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Metis of the Hallway posted:I'm also a non-book reader and I honestly think a lot of this stuff is actually very clear. The bolded in particular is pretty directly stated in the show: Lanfear is the least dangerous and most predictable of the Forsaken. She was friends with Ishamael and Lews Therin, so Ishamael thinks he understands her motivations and can work with her the most effectively out of all the Forsaken. It's a given, then, that the rest of the Forsaken are far, far worse than Lanfear and Ishamael deliberately did not awaken them yet because they would be harder to control.
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Oct 7, 2023 13:09
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El Grillo posted:Wait didn't Moiraine literally say when the Lanfear reveal happened, that she is the most dangerous and cruel of the Forsaken or something Least dangerous to Ishmael.
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Oct 7, 2023 13:12
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Oct 7, 2023 17:09
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Egwene using the collar as not a weapon makes sense to me. She had already figured out how it works so she knew it wouldn’t cause physical harm or hurt. Not to mention they said a few episodes that the thing wants to be out on a woman. It’s a ter’angeral with a specific purpose. It doesn’t need anything special to work, just hold it up to a neck. Egwene didn’t have to make contact with Renna, just get it close enough and it will spring open and do it’s thing.
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Oct 7, 2023 18:56
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Whether or not it can be like, fantasy-logic-justified is far besides the point. If it's a matter of "the collar doesn't see itself as a weapon," then I think it undermines some really good writing the show did (particularly episode 6) by making the answer to the collar and bracelet a loophole. If it's a matter of "Egwene didn't see it as a weapon," that's an absolutely wild character development that warrants more exploration on-screen than it was given and doesn't seem to line up with what happens immediately after. And in either event, I think making slavery (and like, they chose to depict enslaved black women suffering violence on-screen, lol, this is not just magic fantasy slavery) into something that can be "beaten" individualistically just kinda sucks for lots of reasons. Even looking at just how it impacts the show, it turns everything nynaeve and elayne did in the back half of the season into a dead end and waste of time from the finale's point of view and imo makes the Ryma stuff retrospectively kinda distasteful.
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Oct 7, 2023 19:27
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Valentin posted:Whether or not it can be like, fantasy-logic-justified is far besides the point. If it's a matter of "the collar doesn't see itself as a weapon," then I think it undermines some really good writing the show did (particularly episode 6) by making the answer to the collar and bracelet a loophole. If it's a matter of "Egwene didn't see it as a weapon," that's an absolutely wild character development that warrants more exploration on-screen than it was given and doesn't seem to line up with what happens immediately after. These are fair points but a modern television audience simply will not accept a heroine not saving herself. Even if that makes the writing shallower or more simplistic overall, you just aren't going to have a television show where a heroine is abused to any significant degree and then just gets saved by outside forces other than her own agency. It would make large portions of the audience stop watching the show entirely.
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Oct 7, 2023 19:34
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Valentin posted:Whether or not it can be like, fantasy-logic-justified is far besides the point. If it's a matter of "the collar doesn't see itself as a weapon," then I think it undermines some really good writing the show did (particularly episode 6) by making the answer to the collar and bracelet a loophole. If it's a matter of "Egwene didn't see it as a weapon," that's an absolutely wild character development that warrants more exploration on-screen than it was given and doesn't seem to line up with what happens immediately after. Egwene's Individualistic defeat of slavery wasn't escaping the collar. It was being ready to pay any price to not be made to kill people for her enslavers. Her escape was an effort by herself, but capitalizing on events that were not caused by her. Without the white cloaks trebuchetting the tower, she wasn't going to escape the collar. These are two separate things.
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Oct 7, 2023 19:37
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Morrow posted:Based on what he and Lanfear said in this episode, his plan was to convince Rand to turn evil by turning his friends evil first. Ishamael wants to destroy the world by helping the Dark One win and a guaranteed way to do that was to turn the Dragon to the shadow. Egwene had been captured and was ideally going to be tortured into a weapon of war, Matt was being given lots of drugs and left alone with an evil dagger, and Perrin kind of escaped before he could do more than some small mind games. Thanks, that clears up a lot.
