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evilmiera posted:What precisely would make that happen? This has been going on for decades and Israel as a state hasn't exactly moved towards anything better in that time. Well if sanity prevailed, this attack would be a pretty big catalyst for reevaluating the Israeli strategy. They've spent the last 20 years trying to "take the gloves off" and the end result is that Israel is facing its biggest insurgent challenges yet. So obviously it's not working. But I think there is going to be a lot of bloodlust and a lot more pointless death moving forward. I don't really see a way out anytime soon, though Israel will never "win" without having that reckoning.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:56
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Senjuro posted:I said rationalization, as in the logic of everyone in Israel is a settler and therefore a valid target. For celebration I'd have to venture to C-SPAM and I've already had my fill of it for now. Well I am not 100% sure how it works but CSPAM appears to be some kind of poo poo posting forum and people are venting. I admit I have done some of that myself. I was angry too. I was trying to get a rise. I was acting out of spite and envy. You're right though. I am wrong and for that I am sorry. I shouldn't relish people dying regardless of how I feel about the cause.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:57
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Zoeb posted:I don't see people doing that ITT. People are certainly doing that elsewhere, relishing dead Israelis, and it is not good. At the same time, I don't think it is fair to hold Palestinians or their supporters to a standard of being perfect victims. Collateral damage happens in every war, as do war crimes, as do combatants getting emotional and taking their frustration out on the wrong people. As for people on the internet, slinging mud, they are angry. They want to maximize how much they hurt your feelings, in a sort of impotent rage at the social norms that don't let people give even gentle criticisms of Israel as well as not actually being able to do anything about the conflict in any direction. You saw this with people calling Russians orcs and relishing dead Russian conscripts. That doesn't mean Russia was innocent or justified in invading Ukraine. Let's also not forget that "The Internet Makes You Stupid." It's probably better to mute the conversation until tempers recede. Senjuro fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 10:58
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Senjuro posted:I'm not saying anyone should stop supporting the Palestinian cause because of this, I'm not even saying one needs to publicly condemn their every wrongdoing, but to go out of your way to start rationalizing why it's totally fine, actually, takes a special kind of brain rot. The brain rot is defending settler colonialism by insisting that one can simultaneously be an innocent civilian while knowingly enriching themselves at the expense of a colonized population. This brain rot most likely originates from you yourself being a settler who engages in a similar relation, and thus having reflexive solidarity with Israeli colonizers.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:03
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Red and Black posted:The brain rot is defending settler colonialism by insisting that one can simultaneously be an innocent civilian while knowingly enriching themselves at the expense of a colonized population. This brain rot most likely originates from you yourself being a settler who engages in a similar relation, and thus having reflexive solidarity with Israeli colonizers. There's even more brain rot in calling children "settlers"
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Oct 8, 2023 11:04
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Even being broadly supportive of Palestine it's impossible to defend this massacre. It will lead to an enormous escalation from Israel and terrifying consequences for the residents of Gaza.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:07
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nivdes posted:There's even more brain rot in calling children "settlers" Isn’t it a literal war crime to put children on stolen occupied land?
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Oct 8, 2023 11:07
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Senjuro posted:as in the logic of everyone in Israel is a settler and therefore a valid target The first post you cite is about Israeli settlers, ie those who illegally colonise Palestinean land while aided and abetted by the IDF. The second is a throwaway remark based on historic Palestinean borders, definitely a far cry from rationalising anything. Two posts also hardly constitutes "several" people, and widening the net to CSPAM when you explicitly scoped your remarks as being "ITT" is even more disingenuous.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:08
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nivdes posted:There's even more brain rot in calling children "settlers" They are but that doesn't mean they deserve to die or anything. The comparison I would make is when The United States did genocide to Native Americans and settled further and further west. Pioneers, my ancestors, were not lying about war crimes and massacres committed by Native Americans. And yet, Native Americans had a right to defend themselves, even if they were not perfect victims. It was the US government and its leaders, unreachable by Native American retaliation, that were primarily responsible, encouraging people to move to these areas, with their families, and also encouraging more violence.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:13
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Senjuro posted:I'm not saying anyone should stop supporting the Palestinian cause because of this, I'm not even saying one needs to publicly condemn their every wrongdoing, but to go out of your way to start rationalizing why blatant war crimes are totally fine, actually, takes a special kind of brain rot. I agree that no war crimes are acceptable. I think by now, you understand that most of us are trying to emphasize that fixating on Hamas’s war crimes fails to address the underlying cause of those war crimes. Now, my confusion is if you understand that fixating on the loudest and most offensive internet comments about the conflict also fails to acknowledge the underlying cause of those war crimes. It feels to me like this is part of the same pattern of focusing far more attention on the symptoms than on the disease
