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Weasling Weasel posted:They didn't have sympathy, but they had apathy at least I guess. The Iceland band at Eurovision, the 'free Palestine' to the tune of sweet Caroline... that poo poo stops. It didn't have any meaningful benefit to the palestinian people, but the level of sympathy Israel will now have will allow them to do stuff ten times worse than before and without any journalistic critiscm. It's like post 9-11 redux, it'll be like Afghanistan and Islamophobia like the early 2000s again. Hope all those twenty year olds they shot and raped were worth it for the cause.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:03
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deathbysnusnu posted:The israelis with all of the levers of power and the ownership of the apartheid state could easily stop. The moral calculus for them is one where the atrocities are done entirely for their own sake whereas the palestinians are fighting for their right to not be genocided. They are not on even moral grounds and any attempt to portray it as such is lending support to a regime that could stop crimes against humanity but doesn't. Ok maybe you didn't read original post I quoted for reference. Neurolimal posted:I imagine, if Hamas were fully in control of the unit, they'd have preferred 200 POW's (for prisoner exchanges) over killing a bunch of people armed with mesh shirts and glowsticks. Especially with how close they were to Gaza; you'd think it would be a very low-risk opportunity. He seems to be saying there was a way for Hamas to attack their oppressors without atrocities on innocents and you are saying that the latest atrocities by palestinan militants was always going to happen because they have no choice in their actions.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:04
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E. Revenant posted:Either one could reply and in doing so acknowledge the point of the other poster. I don't recall voting you emperor of the thread, but in good faith I'll oblige: I think emotions can and do run high when one has experienced injustices for their entire life right before landing on enemy territory with a loaded gun, and that can and does result in atrocities. That helps to understand a potential 'why', but doesn't condone them; you can simultaneously acknowledge the atrocities that happen at a granular scale while also recognizing how significant (or not) they are on a macro scale. Equating it to a 'normal' tragedy; if a mistreated and unmedicated mentally ill man shoots up a concert, you can understand why he was compelled to do & the macro actions that should be taken to avoid it, but you must also recognize that it is 100% a tragedy. To summarize my feelings from the past few posts: - It was wrong to murder the ravers (both from a tactical perspective, but also the perspective of being a basic human being) - I don't think it was centrally executed (and therefore isn't emblematic of Hamas' goal in this operation) - With this belief in mind it doesn't alter my personal calculus on if this offensive is good or not - I do think Hamas is responsible for the lack of discipline that caused it to happen - I think this offensive has been wildly successful on several layers in a way never before seen, which also might make posters overenthusiastic (if not outright tone-deaf or abusive). - I think we all ultimately agree that mowing down civilians is wrong, and simply disagree on how it paints the offensive, as well as some posters perhaps having residual spite because of how disproportionate the sympathy is allocated in mass media; if you witness US media ignoring decades of atrocities committed by Israel towards Palestine, then see wall-to-wall coverage of Israeli tragedies, you might be tempted towards ire when seeing that sympathy within the thread. - said ire is misguided; Maine Paineframe, Absurd Alzhared, Emanresu, they're all good posters WRT the I/P conflict. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 02:06
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Yudo posted:Can you demonstrate that the people here shocked and aggrieved by this violence were not so in 2019? If anything, criticism of Israel seems the norm itt, and it is morally consistent to condemn murder no matter who does it. I, for one, do not think we can butcher our way to a better world. I would put it on those posters to prove that they have previously posted comments demonstrating such frustration and distaste, with calls for the applicable individuals from the IDF and Israeli government involved to be held accountable. Otherwise, claiming to believe such things, with nothing to actually back it up, is worthless. These posters might as well change their name to Martin Niemöller.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:07
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Celexi posted:I normally don't post in this thread because it's like setting off dynamite, but when my mother's side family for almost 200 years dealt with horrific oppression and encroachment in south America they didn't leave the amazon and go to town and gun down civilians, because we always wanted to never be the same as the horrible colonizers, instead we fought the actual colonizer government. Yep, take out the government, target the soldiers, maybe target civilians but as hostages to secure demands like the release of Palestinian prisoners etc but yes it's just stupid and damaging to your cause to indiscriminately rape, and kill civilians, brutally beat and mutilate bodies etc. Not exactly a fresh take I'm sure but if Ukrainian soldiers marched into Russia and did the same thing to Russian civilians it wouldn't at all be justified. The rape or murder of civilians as retaliation is never right and is only going to harm the fight for freedom and if anything, set it back as you just end up decreasing the pressure on the colonizers. Ultimately when this happens instead of a fight for freedom, it just comes across as a desire to do harm and spread terror, no matter where the seeds of that anger lie. This wasn't a group of angry young untrained men who grabbed some AK's and ran across the border, this was a coordinated attack by most likely trained Hamas soldiers, orchestrated by the Hamas leaders. They