|
T.C. posted:This was the argument that people made about South Africa near the end of apartheid. Effectively that they had to maintain power over Black South Africans because they had oppressed them so hard that they'd obviously retaliate. So really the oppression is preemptive self defense Well, I certainly welcome correction here. I'm certainly not preaching Israel should continue oppressing Palestine in "self defense", more despairing the situation feels like you'd need both sides to want peace for it to ever happen and it feels like the chances of that were never good and have kept getting worse for as long as I've been old enough to try to follow things. Since you bring up South Africa, anything from how that went that provides hope here? Did it just finally take a leap of faith to do? I would sure like there to be an actual end to the slaughter beyond one side just killing off the other completely, which is what I'm getting more and more scared is going to happen because anybody who wants otherwise just doesn't seem to be listened to anymore if they ever were. T.C. posted:Like, I legitimately have no idea what Palestine is supposed to do with their situation. That's the rub, isn't it? I can't reasonably look at their situation and not say I see the logic behind deciding the only chance to survive is to kill Israel. Hell, my major objections to that boil down to "it's not going to ever work to solve your problem, especially the way you keep doing it" really when all's said and done, sadly enough. But if pressed, I certainly don't have any other choice to offer them. Hell, even if I could wave a magic wand and create a better alternative, I couldn't fault not being trusted thanks to how many other well-meaning idiots have weighed in on this issue over the decades. Just wish I wasn't out of hope for anything better, but it seems like I can't even hope for the US to stop being on the wrong side of things  .
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 00:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 01:51 |
|
|
MadDogMike posted:Well, I certainly welcome correction here. I'm certainly not preaching Israel should continue oppressing Palestine in "self defense", more despairing the situation feels like you'd need both sides to want peace for it to ever happen and it feels like the chances of that were never good and have kept getting worse for as long as I've been old enough to try to follow things. Since you bring up South Africa, anything from how that went that provides hope here? Did it just finally take a leap of faith to do? I would sure like there to be an actual end to the slaughter beyond one side just killing off the other completely, which is what I'm getting more and more scared is going to happen because anybody who wants otherwise just doesn't seem to be listened to anymore if they ever were. South African apartheid was ended in large part due to an international effort to boycott, divest from, and sanction SA. Which is exactly what should be done with Israel. The US could make a huge difference by cutting off their support. There's no "leap of faith" required, because the idea that both sides just want to kill each other is completely unfounded. It's an excuse made up by the oppressor to justify the oppression.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 01:08
|
|
|
im honestly just asking to distract myself from all this for a bit, but it is now fall and summer is gone, make the new thread
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 01:12
|
|
|
Israel is also, like South Africa, a client state in a region seen as hostile to (or maybe not valuable for, in the case of South Africa) US interests. One of our key uses for Israel is as a laboratory for police weapons and strategy, specifically in a context of mass unrest + surveillance. I’m pretty sure they were the first ones to use that large-scale microwave pain beam for crowd control. There are always a lot of US police touring Israel and hearing the IDF talk about how to corral and suppress.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 01:18
|
|
|
World Famous W posted:im honestly just asking to distract myself from all this for a bit, but it is now fall and summer is gone, make the new thread Counterpoint: It is still 90 degrees outside so it is summer
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 01:21
|
|
|
Trazz posted:Counterpoint: It is still 90 degrees outside so it is summer Counter-counterpoint: It's an amazingly comfortable 48° in my part of Pennsylvania. Also, if we're using temperature feels as the basis, climate change will basically ensure we only ever have a Summer thread.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 01:35
|
|
|
MadDogMike posted:Well, I certainly welcome correction here. I'm certainly not preaching Israel should continue oppressing Palestine in "self defense", more despairing the situation feels like you'd need both sides to want peace for it to ever happen and it feels like the chances of that were never good and have kept getting worse for as long as I've been old enough to try to follow things. Since you bring up South Africa, anything from how that went that provides hope here? Did it just finally take a leap of faith to do? I would sure like there to be an actual end to the slaughter beyond one side just killing off the other completely, which is what I'm getting more and more scared is going to happen because anybody who wants otherwise just doesn't seem to be listened to anymore if they ever were. In a theoretical two-state solution, you don't need both sides to want peace in order to have peace, because one side has top-of-the-line American tanks and planes, while the other side has basically no armored vehicles or aircraft at all. If Israel unilaterally pulled out of the Palestinian territories tomorrow, the Palestinian territories would pose basically no real military threat to Israeli territory. Israel already has fortified defensive barriers along the entirety of their borders with the Palestinian territories for the purposes of preventing armed incursions (although the West Bank one is mostly built a few miles across the border, because Israel takes every opportunity it can to lay claim to parts of the West Bank). A one-state solution is a little different, but it's not really worth discussing as long as Israel holds this much malevolence toward the Palestinians. That's one of my primary objections to the two-state solution, in fact: the leading Israeli parties have made clear that even if they might be willing to cede nominal independence to Palestinians, they don't really envision the resulting state as anything more than a bantustan.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 01:47
