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Eiba posted:What it is supposed to be is something Israel can't ignore. They can't keep slowly smothering Gaza and pretending like that's fine. It was a nihilistic and suicidal move. There were actual active attacks on IDF forces that were extremely successful and could've further benefitted from the resources instead tasked into literal death squads. If they'd dumped every rocket and sent every dude assigned to terrorizing civilians to gently caress up IDF southern command they could've overrun the entire fence line position, achieving an unheralded defeat directly into the forces of the occupation itself while accomplishing their political goals. Instead they've made not just Hamas but the entire resistance axis across both banks out to be cross-generational monsters.
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Oct 8, 2023 20:12
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Eiba posted:It's not meant to be propaganda. It's meant to be horrific. They look weak and incompetent but there's a pretty straightforward solution to that given their control of the military. In the longer term I think Israel will become more right wing and oppressive and their policies will essentially continue as before.
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Oct 8, 2023 20:15
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zer0spunk posted:Shooting a bunch of dreadlocked 20 year olds on mushrooms is not really the positive propaganda they might think it is Definitely. But propaganda isn't even in the top 5 things on their minds doing this poo poo. A lot of them would be in the mind to just do as much revenge damage as possible for being kept up in a hellhole for decades.
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Oct 8, 2023 20:22
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Saudi was getting close to normalizing relations with Israel so Hamas acts up to undermine the deal and garner sympathy. I see people saying this but I'm not sure it tracks. MBS calls the shots in Saudi Arabia, he appears to give about 1/10th of one single gently caress about public opinion, he likes big rave parties, and he cares a lot more about economics and futurism than he does about pan-Arab politics. I really do not see this garnering even one iota of sympathy from MBS personally to the Gazan cause. Maybe Israel will do something particularly horrific in response, but if they "just" bomb a whole bunch of apartment blocks in Gaza and cut the average power supply to 30 minutes/day, then I don't see it affecting rapprochement.
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Oct 8, 2023 20:28
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CNN is reporting that 260 people were killed at that music festival. 
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Oct 8, 2023 20:32
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What actual vested interest does the western world have in keeping Israel around other than US Republicans believing it's necessary to start Armageddon? I loving hate that my government is never gonna do the right thing for Palestine ever and that I'm always gonna be a slave for the empire on the wrong side. To see this conflict explode and then see my president wholly condemn a people under genocide is soul crushing.
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Oct 8, 2023 20:39
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https://www.businessinsider.com/credit-card-shani-louk-naked-paraded-hamas-israel-palestine-gaza-2023-10quote:But in an interview with German news outlet Der Spiegel, the family said they had received information from her bank that the tattoo artist's credit card had been used in Gaza. Is credit card fraud considered a legitimate form of colonial struggle?
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Oct 8, 2023 20:41
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emSparkly posted:What actual vested interest does the western world have in keeping Israel around other than US Republicans believing it's necessary to start Armageddon? I loving hate that my government is never gonna do the right thing for Palestine ever and that I'm always gonna be a slave for the empire on the wrong side. To see this conflict explode and then see my president wholly condemn a people under genocide is soul crushing. Optics and military staging. They get to point to a wealthy and powerful democracy (flawed as it is). There is also a large number of expats, especially American, who have moved to Israel and their connections to mother countries in the West can move the needle in some political decisions. And of course it's helpful to have a proxy in the region to make the military moves you are otherwise unable to. Want to bomb Lebanon? Have Israel do it. Want to assist a side in the Syrian civil war? Have Israel do it.
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Oct 8, 2023 20:52
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The visceral nature of what Hamas freedom fighters did to random civilians is only going to serve Israeli interests. You have to imagine the Israeli government knows that and will leverage that, and international powers will likely turn a blind eye to what comes. A high-rise eating a JDAM pales in comparison to mortally terrified, stripped naked civilians being herded into trucks to some god awful fate at the hands of anti-colonial forces.
