|
adebisi lives posted:Why does the right wing administration keep winning every election? Because of how they elect over there, and the ineptitude of the opposing parties. You have a super corrupt PM that was ousted, that used the religious right to get back in power even though he'd be considered a centrist in reality compared to any of those assholes...sounds a lil' familiar quote:Netanyahu is the country’s longest serving prime minister, having held office for a total of 15 years, including a stint in the 1990s. After four consecutive inconclusive elections, he was ousted last year by a coalition of eight ideologically diverse parties united by little more than their opposition to his rule. https://apnews.com/article/politics-israel-government-benjamin-netanyahu-west-bank-2aadcdf4de57c54c59e619478bac63dc I could also link to all the protests that happened over his attempted changes on a large scale, including the ones from the military..that actually managed to push back or delay..for now..but "war" is a unifier..this is all a shitshow from every angle
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 08:43 |
|
|
Cugel the Clever posted:Because the Israeli right-wing have waged a decades-long fear-mongering campaign, telling Jews that they'll never be safe and secure as members of multiethnic democracies and must retreat to a militant ethnonationalist Jewish state? There were significant Jewish populations in the middle eastern countries, which had been there since before Islam, and had nothing to do with the founding of Israel, who were nonetheless expelled from their homes by the Arab governments after Israel was founded. I'll assume you're familiar with the history of Jews in Europe. The right wing isn't pulling this fear out of their rear end, most of the Jews in Israel either are or are descended from minority populations who lost their homes in recent history.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:08
|
|
|
i say swears online posted:not really? israel has a pretty fair system that is much more representative of the voters' wishes than the US' system, and has waffled between right-wing secular and right-wing religious governments since Rabin died No, but Likud currently has 32 members in the 120 member knesset. Yet their strongman dominates politics and the party beats the smaller ones into submission. If likud’s position gets weakened somewhat, the other current coalition parties mostly would not care about the hardline poo poo as much. Even Yisrael Beiteinu party will skin Bibi alive the moment they can.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:12
|
|
|
Cugel the Clever posted:Because the Israeli right-wing have waged a decades-long fear-mongering campaign, telling Jews that they'll never be safe and secure as members of multiethnic democracies and must retreat to a militant ethnonationalist Jewish state? And here I was thinking the ultra right wing nationalist are having a rise in Europe and North America, with political parties openly attacking immigrants and using barely coded anti semitism while their supporters chant "Jews won't replace us" in the streets. Nice to now the rise of anti-Semitism and just around Xenophobia happening worldwide is just a right wing Jewish conspiracy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:12
|
|
|
Vahakyla posted:No, but Likud currently has 32 members in the 120 member knesset. it's kind of wild to think that religious exemption from military service is such a large part of what got him back in
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:17
|
|
|
Madkal posted:And here I was thinking the ultra right wing nationalist are having a rise in Europe and North America, with political parties openly attacking immigrants and using barely coded anti semitism while their supporters chant "Jews won't replace us" in the streets. Nice to now the rise of anti-Semitism and just around Xenophobia happening worldwide is just a right wing Jewish conspiracy. What does that have to do with Israel's actions in Gaza and the West Bank for the last 20 years? I'm not saying what you are saying is incorrect, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the conflict there.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:20
|
|
|
i say swears online posted:not really? israel has a pretty fair system that is much more representative of the voters' wishes than the US' system, and has waffled between right-wing secular and right-wing religious governments since Rabin died And even if there was, meretz is still a "this is a Jewish state" party, afaik. They may not want to treat Palestinians like animals, but they're definitely not giving them citizenship. They *may* slightly ease the blockade on Gaza and stop future settlements, but I don't know that they'll opt in for a full on civil war to dismantle the existing settlements.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:21
|
|
|