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Oct 7, 2023 19:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:These are fair points but a modern television audience simply will not accept a heroine not saving herself. Even if that makes the writing shallower or more simplistic overall, you just aren't going to have a television show where a heroine is abused to any significant degree and then just gets saved by outside forces other than her own agency. It would make large portions of the audience stop watching the show entirely. To that point, I made the mistake of going on Reddit last night and seeing what people were saying about the finale there's a large swath of people who are so mad about it they've convinced themselves that Egwene was the one who defeated Ishamael too instead of Rand. That's like beyond media illiteracy, that's full on loving mass psychosis. Like, criticism the show all you want, but criticize it for things it actually did instead of the poo poo you imagined that it did somehow. Jesus 
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Oct 7, 2023 19:56
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nine-gear crow posted:To that point, I made the mistake of going on Reddit last night and seeing what people were saying about the finale there's a large swath of people who are so mad about it they've convinced themselves that Egwene was the one who defeated Ishamael too instead of Rand. That's like beyond media illiteracy, that's full on loving mass psychosis. Like, criticism the show all you want, but criticize it for things it actually did instead of the poo poo you imagined that it did somehow. Jesus Careful where you go. r/whitecloaks got shut down for racism and the various wheel of time subreddits have splintered, so there's r/wot, r/wotshow, r/wetlanderhumor vs r/aielhumor, etc. A great deal of the internet these days reminds me of this passage in The Magician's Nephew quote:
Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 20:12
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nine-gear crow posted:To that point, I made the mistake of going on Reddit last night and seeing what people were saying about the finale there's a large swath of people who are so mad about it they've convinced themselves that Egwene was the one who defeated Ishamael too instead of Rand. That's like beyond media illiteracy, that's full on loving mass psychosis. Like, criticism the show all you want, but criticize it for things it actually did instead of the poo poo you imagined that it did somehow. Jesus haha, they showed her making the shield! It was impressive, but she didn't stab him through the heart
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Oct 7, 2023 20:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:r/whitecloaks got shut down for racism 
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Oct 7, 2023 20:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Careful where you go. r/whitecloaks got shut down for racism and the various wheel of time subreddits have splintered, so there's r/wot, r/wotshow, r/wetlanderhumor vs r/aielhumor, etc. This was in straight up top level r/television 
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Oct 7, 2023 20:19
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If you want to be able to have conversations about the show on reddit with people who usually have object permanence you're going to have a better chance on WoTshow. It's still reddit so it's still not great, but your chances are better there.
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Oct 7, 2023 20:24
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Valentin posted:Whether or not it can be like, fantasy-logic-justified is far besides the point. If it's a matter of "the collar doesn't see itself as a weapon," then I think it undermines some really good writing the show did (particularly episode 6) by making the answer to the collar and bracelet a loophole. If it's a matter of "Egwene didn't see it as a weapon," that's an absolutely wild character development that warrants more exploration on-screen than it was given and doesn't seem to line up with what happens immediately after. Slavery as a system cannot be beaten by individual efforts, but I think individuals like Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman very much made the argument that slaves often could and did 'beat' their masters by fleeing to the North and/or Canada. The fact that every slave did not have the ability or agency to do so does not take away from the heroism and courage of those that did. Egwene was not fighting the whole Seanchan system, she was fighting against Renna, and circumstances provided her the opportunity to turn the tables on her enslaver and escape. Egwene managed to free herself, something that many slaves throughout history have done, many at great cost to themselves. And yes what happened to Ryma was distasteful, the Seanchan are the bad guys.
