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No one respects or trusts the national media, yet another group of people whose opinion is massively overvalued.
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Oct 2, 2023 21:19
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Mustang posted:Why do the Dems care if the GOP gets angry at being accurately described as Nazis? Their voters aren't going to ever vote Democrat, so have a spine and just call a spade a spade. Jesus Christ, caring about "decorum" in 2023 is just incredibly pathetic. IMO, being hyperbolic and condescending in this way is just going to help push people further right. And it's not like that talking point is going to result in any positive outcomes, so why use it? Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Oct 2, 2023 |
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Oct 2, 2023 21:24
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"Mr. Speaker, is it true that you have Nazis in your party, as Rep. Bowman claims?" That platform gives McCarthy the opportunity to downplay the hard right elements in his caucus, right when he needs to score some points with them. Mustang posted:No one respects or trusts the national media, yet another group of people whose opinion is massively overvalued. This is just incorrect. Kalit posted:IMO, being hyperbolic and condescending in this way is just going to help push people further right. And it's not like that talking point is going to result in any positive outcomes, so why use it? For many people, it's the radical rhetoric they want, not the outcomes. That partially, I think, explains Trump's success at capturing such a solid voting block. But it's a terrible way to run a country. zoux fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Oct 2, 2023 |
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Oct 2, 2023 21:25
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Eh, it's already being run horribly.
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Oct 2, 2023 21:30
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Mustang posted:Why do the Dems care if the GOP gets angry at being accurately described as Nazis? Their voters aren't going to ever vote Democrat, so have a spine and just call a spade a spade. Jesus Christ, caring about "decorum" in 2023 is just incredibly pathetic. AIPAC has been openly signaling their intention to recruit a primary challenger against Bowman, who sits in a district with a significant population of Democratic-voting Jewish people who have been quite unhappy with his stances on Israel, as well as plenty of local moderate Dem leaders who'd love to team up with AIPAC to see a progressive like him ousted. That's a situation where he'd want to be extremely careful about how and when he uses words like "Nazi". While I personally think it's an accurate descriptor, I can appreciate that he'd prefer to avoid getting into a public argument with AIPAC on the campaign trail about the definition of the word "Nazi" and the contexts in which its use is appropriate.
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Oct 2, 2023 21:44
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Bowman trying to distract from pulling a fire alarm by (rightly) calling out Nazis as being Nazis just makes me like him more
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Oct 2, 2023 21:51
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Kalit posted:IMO, being hyperbolic and condescending in this way is just going to help push people further right. And it's not like that talking point is going to result in any positive outcomes, so why use it? How is it hyperbolic? Red states are bending over backwards to make life as difficult as possible for anyone that isn't white, straight, christian, and conservative. They're about to vote for Trump for a third loving time despite 90+ felonies and having his supporters sack the capital while trying to overturn an election that he lost. zoux posted:This is just incorrect. Doesn't look that way to me.  https://knightfoundation.org/reports/american-views-2023-part-2/
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Oct 2, 2023 21:52
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Mustang posted:
This chart isn't saying what you think its saying. Everyone thinks the media is out to get their [Candidate/Party/Sports Team] and people don't trust them to tell the RIGHT story. They still set the story and how to discuss issues.
