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Which bear is fat bear? This poll is closed. |
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| 435 Holly |
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10 | 16.39% |
| A New Challenger |
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18 | 29.51% |
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Herstory Begins Now posted:yeah, at least from the pov of Israel's enemies, if there ever was a fortuitous moment to kick something off against israel then this likely would be it. things are no doubt a shitshow on a bunch of levels because of the judicial overhaul and yeah US ability to provide support is almost certainly at the lowest point it will be for a while regardless of whatever statements to the contrary are made publicly. What support would Israel need from the US that they don’t already have? I’m no expert but seems like they already have diplomatic cover as Hamas is seen as the aggressor, trump giving them a total pass has mostly continued under Biden, they probably have plenty of ammo and they don’t need advanced anti-armor or fighters, and US would never send troops anyway, what else is there? Not trying to be flippant just not sure what we didn’t already give.
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Oct 8, 2023 04:17
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TheWeedNumber posted:idk how to tell you my nigga but the Arabs would have killed them all by now if they could. Certainly during the Cold War for sure. Did they turn into monsters in the process, yep Israel sure is that hosed up apartheid state. Does my daddy still brag about when Jews get smoked and it makes the news? Yes. Did he tell his 12 year old son, beaming with pride, about the time he and the platoon he commanded played soccer with Israeli skulls during the Yom Kippur war? Also yes. drat dude that’s a messed up story
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Oct 8, 2023 04:27
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Yeah, there's no support that even the wildest "forever war in the holy land to bring about the second coming" types could come up with to send to Israel that they don't already either possess or have the capacity to produce themselves. It's not like the war in Ukraine where the US-aligned side is being attacked by a nuclear weapons power with near-limitless manpower; they are the nuclear weapons power with near-limitless manpower.
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Oct 8, 2023 04:28
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Kazinsal posted:; they are the nuclear weapons power with near-limitless manpower. Yea, I don't think it needs saying in here but randos out in the world probably forgot, this isnt a plucky upstart trying to fight off the "arab hordes" this is basically a nuclear armed state, armed with nearly the latest and greatest tech, with a home grown military industrial complex, against a group of people using the best that can make it through smuggling and plucky at home engineering. Israels big ask from the international community is probably along the lines of "if you hear screaming dont do anything about it" rather than a want for resources.
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Oct 8, 2023 04:47
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It’s about as lopsided as if the United States went to war with Baja California.
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Oct 8, 2023 04:53
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There's videos on X / Twitter where Hamas corralled a bunch of women and young girls and called them sex slaves. There's video of them riding around in a pickup with the dead body of a half naked woman, with people spitting on her corpse. Apparently it was a German tourist who was captured by Hamas at a peace promoting music festival. There's video of a woman being driven away to unspeakable horrors and her screaming. There's videos of dozens of dead unarmed civilians piled in a room with Hamas still shooting the bodies. This is ISIS level terror. gently caress anyone who justifies this poo poo. Bored As Fuck fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 04:59
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Platystemon posted:It’s about as lopsided as if the United States went to war with Baja California. much closer in terms of population, GDP and land area would be Switzerland vs Columbus OH
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Oct 8, 2023 05:03
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shame on an IGA posted:much closer in terms of population, GDP and land area would be Switzerland vs Columbus OH This made me look it up, and the Swiss Armed Forces have over 100,000 active personnel. God drat, Switzerland.
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Oct 8, 2023 05:06
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Kazinsal posted:This made me look it up, and the Swiss Armed Forces have over 100,000 active personnel.
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Oct 8, 2023 05:16
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Bored As gently caress posted:There's videos on X / Twitter where Hamas corralled a bunch of women and young girls and called them sex slaves. To say that this is entirely a problem of Israel's own making, that they are currently reaping, isn't justification. Their next steps are entirely too predictable. They will earn praise as long as they don't butcher the civilian population while Gaza and the West Bank continue to be strangled and de facto apartheid continues to be the law of the land.
