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Darth Walrus posted:Nope, Saudi Arabia was offering no support whatsoever to Palestine or Palestinians - this was purely about getting Israel as a military sugar-daddy in light of the catastrophic failure of the Yemen campaign and their escalating tensions with Iran. If anything, it would have escalated the general atmosphere of hopelessness within Palestine. Surely that’s a pessimistic take. Nations who haven’t talked since formed opening communication can be looked at as the start of something. People keep comparing this situation to others, but the religious aspect that’s different in I/P sucks a vacuum out of any chance for peaceful resolution.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:05
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So we're at the point of attending a music festival as a "carelsss influencer girl" is asking to be raped and murdered. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 9, 2023 11:07
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Was this posted already? Apologies if so. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-minister-announces-complete-siege-of-gaza-no-power-food-or-fuel/ quote:Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says he has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip, as Israel fights the Hamas terror group.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:07
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:I haven't seen this "peace festival" claim from any domestic sources here. That seems made up. It was just a psytrance rave. About as peace festival as any collection of neo-hippies. It was not specifically a rally for peace or anything. Here's the promo in English. https://www.eventer.co.il/event/novaparalellotranslate/wCqCL J33uk posted:So we're at the point of attending a music festival as a "carelsss influencer girl" is asking to be raped and murdered. We're actually at the, "if she was raped, you'd be able to prove it with citations  " point in the conversation. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) ummel fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 11:08
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Great Enoch posted:Yeah, I don't know how I would react if I'd spent my entire life being brutalised and traumatised, embarking on a suicide mission that I know will result in the immolation of everybody I love, and the first thing I come across is my own age peers making my suffering a venue for their hedonism. Whether it's Russia or Hamas, "they killed a lot of innocent civilians going about their day to day but" is the worst sentence on this forum this year.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:11
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:I haven't seen this "peace festival" claim from any domestic sources here. That seems made up. I've seen it called a rave, music festival, dance festival, trance festival and peace festival. Why I prefaced with "even if it was a". ummel posted:It was just a psytrance rave. About as peace festival as any collection of neo-hippies. It was not specifically a rally for peace or anything. Here's the promo in English. Thanks for the clarification. Apologies for mislabelling it.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:11
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team overhead smash posted:As in IRA’s were worse, better or just fundamentally incomparable? The precursors to modern Hamas weren't really viewed as hardline militants. Religious movements in Palestine were seen as mostly interested in studying the Quran and charitable work unlike Fatah who was seen as hardline militants by the Israelis. Because of that, early Hamas wasn't subject to the same sort of crackdown that secular nationalist/communist groups were. When Hamas began arming, the Israelis understood it as arming to fight other Palestinian groups (and Hamas did fight other Palestinians). Israel maintains that they didn't fund or provide weapons to Hamas and I don't think there's any solid evidence they did, but they definitely approached Hamas with a lighter touch than Fatah and there are instances on the ground of them letting Hamas fighters attack Fatah where if it had been the other way around they almost certainly would have arrested everyone.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:11
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Surely that’s a pessimistic take. Nations who haven’t talked since formed opening communication can be looked at as the start of something. You really aren't familiar with the present government of Saudi Arabia and their degree of concern for the little guys, are you? Israel has guns and money, Palestine doesn't. That's pretty much the end of the story where gleefully corrupt sybarites like MBS are concerned.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:12
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:the religious aspect J33uk posted:So we're at the point of attending a music festival as a "carelsss influencer girl" is asking to be raped and murdered.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:13
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Sorry it was already discussed before here but thread is a bit too fast, I didint manage to read it all: is there evidence for these rape claims? Ive seem people talking about hundreds of women raped in social media, but so far didint saw a single source for that
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Oct 9, 2023 11:19
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J33uk posted:So we're at the point of attending a music festival as a "carelsss influencer girl" is asking to be raped and murdered. The worst of all possible crimes, being cringe.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:19
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Surely that’s a pessimistic take. Nations who haven’t talked since formed opening communication can be looked at as the start of something. Yeah, the start of something bad. The absolute monarchy built on slave labour that genocides Yemenis and bone saws journalists is not building up its relationship with Israel to advance the cause of human rights.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:19
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Elias_Maluco posted:Sorry it was already discussed before here but thread is a bit too fast, I didint manage to read it all: is there evidence for these rape claims? Not from any credible source, at least in israeli media. But really after that video with the naked female raver's corpse being paraded around and spit on, it's not something outside the realm of possibility.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:22
