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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine: Israel caught with his pants down
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Oct 7, 2023 11:47
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| # ? May 20, 2024 20:18 |
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What an colossal intelligence fuckup. Beggars belief that Hamas were able to plan and conduct something on this scale in total secrecy... Really recommend caution following news about this on Twitter. Lots of NMS content floating about. Its really loving grim and its only going to get worse as time goes on.
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Oct 7, 2023 11:57
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 quite.This is a major coup for HAMAS, If they don't jump the gun and slaughter him they got quite a bargaining chip here.
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Oct 7, 2023 11:59
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Tigey posted:Really recommend caution following news about this on Twitter. Lots of NMS content floating about. Its really loving grim and its only going to get worse as time goes on. 100% this
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Oct 7, 2023 11:59
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So, it seems that Hamas ran a rather elaborate psy-ops operation on Israeli intelligence services and leadership, those guys have been reporting for months now that Hamas is 'dettered' and is looking for calm, Israel has sent brigades away from Gaza to secure settlements in the west bank, even several military drills by combatants in Gaza in recent weeks apparently didn't raise too many alarms, it also seems to be like this whole thing is meticulously timed on a grander strategic level, this is going to be a major hurdle for Biden and MBS's plans to form and alliance, MBS might be willing to throw the Palestinians under the bus but doing so as Israel is butchering civilians in Gaza might be trickier, so, of course the death toll in gaza will be terrible but assuming Hamas holds on to some of its hostages this is already a major victory, Israel will make a show of force but new lines in the sand have been drawn.
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Oct 7, 2023 12:08
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fuctifino posted:100% this On the other hand viewing might be instructive when we have stuff like this Al-Saqr posted:Hopefully its true and palestinians win the day
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Oct 7, 2023 12:23
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Honestly I doubt arab dictators will be deterred from normalization because they view it as paramount to the survival of their regimes, but lets see maybe the blow is big enough that they dont see Israel as the protector they can rely on anymore.
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Oct 7, 2023 12:23
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Question is, to what extent was this co-ordinated with West Bank Palestinians and Hezbollah? If it's Gaza acting unilaterally, I'd expect Israel to eventually regain control of the situation; if they end up fighting on multiple fronts, it all gets a bit more uncertain.
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Oct 7, 2023 12:26
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Israel have been poking the hornets nest with the expansion of settlements and displacements, but nothing justifies attacks on civilians like seem to be happening here.
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Oct 7, 2023 12:46
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Senor Tron posted:Israel have been poking the hornets nest with the expansion of settlements and displacements, but nothing justifies attacks on civilians like seem to be happening here. Israel sure tries to justify them on the reg as long as the civilians are part of the occupied population being genocided.
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Oct 7, 2023 12:53
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It looks like the IDF have levelled at least four residential tower blocks in Gaza without any warning, so civilian atrocities are happening on both sides at the moment
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Oct 7, 2023 12:56
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Bibi is certainly itching for a genocidequote:“Since this morning, the State of Israel has been at war. Our first goal is first of all to cleanse the area of the enemy forces that have infiltrated, and restore security and peace to the settlements that were attacked,” Netanyahu says.
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Oct 7, 2023 13:07
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Hehe, nimrod. As much as I hate seeing the common soldier senseless suffering I am always glad to see higher ups getting comeuppance.
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Oct 7, 2023 13:15
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We're about to have some of the most annoying War propaganda we've ever seen in our loving lives
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Oct 7, 2023 13:18
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Senor Tron posted:Israel have been poking the hornets nest with the expansion of settlements and displacements, but nothing justifies attacks on civilians like seem to be happening here. I think it's worth remembering the 2018 Great March of Return here, where a largely peaceful mass protest at the Gaza border ended with over two hundred deaths and so many injuries that the entire healthcare infrastructure of Gaza was overloaded. This is grim, but it's the reaction that Israel has spent its considerable resources on inviting for years. There's literally no other options left for Palestinians other than to peacefully walk face-first into Israeli guns or go out in the biggest orgy of violence they can accomplish. They tried appealing to the better natures of the rest of the world, and the rest of the world cheerfully looked the other way.