could have very easily played this differently, but instead they from what it seems, largely sent them across to just murder as many Israeli's as possible, ultimately any sympathy towards the Palestinian cause, which was building momentum, has been heavily damaged, and now it just gives those who view them as terrorists who desire the ethnic cleansing of all Jews even more ammo. The IRA, while it was responsible for civilian deaths, knew that you really want to focus your targets on those of the government because otherwise it just does massive damage to the optics of your cause, even down to things like the money where those that are funding your cause are much less likely to supply you with weapons and cash if you're using them to kill innocents. edit: I'll concede there's there's always going to be "bad elements" in groups like this you send into countries they have a hatred for, but what doesn't help is the mass support that has followed those actions. Just Chamber fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 02:10
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Celexi posted:I normally don't post in this thread because it's like setting off dynamite, but when my mother's side family for almost 200 years dealt with horrific oppression and encroachment in south America they didn't leave the amazon and go to town and gun down civilians, because we always wanted to never be the same as the horrible colonizers, instead we fought the actual colonizer government. Who is this though? I am not convinced that there is a (successful) indigenous South American liberation movement that, over the course of 200 years, never killed civilians. This is not to say that killing civilians is a necessity for this group or for Palestinians to liberate themselves, but the point is that I'm not sure who has managed to prove they have the unambiguously moral way to freedom which clearly the Palestinians should just follow and everyone can be happy.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:11
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Yudo posted:Can you demonstrate that the people here shocked and aggrieved by this violence were not so in 2019? If anything, criticism of Israel seems the norm itt, and it is morally consistent to condemn murder no matter who does it. I, for one, do not think we can butcher our way to a better world. I'm not asking about what people purely think. I am talking about actually being driven to comment. Why is this what drove someone to speak out about how this is evidence that Israel was right to turn Gaza into a prison? What is different this time for them?
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Oct 9, 2023 02:15
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 02:17
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Some people may not have been posting for a long time but I personally have posts going back to 2015 relating to major events and have been on the pro-Palestine side of every argument. Until today.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:21
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SourKraut posted:I would put it on those posters to prove that they have previously posted comments demonstrating such frustration and distaste, with calls for the applicable individuals from the IDF and Israeli government involved to be held accountable. I'm going to blow your mind here, but people can express opinions outside of this forum. Spoke Lee posted:I'm not asking about what people purely think. I am talking about actually being driven to comment. Why is this what drove someone to speak out about how this is evidence that Israel was right to turn Gaza into a prison? What is different this time for them? Perhaps they have time to post now. Perhaps they lack people to talk to about this issue now, and that was not the case in 2019. That is to say, there are innumerable reasons aside from hypocrisy or selective outrage.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:24
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 There has been a higher than normal level of posting about what "some people/posters" think that has served no real purpose other than as fodder for dunking on their supposed hypocrisy. If the people you're referencing post here, then it should be easy to quote them. If they're notable and are writing articles elsewhere, link it. Otherwise, cut it out.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:25
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:Who is this though? I am not convinced that there is a (successful) indigenous South American liberation movement that, over the course of 200 years, never killed civilians. The Piaroa
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Oct 9, 2023 02:27
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personally, at this specific moment in time, i'm basicaly on board with most all of this
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Oct 9, 2023 02:31
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Forgive my ignorance but why isn’t the wider arab world putting pressure on Egypt to open up the sinai border to let civilians flee? Seems to me the only way to get people out of harms way and I can’t help but wonder if such camps wouldn’t garner international financial support.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:36
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Some people may not have been posting for a long time but I personally have posts going back to 2015 relating to major events and have been on the pro-Palestine side of every argument. Until today. I’m still on the pro-Palestinian side today, because I don’t think a few sick fucks doing some particularly deranged poo poo has a great bearing on the worthiness of the liberation of an entire society, any more than I think Israeli atrocities invalidate their right to a proper two-state solution with freedom and security for both states.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:40
