of OUN-B leader Stepan Bandera.144 Thus once more--and despite Redlich's efforts at reconciliation through history and truth--rather than providing a space to the memory and tragedy of the Jewish community of the town, Berezhany will soon celebrate the man whose organization called for the "removal" of the Jews and whose loyal troops helped bring it about.

vyelkin has issued a correction as of 17:42 on Sep 30, 2023

# ? Sep 30, 2023 17:27

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

eXXon posted:

Did you see this Globe article, vyelkin? It even talks about Hunka's essays but tries (and fails) to gently both sides it.

I hadn't, but given what I've just read about Berezhany and the very visible murder of 10,000 Jews there during the years Hunka says were the best of his life, I think anyone who enlisted in the Waffen-SS from that town should be imprisoned for the rest of their natural life regardless of whatever spin is placed on their actions.

# ? Sep 30, 2023 17:28

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

vyelkin posted:

...the publication of Redlich's book in Ukrainian did not cause much of a storm.This probably indicates that in Ukraine public discourse has not even reached the point of acknowledging the immense tragedy of the Holocaust, let alone openly discussing Ukrainian complicity in the mass murder of the Jews. Rather, these events are often distorted in ways meant to gain other political and ideological ends.

Ukraine.txt

Although I suppose by extension, Canada.txt as well.

vyelkin posted:

But Shatna is not only worried by the false image of Ukraine; she also wants to expose the real face of the Jews. Thus she asserts that the Jews have always collaborated with whichever regime or ethnic group was in power. Consequently, the Jews also dominated the NKVD, and therefore they collaborated with the Soviets in the genocide of the Ukrainians. For this reason Jews are hardly in a position to blame the Ukrainians for collaborating with the Nazis in the Holocaust. Concluding her article with an account of the crimes perpetrated by the Bolsheviks (read the Jews) against the Ukrainians, Shatna rhetorically calls for a second Nuremberg Tribunal, this time for the genocide of the Ukrainians, in which, it is implied, the Jews will play the role of the indicted.

I've been trying to process stuff like this for over a year now, and it still leaves me breathless. The fact that this can be laundered for English speaking western liberal audiences with minimal effort and scrutiny even moreso.

Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 17:44 on Sep 30, 2023

# ? Sep 30, 2023 17:42

If you are on twitter and do not follow Canadian real estate experts, you should, because they are all complete loving idiots and it's really funny watching them panic as they realize that interest rates aren't going to go down to 2% by the end of this year even though they've all been trying to Tinkerbell clap it into happening

# ? Sep 30, 2023 18:37

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

As always thanks for the effort posts vyelkin, especially going through Hunka's own words and fleshing out the historical context he mentions in brief to fully flesh out the awful implications of what's he's writing about.

I can entirely imagine that he didn't question what was happening to his Jewish neighbours because whatever was happening wasn't happening to him anymore. I'm sure plenty of people were in survivor mode by that point and I certainly wouldn't expect anyone, let alone a 14 year old, a full and thorough understanding of what was going on in his hometown and country at the time.

But as always, while I can come to understand why people made the horrible decisions they did and thought the ways they did at the time, especially those especially vulnerable during a horrific war, I sure as poo poo wouldn't try to valourize them nor should any country loving celebrate it. The Germans have done better than most on this front, most likely because they can't whitewash the fact that their nationalism was explicitly and overtly tied to a genocidal program.

also JFC:

quote:

But Shatna is not only worried by the false image of Ukraine; she also wants to expose the real face of the Jews. Thus she asserts that the Jews have always collaborated with whichever regime or ethnic group was in power. Consequently, the Jews also dominated the NKVD, and therefore they collaborated with the Soviets in the genocide of the Ukrainians. For this reason Jews are hardly in a position to blame the Ukrainians for collaborating with the Nazis in the Holocaust.140 Concluding her article with an account of the crimes perpetrated by the Bolsheviks (read the Jews) against the Ukrainians, Shatna rhetorically calls for a second Nuremberg Tribunal, this time for the genocide of the Ukrainians, in which, it is implied, the Jews will play the role of the indicted.

Dreylad has issued a correction as of 18:55 on Sep 30, 2023

# ? Sep 30, 2023 18:48

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

It's kind of funny watching this whole thing play out in the media because for once one a historical subject the lack of nuance is actually appropriate here, and the attempts to bring "some nuance" to the episode comes off again and again as people whitewashing a nazi. Meanwhile there's enough coverage that accepts the fact the guy was a nazi, the Liberals already scrambled to cover their idiocy in spite of a gaggle of dumbass journalists, who probably think the highest calling of journalism is countering Russian propaganda, running cover for this wretched man.

