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ContinuityNewTimes posted:Imagine holding a loving rave directly next to an open air prison
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Oct 8, 2023 00:43
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Google Jeb Bush posted:This is basically a substantial driver of Hamas' choices to engage in violence, yes - as long as less-violent solutions don't seem to actually be solutions and Israel keeps pummeling Palestine, Hamas needs to show a willingness to resist or they'll get undercut by even bigger assholes, same way they themselves undercut the PA. It's a loving disastrous mess of incentives that can't realistically be resolved by Palestinian action as long as Israel, the side with much more agency and military power, keeps being horrible. I tend to stay out of I/P discussions so forgiveness going forward. Seemingly, all the news foreign policy wise coming from SA, Israel, and The United States was that they were getting close to some sort of agreement to move a peace process forward and I, maybe naively, assumed that the Palestinian's were communicating to someone in these talks. An action like this basically sets back any peace agreement for years? decades? I just don't understand the play here. I am not a big fan of Netanyahu's, don't get me wrong, and I think the US has been footing a lot of ill will because of their actions and there had been some progress within the Democratic party to at least have the conversation about our relationship with a more oppressive and aggressive Israel but someone had to know that this would unite a lot of western powers back to Israel? Biden and Iran had been softening relations too and who knows how that plays out.
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Oct 8, 2023 00:46
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 00:47
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Mr SuperAwesome posted:he obviously isn't lusting for goon death lmao, this is a huge and outrageous reach. the poster is from the ME, why are you implying that support for the poster's brethren who are being actively genocided by an apartheid state is somehow bad? analogies to other historical "just struggles" are stupid because this is probably the clearest example of a just struggle from a people fighting for self-determination against genocide, but if you criticized posters for saying "i hope the black south africans win the day" "i hope the Zimbabweans win the day" (etc, references to other struggles of liberation are left as an exercise to the reader) you would be rightly criticized as a fascist lunatic. but if the palestinians have the temerity to fight back, its Bad. I don't think it's a reach at all, probably shouldn't say that to a goon worried about their safety.
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Oct 8, 2023 00:48
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sdasdas posted:I don't think it's a reach at all, probably shouldn't say that to a goon worried about their safety. It's a huge reach and a stupid probation
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Oct 8, 2023 00:51
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sdasdas posted:I don't think it's a reach at all, probably shouldn't say that to a goon worried about their safety. Context matters. What is this goon doing in Bethlehem exactly? If he's a tourist or palestinian, hopefully he can hunker down until things calm down. If he's a settler, the best outcome is that he is removed with a minimum of violence. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 00:52
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Israel’s daily brutality and apartheid was supposed to stop this from happening. Now that this has been proven not to work things need to change. Unfortunately Israel will probably think more violence is the answer, and its backers in the west will happily oblige and encourage it.
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Oct 8, 2023 00:52
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There really is not much more to say really. You cant make trap people in a intolerable oppression without never ending violence, you just can`t. And every security measure will eventually be overcome as Hamas so masterfully did this time. We`ll be having this exact conservation again before 2033.
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Oct 8, 2023 00:57
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ContinuityNewTimes posted:Imagine holding a loving rave directly next to an open air prison
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Oct 8, 2023 00:58
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oh no, the people that we have genocided, brutally murdered when they try to protest our apartheid and genocide, the civilians that we have brutally murdered repeatedly in their homes for no reason, now have the temerity to fight back against our crimes against humanity, its terrorism and Bad and a crime against the Rules Based International Order. The state of Israel has no right to exist, it's a genocidal imperialist colonialist project (and has been since its inception in the 19th century) and I hope it is destroyed. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 01:01
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I dont think saqr wanted the goon to die but I feel like some care should be given with regards to "a goon might end up in the middle of a warzone"
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Oct 8, 2023 01:05
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mannerup posted:murdering and taking ravers hostage seems like a slight overreaction for a noise complaint I'll admit the conflict takes a very odd tone under the lens of NIMBYism.
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Oct 8, 2023 01:05
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Mooseontheloose posted:I tend to stay out of I/P discussions so forgiveness going forward. Seemingly, all the news foreign policy wise coming from SA, Israel, and The United States was that they were getting close to some sort of agreement to move a peace process forward and I, maybe naively, assumed that the Palestinian's were communicating to someone in these talks. An action like this basically sets back any peace agreement for years? decades? I just don't understand the play here. no, progress wrt actually resolving that status of palestinians has been completely dead in the water. one state solution is never happening in a way that includes palestinians and the likelihood of a two state solution is pretty much zero, and that's being generous to the chances. the ksa-israel rapprochement was totally removed from anything to do with palestinians.