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Weasling Weasel posted:How would you react? Would you react by gunning them down in cold blood? If you finish that thought to it's conclusion you either come to the conclusion that the act was an atrocity, or a far worst conclusion about your character. Nothing I've said implies I think that act was anything but an atrocity. I'm saying it's the absolute peak of keyboard-warrior arrogance to assume that we can understand the mindset of somebody whose life experiences has brought them to a point where they can commit something like that. If you've ever spoken to people from Gaza (or, for that matter, IDF veterans who have been involved in the loss of civilian life), you'd understand how deeply alien these experiences are to almost every poster on this board. It's a failure of empathy to think that murderers are born and not made, which might speak to a bias that all Palestinians are inherently terrorists.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:26
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Fanatic posted:I've seen it called a rave, music festival, dance festival, trance festival and peace festival. Why I prefaced with "even if it was a". It's very much a media thing. I've noticed it too. It's about a peace festival as Woodstock, etc. The attendees probably generally believe in a better more peaceful world and promote themselves as such, but the purpose of the festival was to eat acid and listen to 160-180bpm psytrance in a field with your friends. This isn't to take away from the innocent civilians at all, just further clarifying it. A lot of these events will promo as "promoting love and harmony and peace" as general platitudes. Elias_Maluco posted:Sorry it was already discussed before here but thread is a bit too fast, I didint manage to read it all: is there evidence for these rape claims? What I've seen is this, I believe it was linked upthread somewhere. It's an Israeli source and judging by the website, isn't a huge media company, but I'm not familiar with Israeli media. To give you an idea of possible bias. wikipedia posted:Tablet is a conservative online magazine focused on Jewish news and culture. The magazine was founded in 2009 and is supported by the Nextbook foundation. Its editor-in-chief is Alana Newhouse. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account It's not a great source, the "eyewitness account" isn't attributed with a name (for possibly good reasons). But it's still early in the timeline of this tragedy, so we should wait before dismissing rape claims entirely. It's certainly not a huge leap in logic to believe an uncontrolled militia is capable of rape in a addition to mass murder. ummel fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 11:27
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Elias_Maluco posted:Sorry it was already discussed before here but thread is a bit too fast, I didint manage to read it all: is there evidence for these rape claims? There were videos of vehicles full of beaten and bloody girls being taken away. Other infamous video of naked dead girl being desecrated and women shot in the street etc. People assume that the kidnapped women are probably brutalized and raped since they showed such indifference to human life in those videos Collapsing Farts fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 11:28
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The IRA accidentally killing 28 people at Omagh (making it the most deadly attack in the conflict) was such a bad fuckup that it effectively marked the end of their campaign. Hamas very deliberately gunned down 10 times that many young people at the music festival alone. This is such a ridiculous reductive and factually inaccurate summation of the whole political milieu at that time. I was an Irish teenager at the time, I remember Omagh distinctly. I also remember that it wasn't even a Provo attack, and it occurred post -GFA. And though it was the single deadliest Republican attack (note: the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were more individually deadly from the UVF), and there was universal condemnation, it didn't shape the peace process anywhere like earlier incidents e.g. the Docklands, Manchester, and Warrington. Please just don't bother making comparisons if you don't have the context.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:30
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J33uk posted:So we're at the point of attending a music festival as a "carelsss influencer girl" is asking to be raped and murdered. Maybe if their skirts were longer and they weren't out so late this wouldn't have happened! Makes u think  ...---- From a moral perspective it was an unjustifiable atrocity. From a material perspective it was likely counterproductive to the Palestinian cause in Gaza as it greenlights even more direct and overt Israeli action - yes we all know they're already suffering miserably but things can and will get worse. I don't give any stock to 'At last the settlers are fleeing!' speculation. Whether it was counterproductive to Hamas' longer-term cause (which is not necessarily the same as the Palestinian's) remains to be seen. We may be able to comprehend why it happened, but anyone who is so emotionally invested in their posting about Palestinian cause that they start actively justifying it - rather than just reflecting on how the circumstances, environment and suffering in Palestine have contributed to this kind of thing happening and speculating on possible motives, as a couple of people have - is a piece of poo poo and should gently caress off. It was also just the latest in an incredibly long list of unjustifiable atrocities committed in the region, and won't be the last - and the overwhelming majority of these were Israeli atrocities. People who are angry at this as some unique evil need to remind themselves that although it was evil, it is not unique, nor is it reflective of the direction of the wider conflict 99.9% of the time.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:38
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Failed Imagineer posted:This is such a ridiculous reductive and factually inaccurate summation of the whole political milieu at that time. I was an Irish teenager at the time, I remember Omagh distinctly. I also remember that it wasn't even a Provo attack, and it occurred post -GFA. And though it was the single deadliest Republican attack (note: the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were more individually deadly from the UVF), and there was universal condemnation, it didn't shape the peace process anywhere like earlier incidents e.g. the Docklands, Manchester, and Warrington.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:39
