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The Kingfish posted:And this is the propaganda value of the recent attacks. If you travel to occupied territory, you might be killed and your body paraded around as a trophy. That area has been a part of Israel pre-1967. Israeli's have lived with terrorism throughout the country for as long as it has existed, and they still ride the bus and go to pizza parlors, and will continue to go to awful music festivals.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:17
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Tuna-Fish posted:
I don't know about it being intentionally chosen, but otherwise, yeah. This wasn't a mob of angry teenagers, they were a paramilitary unit that successfully launched an airborne assault. They clearly had communication, at least some training, and some kind of chain of command. The "burst out of a cage, filled with rage!" talk doesn't really make sense in that context. They're as culpable as any other unit of soldiers would be. Would a group of Ukranian airborne infantry landing at rave in Rostov-on-don and emptying magazines into the festival-goers be an example of "unleashed rage"? No, it would be a war crime. Anyway, I wonder if these attacks save or drat Bibi. Nothing right-wing strongmen love more than an external foe, but it's also a massive failure that happened on his watch. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 23:21
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Fill Baptismal posted:Would a group of Ukranian airborne infantry landing at rave in Rostov-on-don and emptying magazines into the festival-goers be an example of "unleashed rage"? No, it would be a war crime. And yet I am 100% sure international reaction would be entirely different.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:28
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If the past 20 years have taught me anything, it's that Bibi will still be PM even after death
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Oct 8, 2023 23:28
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Captain Oblivious posted:Sounds like the kind of thing that the position with all the power could have prevented for the better part of a century, but instead chose to make literally inevitable. If Palestinians in Gaza have reached a point where it is inevitable that they will machinegun a music festival if given the option then it's hard to see how integration into a one state solution could ever work. I don't think it was inevitable.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:28
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Fill Baptismal posted:I don't know about it being intentionally chosen, but otherwise, yeah. This wasn't a mob of angry teenagers, they were a paramilitary unit that successfully launched an airborne assault. They clearly had communication, at least some training, and some kind of chain of command. The "burst out of a cage, filled with rage!" talk doesn't really make sense in that context. They're as culpable as any other unit of soldiers would be. Would a group of Ukranian airborne infantry landing at rave in Rostov-on-don and emptying magazines into the festival-goers be an example of "unleashed rage"? No, it would be a war crime. It should hurt him, though I have learned to never underestimate the horribleness of Israeli politics and their lunatic ruling coalition. That said, Bibi makes the strongman's case for power: I will keep you safe. He has failed.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:30
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Fill Baptismal posted:I don't know about it being intentionally chosen, but otherwise, yeah. This wasn't a mob of angry teenagers, they were a paramilitary unit that successfully launched an airborne assault. They clearly had communication, at least some training, and some kind of chain of command. The "burst out of a cage, filled with rage!" talk doesn't really make sense in that context. They're as culpable as any other unit of soldiers would be. Would a group of Ukranian airborne infantry landing at rave in Rostov-on-don and emptying magazines into the festival-goers be an example of "unleashed rage"? No, it would be a war crime. IMO these are really bad for Bibi. A small war would be good for him. But in this case, he sold himself as the strongman who's going to protect the nation and yet more Israelis died in one day under his watch, than have died from terrorist attacks in several previous decades combined. And it's assignable to him -- he made the decision to prioritize the judicial "reforms" at the expense of national defense. He ordered the IDF to put all of its troops into the West Bank instead of facing Gaza, because he oversaw the policies that aggravated tensions in that area.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:31
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Diet Crack posted:If the past 20 years have taught me anything, it's that Bibi will still be PM even after death He may be voted out, because security (not peace) was the entirety of his platform. He has failed in this regard, drastically. The downside is we may see someone even more far right than Bibi.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:31