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Oct 8, 2023 01:06
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gonna gift some forum accounts to Gazans so they’ll get more support on the forums
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Oct 8, 2023 01:11
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Mooseontheloose posted:I tend to stay out of I/P discussions so forgiveness going forward. Seemingly, all the news foreign policy wise coming from SA, Israel, and The United States was that they were getting close to some sort of agreement to move a peace process forward and I, maybe naively, assumed that the Palestinian's were communicating to someone in these talks. An action like this basically sets back any peace agreement for years? decades? I just don't understand the play here. Hear, hear! I cannot understand why the Palestinians would so grievously sabotage the road to peace. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Palestinians, perhaps all of them, would be excited to flourish under an Israeli government that recognized their hardships. Now they've gone and not just upset the process, but soured international relations against them and driven the US even further into bonhomie with the right-wing Netanyahu government. For a people that claim to want peace, this plan of action is just mind-boggling! My only thought is that the craven terrorists of Hamas are so desperate for power (against the wishes of the majority of Palestinians, no doubt) that they have struck at this moment to intentionally derail talks with Israel and the United States of America. I just hope that the Israeli government, conservative as they are, can still overlook this admittedly major setback and resume peace talks post haste. They've already established safe zones for law-abiding Palestinians as they begin their retaliatory strikes against Hamas-infested civilian infrastructure, so I don't believe my hope is too farfetched. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 01:13
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Maybe it's because I have family and friends who live in Israel. Maybe it's because my neighbours have been trying to reach out to their relatives to make sure they are okay. Maybe it's because the very thin veneer of goons here hoping for death on Israelis (sorry I mean the removal of Israelis with minimum amount of violence) but this thread has just become a cesspit where goons are enacting their ultimate revenge fantasies against a whole swarth of people because gosh darn it they are all evil settlers worthy of being raped and killed. Mods please probe me six hours. Hopefully that will get from doom reading this thread and actually talk to some real life people who don't reveal in their bloodlust so openly.
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Oct 8, 2023 01:14
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I see headlines suggesting that Netanyahu might not survive this and I just can't buy that. Every time he's been in trouble, he's organized a campaign to distract, and now he's had one served up to him. Like Bush with 9/11, I feel like he couldn't ask for a better crisis The thing is that Netanyahu has spent more than a decade making "I will protect you from the scary Arabs" a major cornerstone of his campaigns, and he's been prime minister for 13 out of the last 15 years so he can't escape some level of blame for this. It's not clear to me who'd actually be in any position to attack him over this, but I don't know if the Bush-style rally-around-the-flag effect is going to work for him personally. He's slippery as hell, though, so it's hard to see anyone nailing him down on anything. Mr SuperAwesome posted:lmao that supporting a colonized people living in an apartheid state who have the temerity to resist their active genocide can earn you a probation in D&D. great ideological consistency. death to israel. Look at what the post is in response to. If a goon posts that they just got an alert about armed gunmen being in their building, maybe that's not something you should say "hope it's true" to. Frankly, I'm shocked it's only twelve hours.
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Oct 8, 2023 01:18
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Madkal posted:Maybe it's because I have family and friends who live in Rhodesia. Maybe it's because my neighbours have been trying to reach out to their relatives to make sure they are okay. Maybe it's because the very thin veneer of goons here hoping for death on Rhodesia (sorry I mean the removal of white settelers with minimum amount of violence) but this thread has just become a cesspit where goons are enacting their ultimate revenge fantasies against a whole swarth of people because gosh darn it they are all evil settlers worthy of being raped and killed. Agreed, Glory to the Apartheid State of Rhodesia! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 01:19
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Madkal posted:Maybe it's because I have family and friends who live in Israel. Maybe it's because my neighbours have been trying to reach out to their relatives to make sure they are okay. Maybe it's because the very thin veneer of goons here hoping for death on Israelis (sorry I mean the removal of Israelis with minimum amount of violence) but this thread has just become a cesspit where goons are enacting their ultimate revenge fantasies against a whole swarth of people because gosh darn it they are all evil settlers worthy of being raped and killed. I'm so sorry, this must all be very hard for you. I just want to see a situation where 97% of the water in Gaza isn't unpotable or children aren't killed on their roofs trying to find a cat. When you chat to your IRL friends and family in Israel or in settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, would you mind asking them to write to their MKs? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 01:23
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 01:23
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Mooseontheloose posted:I tend to stay out of I/P discussions so forgiveness going forward. Seemingly, all the news foreign policy wise coming from SA, Israel, and The United States was that they were getting close to some sort of agreement to move a peace process forward and I, maybe naively, assumed that the Palestinian's were communicating to someone in these talks. An action like this basically sets back any peace agreement for years? decades? I just don't understand the play here. As far as I've been able to tell, the Palestinians have not had a seat at that negotiating table. The Saudis have been negotiating with Israel and the US, but Palestinian representatives have not been directly involved. Besides, neither the US nor Israel recognize Hamas; for the most part, they deal only with Fatah, who have essentially zero authority in Gaza. Anyhow, there's a very important factor to consider in any talk of peace negotiations involving Palestine: significant chunks of the Palestinian political establishment don't trust Israel to make actual meaningful concessions, no matter what they might say at the negotiating table. The Oslo Accords are a joke by now, and Netanyahu has publicly talked about how he worked to kneecap and neuter the Accords back in the day. The core of Hamas' power, the factor that brought them majorities in the Palestinian government in the first place, was that they were able to successfully demonstrate that violence was more effective at gaining real Israeli concessions than any amount of nonviolent negotiation was. And then the US and Israel sponsored a bloody coup by Fatah (the "nonviolent negotiation" faction), which drove Hamas out of the government in the West Bank but was repelled in Gaza via even more violence.
