Kchama posted:

This implies that talking about the erased Jewish deaths automatically erased the non-Jewish deaths, since Blinken was specifically talking about how the Soviet Union officials were hiding that the dead were Jews...

Cpt_Obvious posted:

The soviets mourned the Jews as fellow countrymen while the Polish government helped build the ovens even though Hitler's lebensraum explicitly targeted Polish and Soviet citizens for slavery and extermination.

Alan Smithee posted:

mourned doing some heavy lifting here

quote:

During the years 1942-1945, Soviet media frequently reported about the events at Babi Yar, its victims being officially defined as Jewish, Ukrainian, Russian, whereby the considerable number of Roma victims was excluded.[1] Soviet leadership did not place any emphasis on the Jewish aspect of the Babi Yar tragedy; instead, it presented these atrocities as 'murder of peaceful Soviet people' in general, including the Jewish population into the wider Soviet people.[2] The first draft report of the Extraordinary State Commission (Чрезвычайная Государственная Комиссия), dated December 25, 1943 was officially censored in February 1944 as follows:[3]
Draft version
"The Hitlerist bandits committed mass murder of the Jewish population. They announced that on September 29, 1941, all the Jews were required to arrive to the corner of Melnykova and Dorohozhytska streets and bring their documents, money and valuables. The butchers marched them to Babi Yar, took away their belongings, then shot them."
Published version
"The Hitlerist bandits brought thousands of civilians to the corner of Melnykova and Dorohozhytska streets. The butchers marched them to Babi Yar, took away their belongings, then shot them."

The publishing of the ethnical makeup of the Babi Yar victims was not forbidden, only the size of victims among the civil population was not to be mentioned in mass media.[4] After 1945, following a push for recognition by Jewish intelligentsia, the Soviet government allowed for monuments emphasizing the Jewish character of Nazi victims.[5]

Cpt_Obvious posted:

The soviets mourned the Jews as fellow countrymen while the Polish government helped build the ovens even though Hitler's lebensraum explicitly targeted Polish and Soviet citizens for slavery and extermination.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

The soviets mourned the Jews as fellow countrymen while the Polish government helped build the ovens even though Hitler's lebensraum explicitly targeted Polish and Soviet citizens for slavery and extermination.

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Well to be fair the Soviets only agreed to let the Nazis occupy half of Poland.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

The soviets mourned the Jews as fellow countrymen while the Polish government helped build the ovens even though Hitler's lebensraum explicitly targeted Polish and Soviet citizens for slavery and extermination.

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Well to be fair the Soviets only agreed to let the Nazis occupy half of Poland.

ethanol posted:

as somebody who lost an entire branch of the family in poland can i say this convo is incredibly depressing and cpt obvious is a moron

EasilyConfused posted:

notwithoutmyanus posted:

Oof. I, raised Jewish, don't even know that much about the details of the Soviet side but got lucky that my families from Poland and Russia somehow avoided the tragedies of WW22 (apparently they hosed off to Argentina and America, some after WW1). However, I don't know poo poo about anything outside of basic mainstream Holocaust knowledge.

Is there a thread or any other recommended reading in addition to the book cited to learn a bit more and understand just wtf happened in WW2 from the Holocaust perspective? So that I, the ignorant American, can gain perspective? PM is fine. All I ever heard growing up was the 6 million jews and saw yad vashem, but I clearly never learned about 90% of the rest.

Rust Martialis posted:

Actually I'll give a reading list a shot. There may be good ones out there - the US Holocaust Museum probably has some suggestions. Or Yad Vashem.

ethanol posted:

you can start with this

https://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6a865c.html

i encourage you to read about the history of jews in russia outside of the holocaust. it's about antisemitism in russia for centuries and the government turning around and using them when it was convenient and in their self interest, for a very limited number of years.

OddObserver posted:

"Jews in Russia" is something of a bad formulation given the Pale of Settlement meant that Jews in Russian empire were largely restricted to places other than Russia proper, like Ukraine, Belarus, and Poland [1]. While Soviet Union did not have that restriction, by WW2 demographics still largely reflected that, and of course all those places were fully occupied... (Some people were evacuated, like my Grandmother).

[1] And of course it's important to point out that a crazy amount of anti-Semitism towards Jews in Ukrainian land was from Ukrainians...

ethanol posted:

and how did the demographic of people who were let back in Russia do post 1945 when all of those countries were USSR

notwithoutmyanus posted:

Oof. I, raised Jewish, don't even know that much about the details of the Soviet side but got lucky that my families from Poland and Russia somehow avoided the tragedies of WW22 (apparently they hosed off to Argentina and America, some after WW1). However, I don't know poo poo about anything outside of basic mainstream Holocaust knowledge.