|
|
|
MadDogMike posted:Well, I certainly welcome correction here. I'm certainly not preaching Israel should continue oppressing Palestine in "self defense", more despairing the situation feels like you'd need both sides to want peace for it to ever happen and it feels like the chances of that were never good and have kept getting worse for as long as I've been old enough to try to follow things. Since you bring up South Africa, anything from how that went that provides hope here? Did it just finally take a leap of faith to do? I would sure like there to be an actual end to the slaughter beyond one side just killing off the other completely, which is what I'm getting more and more scared is going to happen because anybody who wants otherwise just doesn't seem to be listened to anymore if they ever were. Fister Roboto posted:South African apartheid was ended in large part due to an international effort to boycott, divest from, and sanction SA. Which is exactly what should be done with Israel. The US could make a huge difference by cutting off their support. There's no "leap of faith" required, because the idea that both sides just want to kill each other is completely unfounded. It's an excuse made up by the oppressor to justify the oppression. Yeah, the modern Boycott Divestment and Sanctions movement with regards to Israel is based off of the success in pressuring the NP to end apartheid. There's some complications-- the apartheid gov. was fighting several brush wars at once, as well as massive police actions in SA/the townships so economic sanctions were particularly crippling. Apartheid was also generally viewed negatively across the political spectrum in the US and Europe, but the apartheid government sold it as a necessary evil to prevent communism from sweeping through all of Africa. The collapse of the USSR ended that charade, though. The fear isn't totally unfounded, the end of apartheid was a rare gem. Most times after an oppressive nation or system is overthrown there's at least a certain amount of reprisals (ex. French Algerians loyalists after Algerian independence, the US towards British loyalists after its war of independence). It doesn't justify maintaining an apartheid state, of course, just noting it's worth being realistic about the possibilities when a system like that is dismantled.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 02:18
|
|
|
Dopilsya posted:The fear isn't totally unfounded, the end of apartheid was a rare gem. Most times after an oppressive nation or system is overthrown there's at least a certain amount of reprisals (ex. French Algerians loyalists after Algerian independence, the US towards British loyalists after its war of independence). It doesn't justify maintaining an apartheid state, of course, just noting it's worth being realistic about the possibilities when a system like that is dismantled. Perhaps, but if anything that's a reason to end the apartheid sooner rather than later, lest the resentment grow further.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 05:48
|
|
|
I do not believe any normal or sane human can do the job Kevin McCarthy was expected to do: govern as a Republican with a large subset of Republican members and their constituents have no interest whatsoever in governing but would prefer to set the building on fire out of pure spite. There simply is no Republican who can unify the caucus because the party, from the bottom up, has become to fascist to get anything done.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 10:11
|
|
|
Undoubtedly the US will be sending military aid to Israel. Would such aid need to be approved by Congress or is there enough appropriated specifically for Israel that it wouldn’t be a concern? If it needs to go by Congress, hopefully at least Biden will be able to tie Ukraine aid to it. Also curious if this will force republicans into coalescing behind a Speaker sooner rather than later.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:51
|
|
|
dpkg chopra posted:Undoubtedly the US will be sending military aid to Israel. Would such aid need to be approved by Congress or is there enough appropriated specifically for Israel that it wouldn’t be a concern? I doubt IDF acutely needs millions of bombs. Besides their own stock USA has been storaging weapons and munitions in Israel as a quick reserve. Some of these were sent to Ukraine earlier this year, and what could happen though is that they will be withheld from such transfers from now on.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 16:42
|
|
|
dpkg chopra posted:Undoubtedly the US will be sending military aid to Israel. Would such aid need to be approved by Congress or is there enough appropriated specifically for Israel that it wouldn’t be a concern?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 16:48
|
|
|
World Famous W posted:hopefully we don't continue to arm the apartheid state, even if it gets funding for whatever the gently caress else [narrator] They continued to arm the apartheid state.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 17:05