zer0spunk posted:it's kind of wild to think that religious exemption from military service is such a large part of what got him back in which is a major concession to the ultraorthodox parties. it's a normal coalition government where agreements between parties go both ways. i don't believe netanyahu is bullying smaller parties into submission any more than the largest party in a coalition government in other countries likud does not have the ministry of the interior, but they do have the trifecta ministries of PM, Defense and Foreign so they are dominant, but they're also by far the largest party in the coalition i say swears online fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Oct 7, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:22
|
|
|
have the Palestinians tried voting? Or running for office, perhaps? If their ideas like "we shouldn't have to live in an open air prison", "our children shouldn't be gunned down in the streets by agents of an apartheid government" are so good, surely they would win in the political arena! All of this violence is quite disturbing and I feel that there is no reason, in my humble opinion, to resort to violence like shooting guns and launching rockets even if you believe very strongly in your ideals! What a shame. I hope both sides can quickly come to an amicable agreement.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:22
|
|
|
pro starcraft loser posted:What does that have to do with Israel's actions in Gaza and the West Bank for the last 20 years? Not much but I was replying to the goon saying that Jews worldwide have bought in to some vast conspiracy that Jews aren't in any danger living in any other country in the world.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:25
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Yeah I don't think nations have rights at all. And if I thought national property claims justified violence, I'd be a Zionist. You did not answer the question.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:27
|
|
|
Madkal posted:And here I was thinking the ultra right wing nationalist are having a rise in Europe and North America, with political parties openly attacking immigrants and using barely coded anti semitism while their supporters chant "Jews won't replace us" in the streets. Nice to now the rise of anti-Semitism and just around Xenophobia happening worldwide is just a right wing Jewish conspiracy. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/02/26/how-benjamin-netanyahu-enables-anti-semitism/ quote:This precedent is being pushed to scandalous new extremes by Benjamin Netanyahu and his supporters, who are increasingly allying with anti-Semites and promoting anti-Semitism, even as they cynically claim to be its chief victim. To pull this off, they are redefining “anti-Semitism” to mean opposition to Netanyahu’s policies and “Jews” to mean his supporters. This strategy not only abuses history, it endangers the Jewish people by legitimizing real anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic regimes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:27
|
|
|
i say swears online posted:which is a major concession to the ultraorthodox parties. it's a normal coalition government where agreements between parties go both ways. i don't believe netanyahu is bullying smaller parties into submission any more than the largest party in a coalition government in other countries i agree, this is mutually beneficial..i also, unless i'm mistaken, don't think he has ever had the same stances as the extremes of the religious right..he's just a secular conservative who knows how to play it, and it worked.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:27
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:have the Palestinians tried voting? Or running for office, perhaps? If their ideas like "we shouldn't have to live in an open air prison", "our children shouldn't be gunned down in the streets by agents of an apartheid government" are so good, surely they would win in the political arena! All of this violence is quite disturbing and I feel that there is no reason, in my humble opinion, to resort to violence like shooting guns and launching rockets even if you believe very strongly in your ideals! What a shame. I hope both sides can quickly come to an amicable agreement. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:30
|
|
|
Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:You did not answer the question. I did, you just don't like the answer, which is no. Nations don't have rights. They don't have property rights and they don't have any right to kill people in pursuit of land, whether the land once "belonged" to that nation or not. Palestinians have every right to right to resist a state that's ruthlessly exploiting them by violence and superveillance. It's a very serious mistake to confuse that with nationalist revanchism. Your line of thought really lines up with the more right-wing Zionists I knew growing up. Most of them are less right-wing now. A world of nations where nations have the same rights as people do under liberal capitalism - property, reclaiming property, self-defense - and the good nation is just trying to safely reclaim their stolen property from a violent thief nation. It's very right wing in the way it centers national identity and property, not the welfare or rights of the actual people who have inherited inescapable roles in this violent machine. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Oct 7, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:33
|
|
|
