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Probably goes without saying, but airstrike footage is rampant on Twitter right now and there's absolutely zero content moderation on that platform anymore, so be careful if you don't want to be exposed to it. Edit- They've pulled dashcam footage from one of the cars from the festival.  https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1711256232646897813 https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1711256232646897813.html According this analysis, there were multiple groups or waves of attacks. A brief summary, spoiler for violence.First group was armed fully, massacred the civilians on sight. Went searching for more civilians to execute. Second wave, about 3 hrs later, less armed, not everyone had a weapon. Looted the corpses and cars. Another group came by afterwards and picked through whatever was left. ummel fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 13:27
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Stringent posted:I mean, call a spade a spade. They're going to attempt genocide.
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Oct 9, 2023 13:45
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Bring in UN peace keepers to police the official borders. set a cyprus style dmz up. shoot anyone that doesn't comply.
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Oct 9, 2023 13:46
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Fumble posted:Bring in UN peace keepers to police the official borders. set a cyprus style dmz up. shoot anyone that doesn't comply. While they're at it, they could get rid of all the illegal settlements in the Occupied West Bank. Although I hear many are currently fleeing out of concern for their safety. It is so convenient when the trash takes itself out...
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Oct 9, 2023 13:54
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replace rave/festival with "large concentration of military aged personnel, the majority of which were veterans still serving in the reserves" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 9, 2023 13:59
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PookBear posted:replace rave/festival with "large concentration of military aged personnel, the majority of which were veterans still serving in the reserves" Let's not! I can condemn Israel unequivocally for what they've done and what they're doing, without twisting myself in knots to attempt to justify that particular massacre on any level. It was hosed up, it shouldn't have happened. War is full of those sorts of things, unfortunately.
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Oct 9, 2023 14:04
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PookBear posted:replace rave/festival with "large concentration of military aged personnel, the majority of which were veterans still serving in the reserves" Lmao literally Obama wedding droning level justifications, amazing
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Oct 9, 2023 14:05
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Saladman posted:In a way, the ancient Egyptians are responsible for this too because of the treaty of Kadesh. I know this is being glib but this was definitely cited by my jewish family as a point of contention so, I wouldn't dismiss it. There's a crapload of other stuff that is causing the conflict to be intractable, of course.
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Oct 9, 2023 14:06
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https://twitter.com/shayan86/status/1711161359587500211?s=46&t=G1x8XWIwrNxUQoXItlkh2w Plenty of lies flying around.
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Oct 9, 2023 14:17
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Lmao literally Obama wedding droning level justifications, amazing I think that was the point, illustrating just how hard this sort of behaviour by certain actors has been normalised in the Middle East (and the brutalising effect it's had)?
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Oct 9, 2023 14:23
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ummel posted:Probably goes without saying, but airstrike footage is rampant on Twitter right now and there's absolutely zero content moderation on that platform anymore, so be careful if you don't want to be exposed to it. The fact that people can defend this or hand wave it away as justified is pretty horrific in itself
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Oct 9, 2023 14:24
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ummel posted:Probably goes without saying, but airstrike footage is rampant on Twitter right now and there's absolutely zero content moderation on that platform anymore, so be careful if you don't want to be exposed to it. drat what even happened there. There's an entire highway of busted up cars  It must have been complete mayhem Elias_Maluco posted:According to the article above, the attackers were mostly young kids, of 15, 16 years old They don't look 16 to me and judging by the new footage they knew what they were doing:  Collapsing Farts fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 14:33
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Stringent posted:I mean, call a spade a spade. They're going to attempt genocide. "Going to" implies it wasn't already in progress. It takes a lot longer than 2 days to get to a point where you can just press a button and pull a lever and suddenly millions lack water and power
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Oct 9, 2023 14:34
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Just Chamber posted:The fact that people can defend this or hand wave it away as justified is pretty horrific in itself The fact that people can ignore terrorist attacks resulting in thousands of dead civilians as long as they are Palestinian is the horrifying part, not that everyone is upset when it also happens to Israelis and westerners. You can also easily find videos of Israelis mutilating dead naked Palestinians too, both need to be stopped.