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:I doubt IDF acutely needs millions of bombs. Besides their own stock USA has been storaging weapons and munitions in Israel as a quick reserve. Some of these were sent to Ukraine earlier this year, and what could happen though is that they will be withheld from such transfers from now on. Haven’t we been selling them millions of bombs this whole time?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 18:10
|
|
|
We give billions to Israel each year in military assistance already
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 18:39
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:We give billions to Israel each year in military assistance already Weirdly enough this never gets mentioned whenever Republicans complain about foreign aid spending (which is already a tiny part of the national budget to begin with)
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 19:06
|
|
|
Angry_Ed posted:Weirdly enough this never gets mentioned whenever Republicans complain about foreign aid spending (which is already a tiny part of the national budget to begin with) all us military spending outside the small amount needed for personal protection is bad edit: making it a little clearer World Famous W fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Oct 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 19:33
|
|
|
Angry_Ed posted:Weirdly enough this never gets mentioned whenever Republicans complain about foreign aid spending (which is already a tiny part of the national budget to begin with) I mean Republicans complain about Ukraine aid and not Israel aid because they have a consistent pro bombing apartment buildings position whether the apartment buildings are in Kharkiv, Gaza, or (if they get elected next year) Culiacán. Their foreign policy guys want to pivot to Taiwan because it's an excuse to stop aid to Ukraine and nobody is bombing apartment buildings there, but if China actually invaded they would be pro that too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 19:44
|
|
|
Giving money to Israel is fine in a lot of their minds because it helps hasten the apocalypse. You gotta remember, it's not just a cynical act, there really are a lot of people, even in positions of power, who think that Jesus is showing up any day now to slaughter the billions of people that they hate, but he won't show up if preconditions XYZ aren't met, many of which are geopolitical in nature.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 21:21
|
|
|
single-mode fiber posted:Giving money to Israel is fine in a lot of their minds because it helps hasten the apocalypse. You gotta remember, it's not just a cynical act, there really are a lot of people, even in positions of power, who think that Jesus is showing up any day now to slaughter the billions of people that they hate, but he won't show up if preconditions XYZ aren't met, many of which are geopolitical in nature. c. f. the Bush/Chirac story about Gog and Magog
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 21:33
|
|
|
Now is a really good time to re-read The Yiddish Policemen's Union by Michael Chabon
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 21:34
|
|
|
good god https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1711079006831878367 c'mon man, don't defend billionaires existing. why even put out this message?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 21:50
|
|
|
World Famous W posted:good god You are opposed to raising taxes on billionaires? I would never have thought that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:02
|
|
|
Look at that pitiful 25% rate. Even Nixon had higher
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:03
|
|
|
World Famous W posted:good god This is the kind of thing I get annoyed with when it comes to leftist messaging. Biden is not a leftist, he is ostensibly pro-labour within a capitalist framework but ultimately like most liberals doesn't think the problem with "capitalism" is its existence; billionares are "fine" as long as they don't run away with power; that is inherent and core to most liberals. If you strike it rich as long as you pay taxes you've "earned" some proportion of your wealth, it's yours. So its really kind of silly to complain and criticize Biden on this because its a complete non-sequitor, it's irrelevant to the actual material conversation. You and I know that billionares are inherently bad, but he, and most people who voted for him, and participate in US politics definitively do not believe this and by engaging in this line of criticism you just isolate your position into irrelevancy. The fact he supports increasing taxation on the rich is good in the context of US politics where this is a viable policy position that people can vote for and get implemented, you're never in your lifetime are going to get "Eliminate the Billionare Class" as a platform plank from the major parties. FDR New Deal 2.0 Democrats is basically the most you're going to get from electoral politics. I just can't fathom thinking this is something that matters to criticize Biden for, it's like criticizing them for not being socialists when that's the entire anthropothic point.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:07
|
|
|
World Famous W posted:good god Gotta defend the accusation he's a pinko commie before it starts. Sure, most of the people who would say that would do it even if Biden murdered Karl Marx himself, but due to the facists being popular enough Biden needs the five additional votes that might get him in North Carolina.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:09
|
|
|
Income tax isn’t very relevant to billionaires anyway, if you want to take their money you have to go after investment income or net worth directly By a weird coincidence, SCOTUS is probably going to decide on whether a wealth tax is constitutional this term
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:10
