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FrancisFukyomama posted:do military war games also use hexes and unit chits the way our shut in nerd war games do I took part in a big wargame with like 50 participants that was apparently run by ex-military people, and we still used hex and counters, it was a '89 cold war gone hot game
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Oct 2, 2023 16:59
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It was pretty cool, I played a staff officer, the commanders didn't have direct access to the map, only people that actually physically moved units could, and there was a raised, railed off area above the map, so in order to show troop positions to my CO I had to take pictures with my phone and could only show them that lots of miscommunication, but the fog of war was interesting
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Oct 2, 2023 17:02
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Tekopo posted:It was pretty cool, I played a staff officer, the commanders didn't have direct access to the map, only people that actually physically moved units could, and there was a raised, railed off area above the map, so in order to show troop positions to my CO I had to take pictures with my phone and could only show them that This sounds rad. If you're into TTRPGs as well and have a tolerance for academic texts I really highly recommend The Elusive Shift as a work that draws a direct line from wargaming game runners like this to the continuing debates over the roles of GMs in tabletop RPGs.
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Oct 2, 2023 17:09
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Lostconfused posted:Yes all the real life fascists are socialists in Kaiserreich, unless they're national populists(socialists). my favorite is that syndicalist france is basically an unpopular anarchist oligarchy at the top of a state trying desperately to protect their business-owner friends from the bloodthirsty leninist masses. and i dont think they even intended it to come across as anarchists being literal bourgeois dictators, but it sure is what i took away from their wiki page
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Oct 2, 2023 17:10
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Tekopo posted:Some of them do, some of them don't, really depends on the scope, scale and how detailed you want to be Yeah, there’s so many types of these. As part of my training I took part in a wargame that aimed to simulate actual on the ground operations, so we had no chits or tokens, as that wasn’t a goal, but were expected to submit our orders in writing in the form they’d be submited IRL. If I wanted to activate a civil defence unit, I had to know who to address, in what form and which legal dociments to append to the order form.
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Oct 2, 2023 17:30
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FrancisFukyomama posted:do military war games also use hexes and unit chits the way our shut in nerd war games do It depends. Using hexes makes life easier for the umpires. If you use actual relief maps, or a sand table, you have to evaluate if movement is possible, how long it takes etc. Hexes simplify and regularize (?) things. Mokotow posted:Yeah, there’s so many types of these. As part of my training I took part in a wargame that aimed to simulate actual on the ground operations, so we had no chits or tokens, as that wasn’t a goal, but were expected to submit our orders in writing in the form they’d be submited IRL. If I wanted to activate a civil defence unit, I had to know who to address, in what form and which legal dociments to append to the order form. Exactly, it’s mostly about the staffwork, generating movement orders, how they are interpreted etc.
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Oct 2, 2023 17:36
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A practice session before it's game time.
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Oct 2, 2023 17:43
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Lostconfused posted:A practice session before it's game time. Every practice ends with your team losing but then deciding it doesn't matter either way because you can just blow up the whole stadium if it happened irl
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Oct 2, 2023 17:53
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Yes but the point of the practice isn't about who wins or loses but actually going through the motions. It's a warm up, the results aren't the important part.
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Oct 2, 2023 17:54
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Ok so it's more like finding out half your team doesn't know how to kick a ball at all but deciding it's fine because the other team will definitely be worse and also you can blow up the stadium
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Oct 2, 2023 17:56
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It doesn't matter. Your team is your team, that's all you have. At least they got kick the ball a bit, so you hope they might kick it a bit better when it's happening for real.