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Oct 8, 2023 05:18
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Hey, why is it that whenever a state built on Racism and Oppression starts FINDING OUT, people start pearl clutching "BUT THE WOMEN WILL SUFFER". IN the Civil War and during Reconstruction, everyone talking about how the Yankees would "Defame the honor of the Southern Lady" and how Carpetbaggers and hordes of Negroes would do unspeakable things to Southern Women In Rhodesia, you had that too, lots of talk about what the Black Communist Hordes would do to the Good White Women of Rhodesia Same thing in Apartheid South Africa Same thing in loving Sparta, with the fear that the Helots would do unspeakable things to the Spartiate women. Same thing in Saint Domingue, this time back with Black Slaves and White Women. Same thing in Korea and China, with Japanese women and Chinese or Korean Men. Same thing in the many, many Irish revolts against English Rule. We're probably going to hear the same thing if Ukraine ever retakes Crimea! Edit: Oppression and settler Colonialism has many tactics to justify itself. One of the most enduring one of those, that some of the posters in this very thread are complicit in, is the whole "These monsters will do horrible things to OUR WOMEN, THE MONSTERS" thing. That somehow, women in a society based on oppression and genocide and sometimes Slavery aren't also culpable for the actions of that society. That the slavering hordes will do horrible, unpseakable things to them which is WHY we need to do violence to them. It's pretty hosed up and i'm dissapointed in anyone who pushes that kind of tack. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 05:31
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Hyrax Attack! posted:What support would Israel need from the US that they don’t already have? I’m no expert but seems like they already have diplomatic cover as Hamas is seen as the aggressor, trump giving them a total pass has mostly continued under Biden, they probably have plenty of ammo and they don’t need advanced anti-armor or fighters, and US would never send troops anyway, what else is there? Not trying to be flippant just not sure what we didn’t already give. I'm saying that specifically in the context of the hypothetical of this escalating into the greater regional conflict, eg the one that Iran has envisioned and Israel has been dipping its toes into for years. In that situation I am significantly skeptical that Israel has everything it would conceivably need. Thankfully that is still a hypothetical. How much and how effectively Israel has been preparing for an actual war vs just continuing to put down people barely able to fight back is really anyone's guess. On a related note, https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-quietly-shipping-ammo-to-ukraine-from-massive-stockpile-in-israel-report/ I don't really buy that one war has completely different fundamental needs from another war. Hopefully this doesn't continue to escalate 
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Oct 8, 2023 05:37
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Fivemarks posted:Hey, why is it that whenever a state built on Racism and Oppression starts FINDING OUT, people start pearl clutching "BUT THE WOMEN WILL SUFFER". Quoting this so that you can’t edit it out later because dude what the gently caress is this post.
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Oct 8, 2023 05:49
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Fivemarks posted:Hey, why is it that whenever a state built on Racism and Oppression starts FINDING OUT, people start pearl clutching "BUT THE WOMEN WILL SUFFER". For posterity
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Oct 8, 2023 05:50
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…what the gently caress?
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Oct 8, 2023 05:53
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pantslesswithwolves posted:Quoting this so that you can’t edit it out later because dude what the gently caress is this post. the internet was a mistake
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Oct 8, 2023 05:54
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Two certainties: 1) Israel is going to kill a bunch of people now and 2) absolutely everyone is going to be spinning this incessantly in favor of their own narrative. sunni governments could not, and i can't express this enough, care less about palestinians. they might bang the drum about arab oppression for domestic consumption, but the governments in the region 100% do not give a single poo poo about the actual palestinian people. the average sentiment in these countries may be hateful towards israel and jews, but the actions of the governments over the last 30 years are diametric. the egyptians are active military partners with the IAF, and the jordanians are similarly cooperative, just more quietly. what was likely the impetus for hamas to launch this attack was the prospect of saudi warming relations to the level of egypt.
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Oct 8, 2023 05:55
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brains posted:sunni governments could not, and i can't express this enough, care less about palestinians. they might bang the drum about arab oppression for domestic consumption, but the governments in the region 100% do not give a single poo poo about the actual palestinian people. the average sentiment in these countries may be hateful towards israel and jews, but the actions of the governments over the last 30 years are diametric. the egyptians are active military partners with the IAF, and the jordanians are similarly cooperative, just more quietly. what was likely the impetus for hamas to launch this attack was the prospect of saudi warming relations to the level of egypt. I said sunni arab world not sunni governments. sunni arab governments indeed do not give a single gently caress about palestinians in any way that actually appears to matter.
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Oct 8, 2023 05:59
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pantslesswithwolves posted:Quoting this so that you can’t edit it out later because dude what the gently caress is this post. Jesus loving Christ. I think the imperialism debate is kinda nuanced when it comes to the Holy Land in general, it was being conquered well, well before the aftermath of the second World War. I really wish people would stop fighting over the place where a couple false prophets died. I especially wish they would stop murdering civilians over it. I know that's wishy washy as gently caress, but it just loving sucks for no good reason.
