|
i fly airplanes posted:Really? You're calling the Jews "white" people now and baiting race into this? Disgusting. Within American society, your average Ashkenazi Jew is almost always tagged as white with all the privileges it confers. It's nuanced, but it's the reality. The same is true of most Ashkenazim in Israel. Main Paineframe was accurately describing that reality, it's not race-baiting. I never hear normal people talking about "The Jews."
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 00:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 07:24 |
|
|
Recoome posted:Maybe I’m just not seeing it but normally you’d get a stack of pro-Palestine stuff in the socialist circles in Australia but it’s complete radio silence right now - I’ve never seen that before and I’m not sure whether it’s because we’ve got our internal poo poo right now or because of the attacks on civilians.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 00:47
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:Just out of curiosity, exactly which professional military that does not feature young bloodthirsty nihilistic freaks who regularly commit war-crimes are you thinking of? Didn't you make a basically correct post earlier of "keeping war crimes near zero takes effort and organization on the part of military leadership / bureaucracy" earlier? Even by the most tragic interpretation of Palestinian youths getting their brains broken by shittery largely traceable back to Israel - which, to be clear, I agree with - there's still some amount where Hamas has organizationally hosed up. or considers the mass murder etc of civilians an active goal rather than an acceptable side effect but we wouldn't like that much when it was the active goal of the US or Israel, I think
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 00:49
|
|
|
My very amateur guess at why the Rave attack happened at all and why it turned out the way it did...attack of opportunity, it was a chance to easily gain a huge amount of hostages (incredibly useful to Hamas for a multitude of reasons), and they didn't really want to walk past and leave themselves vulnerable a thousand people who may or may not be armed but could do something stupid either way. But, it's still a very low priority target and they needed all the best people attacking military targets so they assigned the gruntiest of the grunts, who hosed it all up as grunts do. Not to say that would excuse anything that happened if it were true.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 00:50
|
|
|
i fly airplanes posted:Framing this as a 'crime of opportunity' ignores that they were literally already going out looking to commit mass murder, you absolute goon I promise I'm not trying to make the point you think I'm trying to make. I agree with you, they massacred the first group of people they came across, but it wasn't planned specifically ahead of time to target this festival, imo. And yes, I am a goon. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 00:50
|
|
|
Reik posted:How did Hamas capture all those IDF officers if they were focused on killing civilians? It's possible Hamas wasn't a completely organized monolith and some of their fighters were at best distracted by targets of opportunity that were vulnerable and made them mad, and at worst instructed to do a bunch of terroristic murder
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 00:52
|
|
|
Reik posted:How did Hamas capture all those IDF officers if they were focused on killing civilians? What IDF officers were attending a rave where 250 civilians were killed? Civilized Fishbot posted:Within American society, your average Ashkenazi Jew is almost always tagged as white with all the privileges it confers. It's nuanced, but it's the reality. The same is true of most Ashkenazim in Israel. Main Paineframe was accurately describing that reality, it's not race-baiting. Did this attack happen in "American society?" Americans projecting their society and politics onto a conflict on the other side of the world is another continuous problem.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 00:52
|
|
|
i fly airplanes posted:Americans projecting their society and politics onto a conflict on the other side of the world is another continuous problem. would the state of Israel in its current form exist if Americans had not been projecting their society and politics onto a conflict on the other side of the world for 80 years, though? I do not think these things are separable. I think I've paid a lot of taxes in the last 20 years and therefore, explicitly supported Israel's ethnic cleansing campaigns strongly with real-world materials. Any votes to the contrary which I may have cast over that same time frame, matter far less to the overall equation than the monetary contributions I've made. Of course, if I had refused to do that I would have been jailed for tax evasion, which would probably have been morally correct but pretty uncomfortable. "war is bad!", I post online, as money is magic'd out of my income to build more weapons systems to sell abroad and wherever else Neurolimal posted:I mainly have an aversion to the concept of a Clean War/Clean Army; War-crimes are inseperable from War. the brutality at the concert appears to be "about 2/3 of a My Lai", and while that's a crass thing to say, I am pointing it out because I think it's relevant, not just to be a contrarian dick. I agree with you completely, and think that part of that is because some % of people are hosed up and only held in check by social norms which don't exist in warzones, and then warzones in turn can break people and make them do weird or unprecedented things as far as I can tell. This isn't to let anyone off the hook; when people commit atrocities, they need to be held to account, but also if the people who ordered them or created the material conditions that enabled or pushed them to commit those atrocities are not also held to account it's less than useless. Cabbages and VHS fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Oct 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 00:56