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Oct 2, 2023 17:59
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Well, let’s just work through a Tactical Decision Game on CAJ, as a thread, and you can see how it works Decision at the Blue River You are Officer Commanding (OC) I Company (Coy) Combat Team (Cbt Tm), 2nd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment Battle Group (2 RCR BG). You have two organic mechanized infantry platoons and headquarters as well as an attached, operational control (OPCON), Leopard 2 troop (4 x Leopard 2) from C Squadron of The Royal Canadian Dragoons (RCD) and a forward observation officer (FOO) / forward air controller (FAC) party from The Second Regiment Royal Canadian Horse Artillery (2 RCHA). Your third mechanized infantry platoon has been detached, OPCON, to C Squadron, RCD. 2 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group (2 CMBG) has been operating in Atropia for three months. Following successful defensive operations, the brigade (bde) is back on the offensive. Donovian forces are withdrawing to what is assessed to be a main defensive area in vicinity of the regional capital. Covering their retreat is a rear guard that is utilizing delaying tactics to buy time for the main body to establish the main defensive area. This rear guard is estimated to be a task organized battalion tactical group (BTG) made up of three motorized rifle companies equipped with BMP-2M and a tank company with T-72B. This BTG likely also has its own artillery, air defence, antiarmour, and electronic warfare units. It is assessed that the BTG will attempt to take maximum advantage of the Blue River to impose heavy delays on the bde by forcing and then disrupting a deliberate crossing operation. It is assessed the enemy will attempt to defend on both sides of the river, and reconnaissance assets have confirmed the presence of motorized platoon-sized elements at battle group objectives (BG Obj) 1 and 2. Commander 2 CMBG is looking to rapidly seize crossings over the Blue River and establish a bridgehead on the far side to allow the Multinational Division Commander to commit a US Army Armored Brigade Combat Team (ABCT) to continue the pursuit of the enemy and give them as little time as possible to make defensive preparations. To do this he has tasked 1 RCR and 2 RCR each to seize two crossings, establish a bridgehead, and conduct a forward passage of lines with the ABCT. The RCD BG will be in reserve to exploit success and to establish the bridgehead on the far side of the river. The coalition has achieved local air superiority for this offensive but is very cautious in the use of close air support due to the adversary’s localized point air defence systems and man-portable air defence systems. The Commanding Officer of 2 RCR (CO 2 RCR) intends to simultaneously seize BG Objs 1 and 2 with infantry heavy combat teams allowing him to dominate the crossings and the far bank with fire followed by the seizure of BG Obj 3 by the C Sqn Cbt Tm. He will pass C Sqn through whichever crossing is seized first. His end state sees both crossing points secure, C Sqn Cbt Tm occupying BG Obj 3, and the BG prepared to initially pass the RCD BG followed by the ABCT. His main effort is C Sqn Cbt Tm seizing BG Obj 3. To accomplish your task, you decide to execute a very shallow left flanking with a fire base provided by your attached troop of four tanks (1 Tp). 1 Tp is tasked to support by fire, 7 and 8 Platoons (Pl) are tasked to destroy enemy in the vicinity of BG Obj 1. Upon the dismount, your light armoured vehicle (LAV) captain will assume control of your LAVs and get them oriented to the north of the Blue River while you You and OC H Coy coordinated your H-hours so they are staggered by ten minutes allowing you to receive support from 2 RCHA before they switch their utlsupport to Hotel Company (H Coy). The CO was concerned that he wanted his attacks to be simultaneous to overload the enemy’s ability to respond but accepted that ten minutes was a sufficiently short window. At 0700h your FOO establishes surveillance on BG Obj 1 from a turret down position, adjusts rounds of fire and then calls fire for effect with a suppression mission against what appears to be a motor rifle platoon, dug in, in hull down positions. With rounds effective on the enemy position, 1 Troop occupies their support by fire position. The troop leader delivers the fire orders for a troop shoot and four Leopard 2 tanks expose their gun barrels and let loose with a volley of 120 mm sabot rounds. Two of the rounds impact what appears to be a dummy position, another flies over the turret of a BMP and the fourth hits the middle BMP and shears its turret off, sending it spinning into the air. It is now 0705h and your LAVs depart their attack position and cross the line of departure. The remaining BMPs now pop multi spectral smoke for cover, playing havoc with the tank and LAV sights. What can be made out is that the BMPs appear to be backing out of their prepared positions and moving down into the low ground toward the crossing site. You continue your assault towards BG Obj 1 frustrated that the enemy appears to be getting away and notice that there is a continuous hiss coming from your headset in your ear, almost as if someone were sitting on their press-to-talk switch on the BG Command net. You arrive on BG Obj 1 and confirm that the enemy has successfully escaped; however, they left many of their dismounted infantry who are in no mood for a fight and quickly surrender. Your LAV Capt rapidly orients your LAVs to the north and engages the fleeing motorized rifle platoon, destroying an additional vehicle. It is now 0720h, and H Coy should have commenced their attack ten minutes ago. The sounds coming from the east indicate that there is an intense fire fight going on and you can catch broken pieces of conversation on the radio (Call Sign 0 [C/S 0]) which makes it sound like H Coy is heavily engaged. While you can’t understand what is being discussed, a few minutes later, you recognize the voices of the CO and OC C Sqn on the BG Command net. You try to raise the CO to report your situation but can’t get through. It is now 0725h and your gunner elbows your leg. He indicates you ought to check your day site and when you do, you see what appears to be a large dust cloud billowing up from behind BG Obj 3. What Now Major? In five minutes determine what your COA will be. Your response should be in the form of direction to your subordinates, a diagram, and any reports you would attempt to send to higher levels.  Solutions
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Oct 2, 2023 18:45
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I'm planning to use some of my spare time over the next weeks to start following up on what I said here:my dad posted:I think I might (at some point) post an AAR for a certain 30 player Dominions 5 game that lasted for over a year IRL (almost two years IIRC), of which I participated in about half the turns before having to sub out of despite being the strongest player due to IRL stuff. It's amazing how far you can get by just on bluffing about your strength after you somehow blundered into winning an unwinnable fight and build up actual strength off of it. Would it be OK if I posted it in this thread? There's not really enough material for its own thread, but there's going to be a lot to talk about, including some basic explanations of the game and its mechanics and a lot of goon politics.