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Oct 8, 2023 01:33
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Has anyone found a good summary of the timeline/broad shape of events thus far? All i'm seeing on major news outlets is vague photo-essays E: i mean specific to last night and today, not like the entire history of palestine
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Oct 8, 2023 01:48
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Fuligin posted:Has anyone found a good summary of the timeline/broad shape of events thus far? All i'm seeing on major news outlets is vague photo-essays https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict_in_2023?wprov=sfti1 You can scroll down to the latest stuff, but this article is a good outline of what has been happening this year, day by day
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Oct 8, 2023 02:09
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Yeah I didn't mean to imply that Haredim are enlightened pacifists, just that they happen to be doing the moral thing by choosing strict religious observance over contribution to the colony. Hi I'm of the tribe and have family is Israel. Ultra orthodox are the biggest bunch of entitled arrogant hateful dickheads to ever grace Israel. They believe absolutely everyone and everything should bend to their insanely restrictive and regressive idealogies. They are only continuing their religious festivities in the face of the emergency because they are religious zealots and not because they don't want to partake in the massacre. They are also probably the single most hateful and anti-palestinian group in Israel (save for one odd pacifist faction that gets a lot of coverage but is a tiny minority). They are more than happy to celebrate every single palestinian death and they really view all of palestinians as subhuman. They would absolutely love to kill Palestinians. They simply don't want to be told what to do in any fashion. So from the bottom of my heart, gently caress these guys.
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Oct 8, 2023 02:26
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Kwolok posted:Hi I'm of the tribe and have family is Israel. Yeah I meant it as a "stopped clock is right twice a day" coincidence, I probably shouldn't've said anything about it. How's your family/what are you hearing?
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Oct 8, 2023 02:31
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Yeah I meant it as a "stopped clock is right twice a day" coincidence, I probably shouldn't've said anything about it. Afaik they are all safe and sound but they are staunch zionists so I don't really have a good relationship with them nor do I want to, they're kinda all poo poo heads, but my big family group text is basically indicating that everyone is fine just shaken. And of course they are using this as an excuse for why they need to "bear down on the *slurs* even more". The cycle of violence will only continue. They are so brainwashed and stupid is very frustrating. This is exactly what the current Israeli government wants. Everyone keeps saying "How could they have let this happen, this is such a monumental failure of intelligence." I don't buy that, Mossad is loving crazy good, they knew, they wanted this to happen to give them an excuse, and political leverage.
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Oct 8, 2023 02:36
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I wonder if the Israeli government is going to use this to change the idea from soldiers need to be protected at all costs to soldiers are expendable, and the ramifications that may have.
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Oct 8, 2023 03:03
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 03:08
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hadji murad posted:I wonder if the Israeli government is going to use this to change the idea from soldiers need to be protected at all costs to soldiers are expendable, and the ramifications that may have. You don't have to wonder, that was part of the PM address earlier: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-netanyahu-vows-mighty-vengeance-against-hamas-2023-10-07/ quote:"Israel will settle the score with anyone who harms them," he adds. They do have a track record of agreeing to lopsided trades in exchange for both POWs and even the corpses of KIA POWs, so I believe them that they will go after every hostage possible and it's not bluster There's a 0 chance they don't run a ground invasion in gaza on sunday, so all you bloodlust weirdoes, this is what this repeating cycle begets  I'm still in awe of all the people saying hamas committing war crimes is needed to be seen as a serious candidate in two-state negotiations. they famously won't negotiate that avenue because they don't recognize israel at all, you might be thinking of the PA who at least does
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Oct 8, 2023 03:22
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zer0spunk posted:
I don't think anyone cheering this think Hamas is interested in a two state solution. A one state solution seems to be the goal (but without any of the Jewish Israelis)
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Oct 8, 2023 03:31
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zer0spunk posted:I'm still in awe of all the people saying hamas committing war crimes is needed to be seen as a serious candidate in two-state negotiations.