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Oct 8, 2023 20:58
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ummel posted:https://www.businessinsider.com/credit-card-shani-louk-naked-paraded-hamas-israel-palestine-gaza-2023-10 What the gently caress
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Oct 8, 2023 20:58
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It's kind of exhausting to think about how quickly every country in the world releases statements when Hamas attacks while Israel commits war crimes on an ongoing basis through their settlements and retaliation strategies to no response. I think it is pretty easy to see why Hamas did what they did, not just from the "pressure cooker" perspective or management of popular sentiment inside Gaza, but also because the only hope for any change is goading Israel into an escalation severe enough to invite international condemnation. People were talking about a slaughter of peaceful Palestinian protesters that I hadn't even heard about as an American (and which, as far as I can tell, didn't even get any play in this thread). The last story from I/P that got any international play I can recall was when a journalist got shot by the IDF, which Google is telling me was May of last year. Palestinians have no power to solve their own problems (or literal power, for that matter), Israel has only gone further right in the last several years even in the absence of any major violence, and the surrounding countries they could have relied on to at least make objections about the human rights abuses have been enabling them - it's no surprise that some segment of them would resort to escalation and it seems pretty pointless to scold about it when this situation is basically a by-word for "intractable problem" and 0 viable alternatives are proposed. Edit: none of this is to imply that the specific actions are defensible in any way, moreso that a tide of death rolling out from Gaza after literal decades of the same in the reverse direction is kind of just a law of physics, and the timing of people having a rave or the specifics of who gets caught in it has no logic to it and no person directing it It's the end of the Monopoly game where you can either keep rolling the dice knowing you are statistically guaranteed to be completely zeroed out, or just flip the table over and at least you won't have to watch it happen BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 21:12
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B B posted:CNN is reporting that 260 people were killed at that music festival. That's unbelievable. I saw videos of people running for their cars and you could hear gunshots in the distance, but I didn't realize it was a full on massacre.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:16
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99pct of germs posted:The visceral nature of what Hamas freedom fighters did to random civilians is only going to serve Israeli interests. You have to imagine the Israeli government knows that and will leverage that, and international powers will likely turn a blind eye to what comes. What had public opinion ever done for Palestine? The entire world has openly approved Israel's campaign of (slow) extermination in the occupied territories. Hamas has almost certainly made the calculus that the only chance they have is to become a force that Israel must genuinely reckon with, and in full honesty they've made strides towards that goal with this attack. The slaughter of settlers is horrific, but entirely predictable. Hamas has shown that this is going to be the cost of the status quo to Israel, and I doubt that Israel's voting public will accept it, so some form of change must come.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:17
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"goading Israel into an escalation severe enough to invite international condemnation" has never worked, and I think it obviously deters international condemnation if you frame the attack with wanton sexual violence and mass shootings of civilians. I think the violence here is really as simple as: every army has men who just want to do hideous violence against the weak, you need an extremely disciplined and organized army to keep them from doing it in broad daylight, Hamas doesn't have those tools or any incentive to develop them.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:18
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Yeah, as a not terribly well-informed outsider, it seems like the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have been offered no carrots and all sticks. What incentive do they have to work towards a peaceful resolution? They can sit down peacefully and get run over by tanks and bulldozers or stand up and fight, and get shot. I dunno, it looks to me like the increasingly right-wing Israeli governments have been goading them into fighting back to have an excuse to eradicate them wholesale.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:19
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Gee whiz maybe shooting up a music festival and parading the corpses of foreign nationals aren’t going to win, as they say, the hearts and minds of the international community.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:25
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BougieBitch posted:It's the end of the Monopoly game where you can either keep rolling the dice knowing you are statistically guaranteed to be completely zeroed out, or just flip the table over and at least you won't have to watch it happen It seems similar to the Warsaw uprising. Very little chance of success but preferable to those under subjugation than to stand by and be slowly wiped out.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:27
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A big flaming stink posted:What had public opinion ever done for Palestine? The entire world has openly approved Israel's campaign of (slow) extermination in the occupied territories. Hamas has almost certainly made the calculus that the only chance they have is to become a force that Israel must genuinely reckon with, and in full honesty they've made strides towards that goal with this attack. Exactly. The "hearts and minds of the international community" are already squarely taken with the bully in this fight - Israel - while the Palestinians are quickly labeled "terrorists" and "militants" for fighting back.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:30
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The specific tactics aren't really the question, the bigger issue is that there is no "real" Palestinian government or representation and yet the actions of Hamas will be used as justification for leveling Gaza. It's true that the actions taken by the people leading the attacks are abhorrent, but they aren't an "army", they aren't going to be able to hold any new territory, the people that make up their active base will be eradicated and then replaced over the course of a decade just like over the last decade. Even though the strategy has low odds of success and the execution was atrocious both for moral reasons and because of how self-defeating it was, it still makes sense *why* it happened I would also say that, in a similar way to the war in Afghanistan leading to entrenchment of an anti-West government after years of suppression through force, the long-game for Hamas can just be to make the next generation grow up with constant visible reminders of who to hate. The one-upsmanship in retaliation makes the case for never compromising with Israel, so the tactics of Israel taking out apartment buildings is just going to self-reinforce BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 21:35