|
|
|
i fly airplanes posted:Did this attack happen in "American society?" The user was giving their thoughts about why America (and to a much lesser extent its 'Western World' allies) stands behind Israel so much. In this context it's useful to know that modern American White Supremacy, which we've now exported all over the world, sorts most Ashkenazim as White for most purposes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:00
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:Didn't you make a basically correct post earlier of "keeping war crimes near zero takes effort and organization on the part of military leadership / bureaucracy" earlier? Even by the most tragic interpretation of Palestinian youths getting their brains broken by shittery largely traceable back to Israel - which, to be clear, I agree with - there's still some amount where Hamas has organizationally hosed up. I mainly have an aversion to the concept of a Clean War/Clean Army; War-crimes are inseperable from War. I'm all for the punishment of the soldiers who gunned down hapless rave attendees, and there is a fault in leadership for not being able to corral that group. I don't believe it's possible for an army to achieve zero-warcrimes during a war, because the nature of war fucks people up (as well as attracts the worst of humanity), but clearly more could have been done here; it's a Bucha-level fuckup.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:00
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:03
|
|
|
Cabbages and Kings posted:"war is bad!", I post online, as money is magic'd out of my income to build more weapons systems to sell abroad and wherever else How about those American "weapons systems" flowing to Ukraine?
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:06
|
|
|
BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I'm not sure but I suspect if you said to those guys, don't you realize that shooting these people is wrong? They might reply, "not according to my religion, it isn't." Since that what it goes back to. If you believe in God, there's a Heaven, so why is this life important? Only the next life is important, and it's not like your life has any dignity anyways. Are you implying that Islam is a region that condones violence?
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:10
|
|
|
The amount of lovely death & terrorism celebrating posting in here is insane. Is Israel ruled by a fuckin' lunatic right wing government? Hell yes. Is there a significant portion of the Israeli populace who hates Bibi? Also yes, which is why massive protests have been rocking the country for months now given their attempt to seize further power. And a lot of the rightward drift lately is because, well, Bibi is a fuckin' criminal whose trying to avoid being prosecuted for corruption. People keep dropping genocide/extermination here, and yet the population of Gaza has nearly doubled in the past 20 years. Apartheid ghetto that is being victimized by oppression? Heck yes. If Hamas had actually been out to win sympathy for their cause, there were far better ways to go about this. They could have, for instance, forced people out of their homes at gunpoint, and then torched the property. Burn the settlements, keep the people alive - now you're forcing the Israeli government to resettle its own people while also clearing the colonial settlements at the same time. Or as Conspiratiorist has noted, go after purely military targets. Or any number of other things that are not /going around massacring, raping, and killing unarmed people/ and thus triggering exactly the global & local responses we are seeing. Israel is a lovely apartheid state. gently caress Bibi for being a corrupt shitheel and making it worse. Massacring civilians is also wrong. gently caress Hamas for this poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:11
|
|
|
i fly airplanes posted:Really? You're calling the Jews "white" people now and baiting race into this? Disgusting.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:13
|
|
|
Pretty sure Hamas isn't out to win sympathy because sympathy has no utility, as far as I can tell.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:13
|
|
|
Dexanth posted:The amount of lovely death & terrorism celebrating posting in here is insane. If i were born into a captive state brutalized with no human rights by a government openly planning on eliminating my people i would resist but correctly.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:16
|
|
|
Homeless Friend posted:Pretty sure Hamas isn't out to win sympathy because sympathy has no utility, as far as I can tell. Sympathy put enough political pressure on Israel to end Gaza 4 with a nominal Palestinian victory, embarrassing the IDF without mass civilian killings and extracting concessions from the Israeli side rather than an invasion. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Oct 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:19
|
|
|
They routinely rack up massive body counts against Palestinian civilians, and willfully execute the unarmed. But I don't see this visceral reaction and "they don't want peace, they want to kill them all" from people who only show up now. It's only a bridge too far when it's your bridge that's burning.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:21