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Fill Baptismal posted:The overall competence of the Hamas forces makes the atrocities worse I think. They clearly had some degree of training/professionalism to be able to execute something like this. These weren't a mob of loosely organized guys handed a gun yesterday. Which means that leadership had enough control over them that they should be as culpable for what they did as the leaders of any other professional military would be. They likely could have enforced some kind of rules of engagement that might not have prevented all the bad poo poo, but would have mitigated some of it. I don't think the first several steps follow here. As far as I know, we have basically 0 evidence they have succeeded in any significant military context, outside of catching the IDF with their pants literally down at one installation. It's only been one day, they are wildly outmatched in tech, they almost certainly aren't trained with any equipment they captured. I can't say I know what Hamas is specifically hoping to achieve, but they probably have very bad odds of holding territory for long, and I'm not convinced they DO have strong strategic leadership
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Oct 8, 2023 23:33
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i fly airplanes posted:He may be voted out, because security (not peace) was the entirety of his platform. He has failed in this regard, drastically.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:34
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It won't save his position but Gaza will cease to exist either way.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:35
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Fill Baptismal posted:I don't know about it being intentionally chosen, but otherwise, yeah. This wasn't a mob of angry teenagers, they were a paramilitary unit that successfully launched an airborne assault. They clearly had communication, at least some training, and some kind of chain of command. The "burst out of a cage, filled with rage!" talk doesn't really make sense in that context. They're as culpable as any other unit of soldiers would be. Would a group of Ukranian airborne infantry landing at rave in Rostov-on-don and emptying magazines into the festival-goers be an example of "unleashed rage"? No, it would be a war crime. These were planned, well-organized terrorist attacks - they could've chosen to focus on military targets, and they in fact successfully overran and seized multiple IDF outposts and bases while beating an active duty battalion and several special forces elements with a fraction of the combat power they committed to the operation, but instead of pressing that advantage they made the conscious choice of systematically committing atrocities. This poo poo wasn't some "inevitable" consequence of the conditions of the occupation. Hamas had a choice that could've led them to control of a brigade's worth of captured equipment and dozens to hundreds of high value Israeli military hostages which they could leverage while preserving their international credibility. Hell, they could've even seized towns from Israeli police and then just not massacred the civilian populations, demonstrating their only intent is ending the occupation, but no, instead they decided to take on the role of one of the greatest criminals in recent history. Right next to the IDF.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:36
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Owling Howl posted:If Palestinians in Gaza have reached a point where it is inevitable that they will machinegun a music festival if given the option then it's hard to see how integration into a one state solution could ever work. I don't think it was inevitable. Integration will never work because Israel has refused to even entertain the thought. In your opinion, what should Palestinians do?
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Oct 8, 2023 23:37
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Owling Howl posted:If Palestinians in Gaza have reached a point where it is inevitable that they will machinegun a music festival if given the option then it's hard to see how integration into a one state solution could ever work. I don't think it was inevitable.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:46
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BougieBitch posted:I don't think the first several steps follow here. As far as I know, we have basically 0 evidence they have succeeded in any significant military context, outside of catching the IDF with their pants literally down at one installation. It's only been one day, they are wildly outmatched in tech, they almost certainly aren't trained with any equipment they captured. I can't say I know what Hamas is specifically hoping to achieve, but they probably have very bad odds of holding territory for long, and I'm not convinced they DO have strong strategic leadership They took a significantly better equipped and more numerous foe totally by surprise, even though they launched their operation from a relatively small and intensely surveilled area. They successfully executed an airborne assault (against an opponent that has an actual Air Force!) , and killed and took hostage dozens of enemy soldiers, including high ranking officers. I mean, it's likely tactically brilliant but strategically stupid, given the likely response. But on a purely military level, I don't see how this is anything short of a massive coup, at least in the immediate sense. Again, makes the atrocities seem even worse honestly.