Dreylad has issued a correction as of 18:58 on Sep 30, 2023

# ? Sep 30, 2023 18:52

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:

If you are on twitter and do not follow Canadian real estate experts, you should, because they are all complete loving idiots and it's really funny watching them panic as they realize that interest rates aren't going to go down to 2% by the end of this year even though they've all been trying to Tinkerbell clap it into happening

NEO: These...these interest rates are real?
MORPHEUS: What is real. How do you define real? If you�re talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain. This is the world that you know. The world as it was in Canada at the start of of the twentieth-first century. It exists now only as part of a neural-interactive simulation that we call the housing bubble. You've been living in a dream world. This is the world as it exists today.... Welcome to the Desert of the Realtor.

# ? Sep 30, 2023 19:04

Dreylad posted:

NEO: These...these interest rates are real?
MORPHEUS: What is real. How do you define real? If you�re talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain. This is the world that you know. The world as it was in Canada at the start of of the twentieth-first century. It exists now only as part of a neural-interactive simulation that we call the housing bubble. You've been living in a dream world. This is the world as it exists today.... Welcome to the Desert of the Realtor.

https://twitter.com/jesse_kleine/status/1707868854607597924?t=W_wD4acPsZcQuYZz72ldWQ&s=19

This guy also defended his nazi grandfather who was a guard at a concentration camp once

# ? Sep 30, 2023 19:10

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

Dreylad posted:

It's kind of funny watching this whole thing play out in the media because for once one a historical subject the lack of nuance is actually appropriate here, and the attempts to bring "some nuance" to the episode comes off again and again as people whitewashing a nazi. Meanwhile there's enough coverage that accepts the fact the guy was a nazi, the Liberals already scrambled to cover their idiocy in spite of a gaggle of dumbass journalists, who probably think the highest calling of journalism is countering Russian propaganda, running cover for this wretched man.

quote:

One thing is certain. There is much evidence in the historical record that some of the officers who oversaw the Galicia Division had brutal backgrounds. Jochen B�hler, director of the Vienna Wiesenthal Institute for Holocaust Studies, said the division�s involvement in war crimes is still disputed, and is currently �under prosecutorial investigation in Poland.� But there�s no room for nuance, he said.

�In the opinion of the Vienna Wiesenthal Institute for Holocaust Studies, the honouring of a member of the [Galicia Division] for his membership in this very organization is to be condemned in the strongest terms, because in our eyes it implicitly trivializes the Holocaust,� he said. Mr. Rota, the former Speaker, has said that he was not aware of Mr. Hunka�s background when he invited him to Parliament.

A military historian who testified at the 1986 inquiry, however, says conflating those Ukrainian volunteers with Nazis is a mistake that ignores the geopolitical reality of Eastern Europe during the war.

The Germans considered the Ukrainians as a lesser race to be used only as �cannon fodder� against the advancing Soviets, said Lubomyr Luciuk of the Royal Military College of Canada. Mr. Hunka�s generation thought supporting a Ukrainian army division, even one led by Germans, was a step toward independence after years of foreign occupation, he said. �They weren�t motivated by antisemitic ideology, they weren�t motivated by support for the Third Reich. No Ukrainian could be a �Nazi� because you had to be an Aryan. They were Slavs,� Prof. Luciuk said. �They did this because they saw it as a way to secure their independence.�

Prof. Luciuk says a disinformation campaign in the 1970s by Soviet agents in the West, called Operation Payback, portrayed the Ukrainian veterans as Nazi sympathizers, in order to sow division between the Jewish and Ukrainian diasporas striving for independence for Ukraine.

In Canada, meanwhile, members of the Ukrainian community have worked to rehabilitate the reputation of members of the Galicia Division as war heroes, and have celebrated their exploits, erecting monuments to them in Edmonton and Oakville, Ont.

On the one hand, Holocaust expert says "nuance" is inappropriate (I would have liked to seen the direct quote, but I suppose the author ran out of room). On the other, guy with no ulterior motives whatsoever claims that it's literally impossible for any Ukrainian to have been a "Nazi", held antisemitic feelings, or supported the Third Reich.

# ? Sep 30, 2023 19:21

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

Holy poo poo "no ukranian can be a nazi because ukranians weren't Aryans" is an incredible take.

# ? Sep 30, 2023 19:31

DaysBefore: Jan 24, 2019

eXXon posted:

On the one hand, Holocaust expert says "nuance" is inappropriate (I would have liked to seen the direct quote, but I suppose the author ran out of room). On the other, guy with no ulterior motives whatsoever claims that it's literally impossible for any Ukrainian to have been a "Nazi", held antisemitic feelings, or supported the Third Reich.

Lol vyelkin or whoever called it, they're spinning the BS 80s inquiry as proof of clean records

# ? Sep 30, 2023 19:37

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

Sorry I'm

ing up this page, but I wonder what the Soviet archives say about Operation Payback because a cursory glance at the literature has its existence attributed to Professor Luciuk.

# ? Sep 30, 2023 19:41

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tristeham: Jul 31, 2022

Lusuck

# ? Sep 30, 2023 19:52

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [canada] I don't need to take lessons on marginalized people. I'm ITALIAN!

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