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Oct 8, 2023 11:13
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nivdes posted:There's even more brain rot in calling children "settlers" Now we've moved from "the settlers are poor innocent civilians" to "oh, we were only talking about children". Every child from a settler family that dies as collateral damage in the Palestinian struggle to liberate themselves from a genocidal oppressor is fully on Israel. Israel has all of the power. They could end this conflict overnight. Palestine has no power to end this conflict, they have been left with no choice but to defend themselves with violence. If you really cared about settler children and weren't just using them as a ploy to attack an indigenous liberation movement, you would direct your criticism away from the Palestinians who have no power and no choice and towards Israel which does.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:13
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Saying that "Israel does it too!" has to be one of the worst defenses. There's no excuse for anyone purposely or recklessly targeting civilians in any kind of armed conflict. It literally does not matter who does it, who shot first, or whatever else.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:15
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Over 300 dead and over 100 taken as hostages? That’s not a consequence that’s exactly what the Israeli state wants. Occasional meaningless death from a trapped populace lashing out in order to justify a slow grinding genocide You have described a feature not a bug.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:20
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dadrips posted:So the collective punishment of all Palestineans, even those who didn't participate in any attacks, is good in your view? Do you think doing that has helped Israel in any way, and is likely to make Palestineans as a whole consider them trustworthy neighbours? ... gently caress. Let's be serious. Arab Israelis (who, on the whole, consider themselves to be both Israelis and Palestinians) are in one condition (participating in Israeli society, citizens, residents, being discriminated against with "regular" racism that people in this thread aren't concerned about). Palestinians on the Western Bank are in another. Gazans are in another still. There's a real-politic rationality to the level of oppression increasing as does "resistance". This doesn't happen in vacuum - yeah, no poo poo. If you want a two state solution or a one state solution (someone earlier was under the impression that I have preference), or any solution that isn't "The Palestinians win, the Jews are "sent away" to live on a farm somewhere"- the primary condition would have to be convincing the Israeli public that the main goal of the Palestinians isn't killing them all. "What else could they do besides kill women and children and parade their bodies in the street... whoops, I meant bravely resist" is a particularly weird take right after a series of successful attacks on military outposts and bases - which would have been so much easier to sell to the Western public and even to leftist\moderate Israelis.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:21
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Saying that "Israel does it too!" has to be one of the worst defenses. There's no excuse for anyone purposely or recklessly targeting civilians in any kind of armed conflict. It literally does not matter who does it, who shot first, or whatever else.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:24
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Saying that "Israel does it too!" has to be one of the worst defenses. There's no excuse for anyone purposely or recklessly targeting civilians in any kind of armed conflict. It literally does not matter who does it, who shot first, or whatever else. I would say that every military or fighting force of every kind from the modern era to antiquity regularly does this when they are in combat. One of the worst features of humanity is that we think that violence is fun. We think it is fun because we need to do violence sometimes against people who threaten and hurt us. Unfortunately it does not stop being fun when the persons receiving the violence no longer deserve that violence. Hamas should not kill random people or abduct random people. They should not kill kids and old ladies. They should not vent decades of anger on civilian populations. But we're getting away from the root causes aren't we? We're getting pulled into a discussion of tactics, holding victims of genocide to a perfect victim standard. We are getting away from why these people were nearby in the first place. We are getting away from what the conflict is even about in the first place or how it was Israel that made almost every Israeli a member of the IDF by law. The worst people in the world, who are the root of this conflict, who set these people up: their necks are not on the line, at all. They are the ones who settled people in these areas. They are the ones giving the orders, spreading propaganda that dehumanized and demonized Palestinians for decades.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:24
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Captain Oblivious posted:That’s not a consequence that’s exactly what the Israeli state wants. Occasional meaningless death from a trapped populace lashing out in order to justify a slow grinding genocide lol, like, there are going to be tribunals after this poo poo, this is a complete failure of the "conflict management doctrine" it's not a desired consequence of it.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:27
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dadrips posted:So the same logic that the Israeli goveenment use when enforcing collective guilt against those in the gaza strip, through not just military action but economic sanctions, limits on freedom of movement and restrictions on aid? Wonderful! dadrips posted:The first post you cite is about Israeli settlers, ie those who illegally colonise Palestinean land while aided and abetted by the IDF. The second is a throwaway remark based on historic Palestinean borders, definitely a far cry from rationalising anything. dadrips posted:Two posts also hardly constitutes "several" people, and widening the net to CSPAM when you explicitly scoped your remarks as being "ITT" is even more disingenuous.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:33