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Oct 2, 2023 21:59
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Froghammer posted:Bowman trying to distract from pulling a fire alarm by (rightly) calling out Nazis as being Nazis just makes me like him more Unless you live in NY-16 it doesn't matter. What MP pointed out was that the people who do live in NY-16 might have an opinion on calling people Nazis, and so does Rep. Bowman, since he came sprinting out of the gate to disavow that language. Mustang posted:How is it hyperbolic? Red states are bending over backwards to make life as difficult as possible for anyone that isn't white, straight, christian, and conservative. I also don't respect or trust national media, that doesn't mean that media narratives don't mean anything. The idea is absurd. quote:Red states are bending over backwards to make life as difficult as possible for anyone that isn't white, straight, christian, and conservative. While you might consider these people Nazis, 95% of Americans would not. Many would in fact be offended by it, even staunch Democratic voters. Which is why you don't go around calling everyone a Nazi all the time, and why Bowman is explicitly saying he did not authorize nor does he agree with the sentiment. Mooseontheloose posted:This chart isn't saying what you think its saying. Everyone thinks the media is out to get their [Candidate/Party/Sports Team] and people don't trust them to tell the RIGHT story. They still set the story and how to discuss issues. I'd also be interested to see it broken down by general opinion and opinion of the respondents' own preferred source of news media, I imagine its similar to approval ratings for Congress as a whole vs. constituents opinion of their own rep. zoux fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Oct 2, 2023 |
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Oct 2, 2023 22:00
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Mustang posted:How is it hyperbolic? Red states are bending over backwards to make life as difficult as possible for anyone that isn't white, straight, christian, and conservative. It sounds like you're describing bigotry, not nazism
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Oct 2, 2023 22:03
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zoux posted:While you might consider these people Nazis, 95% of Americans would not. Many would in fact be offended by it, even staunch Democratic voters. Which is why you don't go around calling everyone a Nazi all the time, and why Bowman is explicitly saying he did not authorize nor does he agree with the sentiment. Setting nazi aside for fascist… I’d be interested in seeing what the polling actually was regarding voters who think the GOP are fascists is. I think it’s much higher than 5% now. It would also very much depend on the wording of the poll.
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Oct 2, 2023 22:07
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I often wonder what % of the American public can even define fascist.
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Oct 2, 2023 22:08
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Setting nazi aside for fascist… I would bet that Republicans would overwhelmingly claim that Democrats are fascist and vice versa.
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Oct 2, 2023 22:09
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zoux posted:I would bet that Republicans would overwhelmingly claim that Democrats are fascist and vice versa. The republicans woll claim the democrats are fascist and socialist all at once
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Oct 2, 2023 22:11
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socialsecurity posted:I often wonder what % of the American public can even define fascist. ...can *you*? Defining fascist on terms other than 'I know it when I see it' is actually pretty difficult, lol.
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Oct 2, 2023 22:13
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Yeah, again speculating, but I think what most people think "fascism" is is just vanilla authoritarianism. I'm fine with it as shorthand since it doesn't really matter outside of a poli sci class, but socialists and fascists can both be authoritarian John Ganz had a very good substack article last year centered on "When is fascism Fascism" that's worth a read. (Ironically it was in response to a twitter question from Nate Hochman, who is a capital-F fascist)
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Oct 2, 2023 22:13
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Kalit posted:It sounds like you're describing bigotry, not nazism Tomato tomahto. Fascism is just the end point of extreme bigotry.
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Oct 2, 2023 22:15
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The GOP doesn't hesitate to throw around fascist and Nazi when describing Democrats but I don't see a similar effort at backpedaling from them when they do it so I have a hard time caring if a Democrat calls a Republican a Nazi. I mean poo poo, DeSantis' campaign had an ad that featured Nazi imagery. Even though they fired they guy, am I really supposed to think that was just a coincidence? Or the CPAC stage looking drat near identical to a Nazi symbol? Or the Republicans that refuse to condemn white supremacy or even acknowledge right wing domestic terrorism? Just seems utterly loving ridiculous to give a poo poo about some offhand comment by a Democrat when there is the entire cesspit of the modern GOP to be concerned with.
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Oct 2, 2023 22:17
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zoux posted:I would bet that Republicans would overwhelmingly claim that Democrats are fascist and vice versa. With my family in Florida the discussion is the line at which what is happening becomes enough to have to leave the state. There is a substantial difference between the right’s use of the term (which is rhetorical only) and anyone center to left using the term to describe actual actions of a state and political party. Basically when the right uses it, it means bad. When my sister uses the word fascism to talk about the Florida GOP, the meaning carried by its use reflects her actual experiential situation. Right now she has trans students. Right now she would be fired if she called them their preferred genders or preferred names. She has her own work arounds to not dead name then or misgender them. Right now places I camped growing up in my home town (Venice,FL) are places right wing radicals are training with firearms and running radicalizing seminars and events. Right now a counterinsurgency specialist is organizing group of radicals to take over local government (in the same place) when there are opportunities to win elections (school board City etc) along with getting majorities on local not for profit boards. So we use the word fascist when talking about the GOP to each other, it’s not merely rhetorical. It’s referring a state organizing state power against the other. It’s violent political militarism working towards an end of bigotry and racism. So I think it’s possible to write a poll to find out what percentage thinks the GOP is fascist and means actually fascist and I think that number is higher than 5% of the public.