Senjuro posted:Despite how a certain forum likes to portray it, I haven't seen a single post suggesting the Palestinians should refrain from all violence, only to avoid deliberate targeting of civilians. Are you aware military service is compulsory in Israel? It doesn't seem very fair to me that you deserve to be targeted simply because your grandparents moved somewhere and now it is "okay" to kill you because you have been forced into the military. I'm sorry if you believe very strongly in the Palestinian cause but unfortunately violence is never the answer. Personally I'd like to see a reasonable Palestinian party rise to prominence in Israeli government, where they will be able to pass mutually beneficial reforms.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:37
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:Are you aware military service is compulsory in Israel? It doesn't seem very fair to me that you deserve to be targeted simply because your grandparents moved somewhere and now it is "okay" to kill you because you have been forced into the military. Contrary to popular belief, military service is not mandatory in Israel. You can choose to go to jail which is the vastly more moral option, despite being looked down at by most of the Israeli population (because most of the Israeli population is insanely right wing)
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:41
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:Are you aware military service is compulsory in Israel? It doesn't seem very fair to me that you deserve to be targeted simply because your grandparents moved somewhere and now it is "okay" to kill you because you have been forced into the military. Settlements and displacements are ongoing to this day, it's not a distant past thing. It's a bit ridiculous to try to dictate how people with no recourses or options should try to fight back against active genocide at all, but "They should let themselves be killed until the people killing them VOTE to stop killing them." is certainly one of the most unreasonable ones I've heard. Every Israeli settler is actively participating in war crimes, their presence alone is considered a war crime let alone all the indiscriminate murder, hospital bombing, etc done on their behalf. Sure, it'd be much nicer if Israel decided to stop committing genocide and made peace, but if that's not happening.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:45
|
|
|
Miftan posted:Contrary to popular belief, military service is not mandatory in Israel. You can choose to go to jail which is the vastly more moral option, despite being looked down at by most of the Israeli population (because most of the Israeli population is insanely right wing) It's also not compulsory if you're an orthodox settler whose participation in ethnic cleanseing was the proximate cause of said conflict.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:46
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:now it is "okay" to kill you because you have been forced into the military. Lmao. If there's one class of humans on the planet that are most "ok to kill", it's the willing participants of state militaries. If that particular state happens to be engaged in genocide that just makes such acts more congruent with the tenets and principles of international law Failed Imagineer fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Oct 7, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:48
|
|
|
Zeron posted:Settlements and displacements are ongoing to this day, it's not a distant past thing. It's a bit ridiculous to try to dictate how people with no recourses or options should try to fight back against active genocide at all, but "They should let themselves be killed until the people killing them VOTE to stop killing them." is certainly one of the most unreasonable ones I've heard. Every Israeli settler is actively participating in war crimes, their presence alone is considered a war crime let alone all the indiscriminate murder, hospital bombing, etc done on their behalf. Sure, it'd be much nicer if Israel decided to stop committing genocide and made peace, but if that's not happening. i suspect PE's posts -- about how palestinians should simply participate in the liberal democracy they are totally allowed to participate in -- are perhaps not completely unironic
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:48
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites is obviously being sarcastic. This sort of smarmy "well, what else do you expect, there's no alternative" justification for mass murder pops up with every IDF atrocity. I really was hoping to see some discussion without callous cheerleading for the mass murder that'll take place tomorrow, but here it's just callous cheerleading for the mass murder that already took place instead. Most of the posts here are perfectly indistinguishable, in logic and in rhetoric, from the kind of Zionist who believes Peter Beinart is basically a kapo now.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:49
|
|
|
pro starcraft loser posted:Israel doesn't need anything from the US in the same sense Ukraine does. They aren't lacking for ammo or whatever in a short term. It would help to distract from Ukraine in Russia's eyes, which is what many Ukranians believe
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:50