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Oct 2, 2023 19:05
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i will consider allowing it
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Oct 2, 2023 19:42
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Frosted Flake posted:Well, let’s just work through a Tactical Decision Game on CAJ, as a thread, and you can see how it works Too long, did read I don't normally read stuff like this so idk how representative it is, but what I found interesting about the solutions is that the risk of rushing the crossing and securing the objective point (fwiw this immediately felt 'right' to my gamer brain that doesn't play with people's lives) seems idk, minimized? Like points out that doing a conservative crossing or splitting up to secure the river and aid the other company won't really achieve the higher level objective even if it goes well because it gives the enemy time and space to do their own thing and it's effectively a minor defeat. But it seems like irl if you took the risky option and it went wrong, your entire unit would be defeated in detail, with half of it permanently lost, and the enemy would achieve their goals handsomely by stopping the offensive in it's tracks. And then I think about the interpersonal, institutional meta-strategy ie if you pick the conservative option and it all works out ok, you'll at worst get a talking-to for throwing away a potential chance at a big win. Otoh if you take the gamble and fail, a bunch of people die and even if you personally make it out you might face some heavy consequences. Which I think is a calculus that is lost in the simulation but has a huge effect irl and why some officer corps have a reputation for daring while others are considered conservative, it's conditioned by the whole sociopolitical makeup of the army and by extension the state itself.
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Oct 2, 2023 23:18
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Frosted Flake posted:Well, let’s just work through a Tactical Decision Game on CAJ, as a thread, and you can see how it works Isn't this the plot to an episode of Sharp?
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Oct 3, 2023 00:47
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Slavvy posted:And then I think about the interpersonal, institutional meta-strategy ie if you pick the conservative option and it all works out ok, you'll at worst get a talking-to for throwing away a potential chance at a big win. Otoh if you take the gamble and fail, a bunch of people die and even if you personally make it out you might face some heavy consequences. Which I think is a calculus that is lost in the simulation but has a huge effect irl and why some officer corps have a reputation for daring while others are considered conservative, it's conditioned by the whole sociopolitical makeup of the army and by extension the state itself. Now you understand war games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNLdw9CUgE
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Oct 3, 2023 00:52
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Typo posted:the officer in charge of the wargame literally just changed the dice rolls that said the Japanese carriers got sunk by the attacking airplanes lol it rhymes
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Oct 3, 2023 01:02
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I read the first few lines of FFs post and learned I'm in command of Canadians. Given what we all learned recently I'm pretty sure the optimal outcome is to get as many of them killed as possible.