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Diqnol posted:Forgive my ignorance but why isn’t the wider arab world putting pressure on Egypt to open up the sinai border to let civilians flee? Seems to me the only way to get people out of harms way and I can’t help but wonder if such camps wouldn’t garner international financial support. Arabs in general don't care about palestinians except for political scores, palestinians refugees in middle eastern countries are usually kept in segregated neighborhoods and with little civil rights or even legal presence.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:41
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Some people may not have been posting for a long time but I personally have posts going back to 2015 relating to major events and have been on the pro-Palestine side of every argument. Until today. I don't think being critical of Hamas' actions the last day or two means you are no longer 'on the pro-Palestine side'. Hamas ≠ Palestine. Despite what both they (and Israel) would like everyone to think.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:42
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 02:43
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Diqnol posted:Forgive my ignorance but why isn’t the wider arab world putting pressure on Egypt to open up the sinai border to let civilians flee? Seems to me the only way to get people out of harms way and I can’t help but wonder if such camps wouldn’t garner international financial support. The dirty "secret" from the past 70 years is that the Arab world doesn't give two shits about the Palestinians.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:45
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Diqnol posted:Forgive my ignorance but why isn’t the wider arab world putting pressure on Egypt to open up the sinai border to let civilians flee? Seems to me the only way to get people out of harms way and I can’t help but wonder if such camps wouldn’t garner international financial support. israel would really quite like palestinians going somewhere else forever and never coming back all neighboring countries would prefer this not to happen, in part because it's likely to be permanent immigration whether this is the least-worst option is well beyond me but me gut finds it distasteful
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Oct 9, 2023 02:45
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Google Jeb Bush posted:israel would really quite like palestinians going somewhere else forever and never coming back Yes ethnic cleansing is distasteful and should not be considered the “least-worst” option…
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Oct 9, 2023 02:48
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Egypt is in all likelihood given incentives by the US specifically to cooperate with Israel in sealing Gaza. The military coup that happened after the organic coup happened almost immediately after they settled on opening the border for Gaza. With that in mind, even if the number of countries actively helping Palestine was bigger than "Lebanon, Iran" Egypt likely still wouldn't budge, and going off the border skirmishes they're not as soft on the ground as the IDF.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:48
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Yudo posted:I'm going to blow your mind here, but people can express opinions outside of this forum. Sure, but when they suddenly start posting about an issue only because the dominant side for once was the one significantly impacted, saying "I think it's bad when Israel does it too!" and yet couldn't ever be arsed to care to come in and post such after any major IDF assault/mass civilian casualty event in the last, oh, 24 years of this forum's existence, it kinda comes off a bit... fake? It makes it seem as if they're only now engage because of natural Human Tribalism tendencies, in which their outrage meter has cranked up a bunch because their intentional or unintentional bias has been aggrieved.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:50
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah. The sympathy may not have been enough to free Palestine but Hamas establishing themselves as an ISIS-level pariah worldwide will lead to far, far worse consequences. Hamas has already spent pretty much its existence as an ISIS-level pariah, with Israel and a number of major Western countries treating it as just another terrorist organization, completely refusing to conduct diplomacy with it or even officially acknowledge its control of Gaza. For example, the US has had Hamas on the official US list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations since the list was created in 1997, which means it's illegal for anyone subject to US jurisdiction to aid it or provide services to it in any way. While Israel has had to occasionally bow to realities on the ground and quietly negotiate with Hamas under the table, other countries have largely toed their official lines and refused to deal with Hamas at all. This has led to some real embarrassments, like the US sending their Gaza aid money to Fatah, who have essentially no actual presence in Gaza. As a result, Hamas doesn't really have anything to lose in terms of official diplomatic treatment. They're already international pariahs, treated as approximately equivalent to Al-Qaeda.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:53
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SourKraut posted:it kinda comes off a bit... fake? So does acting like the loving posting mossad. Main Paineframe posted:
A democratically elected Al-qaeda. Jimlit fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 02:55
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 02:56
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SourKraut posted:Sure, but when they suddenly start posting about an issue only because the dominant side for once was the one significantly impacted, saying "I think it's bad when Israel does it too!" and yet couldn't ever be arsed to care to come in and post such after any major IDF assault/mass civilian casualty event in the last, oh, 24 years of this forum's existence, it kinda comes off a bit... fake? quote:It makes it seem as if they're only now engage because of natural Human Tribalism tendencies, in which their outrage meter has cranked up a bunch because their intentional or unintentional bias has been aggrieved. But turning a terrorist act/tragedy into a commentary about how human emotions are biased? Really? What are you trying to achieve, here?
