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BWV posted:I am talking through this with a few friends and they are having trouble getting their head around how this is strategically beneficial for Palestinians but am I wrong to suggest it is more about Hamas further cementing their own leadership and demonstrating to their "constituents" that they are able to execute reprisals?. To me this will only embolden more violent and explicit retaliation and I don't see the US or other allies even scolding Israel for it. In the last "counter" attack against Gaza they blew up an apartment building and people could hardly be mad for more than a week. Now with the bodies in the streets I feel like it'll lead to even more wanton destruction. This is basically a substantial driver of Hamas' choices to engage in violence, yes - as long as less-violent solutions don't seem to actually be solutions and Israel keeps pummeling Palestine, Hamas needs to show a willingness to resist or they'll get undercut by even bigger assholes, same way they themselves undercut the PA. It's a loving disastrous mess of incentives that can't realistically be resolved by Palestinian action as long as Israel, the side with much more agency and military power, keeps being horrible. Josef bugman posted:Do you need to serve in the armed forces of a nation to have an opinion about ones fellow country folk? I think you may have misread. Ultra-orthodox Israelis are perfectly fine with other Israelis being conscripted, and aren't exactly forward-thinkers regarding Palestine. This isn't a "service guarantees citizenship" thing, it's a "their opposition to their own conscription is absolutely not grounded in positive moral thinking" thing.
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Oct 7, 2023 22:11
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I think you may have misread. Ultra-orthodox Israelis are perfectly fine with other Israelis being conscripted, and aren't exactly forward-thinkers regarding Palestine. This isn't a "service guarantees citizenship" thing, it's a "their opposition to their own conscription is absolutely not grounded in positive moral thinking" thing. Got it. Thank you.
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Oct 7, 2023 22:15
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Google Jeb Bush posted:This is basically a substantial driver of Hamas' choices to engage in violence, yes - as long as less-violent solutions don't seem to actually be solutions and Israel keeps pummeling Palestine, Hamas needs to show a willingness to resist or they'll get undercut by even bigger assholes, same way they themselves undercut the PA. It's a loving disastrous mess of incentives that can't realistically be resolved by Palestinian action as long as Israel, the side with much more agency and military power, keeps being horrible. Yeah I didn't mean to imply that Haredim are enlightened pacifists, just that they happen to be doing the moral thing by choosing strict religious observance over contribution to the colony.
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Oct 7, 2023 22:15
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Iamgoofball posted:get better material imho, low effort LARPing as the world's dumbest centrist stopped being funny after the first post, this is not your best shitposting work and just comes off as getting cheap laughs in at the horrifying genocide of the Palestinian people at the hands of a fascist ethnostate I'm sorry, but I simply cannot condone the indiscriminate Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians, many of whom have done nothing wrong (and it would still be wrong to harm them if they did anything, as they are civilians!). I'll have you know that there are goons posting in this very thread that are under direct threat from Hamas-led violence and to condone that violence in any way is to wish harm upon our fellow goons and is completely against the rules in D&D and Something Awful in general. If your stance is that Palestinian violence against the Israelis that have brutally oppressed, tortured, maimed, murdered, raped, stolen from, debased, shamed, humiliated, mocked, and otherwise devastated them for generations is in any way inevitable, understandable, or -- heaven forfend -- justified I must disagree in the strongest possible terms
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Oct 7, 2023 22:33
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I'm sorry, but I simply cannot condone the indiscriminate Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians, many of whom have done nothing wrong (and it would still be wrong to harm them if they did anything, as they are civilians!). I'll have you know that there are goons posting in this very thread that are under direct threat from Hamas-led violence and to condone that violence in any way is to wish harm upon our fellow goons and is completely against the rules in D&D and Something Awful in general. If your stance is that Palestinian violence against the Israelis that have brutally oppressed, tortured, maimed, murdered, raped, stolen from, debased, shamed, humiliated, mocked, and otherwise devastated them for generations is in any way inevitable, understandable, or -- heaven forfend -- justified I must disagree in the strongest possible terms post  twice if there's an IDF soldier holding you at gunpoint OP(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 7, 2023 22:40
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Reputable reports going around now that the total death toll on the Israeli side is in the 250-300 range. That's like 10x what Israel would have ever thought possible in an attack like this. Not sure how many of the dead are soldiers and how many were civilians, but based on video, it would seem there are large numbers of both. Totally unprecedented.