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Oct 8, 2023 03:41
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Cugel the Clever posted:Pretty sure most people rightly think the "two-state solution" has been for the last two decades nothing more than a thinly-veiled plot to retain international standing while tightening the noose. The ship sailed and the only option is a multiethnic democracy where all are equal under the law, but the Israeli right are gung-ho on their ethnosupremacist apartheid state. Palestinians aren't particularly amenable either, but what do you expect after the boot grinding into their necks for decades. That is how I feel as well. Ideally the region would be governed by a democracy with one person one vote and constitutional protections to protect minority rights.
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Oct 8, 2023 03:54
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zer0spunk posted:There's a 0 chance they don't run a ground invasion in gaza on sunday, so all you bloodlust weirdoes, this is what this repeating cycle begets Absolutely agreed, Hamas fully understood that the globally-recognized, (unfortunately, perhaps!) legitimate Israeli government would retaliate with more and greater violence, and still committed those acts of terror. They are fully responsible for instigating yet another cycle of hideous violence, and frankly the responsibility for any Palestinian death that occurs in the hours, days, weeks, months, and years to come as a response towards to what happened today rests squarely on their (and other violent Palestinian groups') shoulders. e: Exactly. They understood what would happen yet saw fit to begin anew the cycle of violence. Absolutely shameful. VVVV Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 04:04
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 04:08
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Yeah, a real two-state solution would require a degree of land swaps that would make the Gaza settler evacuation backlash look like a quaint gripe, it's not not a possibility unless Palestine were to force the issue. A one-state solution is also incredibly tricky (mainly in preventing either group from overpowering the other before they can integrate), but it's also feasible without evicting large swathes of people. My pie-in-the-sky, never going to happen idea would be a four or five state nation; Judea[Southern Israel]/Samaria[Northern Israel]/West Bank/Gaza, with equal representation in a congressional system, autonomous local governments for each, the abolishment of racially targeted policies, and freedom of movement. I say "four or five" because giving any of the four Jerusalem would cause an incredible amount of trouble, but at the same time if it were a fifth state that would provide an avenue for Palestinians or Israelis to seize control. Reparations and right of return would also be important; uninhibited immigration for Palestinians would join the existent immigration policies for Jews.
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Oct 8, 2023 04:10
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The depressing thing was after the last round of this in 2021, that and mounting pressure from allies like the US, meant they started issuing work permits to gazans..the saudi deal was also putting pressure on them to concede more this though, now gives them an excuse to invade with prejudice, and have the backing of the country, at a time when government support is at its most decisive very predictable, civilians pay the worst price yet again..i also don't see the PA rising up to join this in the west bank
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Oct 8, 2023 04:10
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edit - wrong thread
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Oct 8, 2023 04:15
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 04:25
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zer0spunk posted:I'm still in awe of all the people saying hamas committing war crimes is needed to be seen as a serious candidate in two-state negotiations. they famously won't negotiate that avenue because they don't recognize israel at all, you might be thinking of the PA who at least does Hamas is the party that won the most votes and the most seats in the last Palestinian legislative elections, and is the current ruling power in the Gaza Strip. Carrying out any kind of negotiations on the future of Palestine without them is utterly impossible, no matter what you think of their official political rhetoric. Neurolimal posted:Yeah, a real two-state solution would require a degree of land swaps that would make the Gaza settler evacuation backlash look like a quaint gripe, it's not not a possibility unless Palestine were to force the issue. It's not a possibility because Israel won't accept it. But as long as Israel is adamant about demanding that Palestinians make massive concessions in return for minimal concessions from Israel, the "peace process" is nothing more than a farce. Which is fine with Israel, since all it really wants is to go through the motions to keep the international community off their back while they transfer their own population into as much of the West Bank as possible.
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Oct 8, 2023 04:26
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Maybe but it sounds like he underestimated poo poo bad and called the idf and various ic type’s coming to him “leftists” and then ignored it. If he fucks up the ground retribution murder force. Then he might be hosed. I believe yom kippur war got pushed out. More than that, he has been actively involved in reducing the amount of troops near Gaza to provide more security for settlers in the West Bank. The reason the border guards were weak enough to be taken out was that he personally made decisions that made them that weak, against the public advice and complaints of people serving under him.
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Oct 8, 2023 04:31
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