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Oct 7, 2023 20:26
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As a non book reader, I feel like the Forsaken's motivations isn't altogether clear. Does anyone else feel this way? As in, it seems like the show hasn't really explained what is so bad if the wheel breaks. Isn't having the same poo poo happen over and over again not good, i.e. ishamael is right? It seems like the bad people are bad because they murder people, not because of their grand scheme. I dunno, maybe I'm forgetting some stuff that happened in the first season that explained it. e:nm the person below me explained that the dark one winning would destroy everything, I guess thats bad DeadFatDuckFat fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 22:40
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sweet geek swag posted:And yes what happened to Ryma was distasteful, the Seanchan are the bad guys. I’m going to pick at one word here. The Seanchan have said that their goal is to unite the world under the banner of the light. While there might be Darkfriends in their number, we’ve seen the same be true of Aes Sedai, Whitecloaks, and even Tinkers (thinking back to S2E1’s opening and trying to remember the various people around the table). As a geopolitical entity the Seanchan do not serve the Dark One—if you’re willing to trust what they say. The Whitecloaks also claim to want to serve the light, but they have very different ideas about what that means than Egwene and Perrin do. If you’re willing to believe the various characters when they state their goals, there are a lot of people who think of themselves as good, but do monstrous things in the name of achieving their goals. But none of them are (so far as we’ve seen) the bad guy: the Dark One whose victory over the Dragon Reborn would mean an end to all creation.
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Oct 7, 2023 22:42
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:As a non book reader, I feel like the Forsaken's motivations isn't altogether clear. Does anyone else feel this way? As in, it seems like the show hasn't really explained what is so bad if the wheel breaks. Isn't having the same poo poo happen over and over again not good, i.e. ishamael is right? It seems like the bad people are bad because they murder people, not because of their grand scheme. I dunno, maybe I'm forgetting some stuff that happened in the first season that explained it. Got a darkfriend over here boys
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Oct 7, 2023 22:46
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:As a non book reader, I feel like the Forsaken's motivations isn't altogether clear. Does anyone else feel this way? As in, it seems like the show hasn't really explained what is so bad if the wheel breaks. Isn't having the same poo poo happen over and over again not good, i.e. ishamael is right? It seems like the bad people are bad because they murder people, not because of their grand scheme. I dunno, maybe I'm forgetting some stuff that happened in the first season that explained it. Also it's broken down really well in the cold open to the finale. Ishy: "Everyone suffers we should break the wheel" Lews: "Then everyone would die"
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Oct 7, 2023 23:23
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CainFortea posted:Also it's broken down really well in the cold open to the finale. Oh yeah i guess. I kinda took that to mean peoples souls would die (and not be reborn), but I suppose it means that everyone flat out dies?
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Oct 7, 2023 23:25
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:Oh yeah i guess. I kinda took that to mean peoples souls would die (and not be reborn), but I suppose it means that everyone flat out dies? Yup. Even back in S1 with Dana the Innkeeper Darkfriend explaining how being reborn sucks.