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Oct 8, 2023 06:25
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Elviscat posted:I especially wish they would stop murdering civilians over it. I know that's wishy washy as gently caress, but it just loving sucks for no good reason. That isn't wishy washy so much as correct and humane
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Oct 8, 2023 06:26
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Elviscat posted:I really wish people would stop fighting over the place where a couple false prophets died. I especially wish they would stop murdering civilians over it. I know that's wishy washy as gently caress, but it just loving sucks for no good reason. This is the only rational response IMO.
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Oct 8, 2023 06:27
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This entire debacle is just going to cause mass suffering on both sides. Which was probably Hamas's aim. That, and to gently caress up the warming of relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel.
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Oct 8, 2023 06:27
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...5806_story.html hezbollah firing into Israel from the northern border, Israel responding. appears to be relatively small scale so far
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Oct 8, 2023 09:48
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Fivemarks posted:I don't see any difference between Israel and Rhodesia, except that one group of white people had the added smokescreen for settler colonialism of "Jewish". This needs to be quoted for posterity as well. JFC.
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Oct 8, 2023 09:49
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In better news, a new Steve1989MRE video is out. https://youtu.be/fujoYuQ4VXE?si=dZVVqlloRLddoctx
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Oct 8, 2023 10:10
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O.K. that looks pretty good, but I’ve read enough about Canadian procurement to know that it’s got to have cost an absurd amount.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:30
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Everyone in this thread should already know this, but since when has already knowing something gotten you out of a briefing on it? https://twitter.com/BenjaminGoggin/status/1710759937243017541
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Oct 8, 2023 10:36
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on the other hand wasting twitter's money is good and cool
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Oct 8, 2023 10:38
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Elviscat posted:I really wish people would stop fighting over the place where a couple false prophets died. I especially wish they would stop murdering civilians over it. I know that's wishy washy as gently caress, but it just loving sucks for no good reason. I think calling it just a religious conflict is a bit disingenious. The Palestinian issue is just as much(in fact, probably more!) because the land is where they lived, where their families lived, where their ancestors lived... and someone just moved in and shoved them out of their homes, pushed them into ever smaller sections of it, demolished their old homes, cut down their farms and groves, set up their own settlements there and now rolls into their new, smaller living space and occasionally kills and kidnaps some of them. Obviously the ultra-right Israeli motiviation is very religious, and when they gently caress around with places like the Al-Aqsa mosque, religion makes it extra bullshit for the Palestinians, but the fundamental conflict is about stolen land and stolen homes, and all the crimes and atrocities committed in the process.
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Oct 8, 2023 11:21
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Elviscat posted:I really wish people would stop fighting over the place where a couple false prophets died. I especially wish they would stop murdering civilians over it. I know that's wishy washy as gently caress, but it just loving sucks for no good reason. "my people" are killing and dying, throughout the Muslim world and across the historical record, for a lie. You know how many times I've been told in the masjid or by other muslims that the Quran can't be changed. If you gently caress with so much as a syllable everyone will know and therefore you can't fabricate this bitch. Pops even told me some fanciful poo poo like "yo you wanna know the real Quran, go to the desert with the Bedouins in Saudi, their poo poo never changed." Even the wikipedia skim is enough to let a dude know ain't no angels talked to that motherfucker. Its a flawed human creation. A divine text doesn't have "more than a hundred aberrations" from how Arabic as a language is supposed to work. No one should be talking about "every fifth or so sentence" just doesn't make sense. If I had to actually dig into the academic research on this poo poo I'm sure the flaws will get bigger and wider than goatman's butthole. I really wanna say some poo poo like "how can you kill for a lie" but then I caught myself and remembered where I am. Hahahahaa we all know about that or supporting that don't we? tl;dr misanthropy is starting to look real good to me on some days. Why do we kill each other? For loving what? Was it that important in the end? It don't look that way from here. anyway, wake me up when bibi tries the ethnic cleansing speed run or some poo poo, ma salaam habibis
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Oct 8, 2023 13:43