|
|
|
Dexanth posted:The amount of lovely death & terrorism celebrating posting in here is insane. I'm curious what the "correct" way would have been for Hamas to operate here that would please people. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Oct 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:21
|
|
|
Homeless Friend posted:Pretty sure Hamas isn't out to win sympathy because sympathy has no utility, as far as I can tell. They didn't have sympathy, but they had apathy at least I guess. The Iceland band at Eurovision, the 'free Palestine' to the tune of sweet Caroline... that poo poo stops. It didn't have any meaningful benefit to the palestinian people, but the level of sympathy Israel will now have will allow them to do stuff ten times worse than before and without any journalistic critiscm. It's like post 9-11 redux, it'll be like Afghanistan and Islamophobia like the early 2000s again. Hope all those twenty year olds they shot and raped were worth it for the cause.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:24
|
|
|
I imagine, if Hamas were fully in control of the unit, they'd have preferred 200 POW's (for prisoner exchanges) over killing a bunch of people armed with mesh shirts and glowsticks. Especially with how close they were to Gaza; you'd think it would be a very low-risk opportunity. I also feel like the way the Hamas soldiers elsewhere have operated supports the idea that Hamas didn't instruct for civillian massacres, rather they simply don't have any discipline at all in place for how to deal with encountering civilians; some groups are letting civilians go, some are abducting them, one group defended a woman and child from harm, one's taking selfies with the mother of an Israeli minister, the closest to an overarching policy I could guess on is "abduct Israelis if you can". I would hope that, as the skirmish continues and they capture more territory, they develop some discipline on this, but I'm not holding my breath.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:24
|
|
|
Dexanth posted:If Hamas had actually been out to win sympathy for their cause, there were far better ways to go about this. They could have, for instance, forced people out of their homes at gunpoint, and then torched the property. Burn the settlements, keep the people alive - now you're forcing the Israeli government to resettle its own people while also clearing the colonial settlements at the same time. Killiing tons of innocent people has a lot more utility than going after purely military targets. I think it's ridiculous to assume that Hamas would have enjoyed as much success if they purely focused on military targets -- they already basically overran everything they could, which was poorly manned border outposts. Had they decided to pursue anything bigger than that, they would have gotten probably gotten annihilated. I'm sure that would have built "international sympathy" but that's not really worth anything. Meanwhile, going after civilians allowed them to take a ton more hostages and also rack up bodies. It magnifies greatly the failure of a settler-friendly government. And politically it forces the Israelis into a ground confrontation where Hamas could make a stand and potentially survive (a "victory"), whereas a focus on military targets would have left the Israelis with the option of just doing bombing with no risk, like all the other times. And by going after civilians they were able to take all kinds of people hostage, such as children, which further limits the options of the Israeli government and gives them more leverage for hostage negotiations. Yeah that's really lovely and morally wrong but that's why they did it this way as opposed to going after military targets alone.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:25
|
|
|
Spoke Lee posted:They routinely rack up massive body counts against Palestinian civilians, and willfully execute the unarmed. But I don't see this visceral reaction and "they don't want peace, they want to kill them all" from people who only show up now. It's only a bridge too far when it's your bridge that's burning. Two wrongs do make a right!
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:26
|
|
|
F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:
And with BLM, I was entirely in support of them looting Targets and the like because property and people are very different things. gently caress up all the property you like. If Hamas were clearing & blowing up buildings, more power to them. Disrupt things like crazy. Don't let them have peace. Take out military targets. Assassinate officials supporting apartheid policies. Don't kill random people.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:27
|
|
|
Weasling Weasel posted:They didn't have sympathy, but they had apathy at least I guess. The Iceland band at Eurovision, the 'free Palestine' to the tune of sweet Caroline... that poo poo stops. It didn't have any meaningful benefit to the palestinian people, but the level of sympathy Israel will now have will allow them to do stuff ten times worse than before and without any journalistic critiscm. It's like post 9-11 redux, it'll be like Afghanistan and Islamophobia like the early 2000s again. Hope all those twenty year olds they shot and raped were worth it for the cause. Israel already has all the sympathy. On what planet do you live on? No one who was free Palestine before is going to be phased by this event. Israel’s literal response is “we will do war crimes but harder”. There are also all these references to rape. Has this been verified?