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Oct 9, 2023 14:34
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Lmao literally Obama wedding droning level justifications, amazing Congrats on getting the point I was making
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Oct 9, 2023 14:40
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I don't think the idea that this was somehow unintended tracks with Hamas proudly parading the stripped corpses of their victims around on social media.
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Oct 9, 2023 14:42
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Party In My Diapee posted:The fact that people can ignore terrorist attacks resulting in thousands of dead civilians as long as they are Palestinian is the horrifying part, like this one from Febuary this year? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/27/israeli-settler-violence-in-west-bank-escalates-huwara or this one from june? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/21/israeli-settlers-attack-palestinian-villages-following-deadly-hamas-strike or this one from august? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-66620250 https://www.nrc.no/news/2023/august/west-bank-entire-palestinian-communities-disappeared-due-to-israeli-settler-violence/
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Oct 9, 2023 14:44
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Party In My Diapee posted:The fact that people can ignore terrorist attacks resulting in thousands of dead civilians as long as they are Palestinian is the horrifying part, not that everyone is upset when it also happens to Israelis and westerners. You can also easily find videos of Israelis mutilating dead naked Palestinians too, both need to be stopped. No no they just send in the police to strip search them in front of their family in the middle of the night. Or they do it to to kids in prison so people can ignore it. There's no defending what happened at the rave, but holding everyone responsible accountable means also holding accountable the government that created a human pressure cooker that has consistently for decades conveyed that human life, at least when it's Palestinian, does not matter.
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Oct 9, 2023 14:45
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emSparkly posted:How effective is it really? I firmly believe we're past the point where armed revolt is a viable approach anywhere for any reason. The only way anyone gets a better life at this point is if the overlords feel like giving a random handout. You can't fight oppression with violence because the oppressors have a monopoly on violence. Kill as many Israelis as you want, they're just gonna press a button and have some UAV firebomb every last square inch of Gaza til nothing but dust remains and then it's over. The same holds true for any theoretical revolutionary force opposing rule by industrialized nation (unless they have gear and funding from a foreign power). You can't fight that poo poo with AKs and IEDs. If Hamas posed even the slightest threat to Israeli occupation, they'd have already wiped the entire Palestinian population from the earth. Is it wrong to engage in armed resistance to oppression if victory is seemingly impossible? I have a hard time agreeing to that as an overall principle. Even if there's no hope of winning against oppression, I can't really blame people for choosing to take up arms against said oppression, even if they know they'll likely die in the process. For example, US slave revolts. Although there was theoretical potential for a massive slave uprising, the white slaveholders had established infrastructure for spreading the word of uprisings and organizing formal militias to oppose them, ensuring that such revolts were always outnumbered and outgunned before they could spread beyond a few plantations (and often before they even started). I can't say that it was wrong for American slaves to attempt armed resistance, despite the fact that such resistance was largely futile in the US and invariably invited massive brutal reprisals against the entire black population. Mid-Life Crisis posted:Is it fair to think with Saudi coming to the table there was room for relatively peaceful changes to the situation? For the longest time local Arab nations couldn’t care less about the Palestinians, if they did they’d do so much more for the refugees they took in. It was just a way to justify hating the Jews, which helped zealots keep power. Now there’s no chance because the warlords inside Hamas had no future if outside nations seriously got involved. I struggle to see this any more than a power struggle for the evil inside Palestine than a justified reaction to oppression. And their wonton cruelty is a reflection of that. Not really, no. Israel hasn't been a particularly faithful negotiator when it comes to Palestine. Peace negotiations, whether bilateral or multilateral, typically seem to end up in Israel making extremely limited immediate concessions with a promise of much larger concessions later, and then over the next couple of years Israel finds excuses to roll back the immediate concessions and indefinitely postpone the long-term promises. In the end, the peaceful agreement exists in name only, with its actual implementation being largely abandoned - but the other countries involved are satisfied with being able to say that they got Israel to "agree" to concessions, and aren't really inclined to push Israel over the failure to actually make those concessions. The Saudi government was in this to normalize relations with Israel, not to gain concessions for Palestinians. For domestic political reasons, they had to pay some lip service to the Palestinians while dealing with Israel, but I wouldn't expect much pressure from them to hold to those parts of the deal afterward. In addition to that, the Saudis have a very poor relationship with Hamas (for complicated regional politics reasons) and the US absolutely refuses to acknowledge Hamas as a potential participant in negotiations, so it's fairly likely that Hamas would have ended up being thrown under the bus in any deal (if not in the text of the deal, then in practice).