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pmchem posted:drat dude that’s a messed up story war does strange things to the mind and makes the bizarre acceptable. throw in what I inferred as spetsnaz dudes in leningrad training him even harder* than the Thunderbolt dudes in Egypt and mix in pure hate for jews + propaganda and you get a mofo who'll break bread with a jew here in a America but call me up at 8pm talking about "DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THE GUY WHO SHOT THE ISRAELS IN THE SINAI. HE'S A loving COMMANDO JUST LIKE YOUR DAD. EGYPTIAN ARMY. SIX DEAD. loving COMMANDO..." *looks up the incident* smdh dad you can't even get the numbers right *tunes back into the convo* "....loving COMMANDO I TELL YOU WHAT. Hey when are you gonna come visit I miss you habibi, its been four years. I love you son." *e.g. the egyptian army's thunderbolt academy or w/e you call their schoolhouse apparently liked to whip the trainees in the pool for not swimming fast enough, if it gives you any taste of their methodology. W/e it takes to get dudes to throw themselves ONTO a machinegun bunker on the barlev line, dying to let his homies frag and clear it right? TheWeedNumber fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 13:54
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oh hey speaking of egyptians smoking ISRAELS https://www.ft.com/content/6ed733f0-6a83-4979-914d-38419ef7b352 i was googling what pops called me about that day and GUESS WHAT JUST HAPPENED AN HOUR AGO (or was reported an hour ago anyway) quote:Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
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Oct 8, 2023 14:13
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Some loving gross takes in the thread. I'm hesitant to post this because almost every time I've tried to talk about persistent antisemitism laundering in the western narrative of Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people on SA I've gotten blood libeled and had posters accusing me of believing things I explicitly said I stand against. So please take what I say in good faith. So let's get the disclaimers out of the way, genocide is bad, racism is bad, misogyny is bad, homophobia and transphobia are bad, and the Israeli apartheid state is bad because it loves to do all of those to an ever increasing degree. I am Jewish and I don't see the Israeli state as a legitimate Jewish state because of its crimes against humanity. If we have to make a historical analogy it's hard because nothing comparable exists but it sure as hell ain't loving Rhodesia. If we're really going here then the closest appropriate analogy is Liberia. Question for the group, was the repatriation movement to send African-American slaves back to Africa a settler-colonial movement? How would you feel if in the 1920s as a response to the second rise of the KKK hundreds of thousands to millions of African Americans began moving to European colonies in Africa and forming independence movements? A defining component for Jewish culture for the past two millennia is the belief that the Jewish people are indigenous to the land of Israel and that someday the diaspora would end. This belief was hardened through centuries of persecution, displacement, cultural and actual genocide further cementing the idea that the Jewish people will always be seen as outsiders and never fully welcome in any other country. A defining feature of western antisemitism has been the Christian belief of supersessionism, the idea that the Jewish people broke the convenient of God by denying Jesus, and therefore the Christian faithful are the rightful inheritors of the covenant and the holy land. Supersessionism persisted as a concept well after the Holocaust and founding of Israel. The Catholic Church didn't seriously refute it until Vatican 2. Using the settler-colonial narrative to describe Israel is inherently casting judgement on the legitimacy of an entire ethno-religious minority's cultural beliefs and foundation and does so in a way that aligns with one of the West's oldest anti-Semitic tropes. This is complicated by the illegal west bank settlements and settler movement. IMHO yeah go ahead and call them settlements because it's a violation of Israel's own laws and treaty obligations. And the reality is that the Palestinians are not responsible for the diaspora and have an equally legitimate claim to the land as their home, they deserve a space for their own state and self determination as much as the Jewish people do. I believe finding an ending to this that doesn't involve ethnic cleansing would be easier and would have been easier if we could actually acknowledge the role western antisemitism played in creating, developing, and legitimizing the modern Zionist movement and also the western guilt over it's antisemitism in the wake of the Holocaust played in enabling the situation to deteriorate. This situation didn't happen in a vacuum. I also unfortunately don't believe that there can be an ending without extreme violence and human suffering at this point but I occasionally think about praying to the God I don't believe in that I'm wrong. There are plenty of ways rightly condemn Israel without veering into places that get very racist very quickly. Please be careful when using settler language to stick to the illegal occupation settlements and stay away from getting into discussions about whether the Jewish people have legitimate beliefs about their homeland. Israel is a violent, racist, apartheid state that's genociding the Palestinian people. So it's easy to condemn the actions done in the name of that belief without getting into the racist weeds of deciding when you can declare the belief illegitimate.
