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My main memory of Illidan is that he has the dumbest weapons in all of Warcraft. It's like taking four swords and turning them into a pair of brass knuckles you can cut yourself on. The weirdest thing is that technically he represents an interesting opposition to other characters: Power at any cost to defend ourselves vs accepting weakness to ensure that we're still worth defending. It's a classic bit of story writing which more or less always comes down on the second side because we all know there are good reasons some things are considered war crimes(and any fiction that comes down on the former side tends to have very, very odd authors). Though in this case it more or less seems like Illidan is provably right? Obviously not about drinking his fellow Night Elves dry for power, but taking demons' power and using it against them. I don't believe Fel magic is inherently corrupting(if I remember the lore right) and he does seem to have a point that its the only way to weaken them permanently. The only real argument against it seems to be that the people who're into this path seem to love the power more than what they're meant to be doing with the power(protecting others). If anything this all feels like there's an eventual tie-in with the elves that chose to use demonic power to keep the lights on, like they should've been the third path: Eat demons for personal power --- use demons as batteries for everyone's power --- no demon usage at all, just bop them. Maybe if you didn't want to completely upend the campaign, why not have Illidan appear during the orc campaign? Instead of using Jaina's Magic Soul Box, you cut out a few of the filler missions and instead Medivh tells them about Illidan, and that he, with his ability to drink demon power, could sip the demon juice out of Grom and his followers. So Thrall and Jaina go into the depths of the Night Elf Prison Zone, bust Illidan out, he helps them. Then when Tyrande and Malfurion get there, they're all "gasp Illidan is out!!!" [reminder of what his crimes are, that neither Illidan or Medivh decided that Thrall and Jaina needed to know] and then he can do his edgy boy appearance at the start of the next mission. Gun Jam posted:Also, three missions to wake people up? Same length as Arthas in Northrend, or the fall of Quel'Thalas. The "waking up the shamans" should've really just been one big mission, in my opinion.
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Oct 5, 2023 13:27
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WC3 really does read like an extended tutorial for multiplayer, with a "story" slapped onto it. At least when Brutal Legend did it, they made sure the story was good.
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Oct 5, 2023 13:27
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Well, at least the last two missions will have plenty to talk about. e: I do think it's a little funny that Tyrande's thing for this entire campaign is that she will absolutely never try diplomacy. Not for the invaders who are also fighting the burning legion, not for the night elves who stand between her and freeing a power hungry mass murderer, hell not even for her own husband. I get that there's not time for extended diplomatic action with the whole invasion but maybe she could at least say "hey the end of the loving world has broken down our door, stop hiding out in this cave and help". sirtommygunn fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Oct 5, 2023 |
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Oct 5, 2023 13:31
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Lord_Magmar posted:Technically he ripped the portal open and then laser eyed the Naaru. Both of which were pretty cool, interestingly in Legion the only character trying to make Illidan into the perfect ultimate hero who everyone should feel bad for fighting is the Naaru he proceeded to eyeblast. Illidan for his flaws is someone who has grown up over the course of WoW to realize "I am a loving dumbass who made things work by... not just talking to people and getting their buy in on my plans to save the world." He also basically goes in Legion "I am not the one load bearing great person to save the world, we have all these great heroes to go punching the forces of evil. They can handle it." As for guard or not... we don't know on that, we have not heard a peep from the Titans and Illidan when they basically Scorpion grabbed Sarg off the face of Azeroth to have a big ole brawl in the Titan space... government ship thing?
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Oct 5, 2023 13:33
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AtomikKrab posted:He also basically goes in Legion "
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Oct 5, 2023 13:46
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PurpleXVI posted:Though in this case it more or less seems like Illidan is provably right? Obviously not about drinking his fellow Night Elves dry for power, but taking demons' power and using it against them. I don't believe Fel magic is inherently corrupting(if I remember the lore right) and he does seem to have a point that its the only way to weaken them permanently. The only real argument against it seems to be that the people who're into this path seem to love the power more than what they're meant to be doing with the power(protecting others). You know that thing that some writers love of "Here's this warrior cult of ultra-badasses! Only 1% of people are worthy to even try to be one of them, and only 1% of those survive the training!" And how they think that's badass instead of incredibly wasteful and speaks to lovely training programs? That's Illidan's crew. Demon hunters do extremely dangerous magic, and what they do *is* inherently prone to corruption because they're stealing portions of the souls and power of demons, not simply using fel magic. Most demon hunters go insane or die within the first couple years of training. Illidan explicitly takes the point of view that one ultra-powerful badass is worth more than a thousand regular troopers and encourages this mindset and sort of training.