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Oct 7, 2023 22:40
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I loving love the video of the guys scrambling all over the tank at the border. Normal people asserting power over a mobile oppression fortress
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Oct 7, 2023 22:41
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Yeah I didn't mean to imply that Haredim are enlightened pacifists, just that they happen to be doing the moral thing by choosing strict religious observance over contribution to the colony. I'm guessing they still pull the lever for the political parties that decide to use the military against the Palestinian population, so I'm not sure they deserve credit for merely being unwilling to fire the guns personally.
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Oct 7, 2023 22:41
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:This makes much more sense over the normalization of Israeli-Saudi relations. The situation on the ground changed and that really got people upset opposed to governments doing diplomacy. Is anyone able to tell me what a occupation would look like and why those didn't work out in the past? There won't be an occupation. It'll probably just be collective punishment: the IDF will roll in, start blowing up civilian infrastructure until it seems like angry voters' bloodlust has been somewhat sated, and then pull out and announce that Gazans need to overthrow Hamas if they want any kind of relief supplies to be allowed through the border crossings anytime soon. That's how these always go. Israel used to have a full-on occupation of the Gaza Strip, complete with settlers moving in, same as the West Bank. But as the peace process ground to a halt and deals like the Oslo Accords amounted to nothing, a major insurgency developed, with soldiers and settlers being subject to constant attacks. The IDF proved incapable of stopping the insurgency. The insurgency was especially bad in Gaza, and Israeli religious-nationalists didn't want Gaza as badly as they wanted the West Bank, so in 2005, Israel just pulled out of Gaza altogether. They evacuated all the settlers, demolished all the military infrastructure, and pulled out of Gaza entirely. Hamas, which played a large role in building that insurgency, was able to take credit for driving Israel out of Gaza (a much larger concession than anything Fatah had managed), and rode that to victory in elections. In retaliation, a pissed-off Israel sealed off Gaza's border entirely (with help from Egypt). Since then, Israel's main interactions with Gaza have been using their control of the border crossings for carrot-and-stick negotiating tactics, limiting the flow of supplies and commerce across the border based on their current mood toward Gaza. If Israel gets mad enough at Gaza, they go in and blow a bunch of poo poo up, then pull out and refuse to allow humanitarian aid through the border crossings until Hamas makes some kind of concession. This is just going to be a particularly brutal round of that same old routine (it happens every 2-3 years).
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Oct 7, 2023 22:47
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Should we be worried about Israel potentially using nuclear weapons in response to Hamas, or will they stick to conventional weapons?
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Oct 7, 2023 22:49
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 22:50
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Willo567 posted:Should we be worried about Israel potentially using nuclear weapons in response to Hamas, or will they stick to conventional weapons? No. The non nuclear weapons they have are just as devastating without drawbacks. This won't be much better for the victims though.
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Oct 7, 2023 22:54
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Willo567 posted:Should we be worried about Israel potentially using nuclear weapons in response to Hamas, or will they stick to conventional weapons? Not at all
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Oct 7, 2023 22:54
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Willo567 posted:Should we be worried about Israel potentially using nuclear weapons in response to Hamas, or will they stick to conventional weapons? Your balls are safe.
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Oct 7, 2023 22:55
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I'm no expert but I think (and will not check) that Gaza is small enough that any nukes used on it will gently caress up parts of Israel as well.
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Oct 7, 2023 22:56
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Miftan posted:I'm no expert but I think (and will not check) that Gaza is small enough that any nukes used on it will gently caress up parts of Israel as well.
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Oct 7, 2023 22:57
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Turns out that there was an all night rave or party near the border that was one of the first hit by the militants. The video of people running across an open field is from that rave. The dead woman being paraded around in the pickup has been linked to an Instagram account of someone at that rave with matching tattoos and dreadlock or braided hair. Another viral video of a woman being taken by motorcycle away from her boyfriend who is being held away by militants is also from that rave. This is just loving awful all around. I can't even imagine the psychological whiplash of going from a dance party to a warzone in a matter of a couple of hours, and then getting kidnapped and worse.