|
|
|
Twincityhacker posted:Gotta defend the accusation he's a pinko commie before it starts. This isn't about votes in North Carolina, but even in California and anyone Dems vote. Especially California come to think of it. You're average blue collar worker isn't on board with guillotines.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:11
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:This isn't about votes in North Carolina, but even in California and anyone Dems vote. Especially California come to think of it. You're average blue collar worker isn't on board with guillotines. I mean, we’re not against guillotines, either.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:20
|
|
|
The 25% minimum tax for billionaires in question isn't new and it's not an income tax. It's a wealth tax. I really wish y'all would at least google something before reacting to it, even if you can't remember back six months. https://www.vox.com/money/23634085/biden-2024-budget-billionaire-tax-capital-gains
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:24
|
|
|
MrYenko posted:I mean, we’re not against guillotines, either. Going to be frank here and point out that average SA users are probably significantly more class conscious than the average working class American. Whenever I see news of labour disputes its always "We just want a little help thats all" and never "gently caress the bosses". I think we're a far distance away back from when unions were willing to fight dirty and cut telegraph lines and so on.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:26
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Look at that pitiful 25% rate. Even Nixon had higher He's talking about a minimum tax, which is different from a marginal tax rate, in that the billionaire (theoretically) wouldn't be able to reduce it any further via things like deductions, loopholes, or other accounting games. It's a proposal to counteract the fact that although billionaires nominally face high tax rates, the amounts they actually end up paying are much lower. Actually practically implementing something like that wouldn't be easy, but there's not much point in overanalyzing a single tweet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:39
|
|
|
predicto posted:You are opposed to raising taxes on billionaires? I would never have thought that. yeah, no poo poo i ain't convincing someone with that. wasnt attempting to either (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:41
|
|
|
single-mode fiber posted:Giving money to Israel is fine in a lot of their minds because it helps hasten the apocalypse. You gotta remember, it's not just a cynical act, there really are a lot of people, even in positions of power, who think that Jesus is showing up any day now to slaughter the billions of people that they hate, but he won't show up if preconditions XYZ aren't met, many of which are geopolitical in nature. That and Republicans think the Jewish population is ready to switch to the Republican party ANY day now, please ignore the antisemitism and our Christian dominionist policies.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:47
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:He's talking about a minimum tax, which is different from a marginal tax rate, in that the billionaire (theoretically) wouldn't be able to reduce it any further via things like deductions, loopholes, or other accounting games. It's a proposal to counteract the fact that although billionaires nominally face high tax rates, the amounts they actually end up paying are much lower. My bad, sorry!
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:49
|
|
|
once again surprised how biden doesn't suck as bad as he initially appeared to and was expected to
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 22:58
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Look at that pitiful 25% rate. Even Nixon had higher When the top marginal tax rate was 70% the most effective way to make your life nicer because of your money was good social policy, the more the rich get to keep the more they expect it to be exclusive to what their pocketbook can buy. If the mode of transport most funded by Richie Rich's income is the train, hes going to make sure their first class seats are plush for him. Once its on a shoe-string and he gets to keep enough for the private jet the sofa arriving an hour earlier is more important then the prole wagon. Minimum tax posted:25% Barrel Cactaur fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Oct 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 23:00
|
|
|
Barrel Cactaur posted:When the top marginal tax rate was 70% the most effective way to make your life nicer because of your money was good social policy, the more the rich get to keep the more they expect it to be exclusive to what their pocketbook can buy. If the mode of transport most funded by Richie Rich's income is the train, hes going to make sure their first class seats are plush for him. Once its on a shoe-string and he gets to keep enough for the private jet the sofa arriving an hour earlier is more important then the prole wagon. If they lost money wouldn't they deduct those losses from their income?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 23:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 01:51 |
|
|
Kith posted:once again surprised how biden doesn't suck as bad as he initially appeared to and was expected to I feel like people making Biden out as a boogeyman during the primaries has ironically helped his image (at least in places like this), because most of the time he's exceeding those expectations (even if exceeding said expectations isn't actually helpful enough), and when he legit does something lovely it doesn't feel like a betrayal because it doesn't run counter to the biden people have in their heads
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 00:02
|
|