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dadrips posted:If Israel's duty is to protect its citizens, why does it permit the construction of habitations in areas where it knows (or should know) full well any civilian residents will be at severe risk of attack? Why does it put its own people in harm's way so readily and easily, instead of saying "hmm, maybe not a great idea to build houses next to the place we've locked up a bunch of angry Palestineans for 50+ years"? It's a country the size of New Jersey. emanresu tnuocca posted:lol, like, there are going to be tribunals after this poo poo, this is a complete failure of the "conflict management doctrine" it's not a desired consequence of it.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:34
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Xander77 posted:So the collective massacre of all Israe- The palestinians in the West Bank, even though they are playing ball and not violently killing israelis, are still being oppressed and humiliated and having their lands and water stolen and all that on a daily basis Israel could stop doing those things, if they want to convince palestinians their goal is not to oppress them into oblivion,, but they do not. And unlike Gaza, Israel is rich democratic state, not a huge collective of miserable and desperate people who can’t even choose to leave
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Oct 8, 2023 11:34
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dadrips posted:If Israel's duty is to protect its citizens, why does it permit the construction of habitations in areas where it knows (or should know) full well any civilian residents will be at severe risk of attack? Why does it put its own people in harm's way so readily and easily, instead of saying "hmm, maybe not a great idea to build houses next to the place we've locked up a bunch of angry Palestineans for 50+ years"? The short version, is because they - the Netanyahu and his far-right government are idiots. I can't speak well of other governments either. Zoeb posted:I would say that every military or fighting force of every kind from the modern era to antiquity regularly does this when they are in combat. One of the worst features of humanity is that we think that violence is fun. We think it is fun because we need to do violence sometimes against people who threaten and hurt us. Unfortunately it does not stop being fun when the persons receiving the violence no longer deserve that violence. Hamas should not kill random people or abduct random people. They should not kill kids and old ladies. They should not vent decades of anger on civilian populations. They have been numerous armed conflicts in the the modern area (post WW2) and while you do see awful things occurring it's quite clear some use these tactics much more than others so much at times it's not grey but black and white. I'm not sure of your point? Sure, the conflict hasn't occurred in a vacuum. Everyone here already knows that.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:36
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dadrips posted:If Israel's duty is to protect its citizens, why does it permit the construction of habitations in areas where it knows (or should know) full well any civilian residents will be at severe risk of attack? Why does it put its own people in harm's way so readily and easily, instead of saying "hmm, maybe not a great idea to build houses next to the place we've locked up a bunch of angry Palestineans for 50+ years"? Not just permit but in a lot of cases actively encourage.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:41
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Red and Black posted:Now we've moved from "the settlers are poor innocent civilians" to "oh, we were only talking about children". Every child from a settler family that dies as collateral damage in the Palestinian struggle to liberate themselves from a genocidal oppressor is fully on Israel. Israel has all of the power. They could end this conflict overnight. Palestine has no power to end this conflict, they have been left with no choice but to defend themselves with violence. If you really cared about settler children and weren't just using them as a ploy to attack an indigenous liberation movement, you would direct your criticism away from the Palestinians who have no power and no choice and towards Israel which does. Collateral damage, is incidental, undesired. That doesn't apply when when you have a child in front of you and there's literally nothing in the world forcing you to abduct them.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:45
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Xander77 posted:"What else could they do besides kill women and children and parade their bodies in the street... whoops, I meant bravely resist" is a particularly weird take right after a series of successful attacks on military outposts and bases - which would have been so much easier to sell to the Western public and even to leftist\moderate Israelis. So are you allowing for Hamas attacking military targets being legitimate resistance? Lol at the idea that the western public and moderate Israelis can be convinced to respect this, but this leads to the conclusion that some of the recent attack is atrocious but some is justified, right?
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Oct 8, 2023 11:47
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:So are you allowing for Hamas attacking military targets being legitimate resistance? As we saw this weekend, the military targets are attacked primarily so the death squads can freely operate.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:51
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:So are you allowing for Hamas attacking military targets being legitimate resistance? I'd rather no one on either side killed civilians, since not killing anyone at all is not an option. And yeah, you can *easily* get an "I understand why they're trying to fight us" from a fairly average Israeli (or from an Israeli prime minister barely two decades ago), never mind a both-sides bystander. Not so much "oh yeah, that German tourist who came here to participate in a peace festival got exactly what's coming to her".