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A big flaming stink posted:The slaughter of settlers is horrific, but entirely predictable. Hamas has shown that this is going to be the cost of the status quo to Israel, and I doubt that Israel's voting public will accept it, so some form of change must come. I think you are right that they won't accept the status quo. I doubt that the new status quo will be an improvement for Palestinians.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:36
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Recoome posted:Gee whiz maybe shooting up a music festival and parading the corpses of foreign nationals aren’t going to win, as they say, the hearts and minds of the international community. Israel bombed and murdered 44 civilians in the 2021 strikes on Wehda Street. There was broad condemnation and... nothing actually happened that impacted the IDF's ability to continue massacring Palestinians. There is nothing the Palestinians can do or suffer that will ever garner meaningful sympathy from the people with actual power here. e: Like I brought it up earlier, but the IDF murdered nine kids on a beach playing football with a missile, then murdered another four with a naval vessel, and the end result was the IDF saying oops uh oh, not charging anyone, and continuing to receive missiles and munitions. TGLT fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 21:39
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Marenghi posted:It seems similar to the Warsaw uprising. Very little chance of success but preferable to those under subjugation than to stand by and be slowly wiped out.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:40
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The whataboutism ITT justifying shooting up a music festival is pretty astounding, there’s some great posts further up thread but not sure if I can agree with attacking civilians just because the IDF has been doing the same previously. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 21:43
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Nothing the Palestinians do will gain them sympathy from people who see them as subhuman. This has been demonstrated to them by the world for decades. After they supposed to die slowly like good little martyrs? Oops, tried that, snipers were gloating about how many they maimed.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:44
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Recoome posted:Gee whiz maybe shooting up a music festival and parading the corpses of foreign nationals aren’t going to win, as they say, the hearts and minds of the international community. Even the Arab world has difficulty framing this war. The nonstop coverage on Al Jazeera, which is usually very favorable to the Palestinian cause, has hardly been slanted on the side of Hamas. Current Israeli casualties are over 700. Currently the UN is holding a closed door meeting in NY on this matter. Some of the posters and viewpoints here celebrating Israeli civilian deaths or advocating for this kind of warfare is disgusting. Murdering youth at a music festival is not "resistance" or "freedom fighters"—it is terrorism. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 21:44
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If only Hamas could have had the opportunity to buy American missiles and fighter jets so that they could engage in the internationally accepted method of killing civilians and children (as Israel has been doing for decades). Perhaps if they'd had access to satellite and survellience drones and all the tools of the Israeli police state, they would have been able to easily sort through military and civilian targets to ensure that they only targeted civilian targets like Israel does. Edit: Warcrimes are warcimes on either side, but the difference here is that Israel has the tools to put their genocide in cleaner methods. Blowing up residential buildings and hospitals full of innocent people sure is a lot easier behind a desk, but they'll happily commit all of these war crimes and more in person on the Palestinian people if they think they can get away with it without consquence. The only thing protecting the Palestinian people, as it has been for decades, is that the IDF does not have enough boots on the ground to thoroughly complete their genocide. No amount of tech in the world can compensate for that. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Zeron fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 21:46
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Living in the conditions people endure in Gaza is just completely demoralizing for a lot of people, and not just in the sense of making you depressed. In circumstances of daily struggle for survival, frequent trauma of witnessing horrible things, and constsnt disempowering oppression, lots of people become callous or cruel or nihilistic. Not all, not even a majority, but enough to near-inevitably precipitate atrocities Just look at some of the poo poo people did in, say, WW2 Eastern Europe, outside of even the organized state genocides. And that was just a few years of occupation, not decades. The Hamas attack was imo mainly lashing out, there's little strategic gain behind it because they have absolutely no options that could provide any strategic gain. It's the result of cultivating a large population of young men with no future whom nobody can really offer anything except revenge. It's monstrous but this is a monster that Israel worked hard to create.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:46
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Recoome posted:The whataboutism ITT justifying shooting up a music festival is pretty astounding, there’s some great posts further up thread but not sure if I can agree with attacking civilians just because the IDF has been doing the same previously. It's not about justifying it, it's pushing back on the idea that somehow this is going to be the thing that keeps the international community from finally swooping in to end the apartheid in Israel. The US has made it clear it does not matter how pure or innocent or victimized the Palestinians are, nothing warrants any change in their support of Israel. Ending this conflict and preventing horrible atrocities like this first requires the Israelis, who are the only ones with the capacity to vaporize city blocks, to start treating the Palestinians like human beings. If the whole world treats the continuous murder of your fathers and mothers, sisters and brothers, and daughters and sons as meaningless - and has done so for decades - the gently caress do you think people are going to end up doing?