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Oct 9, 2023 14:48
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I mean, it's fairly clear the concert was a target. The alternative is that they accidentally coordinated a huge amount of soldiers using paragliders to fly 5km from the border and accidentally landed exactly at the huge gathering of people and accidentally killed hundreds of them while kidnapping many more (some of which ended up dead on camera later...) It wasn't a snafu by scared angry teenage rebels, it was a coordinated terrorist attack by veteran militants, as the pictures show. Zzulu fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 14:48
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Fumble posted:Bring in UN peace keepers to police the official borders. set a cyprus style dmz up. shoot anyone that doesn't comply. Genuinely probably the only way to defuse this, because as it stands both sides have benefited from antagonizing the other (and ignoring even just the antagonistic state behavior from either side is burying your head in the sand). Hamas is going to have a very long fuse in any actual COIN attempt because it will instantly pivot to a boko-haram style anti-western Islamic ideology. I genuinely hope the UN is willing to stump up to 40 years of defusing this one, you are going to need an entire generation to grow up on both sides of the border without fear their going to become victims or have food and water cut off. I don't think anyone has the stomach for the Stalingrad by way of Fallujah that will be necessary to disrupt Hamas's open operations, no military force on earth is delusional enough to stick their dick in that meat grinder.
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Oct 9, 2023 14:51
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Focusing on a single atrocity absent the larger context is a sign someone is either naive/misinformed or pushing an agenda. What if the only talking point you ever heard about WW2 was the bombing of German civilians, or even a specific incident such as the Baba Yar killings? What if those were better known and more discussed than the Holocaust? What would you imagine the agenda to be then?
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Oct 9, 2023 14:53
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Just Chamber posted:The fact that people can defend this or hand wave it away as justified is pretty horrific in itself I'm going to ask again that you and other posters not engage in shadowboxing against what "some people" think. Quote the poster, link the article/tweet/whatever, or save it for your dinner table discussion. Baronash fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 14:55
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Mantis42 posted:Focusing on a single atrocity absent the larger context is a sign someone is either naive/misinformed or pushing an agenda. What if the only talking point you ever heard about WW2 was the bombing of German civilians, or even a specific incident such as the Baba Yar killings? What if those were better known and more discussed than the Holocaust? What would you imagine the agenda to be then? I basically agree, but keep in mind that the attacks have only just happened, and were accompanied by graphic shocking images that have dominated the news cycles. Its therefore natural that they're the fresh thing that everyone is posting about. If its still the case in a week's time, especially as Israel ramps up the slaughter, then its a lot more reasonable to start asking questions about motives.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:00
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Tigey posted:I basically agree, but keep in mind that the attacks have only just happened, and were accompanied by graphic shocking images that have dominated the news cycles. Its therefore natural that they're the fresh thing that everyone is posting about. I agree but there's another dimension that isn't being discussed. Israel overwhelming Gaza with technological and tactical advantage while doing double/triple-digit civilian casualty war crimes in is "dog bites man." It happens so often that there's basically nothing new to say with each new time it happens. There's only the same emotions and helplessness as last time. Hamas managing to do it to Israel is "man bites dog." It's an unprecedented moment in Israeli-Palestinian history. Of course people are more interested in talking about it It reminds me of when that Titanic tour submarine was lost, and many people pretended not to understand why it was getting more attention than much higher numbers of refugees drowning in the Mediterranean. What people are interested to discuss online isn't a good proxy for what they find morally outrageous.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:07
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I think the sheer brutality, the mass and conscious targeting of civilians and the complete lack of any possible argument to justify the attack also make it stand out compared to airstrikes and rocket attacks.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:09