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Oct 3, 2023 01:58
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Orange Devil posted:I read the first few lines of FFs post and learned I'm in command of Canadians. Given what we all learned recently I'm pretty sure the optimal outcome is to get as many of them killed as possible. Good news about the rest of the exercise
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Oct 3, 2023 02:44
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Orange Devil posted:I read the first few lines of FFs post and learned I'm in command of Canadians. Given what we all learned recently I'm pretty sure the optimal outcome is to get as many of them killed as possible. Operational Breef: 17 Armoured Infantry Battalion "Fusiliers Princess Irene," 13 Light Brigade, Dutch Army Officer Commanding (OC) A Company (Coy) Combat Team (Cbt Tm), 17 Pantserinfanteriebataljon Fuseliers Prinses Irene Current Date und Time: 0725h Location: Atropia, vicinity of BG Obj 1 Force Composition: Two organic armoured infantry companies from A Coy, 17 Pantserinfanteriebataljon Fuseliers Prinses Irene, und headquarters. Attached Leopard 2 troop (4 x Dutch Leopard 2) from a Dutch armoured formation. Forward observation officer (FOO) / forward air controller (FAC) party. Your third armoured infantry company (C Coy) has been detached, operational control (OPCON), to the Dutch Leopard 2 Squadron. Situation: 13 Light Brigade has been operating in Atropia for tree months. Donovian forces are vitdrawing, covered by a rear guard comprised of a battalion tactical group (BTG) with BMP-2Ms und T-72Bs. De Commander of 13 Light Brigade aims to seize river crossings rapidly und establish a bridgehead to allow a U.S. Army Armored Brigade Combat Team (ABCT) to continue de pursuit. Mission: You haf decided to execute a shallow left flanking attack supported by your attached Leopard 2 troop. This troop is tasked with supporting by fire, while your 1st und 2nd Armoured Infantry Companies from A Coy are tasked with destroying de enemy in de vicinity of BG Obj 1. Your YPR-765 PRI 25 AIFV captain will assume control of de vehicles und orient dem north of de Blue River after your forces dismount. You've coordinated with OC B Coy for staggered H-hours to enable artillery support transition from your objectives to B Coy. At 0700h, your FOO begins fire missions against a dug-in motor rifle platoon. Your Leopard 2 tanks commence firing und partially neutralize de enemy. Your YPR-765s proceed toward BG Obj 1 under a smokescreen deployed by de retreating enemy at 0705h. Current Situation: You arrive at BG Obj 1 by 0720h. De enemy has retreated but has left many dismounted infantry who surrender. Your YPR-765s engage de retreating enemy while being oriented to de north. B Coy appears to be heavily engaged to de east based on de radio chatter. A large dust cloud is visible behind BG Obj 3 at 0725h. Immediate Actions: Re-establish secure communications und report your situation to de CO und OC B Coy. Reorient your organic fire support assets und prepare for possible enemy counter-moves. Monitor de dust cloud behind BG Obj 3 for signs of enemy activity or reinforcements.
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Oct 3, 2023 02:48
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Making them Dutch isn't an improvement in the maybe I should act like Luigi Cadorna department
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Oct 3, 2023 03:10
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Und is German. Dutch is en. Anyway having read everything the most objectionable part to me is the assertion that defeat is a psychological state in the debrief. It makes sense at first glance, but then runs into the same problem as The Secret and that kind of bullshit that states good things will happen to you if you just send out good vibes. Because it implies that if you get cancer that's kinda your own fault for not sending them good vibes. So if you get defeated, you just didn't harden your psychological resolve enough. You should have just Willed harder. Material analysis doesnt factor into it apparently and oops now we're into Nazi territory. Which makes sense cus they are the idiots NATO let write their doctrine manuals. Anyway I'm no general or anything, but still pretty sure that defeat means becoming unable to accomplish your objectives. Demoralization might cause that, but so can getting blowed the gently caress up. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out what exactly thia dumb bullshit has lead to in Ukraine.
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Oct 3, 2023 03:23
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Orange Devil posted:Und is German. Dutch is en. Yeah that made me raise an eyebrow a bit, cause you can have fanatics with sticks and stones who can't form meaningful resistance but still want to fight - they're defeated in practice but not psychologically. Granted that's hardly the norm. Likewise, it's taken as a given that the infantry left behind just surrender cause what else can you do? But there were loads of times on the eastern front where things like that would happen and those guys still fought tooth and nail. Maybe that's projection ie NATO troops would immediately give up in that situation because they generally just don't care enough to fight to the death so it must be universally true? I'm now picturing a flipped situation where those guys get nominally sacrificed in order to draw in the BCT and defeat them against the river bank with a big group of armour, if they know that's the plan in advance then they might hold out for a bit and try get themselves some medals. Slavvy has issued a correction as of 03:45 on Oct 3, 2023 |
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Oct 3, 2023 03:42
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Isolating my companies during an opposed river crossing because only timidity can defeat me, not those BMPs and T-72s. You’re right, and right about Ukraine from what’s leaked out. At every step of planning, only one Russian reaction seems to have been considered  It didn’t occur to anyone that they might stand and fight and there does not seem to have been a plan, or material superiority, to handle it if they did. And that’s built into Defeating The Russian BTG. The BTG is not materially overcome, the irregular infantry screen runs away and the undefeated, basically unengaged artillery, armour and Motor Rifles on BMPs must pull back too. What happens if Russia mobilizes and the screen consists of Motor Rifles on BMPs? Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 03:45 on Oct 3, 2023 |