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Oct 8, 2023 14:55
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Rhodesia posted:Rhodesia (/roʊˈdiːʒə/ ⓘ, /roʊˈdiːʃə/; Shona: Rodizha), officially from 1970 the Republic of Rhodesia, was an unrecognised state in Southern Africa from 1965 to 1979, equivalent in territory to modern Zimbabwe. Rhodesia was the de facto successor state to the British colony of Southern Rhodesia, which had been self-governing since achieving responsible government in 1923. A landlocked nation, Rhodesia was bordered by South Africa to the south, Bechuanaland (later Botswana) to the southwest, Zambia (formerly Northern Rhodesia) to the northwest, and Mozambique (a Portuguese province until 1975) to the east. From 1965 to 1979, Rhodesia was one of two independent states on the African continent governed by a white minority of European descent and culture, the other being South Africa Israel posted:In the 19th century, Jews began immigrating to the area as part of the Zionist movement. After World War I, the allied powers assigned the Mandate for Palestine to Britain, which during the war made a declaration of support for the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine. Following World War II and the Holocaust, the newly formed United Nations adopted the Partition Plan for Palestine, recommending the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states, and placing Jerusalem under international control. In the final months of the British Mandate, a civil war broke out between the Palestinian Arabs and the Yishuv, beginning the first stage of the 1948 Palestine war. The British terminated the Mandate on 14 May 1948, and Israel declared independence that day. Two minority ethnostates founded by the British.
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Oct 8, 2023 14:57
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Wasabi the J posted:Two minority ethnostates founded by the British. The Dutch settled southern Africa. The British ended up seizing the territory in the 20th century.
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Oct 8, 2023 15:05
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Sorry, abandoned by*
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Oct 8, 2023 15:08
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Soylent Pudding posted:Some loving gross takes in the thread. OTOH, a cultural belief doesn't magically grant you the right to... colonize an already existing place. By force. "My great, great, great grandparents used to live in this house and we've been persecuted since we got kicked out" doesn't somehow make it right for you to effectively steal the poo poo of someone 15 generations down the line who inherited it.
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Oct 8, 2023 15:14
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I should probably clarify, I was pretty loving angry earlier in the morning. Like, yeah, obviously, there's never any justification for killing civilians. But I was more going for "Hey, take videos on facebook and on the internet that say they're showing wild Palestinean crimes like Rounding Up All the Women for the Rape Camps with a grain of salt until they're confirmed." I absolutely could've been more clear here, and for that, I'm sorry. I was angry because "Reports and claims of atrocities by the occupied and oppressed towards their occupiers nd oppressed (Especially women)" are pretty loving commonly used to justify all manner of bad poo poo, and I wanted to head that off here, and I'm sorry if that came off as "gently caress those Women," because that wasn't my intention. Soylent Pudding posted:Some loving gross takes in the thread. Yes, that would be Settler Colonial Movement. Liberia even did all the classic Settler Colonist things and it blew up in the Amero-Liberian minority's faces the same way it blew up for the Settler-Colonialist ethnostates in South Africa and Rhodesia and Israel. And that would've been hard to do because unlike the Jewish Identity, which is tied up with Israel, the African American identity may have ties to Africa but our homeland is the United States of America. We don't have any other place to go: We're culturally distinct enough from African societies that we can't just slot in (And generally face racism from africans who believe American stereotypes about african americans) , and we don't want to go anywhere. As for the rest of it that "No we're jewish so our settler colonialism is okay" bit - Diarrhea Elemental posted:OTOH, a cultural belief doesn't magically grant you the right to... colonize an already existing place. By force. "My great, great, great grandparents used to live in this house and we've been persecuted since we got kicked out" doesn't somehow make it right for you to effectively steal the poo poo of someone 15 generations down the line who inherited it. This. Wasabi the J posted:Sorry, abandoned by* If we want to get technical, Rhodesia made a Unilateral Declaration of Independence when Britain said that one of the requirements for independence was majority rule. The White Rhodesians said "no" and declared independence unilaterally and dared the British to do something about it. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 16:13
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Platystemon posted:O.K. that looks pretty good, but I’ve read enough about Canadian procurement to know that it’s got to have cost an absurd amount. you say that like its not true about american procurement
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Oct 8, 2023 16:34
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My Spirit Otter posted:you say that like its not true about american procurement Unlike Canadian procurement, a product that generally meets requirements is received on the other end of the process.
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Oct 8, 2023 16:41
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