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Oct 7, 2023 23:06
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Lol there’s something about the Israel-Palestine conflict flaring up that activates some deep lizard part of non-politically aware people’s brains. I’ve seen way more harebrained questions today about whether this is going to be the start of a new world war than I did the day Russia invaded Ukraine.
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Oct 7, 2023 23:07
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FlamingLiberal posted:Correct. Gaza is very small. Israel as a whole is pretty small too. prevailing wind patterns also mean nuking gaza means fallout all over israel. they arent going to nuke gaza lol. although im sure there are some who want to!
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Oct 7, 2023 23:09
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ummel posted:Turns out that there was an all night rave or party near the border that was one of the first hit by the militants. The video of people running across an open field is from that rave. The dead woman being paraded around in the pickup has been linked to an Instagram account of someone at that rave with matching tattoos and dreadlock or braided hair. Another viral video of a woman being taken by motorcycle away from her boyfriend who is being held away by militants is also from that rave. This is just loving awful all around. I can't even imagine the psychological whiplash of going from a dance party to a warzone in a matter of a couple of hours, and then getting kidnapped and worse. Imagine holding a loving rave directly next to an open air prison
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Oct 7, 2023 23:10
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ContinuityNewTimes posted:Imagine holding a loving rave directly next to an open air prison Yeah imagine being Palestinian and hearing that bleeding through the wall.
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Oct 7, 2023 23:11
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ContinuityNewTimes posted:Imagine holding a loving rave directly next to an open air prison Does the border wall help with the acoustics?
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Oct 7, 2023 23:14
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Israel/Palestine: Arab Fall
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Oct 7, 2023 23:16
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I see headlines suggesting that Netanyahu might not survive this and I just can't buy that. Every time he's been in trouble, he's organized a campaign to distract, and now he's had one served up to him. Like Bush with 9/11, I feel like he couldn't ask for a better crisis
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Oct 7, 2023 23:18
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ContinuityNewTimes posted:Imagine holding a loving rave directly next to an open air prison Yeah that's hosed too. Not sure how "close" it was, as it sounded like the type of pop up party to happen in the middle of no where. Like a bush doof in Australia.
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Oct 7, 2023 23:22
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 23:24
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Willo567 posted:Should we be worried about Israel potentially using nuclear weapons in response to Hamas, or will they stick to conventional weapons? Suggest you dig out a map friend. If London wants to get rid of Orpington it's not going to nuke it. For reference: Sderot is something like eight miles from Gaza City (also because it would be nuking an occupied population and probably the single biggest war crime/crime against humanity committed in the last few decades)
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Oct 7, 2023 23:29
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ummel posted:Yeah that's hosed too. Not sure how "close" it was, as it sounded like the type of pop up party to happen in the middle of no where. Like a bush doof in Australia. Apparently it was near the Reim Kibbutz, about 5 miles from the fence.
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Oct 7, 2023 23:29
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So far it seems even right wingers are astounded from the magnitude of the failure on Netanyahu's part, some of his more loyal lickspittles have been trying to do hasbara all day but given that this idiot has been in charge for the last decade it's going to be a hard spin to sell. though of course, he has a large cult of personality and you can't know how this thing will play out, on social media many notable Bibi loyalists are already 'just asking questions' about the possibility of treason. but still, right wingers who are not members of the Bibi cult are calling for his resignation quite vocally. Like, the degree of chaos and disorganisation is truly breathtaking, Israelis were watching scenes from a warzone starting from 6:30 am while the government remained silent for four more hours, there are people who know their family members have been taken to Gaza who still weren't contacted by officials, it's a major failure of Israel as a -state-, citizens are completely shocked, it seems like many illusions were dispelled today.