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Oct 8, 2023 11:53
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This thread seems to be mostly devoted to arguing about the rightness or wrongness of various actions. Is there a thread on these boards that is more news & analysis? A lot about this war is yet unknown and I'm looking for a place to get info.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:57
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Senjuro posted:I mean you've already marked every single adult as worthy of death quote:so the thought was maybe you're not so far gone that you'd at least think children should be spared but apparently not. Incidentally though, I took a look through your posts in this thread and it doesn't seem like you've ever once mentioned Israel kidnapping Palestinian children. How interesting that the topic of child kidnapping only piques your interest when it's the children of settlers? I wonder what the difference is?
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Oct 8, 2023 11:58
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Red and Black posted:So now we've shifted the goal posts once again and we're not talking about killing children but taking hostages. Obviously an attack like this was going to invite massive genocidal retaliation by Israel. Therefore taking hostages is crucial in giving the Palestinians leverage to ward off airstrikes and for later negotiations for exchange of prisoners. Israel holds thousands of Palestinian child prisoners in its torture dungeons, how are the Palestinians supposed to get them back? Once again, Israel has all of the power in this situation. The fact that the Palestinians are in desperation taking hostages now is entirely on Israel. But for some reason you blame the indigenous liberation movement rather than the colonizer. CeeJee posted:As we saw this weekend, the military targets are attacked primarily so the death squads can freely operate. Well that is bad but I have to point to the old saying. "Hurt people hurt people."
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Oct 8, 2023 12:03
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Count Roland posted:This thread seems to be mostly devoted to arguing about the rightness or wrongness of various actions. The current events thread in Goons in Platoons is relatively level-headed Task & Purpose also posted a good recap of yesterday's events that is rather apolitical https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXiW6hhC6Bs EDIT: Zoeb posted:Ah that makes sense. I wasn't sure what the kidnapping was about. I do hope Israel releases Palestinian children from its jails. That is essentially the same as kidnapping. I feel this article illustrates pretty well what Israeli citizens are feeling, has been the daily status quo for Palestinians for years. https://www.972mag.com/gaza-attack-context-israelis/ Fragrag fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 12:03
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Xander77 posted:You could try talking to the actual person you're talking to, rather than some figment of your imagination? I'm talking to you and you're welcome to answer. I think that nobody should kill civilians and that it's bad that Hamas has killed civilians, but they have also, as you have yourself pointed out, attacked numerous military targets. Is attacking military targets legitimate resistance in your view? I'm curious as to how one can square this viewpoint (other than, obviously, saying that all resistance is illegitimate) without appearing to "make excuses" for Hamas in the eyes of the vast majority of the population.
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Oct 8, 2023 12:11
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Red and Black posted:Nobody has said that anywhere in this thread. It's a delusional straw man which you have applied to your opponents because you are incapable of responding to, or perhaps even of comprehending what is actually being said. What am I missing? Red and Black posted:So now we've shifted the goal posts once again and we're not talking about killing children but taking hostages. Obviously an attack like this was going to invite massive genocidal retaliation by Israel. Therefore taking hostages is crucial in giving the Palestinians leverage to ward off airstrikes and for later negotiations for exchange of prisoners. Israel holds thousands of Palestinian child prisoners in its torture dungeons, how are the Palestinians supposed to get them back? Once again, Israel has all of the power in this situation. The fact that the Palestinians are in desperation taking hostages now is entirely on Israel. But for some reason you blame the indigenous liberation movement rather than the colonizer. Red and Black posted:Incidentally though, I took a look through your posts in this thread and it doesn't seem like you've ever once mentioned Israel kidnapping Palestinian children. How interesting that the topic of child kidnapping only piques your interest when it's the children of settlers? I wonder what the difference is? Senjuro fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 12:13
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:I'm curious as to how one can square this viewpoint (other than, obviously, saying that all resistance is illegitimate) without appearing to "make excuses" for Hamas in the eyes of the vast majority of the population. CeeJee posted:As we saw this weekend, the military targets are attacked primarily so the death squads can freely operate. ... Elias_Maluco posted:The palestinians in the West Bank, even though they are playing ball and not violently killing israelis, are still being oppressed and humiliated and having their lands and water stolen and all that on a daily basis But it's a lot easier to sell to them under the guise of security concerns, protection from the people who want to kill them all. quote:And unlike Gaza, Israel is rich democratic state, not a huge collective of miserable and desperate people who can’t even choose to leave "World's largest ghetto" is right there. It's emotionally evocative, it's accurate. Bantustan is also there, but I feel like those had better conditions on the whole? "Largest prison" is not, because anyone can leave Gaza. Israel doesn't want the Palestinians there (or anywhere). It's finding somewhere that will accept you and \ or getting back in that's an issue. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 12:18
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Xander77 posted:I have a hard time understanding what point you're trying to make \ what question you're trying to ask. Maybe this? The question I am trying to ask is very clear: Is attacking military targets legitimate resistance in your view? CeeJee posted:As we saw this weekend, the military targets are attacked primarily so the death squads can freely operate. I consider this response to be the 'no' you're attempting to dance around, and this is the point I'm trying to make, thanks.