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Oct 2, 2023 23:00
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:...can *you*? Defining fascist on terms other than 'I know it when I see it' is actually pretty difficult, lol. we had that discussion here several times during the Trump years with me and others attempting to subscribe to something generally along the lines of Eco's fascist minimum I think the general consensus came down as "a fair proportion of Republicans are fascist, Donald Trump is probably fascist, the main argument that he's not is that he's too stupid and self centered to have a clear ideology but if that were a disqualifier a lot of people historically universally acknowledged as fascists wouldn't count" one of the main characteristics of fascism is an aesthetic of violence for its own sake and you can't tell me that doesn't describe some reactionaries
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Oct 2, 2023 23:13
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“Why doesn’t everyone just do what I want and never say they don’t like me” is both a very low-effort thought and fascist as hell
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Oct 2, 2023 23:16
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Conservatives are like playground bullies: If they can't find something to make fun of you for, they will invent something out of whole cloth. The solution to this is to give them a black eye, then they won't try it again.
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Oct 2, 2023 23:45
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Kalit posted:IMO, being hyperbolic and condescending in this way is just going to help push people further right. And it's not like that talking point is going to result in any positive outcomes, so why use it? If being called a nazi is all it takes for them to start heiling, they were already nazis.
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Oct 3, 2023 00:02
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Byzantine posted:If being called a nazi is all it takes for them to start heiling, they were already nazis. Notice my use of the words "help push", insinuating it was not an instant transformation.
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Oct 3, 2023 00:11
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Matt Gaetz has officially filed a motion to vacate the chair, which must now be disposed of within 48 hours. Open the blood gates! e: https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1708982867429101606
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Oct 3, 2023 00:17
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Is anything going to come of this if none of the crazies are willing to say they want it?
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Oct 3, 2023 00:19
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I AM GRANDO posted:Is anything going to come of this if none of the crazies are willing to say they want it? Either the HFC looks like feckless, toothless morons, or they follow through. If they follow through, then either McCarthy gets kicked to the curb or he sells the farm to Jeffries to survive. Either way, there's a small but nonzero chance that Gaetz pisses absolutely everybody off enough to get himself ejected after the Ethics Committee reports on all his ethics crimes.
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Oct 3, 2023 00:22
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:...can *you*? Defining fascist on terms other than 'I know it when I see it' is actually pretty difficult, lol. I think I would just defer to  on this one
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Oct 3, 2023 00:23
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I AM GRANDO posted:Is anything going to come of this if none of the crazies are willing to say they want it? What /does/ happen if there are no candidates for Speaker?
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Oct 3, 2023 00:37
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Quorum posted:Matt Gaetz has officially filed a motion to vacate the chair, which must now be disposed of within 48 hours. Open the blood gates! Is there video of this? I can only find his speech earlier today about the secret deal McCarthy made with Biden or whatever.
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Oct 3, 2023 00:42
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The Lone Badger posted:What /does/ happen if there are no candidates for Speaker? there's a succession order floating around where I don't remember the details that gives us an acting Speaker, which is also useful for scheduling and organizing the new-speaker votes
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Oct 3, 2023 00:45
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The Lone Badger posted:What /does/ happen if there are no candidates for Speaker? Oh there’ll be candidates. There are always candidates. The question is what happens when no candidate can get elected vote, after vote, after vote.. Does the sanity caucus of Republicans that still want to govern throw up their hands and vote for Jeffries. Does the HFC get locked in a closet? Will there be shots fired on the house floor? Fist fights? Wedgies? How low will McCarthy go for his ambition? How much popcorn will Fetterman bring to the gallery to eat while he watches the chaos?