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Oct 5, 2023 13:49
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Cythereal posted:You know that thing that some writers love of "Here's this warrior cult of ultra-badasses! Only 1% of people are worthy to even try to be one of them, and only 1% of those survive the training!" And how they think that's badass instead of incredibly wasteful and speaks to lovely training programs? Clearly the most effective way to prosecute a war is a single amazing wunderwaffen rather than thousands of proven, less-exciting weapons.
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Oct 5, 2023 13:55
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he is one of those characters that suffers tremendously from how cool his authors think he is the assumption is you'll see hey, its Illidan! and immediately be fully invested. the leadin to fighting him in WoW was, in its entirety, 'well I guess he's over there, let's stab im.'
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Oct 5, 2023 13:59
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the assumption is you'll see hey, its Illidan! and immediately be fully invested. the leadin to fighting him in WoW was, in its entirety, 'well I guess he's over there, let's stab im.' And yet they weren't wrong, if there is one constant I've seen in the WoW community before his story ended in legion was "man illidan was the best" and "man every boss in TBC was a waste."
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Oct 5, 2023 14:03
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Cythereal posted:You know that thing that some writers love of "Here's this warrior cult of ultra-badasses! Only 1% of people are worthy to even try to be one of them, and only 1% of those survive the training!" And how they think that's badass instead of incredibly wasteful and speaks to lovely training programs? In fact, , here is one of the best destructions of the concept that I have ever read.
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Oct 5, 2023 14:05
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Siegkrow posted:And yet they weren't wrong, if there is one constant I've seen in the WoW community before his story ended in legion was "man illidan was the best" and "man every boss in TBC was a waste." which is probably what we have to thank for wrath of the lich king turning out as well as it did, because they picked up 'you should probably have a reason to not like the bad guy beyond him being there and stabbable' the list of characters in warcraft three so far is Arthas, Illidan, maybe Kel-Thuzad if you're feeling generous. the rest are the broadest of broad stroke one note entities. Jaina will get some characterization in the expansion but for now is still the lady you're supposed to feel bad got killed, somewhat confused she's still walking around. Illidan is a 90s antihero, which is not a particularly interesting character, but you can do Something with that narratively. the decision to aggressively refuse to do so in TBC was a baffling one.
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Oct 5, 2023 14:15
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I like Illidan as a character. He's pretty consistently trying to do the right thing, but will always break three other things in the process and every step there suspiciously happens to involve him getting more personally powerful. He's too greedy to be a hero, not malicious enough to be a proper villain, just 100% pure Messy Bitch. Surprised people take offence to calling him anime. It's extremely true and also half the fun.
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Oct 5, 2023 14:16
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I remember rumors that, very early on in WoW's development, there were plans for a third player faction led by Illidan(I think there were some very early maps for an Outland starting area too). Considering how much trouble having 2 factions has given WoW over the years, I can only imagine the nightmare that 3 would give. But hey, maybe then the Horde wouldn't be the ones to start it every time.
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Oct 5, 2023 14:24
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Tenebrais posted:Surprised people take offence to calling him anime. My experience is that there's a certain strand of Warcraft fan who has a knee-jerk hatred of anime as a general concept (rather than disliking any specific elements common to anime) and reacts to being told that Warcraft has influences from the 90s anime wave in the West like a vampire being confronted with a crucifix. Like I said, I find Illidan just... forgettable. He does his thing, never really interacts with the rest of the plot beyond being Illidan in ways that directly impact him, and never really grows beyond being an edgy 90s antihero. He's a one-note character and I do not find that note compelling or memorable.
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Oct 5, 2023 14:33
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PurpleXVI posted:My main memory of Illidan is that he has the dumbest weapons in all of Warcraft. It's like taking four swords and turning them into a pair of brass knuckles you can cut yourself on. It's the dumbest weapon I've seen in all of media that's obviously meant to be taken seriously. I abhor the things, when I screwed around with a Dunter in WoW, I always made sure to transmog them into just swords(outside I think there being one artifact model that looks more like bladed tonfa than warglaives). Like, they're trying to communicate he's so strong by using two of these giant dual-bladed swords, used previously by a giant creature. Only, uh... I just see him clanking the things together and stabbing himself in practical use. Other absurdist fantasy weapons, like massive swords or clubs that should be too heavy to swing, or mile-long katanas, don't tend to invoke in me the break of disbelief. I think it's just that I can understand the logic that the anime logic is trying to convey with those, but the warglaives are just a bridge too far for me.