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ummel posted:It's very much a media thing. I've noticed it too. It's about a peace festival as Woodstock, etc. The attendees probably generally believe in a better more peaceful world and promote themselves as such, but the purpose of the festival was to eat acid and listen to 160-180bpm psytrance in a field with your friends. This isn't to take away from the innocent civilians at all, just further clarifying it. A lot of these events will promo as "promoting love and harmony and peace" as general platitudes. Thanks, thats pretty awful indeed
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Oct 9, 2023 11:39
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Fanatic posted:
No actually I really cannot. Like what is this.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:47
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According to the article above, the attackers were mostly young kids, of 15, 16 years old Does not justifies anything but I think it does helps to explain the barbarity: those were very angry teenagers. I dont think it was planned to go that way
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Oct 9, 2023 11:52
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Irony Be My Shield posted:That is all good context, but does any of it challenge my core argument that the recent Hamas atrocity was an order of magnitude worse than the most deadly Irish Republican attack, even if we ignore the very clear difference in intentionality between the two? Doesn't the IRA example demonstrate that it's possible to resist an occupation, even violently, without descending to this level of inhuman brutality? I very rarely find myself in the position of downplaying the atrocities committed against my people by the British government, but... The suffering of the Palestinian people is orders of magnitude worse than the suffering of Catholics/Republicans in NI. Even at the height of the Troubles , Catholics mostly had access to running water, could attend schools and receive medical care, and had the ability to flee the country in several directions. They were brutalized and slaughtered, but it was different. The IRA and its various splinter factions largely targeted political and economic targets, but were still routinely vilified as inhuman brutal scum. Gerry Adams' voice couldn't even be legally broadcast on British TV because he was too Evil. You might not see their causes as related , but the Republican movement in NI absolutely stands in solidarity with Palestine. Hell, even my gentrifying suburb of Dublin has a 40ft high Palestinian flag hanging off a building around the corner from me, and my local football team has a jersey in red, green and black where the proceeds go to Palestinian solidarity funds.  E: this is my local parliamentary representative, hmm check out her banner pic 
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Oct 9, 2023 11:53
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I know these are minor details but this thread has a few recurring misconceptions about the geography of the Gaza strip and where the events actually took place, it would be cool and good to just open a map and maybe look at where things are I think maybe, just saying. Well yes, of course it wasn't 10 meters away..that was meant figuratively
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Oct 9, 2023 11:53
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Today's articles report 260+ casualties from the festival and over 1k overall following the attacks As a trance enjoyer and festival goer, this is the worst nightmare imaginable. Of course this is in no way worse or more tragic than any civilian casualty of war.. but definately it is made much more aggravating thinking they were young people just having fun with their friends. Very sad days, I can't even bring myself to look into what's to come in the region...
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Oct 9, 2023 11:56
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Elias_Maluco posted:According to the article above, the attackers were mostly young kids, of 15, 16 years old It's a very difficult argument to make without sounding like you're taking moral agency and responsibility away from the perpetrators, but if true, yes, these would have been children also subjected to every developmental disadvantage and radicalising instinct under the sun for their entire lives. Angry teenagers wouldn't begin to describe it. Failed Imagineer posted:I very rarely find myself in the position of downplaying the atrocities committed against my people by the British government, but... The Republican movement also had access to material support and political solidarity both from their diaspora and other 20th century anti-colonial movements, as well as fighting a declining Imperial power on a comparatively even technological footing. You can argue that the Irish Republican movement always had better politics, ethics, and tactics, but Palestine is still distinguishable in how deeply unequal and desperate the situation has become in scale. Great Enoch fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 11:57
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If anyone's looking for a media rec while they're waiting for new developments check out The Battle of Algiers. Fairly apropos and a fantastic film.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:58
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The IRA's tactics were not even remotely comparable to what Hamas did. The original IRA carried out targeted executions of off-duty police as well as civilian informers and suspected informers during the original Irish war of independence which would eventually lead to the 26 counties being free of British rule. The provisional IRA of the northern campaign in more recent history carried out bombings of civilian infrastructure. True, while not directly comparable in number of casualties, they did carry out a series of car bombs on Bloody Friday which lead to civilian casualties. That attack was a direct response to Bloody Sunday when British paratroopers opened fire on peaceful protesters. Which does compare to the IDF shooting Palestinian protesters earlier this week.