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Oct 8, 2023 12:26
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:The question I am trying to ask is very clear: Is attacking military targets legitimate resistance in your view?
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Oct 8, 2023 12:31
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The bottom line now--and effectively for my entire lifetime since the Oslo Accords--is that it it is incumbent on Israelis to come up with a workable and just solution. It's important to remember for people stumbling into contemporary events without knowing much about the I/P struggle that the Israeli government holds all the cards in this scenario. Its citizens live in relative comfort and security (even this event, the most devastating Palestinian attack on Israel in decades, resulted in only a few hundred killed in one small sliver of the country near Gaza), enjoying the massive military and financial support of the West (a huge chunk of Israel's economy is connected in one way or another to its military industrial complex, which has effectively been financed by the USA, for instance). The Palestinians, by contrast, have tried the full range of resistant measures and just keep losing ground. They have effectively enjoyed no foreign support apart from Iran and Lebanon since the Second Intifada, and even the token supportive rhetoric they received from other Arab states has basically disappeared with the rapprochement between Israel and the Gulf States. These events always trigger the "we'll stop doing X when they stop doing Y" debate, but, again, Israel is 95% responsible for where we are now and Israelis are entirely responsible for coming up with a solution to this problem as it stands. All recent efforts at coming up with new "peace deals" have involved Israel giving up tiny concessions to the Palestinians while the government has actively worsened conditions in Gaza and supported settlers progressively taking control of more and more of East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Just remember next time someone tuts and condemns this senseless violence on the part of the Palestinians that the recent "peace deals" with the Gulf States were basically going to enshrine this status quo, and no doubt embolden the Israeli right wing (which is now basically the only effective political bloc in the country) to continue ethnically cleansing the post-1967 borders of Palestine. By the way, before any Israelis turn around with a "that's easy for you to say, living in X country," I live in the UK, and I feel the same way about Hamas' actions as I do about the IRA's attacks prior to the Good Friday accords. Should these groups be killing civilians? No. But it's incumbent on the dominant power--in this case, Israel; in that case, the UK--to come up with a workable and just solution to the conflict. So long as any dominant power refuses to do so, its citizens will suffer violent attacks from the powerless.
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Oct 8, 2023 12:41
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Fragrag posted:The current events thread in Goons in Platoons is relatively level-headed Thanks
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Oct 8, 2023 12:43
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There's some push to set up an emergency government in light of this crisis: The opposition heads suggested joining a lean government without some of the most corrupt motherfuckers but currently Bibi will not give up any of his puppets, that man wants all of the power.
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Oct 8, 2023 12:44
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MeinPanzer posted:The bottom line now--and effectively for my entire lifetime since the Oslo Accords--is that it it is incumbent on Israelis to come up with a workable and just solution. It's important to remember for people stumbling into contemporary events without knowing much about the I/P struggle that the Israeli government holds all the cards in this scenario. Its citizens live in relative comfort and security (even this event, the most devastating Palestinian attack on Israel in decades, resulted in only a few hundred killed in one small sliver of the country near Gaza), enjoying the massive military and financial support of the West (a huge chunk of Israel's economy is connected in one way or another to its military industrial complex, which has effectively been financed by the USA, for instance). The Palestinians, by contrast, have tried the full range of resistant measures and just keep losing ground. They have effectively enjoyed no foreign support apart from Iran and Lebanon since the Second Intifada, and even the token supportive rhetoric they received from other Arab states has basically disappeared with the rapprochement between Israel and the Gulf States. Senjuro fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 13:02
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Official death toll on the Israeli side is now reported at 600, with an additional 350 in serious or critical condition. After one day of fighting.
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Oct 8, 2023 13:09
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