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Oct 7, 2023 23:26
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Finale definitely had its weaknesses -- I appreciated why they had to skip over the recovery of the Horn, but leaving that entirely to a throwaway line about "a woman from Cairhien" left me disappointed. I do have to point out that Lan blatantly states that there are soldiers on the cliffs and poo poo when he and Moiraine are going after the boats, so all of you wondering where the soldiers even came from should at least consider that as some attempt at justification for the awkwardness of that scene. Did it still look kinda dumb and contrived? Yes, but at least they tried to give it some kind of explanation. I agree that the Nynaeve and Elayne moment went on for too long, and cutting back to it over and over was...silly?? I feel like Nynaeve should have fallen instinctively onto her Wisdom training when she realized she was struggling to use the Source. It's such a defining aspect of her character! Why does it require some outsider to remind her of that whenever she's constantly referred to as Wisdom? She obviously has very strong feelings about her role in Two Rivers. It's come up a couple of times that she feels obligated to go back to Two Rivers and help her people because her departure has possibly left them in the hands of a sub-par drunk. So, idk, that didn't sit completely right with me I guess. It's possible her traumatic experience in the whole alternate reality thing was part of it, idk. Interesting explanations in prior posts for Ishamael's odd behavior/uncharacteristic engagement of The Heroes at the end. I can accept the reasoning that he just kinda committed suicide by not putting up much of a fight. He seemed very content at the end. I'm happy for him. See you next turn of the Wheel, Ishy! That's enough negativity, though. You know what I DID like a hell of a lot? Egwene. Egwene is an incredibly powerful person it seems, and I don't mean that strictly in the sense that she's got big Source energy. She's driven, willful, stubborn, strong, and refuses to break no matter what horror she experiences. Through all of that she maintains compassion for others which is really, really impressive. I thought her slavery arc was pretty brutal but that it was the sort of experience that, like...forged her into the person that other people believed she's always been. She turned that horror into power. To me it makes a lot of sense that she would be at her peak on top of that tower, especially when it comes to the confrontation with Renna. She endured SO MUCH, and it became her fuel. I loved, LOVED seeing her outlast Renna's death. That look on her face the whole time...man. Egwene loving rules. I was kind of cheering for the Whitecloaks until I remembered how awful they can actually be and that was a weird feeling to work through as a fan. Seeing them gently caress up the Seanchan was awesome. I liked Whitecloak Dad (sorry, forget his name) because he actually wanted to do poo poo for the people immediately harmed by the Seanchan's invasion. gently caress HIM for making cry over Hopper, though. gently caress!! Overall I thought the finale did the best that it could with the resources it was given. I super, super agree that the season -- while overall SO MUCH BETTER and SO MUCH MORE ENGAGING than season one -- really needed a couple of more episodes. I can't blame that on the showrunners since they're doing the best with what they've got, and I've really liked the results thus far, sooo...give them more episodes so things are even better. also gently caress poo poo the costumes are so loving good what the gently caress No real spoilers in this video unless you just haven't watched Season Two at all (though there is plenty of discussion about how descriptions from the book really guided the design work): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYS1P6Z74rY She'll also be doing the S3 costume design. my cat is norris fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 00:08
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my cat is norris posted:I do have to point out that Lan blatantly states that there are soldiers on the cliffs and poo poo when he and Moiraine are going after the boats, so all of you wondering where the soldiers even came from should at least consider that as some attempt at justification for the awkwardness of that scene. Did it still look kinda dumb and contrived? Yes, but at least they tried to give it some kind of explanation. yeah this has seemed like a silly thing to get mad at. it's not like the show went out of its way to make it a super realistic military engagement, but an occupying army is going to have outriders and patrols making sure people don't sneak around their flanks. a squad of 10-20 guys catching them and immediately trying to respond -- as, after all, they can't just call for help and they've found an enemy wizard and her bodyguard snuck into their territory and doing aggressive tai chi in the direction of their ships -- seems reasonable. maybe it'd be more realistic if they were cavalry or something but i'll write it off to the Seanchan having to cross an ocean eke out fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 00:54
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I literally don't care, I just like seeing Lan stab the mans
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Oct 8, 2023 00:55
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I think he's one of the best fighters on the series. It's fun to watch him. That arrow snatch ruled.
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Oct 8, 2023 02:00
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my cat is norris posted:I think he's one of the best fighters on the series. It's fun to watch him. That arrow snatch ruled. He should not have been able to do that, I'm pretty sure he canonically doesn't have levels in monk, and warders don't get arrow catch.