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Oct 7, 2023 13:26
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I just came here to post that exact point. The tweet contains stats: https://twitter.com/broseph_stalin/status/1710597403500495141
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Oct 7, 2023 13:35
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Israel has been killing civilians for years with impunity and no one* caring. It's just they do it with billion dollar donations and high tech weapons that let them have more distance from the killing. It's not good that they're killing civilians here, but once one side starts slaughtering civilians in a war, the other side always does too. That's, theoretically, why you don't slaughter civilians to begin with. Like, rules of engagement and wartime laws aren't made because we all wanna be nice civilized killers to each other with Respect for one another. It's because once one side starts killing medics and civilians and poisoning water, the other side will too, and then it spirals into much worse. Unfortunately, news about Israel war crimes are basically never discussed outside of niche online areas and are hushed in the proper media. I'm almost certain this slaughter will get plenty of air time on all the news network to discuss how horrid it is, with no acknowledgement of it being retaliation. It'll be used to justify sending another billion dollars of missiles over thst will be used on more confirmed-by-israeli intelligence to be civilian hospitals. *online communities excepted.
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Oct 7, 2023 13:37
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https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1710622183670608064 There are a fair few videos of drone attacks on various targets. This is the most work safe one
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Oct 7, 2023 14:17
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Civilian casualties & abuse are to be mourned, regardless of which nation's civilians it happens to. That being said, civilians are never spared during war, there is no clean war; they're all fought with violent and disaffected youths. It's always calculus on if the immediate innocent suffering is worse than the long-term suffering. One might understand why, with Israel on the backfoot and Palestine reclaiming territory for the first time in its history, that some (hopefully not on this site) might be deaf to individual atrocities. For what it's worth, evidently plenty of Palestinians have some patience for Israelis: https://twitter.com/SALHACHIMI/status/1710630531581329493 https://twitter.com/_Hareem_Shah/status/1710619769139847433 But as with any armed force, there's going to be psychopaths.
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Oct 7, 2023 14:18
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Neurolimal posted:Civilian casualties & abuse are to be mourned, regardless of which nation's civilians it happens to. That being said, There is no reality in which any of this is acceptable.
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Oct 7, 2023 14:27
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Let's get the platitudes out of the way, civilians dying is a bad thing and it would be better if it happened less. And hats off to Hamas for the military targets they've taken out. What's impressive in its own way though is that most media sources are going to push a one-sided sympathy narrative even after Israel has already announced that their revenge terrorism is going to be even bloodier. With the apartment bombings in Gaza the civilian death toll on the Palestinian side may already be higher. There are going to be plenty of pictures of bloody kids and old women coming out of those attacks too, no one will give a poo poo and the same people acting so very concerned now are going to be cheering on that slaughter.
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Oct 7, 2023 14:33
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Did you actually read the first part of this. Settlers are not civilians.
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Oct 7, 2023 14:40
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Nucleic Acids posted:Settlers are not civilians. I'm curious how you come to that definition. And what is the age cutoff for it.
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Oct 7, 2023 14:41
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:I'm curious how you come to that definition. And what is the age cutoff for it. Colonialist Settlers who enforce apartheid at gunpoint and stole other peoples homes are not civilians. Hope this helps. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 7, 2023 14:43
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Nucleic Acids posted:Settlers are not civilians. All of what's happening is inside 1949-Israel boundaries. If you're under 80 years old and living in that area, then you're not a settler.
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Oct 7, 2023 14:44
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:I'm curious how you come to that definition. And what is the age cutoff for it. Anyone who chose to live in one of the settlements surrounding Gaza is as much a military target as any IDF member:
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Oct 7, 2023 14:50
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Nucleic Acids posted:Anyone who chose to live in one of the settlements surrounding Gaza is as much a military target as any IDF member: What is your acceptable age cutoff for "innocence."
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Oct 7, 2023 14:52
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Saladman posted:All of what's happening is inside 1949-Israel boundaries. If you're under 80 years old and living in that area, then you're not a settler. Yes you are the people you ethnically cleansed are all alive and can physically see the houses you stole from the giant concentration camp you shoved them into and when they ask to move back you shoot and starve them.
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Oct 7, 2023 14:54
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little does yugi know i have my 'so you approve of child murder' trap card laying in wait. he will have no chance but to accept genocide as a moral imperative! that fool!