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:28
|
|
|
Dexanth posted:And with BLM, I was entirely in support of them looting Targets and the like because property and people are very different things. I feel like you are expecting an awful lot of a paramilitary organization that has been trapped inside an open air prison, when the military of the US, the most powerful and sophisticated murder machine on the face of the planet, is not capable of accomplishing this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:29
|
|
|
Spoke Lee posted:They routinely rack up massive body counts against Palestinian civilians, and willfully execute the unarmed. But I don't see this visceral reaction and "they don't want peace, they want to kill them all" from people who only show up now. It's only a bridge too far when it's your bridge that's burning. Yo, I'm one of the people who thinks that Israel consistently shows they don't act in any good faith towards a permanent peace solution, and have some hosed up OT style vengeance strategies going on that involve using mass civilian casualties and oppression. Yet it's still possible to understand the conditions that inevitably lead to Hamas actions like this while still 100% condemning as barbaric and inexcusable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:31
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:31
|
|
|
Dexanth posted:The amount of lovely death & terrorism celebrating posting in here is insane. *Haydenishly* From my perspective, the historically and contextually illiterate pearl clutching outrage is insane
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:34
|
|
|
deathbysnusnu posted:If i were born into a captive state brutalized with no human rights by a government openly planning on eliminating my people i would resist but correctly. Neurolimal posted:I would hope that, as the skirmish continues and they capture more territory, they develop some discipline on this, but I'm not holding my breath. Ok, so are the palestinian militants adult humans that can choose not to inflict murder, rape, and torture on innocent civilians or unthinking agents of israeli conditioning that are incapable of not inflicting murder, rape, and torture of innocent civilians. I'm getting mixed messages here if the individuals that committed those acts should be receive retribution.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:38
|
|
|
E. Revenant posted:Ok, so are the palestinian militants adult humans that can choose not to inflict murder, rape, and torture on innocent civilians or unthinking agents of israeli conditioning that are incapable of not inflicting murder, rape, and torture of innocent civilians. I'm getting mixed messages here if the individuals that committed those acts should be receive retribution. I don't know if you realize this, but these are probably two different posters
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:40
|
|
|
Fuligin posted:*Haydenishly* From my perspective, the historically and contextually illiterate pearl clutching outrage is insane Would you describe 9/11 as pearl clutching? After all, given US intelligence failures, their history in the Gulf and Afghanistan, and even involvement with Al-Qaeda. Your perspective seems woefully inadequate to analyze current affairs, and frankly just shitposting, if all your "pearl clutching outrage" response is just 'well did they deserve it??'
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:44
|
|
|
I normally don't post in this thread because it's like setting off dynamite, but when my mother's side family for almost 200 years dealt with horrific oppression and encroachment in south America they didn't leave the amazon and go to town and gun down civilians, because we always wanted to never be the same as the horrible colonizers, instead we fought the actual colonizer government. if we had instead targeted anyone indiscriminately, I wouldn't be here posting as the collective of colonizers and their government would have ganged up to finish us off. What political win are you going to get from gunning down people in a rave, or kidnapping women other than it satisfying some high testerone level and a horrific level of misogyny and violence against women? This is bad and it is really bad for Palestinians and Israeli civilians.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:45
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:I don't know if you realize this, but these are probably two different posters Either one could reply and in doing so acknowledge the point of the other poster.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:48
|
|
|
E. Revenant posted:Ok, so are the palestinian militants adult humans that can choose not to inflict murder, rape, and torture on innocent civilians or unthinking agents of israeli conditioning that are incapable of not inflicting murder, rape, and torture of innocent civilians. I'm getting mixed messages here if the individuals that committed those acts should be receive retribution. The israelis with all of the levers of power and the ownership of the apartheid state could easily stop. The moral calculus for them is one where the atrocities are done entirely for their own sake whereas the palestinians are fighting for their right to not be genocided. They are not on even moral grounds and any attempt to portray it as such is lending support to a regime that could stop crimes against humanity but doesn't.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:52
|
|
|
Senor Tron posted:Yo, I'm one of the people who thinks that Israel consistently shows they don't act in any good faith towards a permanent peace solution, and have some hosed up OT style vengeance strategies going on that involve using mass civilian casualties and oppression. I'm not questioning any of that. And I agree. I am asking why this same death and destruction only elicits a response if Israel bears the cost. Why is this evidence that they can not be negotiated with, when to some people responding, the mass killings in 2019 wasn't evidence of Israel deserving the same judgment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:54
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:56
|
|
|
Dexanth posted:The amount of lovely death & terrorism celebrating posting in here is insane. Bibi isn't the problem israel is the problem (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 01:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 07:24 |
|
|
Spoke Lee posted:I'm not questioning any of that. And I agree. I am asking why this same death and destruction only elicits a response if Israel bears the cost. Why is this evidence that they can not be negotiated with, when to some people responding, the mass killings in 2019 wasn't evidence of Israel deserving the same judgment. Can you demonstrate that the people here shocked and aggrieved by this violence were not so in 2019? If anything, criticism of Israel seems the norm itt, and it is morally consistent to condemn murder no matter who does it. I, for one, do not think we can butcher our way to a better world.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2023 02:02
|
|