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Oct 8, 2023 23:49
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BougieBitch posted:I don't think the first several steps follow here. As far as I know, we have basically 0 evidence they have succeeded in any significant military context, outside of catching the IDF with their pants literally down at one installation. It's only been one day, they are wildly outmatched in tech, they almost certainly aren't trained with any equipment they captured. I can't say I know what Hamas is specifically hoping to achieve, but they probably have very bad odds of holding territory for long, and I'm not convinced they DO have strong strategic leadership I feel like Hamas' initial goal was probably "ransack the bordering villages, embarrass the IDF by raiding one of their bases, get some soldiers to do prison exchanges with, and then retreat & bait Israel into a ground offensive that they'd inevitably gently caress up for the third time". I don't think they expected IDF to react at the pace of a tranquilized cow, which might have upped their ambitions. My guess as to what their goal might be now, it seems like they want to inch towards West Bank to do something, perhaps try to embolden the Palestinians on lockdown there? Israel's suffering some serious casualties trying to match them within Israel itself, and I feel like retaliation-bombing Gaza (where the insurgents are not) while the wall is still passable is just encouraging Hamas to invest more of its men outside Gaza. Seems like something you'd only do if: 1. You've successfully repelled Hamas back to Gaza and they can't escape Gaza currently. 2. You're incredibly desperate and need some mixture of political red meat & minor victories. Granted, it's not like they can use their air force for much else right now, but it's probably not what I'd prioritize at the present moment. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 23:54
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Fill Baptismal posted:I don't know about it being intentionally chosen, but otherwise, yeah. This wasn't a mob of angry teenagers, they were a paramilitary unit that successfully launched an airborne assault. They clearly had communication, at least some training, and some kind of chain of command. The "burst out of a cage, filled with rage!" talk doesn't really make sense in that context. They're as culpable as any other unit of soldiers would be. Would a group of Ukranian airborne infantry landing at rave in Rostov-on-don and emptying magazines into the festival-goers be an example of "unleashed rage"? No, it would be a war crime. Ukraine is a free country with a professionally training military. There's a bit of a difference between that and a paramilitary force which was formed in an open air prison. The IRA carried out bombings in their fight for Irish independence from Britain, that would have been considered war crimes if done by a nations army. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 23:58
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How really effective are the paragliders? They only hold two people at a time, they're slow as gently caress and both the alleged video of them over the rave and the propaganda video didn't seem like they had a lot. I could see them using these to get past the barriers in small numbers for infiltration, intelligence gathering and sabotage, but claiming this is some sort of airborne assault is a bit laughable. You're deploying fire teams with those numbers, not whole companies of fighters behind enemy lines. The skies would need to be filled with them to be an effective airborne fighting force. The only reason it seems is to make a claim about sophistication.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:02
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Also he's going to obliterate Gaza in order to try and save his premiership. An assault of this scale would have resulted in this regardless of which political party/spectrum is in power in Israel.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:04
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I don't know how else this could have gone down in the long run. The genocidal far right propaganda machine in Israel has the country entirely enthralled. The actual Israeli population who actually wants to see the apartheid state ended probably only numbers in the hundreds. It's finally approaching the only logical end phase of a successfully run ethnostate. And the entire world just decides that the Palestinian race at large gets to end in death and diaspora now. Real great loving moment for human kind.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:07
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Excerpt from a book explaining the violence of the Haiti slave revolt. Important to put in context the momentery violence of a resistance movement Vs the systemic, on-going violence imposed on them by their oppressors. https://x.com/TheGreeneBJ/status/1466911189661802502?s=20
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Oct 9, 2023 00:13
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They should sticky this thread imo
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Oct 9, 2023 00:16
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a.lo posted:They should sticky this thread imo if you mean the dnd mods I don't think there's any particular danger of it falling off the front page, but eh
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Oct 9, 2023 00:19
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steinrokkan posted:Just because they didn't advertise the location doesn't mean it wasn't known to a bunch of people involved in organizing it, and a bunch of officials who had to approve it. The question is whether Hamas had been actively looking for information on public gatherings that may have been planned in the area, and somehow found out about this. This was likely an unsanctioned event. They throw these raves in the middle of no where to avoid having to get permits, etc. It was unquestionably wreckless and stupid of the organizers to do this. Especially with international tourists who might just be ignorant enough to not know where this exactly is and the danger involved (but I'm guessing this wasn't an internationally marketed event). Maybe I'm wrong and they got permits, etc, and it was just marketing, but a few hundred people listening to psytrance on a funktion one sound system is a typical unsanctioned rave, imo. Any targeting of it, in my opinion, was entirely opportunistic. Whether it was scouted visually that day and signed off on by leadership or a more squad level act, idk. If they had scouts, the rave would've obviously made a shitload of noise in the open area. Especially the high bpm psytrance.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:20
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Marenghi posted:Ukraine is a free country with a professionally training military. There's a bit of a difference between that and a paramilitary force which was formed in an open air prison.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:21
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I'd point to the ANC if we're comparing insurgency attacks; they'd intentionally target bars, cafes, and restaurants; places with minimal guard presence, likely to cause high civilian casualties, to send the message that Apartheid's walled gardens would not be able to keep them safe (thinking about the recent videos of settlers taking planes back to their home countries). I'm not personally convinced that the rave attack was planned, but also I don't think it's as effective here because Israel (and especially Netanyahu) has decades of experience spinning attacks into "...and that's why we need to shoot more Palestinians."