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:Hamas doesn't have any planes or helicopters, but they have allegedly taken down a helicopter(s) with anti-air equipment. No clue if they picked that up themselves or if it was burning a hole in one of the settler bases. The only footage I've seen of this is old recycled ARMA footage that makes the rounds every time there's conflict. Definitely wait for more confirmation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:50
|
|
|
Willo567 posted:It would help to distract from Ukraine in Russia's eyes, which is what many Ukranians believe No doubt it'll distract in terms of news and stuff, but I don't think anything will change from a support standpoint.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 18:55
|
|
|
I am talking through this with a few friends and they are having trouble getting their head around how this is strategically beneficial for Palestinians but am I wrong to suggest it is more about Hamas further cementing their own leadership and demonstrating to their "constituents" that they are able to execute reprisals?. To me this will only embolden more violent and explicit retaliation and I don't see the US or other allies even scolding Israel for it. In the last "counter" attack against Gaza they blew up an apartment building and people could hardly be mad for more than a week. Now with the bodies in the streets I feel like it'll lead to even more wanton destruction.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:01
|
|
|
Miftan posted:Contrary to popular belief, military service is not mandatory in Israel. You can choose to go to jail which is the vastly more moral option, despite being looked down at by most of the Israeli population (because most of the Israeli population is insanely right wing) I see. Surely the conscientious objections of these men and women have done a great deal to dissuade the Israeli state from engaging in acts of what must be clearly unpopular aggression. Perhaps the Palestinians can learn from their example, and not resort to this awful indiscriminate violence! Zeron posted:Settlements and displacements are ongoing to this day, it's not a distant past thing. It's a bit ridiculous to try to dictate how people with no recourses or options should try to fight back against active genocide at all, but "They should let themselves be killed until the people killing them VOTE to stop killing them." is certainly one of the most unreasonable ones I've heard. Every Israeli settler is actively participating in war crimes, their presence alone is considered a war crime let alone all the indiscriminate murder, hospital bombing, etc done on their behalf. Sure, it'd be much nicer if Israel decided to stop committing genocide and made peace, but if that's not happening. I'm sorry, but violence is never acceptable. As Israel is a democratic state it is incumbent upon the Palestinians to utilize the nonviolent vehicle of democratic politics to argue for their cause. The first thing they ought to do is raise awareness of their situation by nonviolent means. One idea could be to hold a nonviolent demonstration or march at a regular time, perhaps every Friday, for instance. That would go a long way to informing Israelis that Palestinian voices are being under-represented in Israeli politics. Failed Imagineer posted:Lmao. I'm sorry but it is inappropriate to "lmao" at the idea of people being killed, even (perhaps especially!) if you disagree with them. If your grandparents moved to Israel and you were forced into the military (or face jail time), how could it be "your fault", and thus make you "ok to kill" (a hideous string of words to even write). I personally believe that no one is "ok to kill", least of all people who were not able to choose where they were born or if their government was going to force them to spend time in military service!
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:01
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:Are you aware military service is compulsory in Israel? It doesn't seem very fair to me that you deserve to be targeted simply because your grandparents moved somewhere and now it is "okay" to kill you because you have been forced into the military. That's only one of the many reasons Israelis get targeted. It really sucks, and a lot of the tactics being used are atrocities. If I'm going to blame anything it's the government. It's their job to ensure their populace is protected.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:02
|
|
|
I really don't think Russia has any significant involvement here....as someone brought up, Israel had not really supported Ukraine much at all so it wouldn't make sense for Russia to provoke Israel by funding Hamas. This is clearly Israel getting played by Hamas by itself. Maybe with support of Hezbollah? Not sure.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:02
|
|
|
Understanding why hamas is the way they are is not the same as condoning the actions. But yeah if you effectively force the fifth most densly populated portion of the world into what amounts to an open air prison for decades, its not surprising that when they lash out, they do so viciously. Not sure I would call that cheerleading, but it is like "Things that were obviously going to happen for 100".