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Oct 5, 2023 15:15
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Tenebrais posted:I like Illidan as a character. He's pretty consistently trying to do the right thing, but will always break three other things in the process and every step there suspiciously happens to involve him getting more personally powerful. He's too greedy to be a hero, not malicious enough to be a proper villain, just 100% pure Messy Bitch. This is a good summary of everything that made Illidan interesting to me, especially in this campaign when he's stacked against Tyrande and Malfurion. Wake up Illidan way earlier in the campaign, or even start with him breaking out as the demons return and his power waxes anew, would provide some good excuses for inter-faction conflict as he Messy Bitches around and causes more problems.
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Oct 5, 2023 15:46
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Illidan's weapons loving rule
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Oct 5, 2023 16:05
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Cythereal posted:Illidammit Reminder that basically all of this was added after WarCraft III. In the WarCraft III manual, Illidans contribution to the fight with Aszhara consisted of telling Aszhara about the incoming attack, and then sneaking out some water from the Well of Eternity once he realized Aszhara was losing.
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Oct 5, 2023 16:07
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Nostalgamus posted:Reminder that basically all of this was added after WarCraft III. Good thing I'm looking at these games and lore in light of the whole series, not just the WC3 manual.
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Oct 5, 2023 16:09
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I'd never made that connection that draining the demon's power would permanently weaken them. That's kind of a neat way to do things, and one of the only possible ways to strike back against an enemy that is otherwise immortal (the other way being imprisonment, but that has many, many potential problems as well). But yeah, taking demons or demonic power into yourself means that you are now fueled by demons, which then is going to eventually lead to your worldview mimicking theirs. It's funny how much of TBC's story I apparently missed out on by not doing the raids. I'm glad they eventually added the looking for raid system so that anyone could actually experience the story/lore even if they didn't want to commit to a raiding guild.
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Oct 5, 2023 16:26
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Cythereal posted:Good thing I'm looking at these games and lore in light of the whole series, not just the WC3 manual. It was more about the fact that WC3 tries to treat him like an anti-hero, while his backstory at the time makes him an irredeemable piece of poo poo. In other notes, you missed The Larget Panda Ever:   Also, Illidan used to have panda faces on his weapons before the remaster: 
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Oct 5, 2023 16:48
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All I recall from Illidan in Legion right now was that the last thing we see is him getting ready to fight... Sargeras? And then we cut to black.
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Oct 5, 2023 17:25
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Nostalgamus posted:It was more about the fact that WC3 tries to treat him like an anti-hero, while his backstory at the time makes him an irredeemable piece of poo poo. the panda faces themselves were a hasty bit of asset swapping, after someone pointed out the symbol on them originally looked VERY similar to a swastika
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Oct 5, 2023 18:08
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Tenebrais posted:I like Illidan as a character. He's pretty consistently trying to do the right thing, but will always break three other things in the process and every step there suspiciously happens to involve him getting more personally powerful. He's too greedy to be a hero, not malicious enough to be a proper villain, just 100% pure Messy Bitch. e: Also, single most fun character to play in Heroes of the Storm - his playstyle consists of quite literally jumping around like a squirrel on cocaine.
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Oct 5, 2023 18:08
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anilEhilated posted:I pretty much agree here, but the main reason I like Illidan is that he's simply fun to have around. (Warcraft 3, no idea about WoW) Furion and Tyrande are both incredibly dull protagonists so having this incredibly cheesy tryhard anti-here is a much-needed breath of fresh air. It is also very much helped by Liam O'Brien hamming it up with the voice lines. which ties into why the night elves are full of wasted potential. the individual elements of Malfurion and Tyrande could make for interesting characters! they're the heads of Definitely Cooperative And Not Rival religious orders, who love one another, but also are driven by very different things! Tyrande gets to be the ruthless pragmatist, whereas Malfurion is more about mediating between weird godlike spirits and their intermediaries. the moment where Tyrande pulls rank to say "thats nice hon we're digging your brother out because he's the biggest gun in the arsenal, bitch about it on your own time" and he's stuck saying "well, I object I guess?" pretty good! you could do things with that! they don't, but they definitely could have!
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Oct 5, 2023 18:22
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the panda faces themselves were a hasty bit of asset swapping, after someone pointed out the symbol on them originally looked VERY similar to a swastika 
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Oct 5, 2023 18:36
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DTurtle posted:You sure about that? After searching for a while, I found a Youtube video showing the first beta version, and it already has the panda: yep. circa 2001, this is what they looked like. https://web.archive.org/web/20010606235004/http://www.warcraftiii.net/units/nightelves/index.shtml which on the one hand, is not a swastika, but on the other hand, is not NOT a swastika, so I can both see why they changed it and why the panda face has a certain degree of malicious "you want something nobody's gonna get mad at? goofy smiling panda. happy now, you whiny little dorks???" to it.