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Oct 9, 2023 12:08
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Great Enoch posted:The Republican movement also had access to material support and political solidarity both from their diaspora and other 20th century anti-colonial movements, as well as fighting a declining Imperial power on a comparatively even technological footing. You can argue that the Irish Republican movement always had better politics, ethics, and tactics, but Palestine is still distinguishable in how deeply unequal and desperate the situation has become in scale. Yeah I totally agree. The material conditions of the Irish Republican struggle were totally different, and this inevitably informed their tactics. I only take issue with OP's assertion that they are not comparable struggles, since both sides are indeed quite happy to draw that comparison themselves.
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Oct 9, 2023 12:15
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https://twitter.com/FirstSquawk/status/1711333650950664196 Yikes. I don't think the IDF are the good guys if they are indiscriminately going to try to kill everyone!
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Oct 9, 2023 12:21
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Chair of Mediterranean human rights organisation says Israel's breaking out the Willy Pete again: https://x.com/ramabdu/status/1711180158604865700?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Oct 9, 2023 12:23
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FlapYoJacks posted:https://twitter.com/FirstSquawk/status/1711333650950664196 As an organization they absolutely aren't. They, and the government that directs them, are the responsible, and guilty, parties for these atrocities.
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Oct 9, 2023 12:33
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The 16 year olds running out to shoot up Israeli towns absolutely knew that the vast majority of them were never coming back
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Oct 9, 2023 12:33
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FlapYoJacks posted:https://twitter.com/FirstSquawk/status/1711333650950664196
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Oct 9, 2023 12:59
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dadrips posted:What about the loyalist/unionist protestant majority government of Northern Ireland, a statelet gerrymandered into existance by the UK after Irish independence, subjugating and oppressing the nationalist catholic minority? As someone who grew up in the aftermath of the troubles, a lot of what goes on in Israel-Palestine feels very familiar, if not 100% identical. In a way the British are also responsible for this because a lot of the dispute dates back to the Balfour Declaration, which was made after the British promised to support the Arabs in their revolt against the Ottoman Empire. Lord Lambeth fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 13:01
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FlapYoJacks posted:https://twitter.com/FirstSquawk/status/1711333650950664196 Yeah, I mean I'm completely disgusted by the rave massacre, which was completely unjustifiable, but cutting off millions of people from the necessities of life because they're "human animals" is worse and I don't think it's even close. This will kill more people (and if it doesn't, it's not for lack of trying) and somehow it's cleaner because it's very impersonal and no one's sharing footage on social media. Our Good Friends in the Middle East...
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Oct 9, 2023 13:18
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Yeah. Hamas just gave the IDF the perfect justification for wiping Gaza off the face of the earth and I have no doubt they will make use of it.
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Oct 9, 2023 13:21
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah. Hamas just gave the IDF the perfect justification for wiping Gaza off the face of the earth and I have no doubt they will make use of it. I mean, call a spade a spade. They're going to attempt genocide.
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Oct 9, 2023 13:24
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PT6A posted:Yeah, I mean I'm completely disgusted by the rave massacre, which was completely unjustifiable, but cutting off millions of people from the necessities of life because they're "human animals" is worse and I don't think it's even close. This will kill more people (and if it doesn't, it's not for lack of trying) and somehow it's cleaner because it's very impersonal and no one's sharing footage on social media. Our Good Friends in the Middle East... Yup. I don't see them holding back in the slightest - not even bothering with the pretense that they aren't going to kill as many as people as they can, whether its via cutting them off from basic goods or just straight up bombardments. And our governments are going to go along with it because its (usually) less direct, less visible, and less shocking than the recent social media vids. Plus the victims are brown and scary so its probably a votewinner.
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Oct 9, 2023 13:25
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Lord Lambeth posted:In a way the British are also responsible for this because a lot of the dispute dates back to the Balfour Declaration, which was made after the British promised to support the Arabs in their revolt against the Ottoman Empire. In a way, the ancient Egyptians are responsible for this too because of the treaty of Kadesh. Also on actual news, what's up with the Rafah crossing? I don't see literally any news about it, except one report that Red Crescent is still using it for medical crossings. I assume it is completely shut besides for Red Crescent, but I don't see much in in the way of reporting - presumably the Egyptian government would like to keep it quiet that they, too, are happy to completely siege Gaza. Cutting off the water supply seems particularly egregious – I know nearly everyone has water tanks in Gaza (supposing their building is still standing), but within a week, I imagine nearly everyone would be running out of potable water. Or maybe Egypt can / does also supply water to Gaza?
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Oct 9, 2023 13:26
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