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Oct 3, 2023 03:43
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Frosted Flake posted:Isolating my companies during an opposed river crossing because only timidity can defeat me, not those BMPs and T-72s. Slavvy posted:Likewise, it's taken as a given that the infantry left behind just surrender cause what else can you do? But there were loads of times on the eastern front where things like that would happen and those guys still fought tooth and nail. Maybe that's projection ie NATO troops would immediately give up in that situation because they generally just don't care enough to fight to the death so it must be universally true? Lol you
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Oct 3, 2023 03:47
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Slavvy posted:Lol you It’s interesting. It’s considered “reinforcing failure”, because the mission to prevent the enemy from crossing the river failed. However, a lone company crossed, it makes all the sense in the world to fight like hell to expel them, as you said happened all of the time crossing the dozens of north south rivers from Moscow to Berlin. At worst, buying time for the rest of the defending force to make it out is preferable to surrender and losing the entire battalion, brigade, division. At best, it seems to me they could have seriously ruined that company’s day, it would probably be worth a shot for them to try their luck to expel them. I’m curious about this because I was not trained to be a manoeuvre guy but a towed battery officer so over and over again the emphasis was “No Canadian gun has ever been lost to the enemy” “Anti-tank drill over open sights” “Stand to the guns until the crews are shot down” “Blow the guns when overrun and fix bayonets”. Which, to tie to the Ukraine thread, reflects the institutional memory of horse towed foot artillery where escape was not an option in the face of overrun, and even the horse artillery would have to stand by the guns if the teams of horses lost too many of their horses. Traditionally there was also little if any quarter for overrun gun crews, so hand to hand fighting at the gun position was life or death, until relieved. You would think the infantry guys have the Thin Red Line at Balaclava drummed into them, or forming square in Egypt and the Sudan. It seems reasonable that if we would go down colours flying to let the rest of the formation escape, the enemy would too. Therefore sending a lone unsupported company to bound a river on the assumption the enemy runs away is just setting them up to make a heroic last stand of their own, with the river to their back and all.
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Oct 3, 2023 03:59
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It's not even clear if the enemy has a mission to prevent the river being crossed. Their objective is to delay as much as possible. That's not failed as long as they are in the field and significant elements have not reached the main defensive area the rest of their force is trying to build up.
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Oct 3, 2023 05:32
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Frosted Flake posted:They're mostly planning exercises so people can develop the skills of staff work. The actual scenarios, whatever, mostly it's about testing doctrine. Does everyone follow doctrine predictably so actions are coordinated even if communications break down? Does doctrine help rapid planning in a fluid situation? How quickly are orders written and passed along? How are orders interpreted? etc. Frosted Flake posted:Exactly, it’s mostly about the staffwork, generating movement orders, how they are interpreted etc. Frosted Flake posted:It's because, particularly when the media is there, demonstrating that you're a bold, risk taking, go-getter is a smarter career move than playing conservatively and "losing". lol the dude who wrote the "not all SS" article yesterday doesn't understand wargames https://twitter.com/KeirGiles/status/1708783730901361015
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Oct 3, 2023 12:02
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A little too on the nose by Paradox here 
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Oct 3, 2023 16:54
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Frosted Flake posted:A little too on the nose by Paradox here lmfao
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Oct 3, 2023 16:57
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This just goes back to the previous Hearts of Iron 4 discussion where all of the diplomacy in the game is handled through focus trees and the diplomacy tab is pretty much useless.
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Oct 3, 2023 16:59
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Hello I would like to purchase some diplomacy please
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Oct 3, 2023 17:21
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You'll have to wait 70 days.
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Oct 3, 2023 17:22
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rename diplomacy subtab to "marketplace of ideas" go long on fascism
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Oct 3, 2023 19:01
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Lostconfused posted:You'll have to wait 70 days. or 35
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Oct 3, 2023 19:27
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I know it's not the traditional type of games this thread talks about but are there any modern tactics games like tactics ogre, triangle strategy, old school fire emblem that aren't complete crap?
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Oct 3, 2023 19:57
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AnimeIsTrash posted:I know it's not the traditional type of games this thread talks about but are there any modern tactics games like tactics ogre, triangle strategy, old school fire emblem that aren't complete crap? Is XCOM 2 an acceptable response Alternatively, Second Front
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Oct 3, 2023 22:57
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Came here to post XCOM 2
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Oct 3, 2023 23:03
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I didn't care for Second Front. It gets the ASL system right I suppose, but it's really difficult. Like, I've been around the block a bit but I couldn't even finish the first scenario.
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Oct 3, 2023 23:04
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