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Oct 9, 2023 00:26
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ummel posted:Any targeting of it, in my opinion, was entirely opportunistic. Whether it was scouted visually that day and signed off on by leadership or a more squad level act, idk. If they had scouts, the rave would've obviously made a shitload of noise in the open area. Especially the high bpm psytrance. Framing this as a 'crime of opportunity' ignores that they were literally already going out looking to commit mass murder, you absolute goon
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Oct 9, 2023 00:27
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Count Roland posted:There will be no return to the status quo here. Status quo being Gaza as technically not occupied by Israel but still controlled by it. The blockade's goal was to keep Hamas from arming up and that has clearly failed. I think Israel re-occupying Gaza is possible. I think a mass expulsion of Palestinians is possible. Some sort of "temporary" martial law that ends up lasting a long while is possible. The blockade was never really about keeping Hamas from arming up. That was always the pretext for the blockade, but it was a rather thin one. Like most blockades, the intention was collective punishment against a civilian population, inflicting economic misery upon the populace with the objective of forcing either political concessions or the collapse of the ruling party's support. That's why the blockade policies were so inconsistent, changing constantly based on the political mood and often blocking or delaying civilian supplies. While it hasn't succeeded at that, the blockade has been fairly successful at containing and preventing attacks. Not by preventing Hamas from arming themselves, but by establishing a physical separation between Gazans and Israelis, forcing insurgents to leave friendly territory and cross a heavily monitored and militarized border area in order to carry out attacks. This attack is fairly historic, but in real terms it's still tiny compared to, say, the death toll of the Second Intifada. In the long run, this shouldn't shake confidence in the blockade, at least on the military level...but in the short-term, the Israeli government will likely have to take some drastic action, since the blockade had been so successful to date that this slip-up will carry a hefty political cost. I'm pretty confident we won't see an actual Israeli reoccupation of Gaza. That would be an utter disaster for Israel. Mixing Israeli troops in with the Gazan civilian population would be a massive gift to every insurgent group in Gaza. emSparkly posted:What actual vested interest does the western world have in keeping Israel around other than US Republicans believing it's necessary to start Armageddon? I loving hate that my government is never gonna do the right thing for Palestine ever and that I'm always gonna be a slave for the empire on the wrong side. To see this conflict explode and then see my president wholly condemn a people under genocide is soul crushing. Israel is a colonialist nation that's largely ruled by white people who immigrated from America and Europe*, operating a high-tech first-world military. Palestine is a bunch of anti-colonialist Muslim natives, and Palestinian military forces are mostly poorly-equipped insurgencies. It's not hard to see why the US (which spent most of the 21st century using a high-tech first-world military to fight native Muslim insurgencies in the Middle East) and Western Europe (which is full of ex-empires who used to use high-tech militaries to fight native insurgencies in their far-flung colonial empires) might tend to strongly identify with the Israelis, and strongly empathize with that side as a result. There's also the fact that the Jewish diaspora has a large presence in the US and many leading Western European countries, while the Palestinian diaspora mostly hasn't really reached that far. * This description doesn't fit all Israeli Jews, but the Israeli ruling classes tend to predominantly come from this group. Mizrahi Jews from places like the Middle East and Africa make up roughly half of Israel's Jewish population, but literally every Prime Minister Israel has ever had was a white person of Eastern European descent. The last couple of Prime Ministers even spent good chunks of their childhoods in the US. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 00:27
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Marenghi posted:Ukraine is a free country with a professionally training military. There's a bit of a difference between that and a paramilitary force which was formed in an open air prison. If you're at the level where you can successfully train your guys to do hang glider insertions as a unit you're at the level of professionalism where you can instill in them some kind of rules of engagement if you care to do so. It's entirely reasonable to hold them to the standards of a professional military when it comes to bare minimum poo poo like "don't go out of your way to intentionally kill non-combatants". These weren't non-military employees on an army base that got caught in a crossfire but fleeing civilians at a music festival who posed no threat to armed and organized men. It's a war crime when the IDF does it and it was a war crime here.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:27