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Oct 8, 2023 21:50
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Recoome posted:The whataboutism ITT justifying shooting up a music festival is pretty astounding, there’s some great posts further up thread but not sure if I can agree with attacking civilians just because the IDF has been doing the same previously. No one is saying it is justified, just that framing this as an isolated incident rather than the newest in a decades-long tit-for-tat where the Israeli retaliation is always 10x the magnitude is ahistorical and contributes nothing. It's not even whataboutism, we can keep talking about the current events if there is any actual new news, but we are all just waiting for reporting to catch up to stuff on the ground Like, this is the I/P thread, what we are talking about are other incidents that are part of that context but are so COMMONPLACE that no one even bothers to post them at the time they happen. The conversation only even takes place when something occurs that is so catastrophic that it makes it into international reporting. That's part of the problem, is the death toll for Palestinians increases every day and is treated as though it is natural or inevitable even when it literally happens from an IDF bomb or gun
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Oct 8, 2023 21:54
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Guildencrantz posted:Living in the conditions people endure in Gaza is just completely demoralizing for a lot of people, and not just in the sense of making you depressed. In circumstances of daily struggle for survival, frequent trauma of witnessing horrible things, and constsnt disempowering oppression, lots of people become callous or cruel or nihilistic. Not all, not even a majority, but enough to near-inevitably precipitate atrocities Just look at some of the poo poo people did in, say, WW2 Eastern Europe, outside of even the organized state genocides. And that was just a few years of occupation, not decades. This is not just resistance fighters rising up against neocolonialists—this is a full-fledged coordinated terrorist attack. Iran is just as involved as Hamas in this war. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/iran-hamas-israel-gaza-attack/675582/ The geopolitical aspects are important here—it's one thing to be an impoverished state in dire conditions. It's another to then suddenly be armed and plan a full scale military attack across borders on innocent civilians.
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Oct 8, 2023 21:57
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Adenoid Dan posted:Nothing the Palestinians do will gain them sympathy from people who see them as subhuman. This has been demonstrated to them by the world for decades. I think you shouldn't strip a dead woman naked and defile her corpse, whether you'll earn sympathy for it or not. I don't think the choice is between defiling that dead woman's corpse and "die slowly like good little martyrs" You sound exactly like right-wing Israelis who say "the nations will hate us regardless, so why *shouldn't* we just kill them all? What, should we just give up and die gently for the PR?"
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Oct 8, 2023 21:57
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think you shouldn't strip a dead woman naked and defile her corpse, whether you'll earn sympathy for it or not. The point is that people in slow grinding no win situations that inevitably end in extermination probably aren't gonna make Rational Decisions (tm) my dude. Like you get that right? Being peaceful doesn't matter, being violent doesn't matter, the result is the same no matter what. Last time Israel had a prime minister willing to pursue peace he was assassinated for precisely that reason. Unless Israel as a state stops being founded on the premise of being an apartheid ethnostate this is the only possible outcome, forever. And they're not going to, so, hey! Cool system of eternally looping incentive structures.
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Oct 8, 2023 22:03
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Maybe I’m just not seeing it but normally you’d get a stack of pro-Palestine stuff in the socialist circles in Australia but it’s complete radio silence right now - I’ve never seen that before and I’m not sure whether it’s because we’ve got our internal poo poo right now or because of the attacks on civilians.