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Oct 9, 2023 02:56
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Dexanth posted:The amount of lovely death & terrorism celebrating posting in here is insane. are you for real making the argument "its not genocide if the population grows"?? thats farcically incorrect and right out of the white supremacist playbook. sympathy has zero value to hamas, as it will do nothing at all to free their people. Celexi posted:I normally don't post in this thread because it's like setting off dynamite, but when my mother's side family for almost 200 years dealt with horrific oppression and encroachment in south America they didn't leave the amazon and go to town and gun down civilians, because we always wanted to never be the same as the horrible colonizers, instead we fought the actual colonizer government. tying in with the above, this is manifestly untrue. all the sympathy in the world will not stop a single bulldozer engine, but you know what actually does have value to the occupied territories? Fear. Do you know a good way to get settlers to stop encroaching on your home? https://twitter.com/ME_Observer_/status/1710557264497557687 make them genuinely fearful of their safety if they remain settled on your land. And kidnappings are absolutely of political value, in fact they have a proven track record for being extremely effective against the IDF. Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah. The sympathy may not have been enough to free Palestine but Hamas establishing themselves as an ISIS-level pariah worldwide will lead to far, far worse consequences. What possible loving consequences could they have????? the whole world does nothing at all to help them while they are on the path to extermination! And of course, to go without saying, the slaughter of people even as morally depraved as settler colonialists is still a wrong thing, but this is the single most useless argument to make. The palestinians have been mercilessly oppressed, tortured, and murdered for decades! The events that have transpired are a truly horrific and awful thing that have come about. They are also the first chance in over a decade for the status quo of imprisonment and extermination of palestine to be upset. The absolute worst thing for the palestinians is not for them to be hated, but for them to be viewed with contempt, objects merely to be pushed aside. These horrors are proving that these oppressed people are beings that even the oppressors may have to fear, or at least give some respect to. Settlers dying in the street and herded back like cattle to the open air prison are morally abhorrent. It is also an extremely effective means the palestinians have at their disposal to gaining freedom e: to be clear, i fully agree that abducting the settlers instead of killing them, to say nothing of parading their corpses around, is a far better course for hamas to take, both morally and pragmatically. But it's the height of naivete to claim that the violence visited on the people in the music festival has zero value. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 02:57
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To provide some material besides the rave, as the war is still ongoing: Cabinet Secretary Yossi Fuchs: ‘The First Gaza War is planned to be the last one’ UN Security Council meets, takes no action on US demand quote:The U.N. Security Council held an emergency meeting behind closed doors Sunday, with the United States demanding all 15 members strongly condemn “these heinous terrorist attacks committed by Hamas,” but they took no immediate action. Sounds like the wrinkle is in denouncing the entirety of Hamas' offensive; Russia was unwilling to agree to a blanket statement, seeming to prefer denouncing the civilian murders.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:59
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Neurolimal posted:To provide some material besides the rave, as the war is still ongoing: It's because Israel is vocally supportive of Ukraine. What a surprise. Russia doesn't actually give a gently caress about Gaza.
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Oct 9, 2023 03:03
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A big flaming stink posted:
settlers in the west bank leaving are going to help people in gaza how? are you serious?
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Oct 9, 2023 03:03
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mannerup posted:seeing as I'm somebody who only started posting in this thread yesterday after not posting since 2017 (but still lurking SA during that time and which I have mostly lurked for nearly 20 years) ill give you an answer; Twitter has been where I've been posting during that time and it has become a complete shithole to discuss politics (made more apparent by the events of the last 24 hours) and bluesky doesn't have much traffic, so I came here to discuss a seismic geopolitical event in a forum I typically lurk Yea, I've been largely gone for the better part of a decade as well, and even now I'm hardly as active as I used to be - not being in HS/College anymore being a big part of that, less free time and all. What prompted me to post was wanting to advocate for the seemingly unpopular position of 'Israel has been incredibly loving lovely. Murdering people is also incredibly lovely. One can condemn the hosed up actions of both sides here'. A big flaming stink posted:are you for real making the argument "its not genocide if the population grows"?? thats farcically incorrect and right out of the white supremacist playbook. sympathy has zero value to hamas, as it will do nothing at all to free their people. Nah, my definition was outdated. This prompted me to go doing some quick reading and I was wrong as I had been under the mistaken impression mass killing was a required thing here. Reading the UN definition, yep, I'll give you this100% Dexanth fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 03:06
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 03:06
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SourKraut posted:Sure, but when they suddenly start posting about an issue only because the dominant side for once was the one significantly impacted, saying "I think it's bad when Israel does it too!" and yet couldn't ever be arsed to care to come in and post such after any major IDF assault/mass civilian casualty event in the last, oh, 24 years of this forum's existence, it kinda comes off a bit... fake? I don't post in here because the situation in Palestine makes me incredibly angry, disgusted and horrified and I don't find venting to be something that helps me feel better but instead something that just makes me feel worse. It is one of the situations where the more I think about it the more I want to scream and rage at the absolute awfulness of it and how incredibly disgusting it is and on a personal level there is only so much I can take before I need to step away and focus on something else. It is not a subject I can find any value in contributing my voice to because at the end of the day what I want to do is scream "STOP BEING SHITHEADS TO INNOCENT PEOPLE, YOU FUCKS" every time I read about the latest awful thing Israel did. I posted here yesterday because the response I saw, which at least to me read like 'it's okay to commit a little atrocity as a treat as long as you can justify the target', made me angry enough to post something. I have since written up and deleted several rather long posts because I realized after re-reading them that they were pretty much raw anger and strong emotions that I worried would get me probed for expressing them and which didn't make me feel particularly better having written them out.