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Oct 7, 2023 23:31
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emanresu tnuocca posted:So far it seems even right wingers are astounded from the magnitude of the failure on Netanyahu's part, some of his more loyal lickspittles have been trying to do hasbara all day but given that this idiot has been in charge for the last decade it's going to be a hard spin to sell. though of course, he has a large cult of personality and you can't know how this thing will play out, on social media many notable Bibi loyalists are already 'just asking questions' about the possibility of treason. but still, right wingers who are not members of the Bibi cult are calling for his resignation quite vocally. Yeah I'm sure he's going to try and spin it with all his might, but the illusion of peace has been shattered. Going to be a lot harder to reassure settlers that they are safe after this.
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Oct 7, 2023 23:32
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I see headlines suggesting that Netanyahu might not survive this and I just can't buy that. Every time he's been in trouble, he's organized a campaign to distract, and now he's had one served up to him. Like Bush with 9/11, I feel like he couldn't ask for a better crisis Maybe but it sounds like he underestimated poo poo bad and called the idf and various ic type’s coming to him “leftists” and then ignored it. If he fucks up the ground retribution murder force. Then he might be hosed. I believe yom kippur war got pushed out.
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Oct 7, 2023 23:32
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 23:37
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On the Palestinian side of things, regardless of Israel's response, this is an incredible breakthrough; the image Israel has curated for itself has been that of a hypercompetent security ethnostate, an inevitability for Palestine that cannot be defeated, let alone rolled back. No matter what happens, a single night from an underequipped army has demonstrated just how vulnerable Israel really is. It can't be overstated just how much of a morale boost I've seen amongst my Palestinian friends. It's been impossible to wade into 'normie' I/P discussions without at least one derail about how badass the IDF are, their stupid hollywood martial arts, how they took on a gorillion Arab armies and won singlehandedly. That alleged super-army was surprised and sent retreating by guys with fans strapped to their backs.
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Oct 8, 2023 00:10
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MeinPanzer posted:Lol there’s something about the Israel-Palestine conflict flaring up that activates some deep lizard part of non-politically aware people’s brains.
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Oct 8, 2023 00:17
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Al-Saqr posted:Hopefully its true and palestinians win the day lmao that supporting a colonized people living in an apartheid state who have the temerity to resist their active genocide can earn you a probation in D&D. great ideological consistency. death to israel. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 00:19
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Mr SuperAwesome posted:lmao that supporting a colonized people living in an apartheid state who have the temerity to resist their active genocide can earn you a probation in D&D. great ideological consistency. death to israel. A rare bad shoot for SA moderation
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Oct 8, 2023 00:22
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Do you think the met will give me a serious hearing if I complain that people flying the Israeli flag in London are committing a hate crime after 300 Gazans killed in aerial bombings? https://x.com/RachelRileyRR/status/1710730697797734429?s=20
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Oct 8, 2023 00:26
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ContinuityNewTimes posted:A rare bad shoot for SA moderation lmao
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Oct 8, 2023 00:29
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Mr SuperAwesome posted:lmao that supporting a colonized people living in an apartheid state who have the temerity to resist their active genocide can earn you a probation in D&D. great ideological consistency. death to israel. there is a difference between expressing general support for the palestinian cause, and doing so in direct response and with apparent specificity to a goon saying "my home is locked down and i am worried for my personal safety" Do not lust for goon death. If he'd just left the quote out it would have been fine as written, because it changes the context. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 00:33
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Google Jeb Bush posted:there is a difference between expressing general support for the palestinian cause, and doing so in direct response and with apparent specificity to a goon saying "my home is locked down and i am worried for my personal safety" he obviously isn't lusting for goon death lmao, this is a huge and outrageous reach. the poster is from the ME, why are you implying that support for the poster's brethren who are being actively genocided by an apartheid state is somehow bad? analogies to other historical "just struggles" are stupid because this is probably the clearest example of a just struggle from a people fighting for self-determination against genocide, but if you criticized posters for saying "i hope the black south africans win the day" "i hope the Zimbabweans win the day" (etc, references to other struggles of liberation are left as an exercise to the reader) you would be rightly criticized as a fascist lunatic. but if the palestinians have the temerity to fight back, its Bad. e: https://twitter.com/hasanthehun/status/1710726262535389263
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Oct 8, 2023 00:42
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