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Oct 3, 2023 00:45
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I AM GRANDO posted:Is anything going to come of this if none of the crazies are willing to say they want it? As long as all the Democrats vote against McCarthy or abstain, I think Florida's second creepiest looking representative only needs like 1 other crazy person to take this thing over the cliff.
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Oct 3, 2023 00:46
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Gyges posted:As long as all the Democrats vote against McCarthy or abstain, I think Florida's second creepiest looking representative only needs like 1 other crazy person to take this thing over the cliff. He needs 5. I think he might not have 5, because he waited to submit the motion to vacate for a little long and no other republicans are making loud noises about ousting McCarthy. Gaetz is going to get owned.
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Oct 3, 2023 00:51
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I heard on one of the news podcasts today that the dems had a deal with McCarthy in that if they voted to fund the government McCarthy would do an Ukraine funding this/next week. The impression I got was that if it was a crazy person who took the speakership then there would be no Ukraine funding?
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Oct 3, 2023 00:55
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OctaMurk posted:He needs 5. I think he might not have 5, because he waited to submit the motion to vacate for a little long and no other republicans are making loud noises about ousting McCarthy. Gaetz is going to get owned. He's got like 20. I think we're going to be off the map by Wednesday.
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Oct 3, 2023 01:25
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coelomate posted:He's got like 20. I think we're going to be off the map by Wednesday. Thats how many are in the house freedom caucus, but only three have said anything supportive
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Oct 3, 2023 01:37
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OctaMurk posted:Thats how many are in the house freedom caucus, but only three have said anything supportive https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/10/02/kevin-mccarthy-matt-gaetz/ quote:A person familiar with some hard-right members’ thinking said at least seven Republicans would support Gaetz’s motion, but a dozen more have expressed some grievances about McCarthy. It's fast moving and obviously hard to find a true "whip" count, but that rings true to me.
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Oct 3, 2023 01:44
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I know it's just wikipedia, but here's the first paragraph on neo-nazism:quote:Neo-Nazism comprises the post–World War II militant, social, and political movements that seek to revive and reinstate Nazi ideology. Neo-Nazis employ their ideology to promote hatred and racial supremacy (often white supremacy), to attack racial and ethnic minorities (often antisemitism and Islamophobia), and in some cases to create a fascist state. Which is a highly apt definition of the modern Republican party. Second paragraph; quote:It borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including antisemitism, ultranationalism, racism, xenophobia, ableism, homophobia, anti-communism, and creating a "Fourth Reich". Holocaust denial is common in neo-Nazi circles. So, not specifically the Fourth Reich, but republicans have the rest covered. It might be America's own particular brand of it, but on the whole the Republican party is a neo-nazi party.
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Oct 3, 2023 01:59
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It is important to keep in mind that McCarthy promised everyone everything in his humiliating 15 round Speaker win. Immediately he started responding to people trying to call in their favors by asking where it was written down, while other members got pissed at some of the promises that they didn't get. At the same time, a large portion of the caucus are in districts where they personally will feel no heat for Republicans being in disarray. As long as they sling that raw, bloody, meat they get rewarded for any amount of arson to the party that they commit. They may not be incentivized to directly cause an embarrassing failure to the party/brand by setting up another humiliation gauntlet for Speaker, but they are absolutely not going to be penalized for it. Matt Gaetz isn't the only guy getting repeatedly re-elected despite being a horrendously greasy and disgusting poo poo stain. The Republican House isn't getting anything passed by the Senate and White House. So the calculation isn't what best gets some policy done or raises a disingenuous issue. The questions that 5 Republicans have to ask is simply, do they like McCarthy and, if not, will they be in any way penalized for shiving him in the gut by voting him out as Speaker. We've only got like 1 more year of this Congress anyway, so giving oneself over to Chaos can be enticing. Especially when you believe that you should be throwing monkey wrenches into any available governmental gear, and thus inaction is the best possible outcome of your term. Maybe there's enough non-insane and out of touch rich rear end in a top hat Republican donors calling up Reps to keep Gaetz from getting his 5, however if not we get another shot at most votes to install a Speaker. You can do it, Kevin!
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Oct 3, 2023 02:02
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