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:03
|
|
|
hey goons, regardless of where you stand we can all agree that children don't deserve to suffer because of violence. you can donate here to the Palestine Children's Relief Fund, which sends medical personnel/supplies to Palestine, builds hospitals and clinics, and also evacuates Palestinian kids to the West so they can get medical treatments not available in Gaza/the West Bank. It has a good charity rating and was endorsed by jimmy carter so the money goes where it's supposed to go. I hope we can all take a second to open our hearts and wallets to ease the suffering of innocent children. https://pcrf1.app.neoncrm.com/forms/general
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:04
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:I see. Surely the conscientious objections of these men and women have done a great deal to dissuade the Israeli state from engaging in acts of what must be clearly unpopular aggression. Perhaps the Palestinians can learn from their example, and not resort to this awful indiscriminate violence! I know a lot of Zionists who sound like you - the endless sarcastic mockery of anyone who thinks mass murder is awful - and it's not less obnoxious on this flavor. If you think that what happened today did or didn't accomplish something positive, you should just say so, if you think these people did or didn't deserve to die,.you should just say so. But it's obnoxious to pretend anyone here doesn't realize that every nonviolent attempt to prevent or resist colonialism in Palestine has ultimately failed. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Oct 7, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:05
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:I'm sorry but it is inappropriate to "lmao" at the idea of people being killed, even (perhaps especially!) if you disagree with them. If your grandparents moved to Israel and you were forced into the military (or face jail time), how could it be "your fault", and thus make you "ok to kill" (a hideous string of words to even write). I personally believe that no one is "ok to kill", least of all people who were not able to choose where they were born or if their government was going to force them to spend time in military service! Fair enough. For the avoidance of doubt, I shouldn't have typed "lmao" but it was directed at the absurdity of your position, rather than at the idea of people being killed. I'm pretty sure (or I like to think) that noone here is chuckling at senseless loss of life. Regardless, if one does not wish to die in armed conflict, not joining an active deployed military is a good place to start.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:06
|
|
|
Madkal posted:And here I was thinking the ultra right wing nationalist are having a rise in Europe and North America, with political parties openly attacking immigrants and using barely coded anti semitism while their supporters chant "Jews won't replace us" in the streets. Nice to now the rise of anti-Semitism and just around Xenophobia happening worldwide is just a right wing Jewish conspiracy. Current events suggest that Israel isn’t exactly safer for Jews than America.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:07
|
|
|
People are talking about civilian causalities as if social media’s not filled with a video a of a stripped naked young women’s dead body being paraded around. What’s the advantage of that?
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:07
|
|
|
Sri.Theo posted:People are talking about civilian causalities as if social media’s not filled with a video a of a stripped naked young women’s dead body being paraded around. What’s the advantage of that? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:11
|
|
|
It is very interesting to see the whiplash change from some of the forums going from, Ukraine should stop resisting and just take the genocidal invasion all violence is bad into, every Isrealite is a valid target and violence is just fine. The Crimean Russian colonists are the real population but the Israeli settlers are absolutely terrible. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:15
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:hey goons, regardless of where you stand we can all agree that children don't deserve to suffer because of violence. you can donate here to the Palestine Children's Relief Fund, which sends medical personnel/supplies to Palestine, builds hospitals and clinics, and also evacuates Palestinian kids to the West so they can get medical treatments not available in Gaza/the West Bank. It has a good charity rating and was endorsed by jimmy carter so the money goes where it's supposed to go. I hope we can all take a second to open our hearts and wallets to ease the suffering of innocent children. Thanks for making me aware of this charity.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:19
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:I know a lot of Zionists who sound like you - the endless sarcastic mockery of anyone who thinks mass murder is awful - and it's not less obnoxious on this flavor. I'm not quite sure I follow -- whom amongst us does not think any sort of killing of fellow human being is awful? Why does someone deserve to die simply because their grandparents abetted an apartheid government's rapacious theft of the homes of a people they regard as subhuman? Even if they themselves, for instance, were literally the people evicting families from their homes so they could move in on behalf of a psychotic far-right extremist government, were they not simply acting in their rational self-interest? Why should they deserve to die? That you continue to live in their (or their grandparents', as it were), even if it is complicity in the genocidal destruction of a people who have had a boot on their necks for generations, ought not make you a target of violence! No, the murder of anyone -- "civilian" (whatever that loaded term might mean!) or otherwise is simply and inarguably morally wrong. I'm sorry if you are trapped within an open air prison run by one of, perhaps the singular, most vile and despicable far-right government run by out-and-out genocidal lunatics who have waged a decades long campaign to eradicate you and yours from the face of the earth for the crime of having lived in a place they have decided is theirs -- but resorting to violence simply cannot be tolerated!
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 08:43 |
|
|
bad_fmr posted:It is very interesting to see the whiplash change from some of the forums going from, Ukraine should stop resisting and just take the genocidal invasion all violence is bad into, every Isrealite is a valid target and violence is just fine. The Crimean Russian colonists are the real population but the Israeli settlers are absolutely terrible.
|
|
#
?
Oct 7, 2023 19:20
|
|