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Oct 9, 2023 03:07
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Pook Good Mook posted:It's because Israel is vocally supportive of Ukraine. What a surprise. Russia doesn't actually give a gently caress about Gaza. I know the relations in the region are complicated, but Russia and Israel are actually strong allies. The Russian diaspora in Israel is gigantic, and they both have had visa free access for their citizens for a long time. Israel has dragged its feet and tried to do as little possible wrt Ukraine, publicly and privately.
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Oct 9, 2023 03:10
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Thanks for the answers all. My wife’s family on the dads side are west bank Palestinians who had the west bank wall built through their land so just trying to “get it” as best I can Where I have mostly been with it is its western hypocrisy and a massive tragedy but being honest with myself it has been pretty superficial on my end. To this point, anyway…
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Oct 9, 2023 03:11
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mannerup posted:by raping and murdering civilians with the implicit threat that the sadistic behavior will continue unabated, to be clear Can you provide verifiable reporting of widespread sexual assault. You continually bring it up as if it was a widespread phenomenon or part of a larger strategy. Also you might consider not using the R word.
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Oct 9, 2023 03:11
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Diqnol posted:Forgive my ignorance but why isn’t the wider arab world putting pressure on Egypt to open up the sinai border to let civilians flee? Seems to me the only way to get people out of harms way and I can’t help but wonder if such camps wouldn’t garner international financial support. There's already several million Palestinian refugees in the countries surrounding Israel, with a substantial portion of them still living in refugee camps to this very day (despite the fact that most of them were driven out of Israel in 1948 or 1967). That's particularly true for Jordan, where Palestinian refugees make up nearly one-fifth of the country's current population, but pretty much all of Israel's neighbors (including Egypt) have taken plenty of Palestinian refugees driven out by past conflicts. Moreover, the size of the existing Palestinian refugee situation clearly indicates that Israel has no intention of ever allowing those refugees to return. The general consensus among Arab states has long been that Israel is intentionally terrifying civilians into leaving as part of an ethnic-cleansing campaign, and Israel's neighbors largely aren't particularly inclined to play any further role in that. The official stance of the Arab countries is that the Palestinians are temporary refugees who should be permitted to return to their homes as soon as is practical, and while that's pretty obviously not going to happen, they don't intend to play along as Israel drives out even more refugees.
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Oct 9, 2023 03:14
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Seeing estimates that 1,000 Israelis are dead, 2,150 wounded, 150 captured. Palestinian side: 450/2392. As far as I'm aware Palestine has never matched Israel on casualties during these conflicts, let alone outpaced. I know a lot of posters think that the end result of this is going to be that Hamas is beaten back & Gaza gets glassed, but it can't be understated just how much Hamas is achieving (that all pragmatic assessments say shouldn't even be possible), and how incompetent the IDF comes off as. I knew that they were dramatically reliant on airpower, but I figured they could at least man their guard towers. As far as I'm aware they haven't even gotten to Gaza's walls on foot; Hamas is free to resupply and reinforce the insurgents. We're going on day 3 of Hamas sticking to Israel, and West Bank Palestinians are starting to agitate. Maybe they do get beat back, but I don't think it's a matter of fact right now. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 03:21
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Main Paineframe posted:Hamas has already spent pretty much its existence as an ISIS-level pariah, with Israel and a number of major Western countries treating it as just another terrorist organization, completely refusing to conduct diplomacy with it or even officially acknowledge its control of Gaza. America, at this moment, has a bunch of people serving life sentences with not even the slightest sign that release will ever be possible, because of the legal reasoning that their charities donated to orphanages that “served children of terrorists and suicide bombers” and that any increase in the wellbeing of the gazan population that comes about through institutions “culturally affiliated” with hamas is legally the same as giving them guns. It’s really hard to get more pariah than that.
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Oct 9, 2023 03:30
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