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drat, all you motherfuckers in this thread must have trained with the IDF the way you're committing genocide on innocent strawmen. Obligatory hot take of mine-- killing civilians is bad and wrong, not because it's counterproductive but because it's intrinsically wrong. Israel does it a shitload more and it's criminal that they get away with it. It doesn't make killing civilians right when anyone else does it. The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves and fight against oppression and they don't need to be (and it's impossible to be) perfect, but it doesn't change the fact that murder is still wrong. FlamingLiberal posted:They really need to make up their mind about whether it was Russia or Iran helping Hamas. Get your talking points straight people. Iran has funded and trained Hamas for decades. There was about a 5 year split between the two over Hamas's support of the Saudi war in Yemen and Hamas's support of rebel forces in the Syrian Civil War. They reconciled about 5 years ago, though. That being said, a few hours ago US Secy of State Blinken said that he hadn't seen evidence of Iranian involvement in this attack, but obviously it's early and I doubt anyone in the US has a good sense of this yet. happyhippy posted:Definitely. There is absolutely no way that's true. Propaganda is an extremely high priority for any group like Hamas and they wouldn't have taken pictures and videos if they weren't thinking about the propaganda value. This might even have positive propaganda value; I wish we knew more about the internal directions that Hamas is going in. Since Libya/Syria/Iraq I get the sense that for a lot of groups the proper method of waging jihad has trended towards the IS style, or at least they need to adopt it in order to compete for recruits and funding. The fact that Hamas and IS hate(d) and were at war with each other would indicate some resistance to that trend, but I have to wonder if this is a broader shift in Hamas's methods.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:29
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The moral position is to support the discriminate violence of israel. The dense residential buildings they flattened with children inside were planned targets hit with guided munitions. Much more civilized than the indiscriminate violence of the palestinians. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 9, 2023 00:32
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I wouldn't call the recent attack indiscriminate. They selected a civilian target and sought to murder as many people there as possible.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:34
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Yudo posted:I never suggested you endorsed anything, despite the undertones of lionization in your post. I asked if it was honorable to kill helpless civilians in this particular honor culture. You seem to think yes.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:35
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Fill Baptismal posted:It's entirely reasonable to hold them to the standards of a professional military Just out of curiosity, exactly which professional military that does not feature young bloodthirsty nihilistic freaks who regularly commit war-crimes are you thinking of?
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Oct 9, 2023 00:37
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deathbysnusnu posted:The moral position is to support the discriminate violence of israel. The dense residential buildings they flattened with children inside were planned targets hit with guided munitions. Much more civilized than the indiscriminate violence of the palestinians. Theres nothing indiscriminate about what they did. I can't even imagine what positives, actual Palestinians(hamas or not), thought this whole thing would accomplish. It serves Iran an Putin more then anything...
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Oct 9, 2023 00:41
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I'm not sure but I suspect if you said to those guys, don't you realize that shooting these people is wrong? They might reply, "not according to my religion, it isn't." Since that what it goes back to. If you believe in God, there's a Heaven, so why is this life important? Only the next life is important, and it's not like your life has any dignity anyways. It is not a religious dispute.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:41
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Koos throwing out probations like he doesn't have at least a dozen twinks locked up in his basement
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Oct 9, 2023 00:42
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Fill Baptismal posted:It's a war crime when the IDF does it and it was a war crime here. This. It's no different if ISIS does it with a massacre in Paris in 2015 of a music show or if Hamas does it now. You don't target innocent civilians and it is gross how posters here are trying to excuse this behavior by either contextualizing or mansplaining the Palestinian cause. Main Paineframe posted:Israel is a colonialist nation that's largely ruled by white people who immigrated from America and Europe*, operating a high-tech first-world military. Palestine is a bunch of anti-colonialist Muslim natives, and Palestinian military forces are mostly poorly-equipped insurgencies.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:42
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Adenoid Dan posted:It is not a religious dispute. Ya, they were targeting Arab Israelis too.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:45
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How did Hamas capture all those IDF officers if they were focused on killing civilians?
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Oct 9, 2023 00:46
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