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Charliegrs posted:Yeah I really never understood the "Ukraine support is bipartisan" in the US Congress idea that so many people say. I It is bi-partisan. The Ukraine funding is being held hostage by both the Dems and the Republicans to try to get what they want on other issues and a government shutdown is one of the tools of leverage.
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Sep 30, 2023 21:05
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D-Pad posted:The majority of the GOP caucus is not against further aid to Ukraine. They weren't willing to fight for it in these circumstances, but the majority still support it and will most likely vote in the future for further aid. That being said the majority probably aren't super gung-ho and can easily flip in the future if the republican sentiment continues its current trend, but for now the majority are still on record as supporting continuing assistance to Ukraine. https://twitter.com/mattgaetz/status/1707726278835450020?s=20 https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1708186379551719743
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Sep 30, 2023 21:17
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Moon Slayer posted:Looks like the US government won't shut down, at the cost of this round of Ukraine aid money, which will be stripped from the Continuing Resolution so it can be approved by both the House and Senate. Don't ask me what this actually means for Ukraine in the short or medium term but I'm guessing not much as more aid will be passed in the future. Proof that Putin only needed a small number of GOP in his pocket
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Sep 30, 2023 21:23
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:Proof that Putin only needed a small number of GOP in his pocket He already has all of their leadership in his pocket. But they will only take calculated risks, as Ukraine support *was* very popular. If people rally support again, GOP will pay the price (as will democrats who waned) notwithoutmyanus fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Sep 30, 2023 |
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Sep 30, 2023 21:50
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Britain going in the opposite direction https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1708223134640251020 "could" is doing a lot of work there, but that seems like a pretty big deal if it happens.
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Sep 30, 2023 21:56
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Cant believe the MIC didnt send their best and brightest amounts of money and schmoozers to get ukraine funding over the line. Most of that money would have gone directly to the mic as equipment buy to ukraine or as replenishing us stocks. Cant imagine raytheon et all shrugging at all of the money.
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Sep 30, 2023 22:01
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notwithoutmyanus posted:He already has all of their leadership in his pocket. But they will only take calculated risks, as Ukraine support *was* very popular. If people rally support again, GOP will pay the price. If they are all in Putin's pocket, it follows that they don't care about risks unless Putin tells them to care. Seems unlikely.
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Sep 30, 2023 22:03
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Chalks posted:"could" is doing a lot of work there, but that seems like a pretty big deal if it happens. Probably needs some talks with Erdogan too, but usually Turkey has been supportive of grain exports for not only unselfish reasons, so it might not be the biggest obstacle.
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Sep 30, 2023 22:06
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ukraine funding isn't over. they can just pass more ukraine funding later, like they did last week. keeping it out of the CR is theatrics. gaetz crew won't have the votes to block a Ukraine bill independent from the CR
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Sep 30, 2023 22:09
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Chalks posted:Britain going in the opposite direction There is broad support for arming Ukraine in the UK, and it's part of the UK trying to show it's still a big relevant international player post-Brexit. Reguardless of what the US does, UK and broader EU support for Ukraine probably won't change.
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Sep 30, 2023 22:10
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Told ya there'd be a bunch of doomposting. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 30, 2023 22:14
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DancingMachine posted:https://twitter.com/mattgaetz/status/1707726278835450020?s=20 Good reading comprehension. As I said in my post they aren't supporting it when all this other stuff is involved but if separated out from all this other drama the majority of the GOP still support Ukraine funding. This is not the end of funding for Ukraine and in the future a straight up and down vote will pass.
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Sep 30, 2023 22:24
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Lol at quoting Matt Gaetz on anything. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 30, 2023 22:26
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Does Britain currently have ships in the black sea?
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Sep 30, 2023 22:48
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I am not sure how much escort ships will help if Russia keeps bombing Ukrainian ports anyway.
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Sep 30, 2023 22:53
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D-Pad posted:Good reading comprehension. As I said in my post they aren't supporting it when all this other stuff is involved but if separated out from all this other drama the majority of the GOP still support Ukraine funding. This is not the end of funding for Ukraine and in the future a straight up and down vote will pass. I think it's fair to say that it's seriously in question now. Gaetz's assertion is technically incorrect--the caucus still broadly supports Ukraine aid and there's nothing stopping a future Ukraine funding bill from advancing to the floor if a majority of GOP reps support it at that time. But in practical terms, it's been proven that a majority of the GOP are willing to sacrifice Ukraine over funding the government, which may be basically the same thing. As long as there are a dozen or so single issue Putin boosters in the House they can continue to hold funding bills hostage. They (or at least their handlers) are smart enough to know that Ukraine is back on the table as soon as a mid-range funding bill passes, so they're not going to let one pass.