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Oct 5, 2023 18:58
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Well, it sure is increasingly obvious why the Human campaign was the only one I remembered much of anything about: it's because it's the only one that's actually plotted semi-well! The other three campaigns are basically aimlessly faffing around and occasionally hint at something that is a good idea but implement it poorly or not at all. Like, very little is happening, aside from vague allusions to the Legion corrupting the land or something, which we've seen all of once. Why even are the druids stored in completely different places anyway? Why is Malfurion apparently stored completely separately? We've barely even fought the Undead or the Legion!
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Oct 5, 2023 19:03
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:yep. circa 2001, this is what they looked like. Oh that is uncomfortably close to a swastika. It does in fact look like a swastika with a few fancy Norse neopagan flourishes added to it. https://web.archive.org/web/20010620035819/http://www.warcraftiii.net/screenshots/unitart/unitart-042.shtml And the concept art kind of has sonnenrad vibes, which leans into that same feel.
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Oct 5, 2023 19:04
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:yep. circa 2001, this is what they looked like.  Oh. Ok. Wow.
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Oct 5, 2023 19:28
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 Illidans stupidblades have shorter reach than his freaking hands. Also in some artwork you can see demon hunter fingers poking out on the far side, completely exposed just begging to be chopped off. It's fine to like them of course, but they're absolutely terrible. Cythereal posted:
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Oct 5, 2023 19:37
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Racist.
Also this place is mostly water and ice, not flames.
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Poil posted:
Deathwing was around during the War of the Ancients.
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Oct 5, 2023 19:40
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Rhonne posted:Deathwing was around during the War of the Ancients.
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Oct 5, 2023 19:47
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Poil posted:But was he called Deathwing then? The War of the Ancients was when he started calling himself Deathwing publicly.
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Oct 5, 2023 19:53
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I see, thanks. I thought it was during the orc wars. But I might be remembering incorrectly, or it was retconned.
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Oct 5, 2023 19:58
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Poil posted:I see, thanks. I thought it was during the orc wars. But I might be remembering incorrectly, or it was retconned. The War of the Ancients was weird because it was basically two concurrent attempts by different forces to destroy the world (Deathwing and the Burning Legion) and there was a lot of time travel involved.
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Oct 5, 2023 20:10
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Poil posted:I see, thanks. I thought it was during the orc wars. But I might be remembering incorrectly, or it was retconned. Nope. I think he's been calling himself Deathwing since the War of the Ancient when the books about that came out in 2004-2005, so even before WoW came out.
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Oct 5, 2023 20:11
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Illidan's weapons are incredibly stupid, and thus very cool. But his primary fighting style is to dive as deep into the enemy lines as possible and turn into a blender holding them out to either side, rather than in front. Compensating for the fact that being surrounded by enemies is usually a very bad thing via fel powers and supernatural sensory capabilities. You can even see it in his basic combat stance, one blade held in front the other behind, turning his head and chest to swap from fighting on his left to his right and back.
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Oct 5, 2023 20:12
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Lord_Magmar posted:Illidan's weapons are incredibly stupid, and thus very cool. But his primary fighting style is to dive as deep into the enemy lines as possible and turn into a blender holding them out to either side, rather than in front. Compensating for the fact that being surrounded by enemies is usually a very bad thing via fel powers and supernatural sensory capabilities. Also he sets himself on Fire.
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Oct 5, 2023 20:14
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Lord_Magmar posted:Illidan's weapons are incredibly stupid, and thus very cool. But his primary fighting style is to dive as deep into the enemy lines as possible and turn into a blender holding them out to either side, rather than in front. Compensating for the fact that being surrounded by enemies is usually a very bad thing via fel powers and supernatural sensory capabilities. If he spins like a top, he's still not going to get anything done to an enemy. Flip the blade around so that the crescent at least extends past his hands, and he can actually cut something. With the way he's holding his weapons, he can basically only perform the world's worst possible stab (as the weapon is curving away from the victim), or the world's worst slicing attack (where he has to physically charge at the enemy to slice them because the weapon again curves away from the victim). Also, the weapons are much, much more deadly to him than to his opponents because of the way they're curved. I suppose he could try to hug someone to death? He'd still end up hurting himself if he actually succeeded though.
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Oct 5, 2023 20:18
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