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Oct 8, 2023 02:19
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eke out posted:an occupying army is going to have outriders and patrols making sure people don't sneak around their flanks. Turak: I saw an omen this morning. Make sure your patrol takes extra care today, Captain. *30 minutes later, just outside the gates* Soldier: Every day we march around this dusty plain, and the worst we ever find is a caravan of those ugly humped beasts that like to spit at us. All these merchants with their fancy accents swore the oaths days ago when passing through the surrounding towns. Captain, can we instead patrol the beach? The air is cooler, and perhaps we will find a single young child to murder, as one does. Captain: Or perhaps a pretty fishwife to enslave, eh? I like your thinking. Beach it is. *30 minutes later, also just outside the gates* Guard 1: What’s with all this sudden smoke? Guard 2: I’m sure it’s nothing. The patrol on the plains would have warned us of anything dangerous headed this way. Guard 1: You’re right. Let’s just leave the gate open. its HIM fucked around with this message at 10:51 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 10:49
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Really enjoyed the season finale and the season as a whole. My hope for season 3 is that they finally do something about Loial's hair.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:57
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NinjaDebugger posted:He should not have been able to do that, I'm pretty sure he canonically doesn't have levels in monk, and warders don't get arrow catch. *frantically flipping through my 3rd Edition Wheel of Time Player's Handbook for the Warder Prestige Class* No, they do not.
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Oct 8, 2023 12:03
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Devorum posted:*frantically flipping through my 3rd Edition Wheel of Time Player's Handbook for the Warder Prestige Class* Yup, and Lan specifically is a Borderlander Armsman 10 / Warder 4 / Blademaster 2. Presumably for the show they let him respec and he splashed some monk levels for the increased AC. (FYI: the WoT RPG book is fairly valuable now -- copies tend to sell for around $100 to $200).
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Oct 8, 2023 17:56
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I binged all the episodes and I can't really remember much of them except that the sound effects for the Seanchan fingernails were pitch perfect dumb. Looking forward to season 3. Edit: someone please make a supercut of all the nail action
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Oct 8, 2023 17:56
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It's like how in every movie where people point guns at each other, every one-handed movement of the gun makes a "racking" sound
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Oct 8, 2023 18:03
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I love me a good Indiana Jones reference. Gonna be a long wait for season 3.
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Oct 8, 2023 22:22
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Bongo Bill posted:I love me a good Indiana Jones reference. Yeah the strikes are going to make the wait extra long. Trying to keep people hooked if there’s over two years between seasons is rough.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:04
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yup, and Lan specifically is a Borderlander Armsman 10 / Warder 4 / Blademaster 2. I got a copy signed by Jordan when it first came out. So many cool illustrations in that thing. I really regret losing it.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:09
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Liked Moghedien. Great casting. We thought the flaming dragon thingy was goofy but eh it gets the job done. I don't mind watching more actually, it's less of an effort than rereading the books lol. Lanfear is our favorite character still, just an agent of chaos. Moiraine being able to attack the ship with people in it was probably just her justifying it as "what if we make a sick flame torpedo and point it at something" Meanwhile my friend who read all the books is malding at every turn and I hope he keeps hate-watching the show. Lily Catts fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 03:54
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Lily Catts posted:
I legitimately feel bad for people like this that they can't just enjoy good things on their own lol. I've probably reread the series at least 6? times and getting to see another new take on it is incredibly exciting. Plus getting a performance like we've seen for Lanfear just cements that character even better in my head.
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Oct 9, 2023 04:02
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Gwaihir posted:I legitimately feel bad for people like this that they can't just enjoy good things on their own lol. Plus, like . .. . the books are still there. Nothing on the screen changes them in any way. The absolute worst case here is that Amazon spends a bajillion dollars advertising the books.
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Oct 9, 2023 04:06
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Yeah, fidelity criticism sucks. It's all just adaptation anyway, the TV show, each version in each reader's head... even the original text is just an adaptation of what the author was thinking about, it's not a 1:1 translation. It's all adaptation.
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Oct 9, 2023 04:21
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Of all the series to get pissy about canon, the wheel of time might be the funniest. It's literally named after the... theology? that everything keeps happening in cycles but different
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Oct 9, 2023 04:28
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