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Sep 30, 2023 22:56
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OddObserver posted:I am not sure how much escort ships will help if Russia keeps bombing Ukrainian ports anyway. I imagine they'd have some ability to intercept missiles too which will make their flight paths more complex at least. Depends what they consider the scope of their mission I guess. Defending shipping could reasonable include shooting down missiles targeting the port that shipping is in. Chalks fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Sep 30, 2023 |
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Sep 30, 2023 22:58
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D-Pad posted:Good reading comprehension. As I said in my post they aren't supporting it when all this other stuff is involved but if separated out from all this other drama the majority of the GOP still support Ukraine funding. This is not the end of funding for Ukraine and in the future a straight up and down vote will pass. An up or down clean vote would pass but GOP leadership isn't going to bring such a bill to the floor because it divides their caucus. They have a rule that they won't bring bills to the floor that don't have majority support from within their party. To make a more specific prediction: I don't believe McCarthy will allow a clean Ukraine funding bill to get a vote. If such a bill happens it probably involves other turmoil with house leadership. Hope I'm wrong, but folks in this thread pretty consistently underrate the depth of rot in the GOP and the depth of dysfunction in US legislative process.
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Sep 30, 2023 23:00
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the holy poopacy posted:willing to sacrifice Ukraine over funding the government I mean, it may be a hot take, but ... I kinda agree that the government of the US should prioritize funding the US government over pretty much anything else?
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Sep 30, 2023 23:03
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Moon Slayer posted:I mean, it may be a hot take, but ... I kinda agree that the government of the US should prioritize funding the US government over pretty much anything else? Well, yes, but realistically there's no material limitations to doing both; it's only an issue because Russia's stooges have chosen to create one. (To wit, they have literally chosen to make not aiding Ukraine a bigger priority than funding the US government, directly contrary to your statement.)
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Sep 30, 2023 23:21
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Moon Slayer posted:I mean, it may be a hot take, but ... I kinda agree that the government of the US should prioritize funding the US government over pretty much anything else? Not to get into US political structures so much, but bear in mind these funding bills do not actually need to exist. The whole reason they function like this is because it allows conservatives in the US to create just this sort of "pick one" framing and deteriorate government functions- including foreign aid.
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Sep 30, 2023 23:39
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It's not like this CR bill really matters for Ukraine funding. Most of the funding is done outside of CR, this is just a "well might as well" thing.
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Sep 30, 2023 23:42
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Ukraine aid still holding up the vote in the Senate. https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1708250168854810744?t=L9T_5exv_-C9SVEv2U5r9Q&s=19 https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1708247913808175139?t=n7QkTTSQF4cWB5U5SyOVOg&s=19 E: https://twitter.com/kaylatausche/status/1708254137303925140?t=p3ReBB7amoQRjI5jGQO73g&s=19 Moon Slayer fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Sep 30, 2023 |
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Sep 30, 2023 23:52
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Moon Slayer posted:Ukraine aid still holding up the vote in the Senate. Sounds like no money, just words.
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Oct 1, 2023 00:17
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DancingMachine posted:An up or down clean vote would pass but GOP leadership isn't going to bring such a bill to the floor because it divides their caucus. They have a rule that they won't bring bills to the floor that don't have majority support from within their party. The idiot caucus just gave up most of what Republicans USUALLY demand in concessions over $300M in Ukraine aid, what do you think they're going to do over a $24b stand-alone bill? Usually this type of thing could also get resolved by party leadership threatening to torpedo members' district pet projects, but that doesn't work when dealing with members that don't care about governing and think humiliating McCarthy and showing they can get away with anything is its own goal. OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Oct 1, 2023 |
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Oct 1, 2023 00:38
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Lots of little details in this politico piece that strongly imply Ukraine money is going to happen, and soon, but separately: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/30/biden-administration-congress-government-shutdown-deal-ukraine-aid-00119296 It’s all a mess, but hardly the end of the road for US financial support for Ukraine.
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Oct 1, 2023 00:40
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Sounds like no money, just words. https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1708290532684824584
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Oct 1, 2023 02:25
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Does Britain currently have ships in the black sea? No, but it could be a reference to either naval aviation or (imo more likely) simply providing technical advice.
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Oct 1, 2023 02:37
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I mean, "we promise to pass that later pinky swear " has been a Lucy football move on a lot of things lately.
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Oct 1, 2023 02:59
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Those things don't get put on the official schedule though.
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Oct 1, 2023 03:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I mean, "we promise to pass that later pinky swear " has been a Lucy football move on a lot of things lately. I mean if that tweet is correct it's already been passed by the house and the Senate is fully onboard for more funding so if it's on the schedule it'll get passed.