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Oct 8, 2023 22:03
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think you shouldn't strip a dead woman naked and defile her corpse, whether you'll earn sympathy for it or not. Did I say they should? quote:I don't think the choice is between defiling that dead woman's corpse and "die slowly like good little martyrs" None of the options Israel has provided is "not genocide", so apartheid apologists should stop pretending there are peaceful and productive options to choose from. It's a delaying tactic, nothing more. quote:You sound exactly like right-wing Israelis who say "the nations will hate us regardless, so why *shouldn't* we just kill them all? What, should we just give up and die gently for the PR?" The difference is they actually do have options and power, so enough of this false equivalence.
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Oct 8, 2023 22:05
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The entire situation feels like a "well what the gently caress did you think was gonna happen?" thing. Israel had every chance to stop this poo poo and did nothing. If you keep a starving rabid bear in a cage and shock it it's entire life, don't be surprised when it tries to loving maul you. My sympathies are with the Palestinian people who have never known a day of peace or decency in their lives and now are now going to get loving ground up and thrown into the Dead Sea because of the actions of a few barbaric crazies who were radicalized by Israeli oppression. gently caress this Earth.
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Oct 8, 2023 22:09
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I think there is also a unconscious bias in this thread that presume Hamas's attack is ultimately a fruitless endeavor. Unless I have misinterpreted things, their assault is still actively ongoing, and there is numerous evidence of not just their territorial gains, but the fact they are making the settlers outright terrified https://twitter.com/PalHighlight/status/1710950481843961890 If nothing else, Hamas sending the message to settlers that the state of Israel is not able to protect them would be a incredible turn of affairs, and one that would have an immediate beneficial improvement on the occupied territories
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Oct 8, 2023 22:10
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Recoome posted:Maybe I’m just not seeing it but normally you’d get a stack of pro-Palestine stuff in the socialist circles in Australia but it’s complete radio silence right now - I’ve never seen that before and I’m not sure whether it’s because we’ve got our internal poo poo right now or because of the attacks on civilians. There's not really anything to talk about yet if you are pro-Palestinian, they probably aren't pro-Hamas and there's basically no benefit to messaging about the situation thus far if your goal is liberation. By the end of the week, when Israeli retaliation has tripled or quadrupled the number of dead civilians, then you can expect there to be a bit of a push in that direction as there becomes more sympathetic angles and photos/videos. Honestly, this is the first time in a long time where Hamas's actions weren't just retaliation for a greater atrocity immediately prior, so it makes sense that the usual pattern isn't being followed on messaging. Edit: I do also want to just be clear that a lot of the outrage feels like a mismatch between "is" and "ought" as is often the case in D&D, along with conflation between Israel/Israelis and the Israeli government and Palestinians and Hamas. People are pre-emptively concerned about what the Israeli government will do in retaliation not because the harm done to Israeli civilians and tourists is irrelevant, but because it has already happened and is irreversible while the next stage isn't written in stone yet. There's a very real chance that ten thousand more civilians will die if this ends up looking like every other time Israel's government has felt they had sufficient international sympathy to pull out their full array of weapons, and so when people escalate rhetoric about the severity of the atrocities committed by Hamas (and they are completely unconscionable, let's be clear) in a way that conflates individual actors with the region they are from, it's another drop of water straining against an already weakened dam holding back the flood of bullets and missiles that will be hitting Gaza for the next weeks or months. If there was any hope that the targets would be restricted to the people responsible for the atrocities then it would be much easier to take this time to properly mourn what is truly an enormous tragedy, but history has shown that a larger one will happen in short order without fail, and I would just as soon save the mourning for when no more harm can be reduced BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 22:12
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There is/was a heavy sounding gunfight going on between IDF and Palestinian forces at the Qalandiya checkpoint to the North of Jerusalem.
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Oct 8, 2023 22:16
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WaPo has a write up of the festival massacre with some videos attached (from before/during the attack). Gift article/no paywall. https://wapo.st/3PPI4XK
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Oct 8, 2023 22:18
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Recoome posted:Maybe I’m just not seeing it but normally you’d get a stack of pro-Palestine stuff in the socialist circles in Australia but it’s complete radio silence right now - I’ve never seen that before and I’m not sure whether it’s because we’ve got our internal poo poo right now or because of the attacks on civilians. More likely than not, belatedly, it is probably down to the fog of war and not really knowing what is going on on the ground despite or possibly because of all the coverage.
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Oct 8, 2023 22:19
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