Is there a thread or any other recommended reading in addition to the book cited to learn a bit more and understand just wtf happened in WW2 from the Holocaust perspective? So that I, the ignorant American, can gain perspective? PM is fine. All I ever heard growing up was the 6 million jews and saw yad vashem, but I clearly never learned about 90% of the rest.

notwithoutmyanus posted:

Is there a thread or any other recommended reading in addition to the book cited to learn a bit more and understand just wtf happened in WW2 from the Holocaust perspective? So that I, the ignorant American, can gain perspective? PM is fine. All I ever heard growing up was the 6 million jews and saw yad vashem, but I clearly never learned about 90% of the rest.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

The soviets mourned the Jews as fellow countrymen while the Polish government helped build the ovens even though Hitler's lebensraum explicitly targeted Polish and Soviet citizens for slavery and extermination.

Hannibal Rex posted:

We have a history book thread, and Cyrano is a bona fide historian of WW2/post-WW2 Germany.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3458502

It really depends on how you want to approach this, but nothing has quite as visceral an impact as a survivor account. Primo Levi's If This is a Man was really memorable for me. Levi was a chemist, and he combines analytical observation with philosophical musings on human nature, as he recounts the horror of the camps, and how different people tried to cope and survive.

If you'd rather have a more detached overview about what the lastest scholarship on the why and how of the Holocaust says, ask in the book thread, people there can give you some good recommendations.

Rust Martialis posted:

It's more like the Soviets preferred to group all "victims of fascism" together for ideological reasons. The Nazis certainly went after 'Bolsheviks' as hard as they could. I've never concerned myself too much with why the USSR preferred to consider the dead as Soviet citizens first and foremost. Likewise some Poles prefer to consider the dead of Birkenau, for instance, as Polish, ahead of considering them Jews.
I just sort of consider it a mix of nationalism, victim-ism, and some degree of anti-Semitism. But that's not based on anything I've read up on.

The Holocaust wasn't about killing Poles or Soviets. It was about the elimination of the Jews and the Roma/Sinti. The fact they were Polish or Soviet (or French, Dutch, Hungarian, etc.) citizens was immaterial.

Paladinus posted:

If anyone's interested in how attitudes towards Jews and Jewishness changed during the Soviet era, and especially Stalin's role in those changes, but maybe intimidated by the more in-depth academic works on the subject, as a good broad-strokes primer, I can recommend Leonid Parfenov's three-part documentary Russian Jews. It's in Russian, but someone uploaded a subtitled version that on my cursory examination looks translated fairly well.

Part I (Before the Revolution) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfN3yQJxe8E
Part II (1918-1948) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2dgWV63GMc
Part III (After 1948) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyQjKnbE5Y

quote:

as somebody who lost an entire branch of the family in poland can i say this convo is incredibly depressing and cpt obvious is a moron

Dopilsya posted:

gently caress you.

MikeC posted:

DeepState, a pro-Ukr mapping and OSINT group has essentially called the '23 Summer Offensive a bust. It's tough to say otherwise. This tweet has the best translated english text I could find from the telegram post.

https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1708389571157803077

MikeC posted:

DeepState, a pro-Ukr mapping and OSINT group has essentially called the '23 Summer Offensive a bust. It's tough to say otherwise.

Mulva posted:

Let me try:

They took back a lot of land, never got pushed back anywhere for long, and have radically stepped up attacks in Russia itself. There is nothing on the horizon that seems likely to improve Russia's situation, and there's nothing in the immediate future that is going to make Ukraine stop attacking.

gently caress were you expecting, them to be marching into Moscow by now?

Fuligin posted:

Probably they were hoping they'd reach Tokmak or otherwise breach the Russian lines, op

quote:

Russia is scaling back its use of the feared Ka-52 attack helicopter after Ukraine got good at taking them out: ISW

quote:

When a Ukrainian tanker with the callsign 'Kochevnik' ran into problems with his captured Russian T-72B3, he called Uralvagonzavod tech support in Russia. And incredibly, the help line actually helped.

Mulva posted:

Let me try:

They took back a lot of land, never got pushed back anywhere for long, and have radically stepped up attacks in Russia itself. There is nothing on the horizon that seems likely to improve Russia's situation, and there's nothing in the immediate future that is going to make Ukraine stop attacking.

gently caress were you expecting, them to be marching into Moscow by now?

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

From what I recall, Ukraine, US, Europe, etc. wanted one strong push towards the Black Sea that they thought this would have been possible by the Fall. Obviously, it's not happening now.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

The soviets mourned the Jews as fellow countrymen while the Polish government helped build the ovens even though Hitler's lebensraum explicitly targeted Polish and Soviet citizens for slavery and extermination.