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Oct 1, 2023 03:25
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https://twitter.com/SecBlinken/status/1707826104759705760 from yesterday, but extremely not thrilled blinken is doing actual holocaust denialism with this poo poo. A shitload of soviet POWs were killed in Babyn Yar and the soviets loving brought journalists to the site of the massacre almost immediately! the only way I can make any sense of the "buried" line is that the soviets only included secular memorials of the massacre rather than ones specifically for jews or romani, which is utter nonsense. and that's not even getting into the fun parts of "accountability" considering operation paperclip
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Oct 1, 2023 06:45
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It looks like a populist anti-EU party Smer, with pro-Russian leader Robert Fico has won the Slovakian elections. Of course, they still need to form a coalition. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ndroidApp_Other
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Oct 1, 2023 07:30
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A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/SecBlinken/status/1707826104759705760 That's not holocaust denialism. Blinken is quite correct in his statement that some 34000 Jews were killed initially at Babi Yar on 29 and 30 September 1941. Others were killed there subsequently, but he is clearly referring to the initial killings. The Soviet preference to avoid mentioning that particular victims were killed *because they were Jews* but merely to call them "peaceful Soviet civilians" has been a problem for some, much like some Poles prefer to emphasize the 'Polishness' of victims killed as opposed to any 'Jewishness'. If nothing else I refer you to the following comment from Wikipedia: Wikipedia posted:This meant that both Jewish and Roma peoples were not specifically memorialised at the Babi Yar site until the Soviet Union collapsed. Indeed, Yevgeny Yevtushenko's 1961 poem on Babi Yar begins "Nad Babim Yarom pamyatnikov nyet" ("Over Babi Yar there are no monuments"); it is also the first line of Shostakovich’s Symphony No. 13. quote:No monument stands over Babi Yar. In summary, the Soviet deliberate avoidance of the fact that the Holocaust was primarily and overwhelmingly aimed at the extermination of European Jews is indeed burying the issue. They weren't killed for being Soviet citizens, they were killed for being Jews. For anyone who has an interest in learning more I may suggest Inga Clendinnen's book "Reading the Holocaust" as a starter. It will give you pointers to additional sources up to Hilberg and others. https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/inga-clendinnen/reading-the-holocaust/ Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Oct 1, 2023 |
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Oct 1, 2023 07:34
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Aren't these issues with the GOP and Ukraine aid what the new Lend Lease thing was passed last year to circumvent?
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Oct 1, 2023 08:58
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Rust Martialis posted:That's not holocaust denialism. Blinken is quite correct in his statement that some 34000 Jews were killed initially at Babi Yar on 29 and 30 September 1941. I don't want to get into a settling of debts (of dead people) but the erasure of the non-jews killed in the massacre is why i called it denialism. the holocaust killed far more than just jewish people, though they were obviously the primary ones to be victimized
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Oct 1, 2023 09:55
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A big flaming stink posted:I don't want to get into a settling of debts (of dead people) but the erasure of the non-jews killed in the massacre is why i called it denialism. the holocaust killed far more than just jewish people, though they were obviously the primary ones to be victimized This implies that talking about the erased Jewish deaths automatically erased the non-Jewish deaths, since Blinken was specifically talking about how the Soviet Union officials were hiding that the dead were Jews...
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Oct 1, 2023 10:03
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A big flaming stink posted:I don't want to get into a settling of debts (of dead people) but the erasure of the non-jews killed in the massacre is why i called it denialism. the holocaust killed far more than just jewish people, though they were obviously the primary ones to be victimized In my experience the argument that people don’t focus enough on the non-Jewish victims of the holocaust and world war 2 is advanced by proto- holocaust deniers who aren’t quite ready to say the quiet part aloud. The next step is “and anyway there weren’t nearly as many Jews killed as everyone thinks” followed by “…if any. I mean how would they have…[etc]” (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 1, 2023 11:12
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The Artificial Kid posted:In my experience the argument that people don’t focus enough on the non-Jewish victims of the holocaust and world war 2 is advanced by proto- holocaust deniers who aren’t quite ready to say the quiet part aloud. The next step is “and anyway there weren’t nearly as many Jews killed as everyone thinks” followed by “…if any. I mean how would they have…[etc]” I wonder what this has to do with the war in Ukraine?
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Oct 1, 2023 11:25
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A big flaming stink posted:I don't want to get into a settling of debts (of dead people) but the erasure of the non-jews killed in the massacre is why i called it denialism. the holocaust killed far more than just jewish people, though they were obviously the primary ones to be victimized He was *specifically* referring to the killings of Sept 29-30, 1941 - "82 years ago". On those *specific* dates, it was some 34000 Jews, and *only* Jews, that were killed. I have not seen any source material claiming otherwise. You apparently thought Blinken was referring to *all* the killings at Babi Yar. He clearly wasn't. Calling Blinken a Holocaust denier for not mentioning killings of Roma/Sinti at Babi Yar on 29-30 September 1941 makes no sense, because none of them were killed there on those dates. Again, if you have a source saying otherwise, post it.
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Oct 1, 2023 11:25
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