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Oct 7, 2023 14:54
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We're in an odd phase of the conflict where Hamas is on the offense and momentarily has the upper hand due to surprise and shock, so most of the war crimes so far will have been inflicted upon the Israelis. This is unusual, so its not a surprise some people - especially with entrenched ideologies - are finding this turnabout difficult to process and coming out with handwringing statements, "Of course war crimes in the abstract are bad, BUT as its the side we are more sympathetic to doing currently doing them, its actually complicated..." However, folks should look at this in the wider context. These opening successes aren't going to last, and Hamas is going to get beaten back. Despite its foreign support it just doesn't have the resources to wage a sustained conventional war. And Palestinian civilians are going to be killed en masse - not just caught in the crossfire, but actively targetted as revenge. So yeah, the current situation where Israelis are the main 'victims' isn't going to last very long, and the eventual number of victims of atrocities and body count is going to be many times higher on the palestinian side. This is going to happen and its incredibly frustrating how inevitable it all is. EDIT (due to slow mode): V BUUNNI posted:what foreign support do the Palestinians have? I was referring to the funding and military assistance (missiles etc) from Iran mainly. Not implying it has widespread international support - just that it does get some support and arms. But not enough to fight a sustained war. Tigey fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 14:54
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Tigey posted:However, folks should look at this in the wider context. These opening successes aren't going to last, and Hamas is going to get beaten back. Despite its foreign support it just doesn't have the resources to wage a sustained conventional war. And Palestinian civilians are going to be killed en masse - not just caught in the crossfire, but actively targetted as revenge. what foreign support do the Palestinians have?
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Oct 7, 2023 14:58
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:What is your acceptable age cutoff for "innocence." Israel has had no problem butchering people of any age since the Nakba and is doing so as we speak, so I don’t think anyone sitting comfortably gets to pearl clutch about national liberation.
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Oct 7, 2023 15:01
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Jezza of OZPOS posted:little does yugi know i have my 'so you approve of child murder' trap card laying in wait. he will have no chance but to accept genocide as a moral imperative! that fool! What exactly do you think Hamas would do to the population of Israel if they defeated the Israeli military. Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 15:02
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Tigey posted:We're in an odd phase of the conflict where Hamas is on the offense and momentarily has the upper hand due to surprise and shock, so most of the war crimes so far will have been inflicted upon the Israelis.  In the coming days. Which isn't to say the same doesn't apply to Israel in the buildup to this.
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Oct 7, 2023 15:04
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there's no future where israel wasn't going to try to brutally and indiscriminately murder palestinians. demanding the palestinians not try to take their country back by force is essentially saying they should calmly accept their continued imprisonment and genocide.
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Oct 7, 2023 15:05
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Tigey posted:This is unusual, so its not a surprise some people - especially with entrenched ideologies - are finding this turnabout difficult to process and coming out with handwringing statements, "Of course war crimes in the abstract are bad, BUT as its the side we are more sympathetic to doing currently doing them, its actually complicated..." For what it's worth I've been pretty consistent on this in other D&D threads. War crimes are awful, civilian harm is awful. They're also going to happen when war occurs (it's a pretty good reason why you should avoid wars & end wars in general), and unless one has taken the tact that all wars, ever, are bad, everyone does the math in their head on if they can accept what's happening. My personal tolerance is "the war is just and the violence is not centrally administrated/tolerated/encouraged". and from there I'd personally prefer the individual monsters be punished. As for Hamas' chances; it's a strange time. Massive quantities of munitions have been sent or are earmarked for Ukraine, US congress is stalled, Hamas is recovering equipment as they advance (as a lot of successful middle-eastern insurgencies have done, Taliban being the most recent), and Israel is demonstrably awful at ground operations. Their biggest asset is their outsized air force, and obviously it's not desirable for them to bomb Israel. They definitely lack the internal industry to keep a proper war going, but the Ukraine war has demonstrated that you can keep going anyways if someone is willing to foot the bill.
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Oct 7, 2023 15:05
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:What exactly do you think Hamas would do to the population of Israel if they defeated the Israeli military. they would use the most pathetically reductive gotcha style debate tactics on them until they killed themselves
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Oct 7, 2023 15:07
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Nucleic Acids posted:Israel has had no problem butchering people of any age since the Nakba and is doing so as we speak, so I don’t think anyone sitting comfortably gets to pearl clutch about national liberation. Dont think "its their turn for war crimes" rhetoric is going to win much in public opinion outside of terminally online circles
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Oct 7, 2023 15:09
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Tigey posted:
I don’t think it’s possible for Iran to fund and arm the Palestinians in the same way the US and the west have armed and funded Israel’s military.
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Oct 7, 2023 15:11
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Al-Saqr posted:Colonialist Settlers who enforce apartheid at gunpoint and stole other peoples homes are not civilians. Hope this helps. Thanks, will keep this in mind for future reference.
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Oct 7, 2023 15:11
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