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Hamas managing to do it to Israel is "man bites dog." It's an unprecedented moment in Israeli-Palestinian history. Of course people are more interested in talking about it. People are not discussing this incident in the context of a new or novel development in the conflict and its implication. The media, posters, etc. are aghast at the horror of this event with an emotion and interest that far outstrips any level of interest shown to the butchering of Palestinians.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:10
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think the sheer brutality, the mass and conscious targeting of civilians and the complete lack of any possible argument to justify the attack also make it stand out compared to airstrikes and rocket attacks. As far as figures from actual news sources go it seems the brunt of Hamas's attack was against military units. They've captured several highly ranked members of the IDF.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:15
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The EU is freezing all financial aid to Palestine. It's $700 million per year and I assume a huge chunk of their GDP https://news.yahoo.com/eu-freezes-aid-payments-palestinians-134955251.html
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Oct 9, 2023 15:15
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Stringent posted:As far as figures from actual news sources go it seems the brunt of Hamas's attack was against military units. They've captured several highly ranked members of the IDF. Which news sources would those be? I've not seen a breakdown of the numbers. Edit: Managed to find a Politico article saying at least 250 dead at the festival site. https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-war-hamas-music-festival-attack-supernova-gaza-palestine/ J33uk fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 15:19
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Stringent posted:As far as figures from actual news sources go it seems the brunt of Hamas's attack was against military units. They've captured several highly ranked members of the IDF.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:21
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Stringent posted:As far as figures from actual news sources go it seems the brunt of Hamas's attack was against military units. They've captured several highly ranked members of the IDF. Where are you getting this? There are about 800 confirmed deaths right now. 260 were at the music festival and were all civilians. Another 320 were civilians around the Gaza border and Northern Israel. That leaves about 220 as "civilians and military personnel" during the initial attack on Saturday. Even if you are very generous and give 75% of that figure as soldiers, then that is still a little over 80% of the causalities being civilians.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:24
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If they were able to achieve military objectives it only highlights how unnecessary their attack on the rave was. It was a crime against humanity that Hamas perpetrated entirely by choice. Terrorising civilians can also be a military objective when civilians make up a significant part of your enemy's war effort. We just don't know yet how effective it was - if it materially weakens the West Bank settlement programme, for instance, then that's a big win. One of the main reasons we have a system of international law in the first place is that 'unethical' isn't the same as 'useless', and there can be strong tactical and strategic incentives to murder civilians if murdering civilians is an 'accepted' part of the war.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:26
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It reminds me of when that Titanic tour submarine was lost, and many people pretended not to understand why it was getting more attention than much higher numbers of refugees drowning in the Mediterranean. What people are interested to discuss online isn't a good proxy for what they find morally outrageous. Yeah maybe you're not seeing all the unilateral statements by politicians and celebs "the US/UK/whatever stands with Israel" followed by fist and Israeli flag emojis. They didn't do this when Palestinian kids are killed by the dozens. Not a good analogy IMO
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Oct 9, 2023 15:28
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Was that massacre Hamas or one of the allied militias taking part? That wouldn't exonerate Hamas, I'm just curious
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Oct 9, 2023 15:28
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Darth Walrus posted:Terrorising civilians can also be a military objective when civilians make up a significant part of your enemy's war effort. We just don't know yet how effective it was - if it materially weakens the West Bank settlement programme, for instance, then that's a big win. What do you think is the demographic overlap between young people and foreigners at a secular music event and people living in cities that are 105 km away from the closest settlements with religious Israeli settlers in the West Bank? I'm gonna take a wild guess and say, "not high." The idea that those were attempts to slow the West Bank settlement program or that Hamas cares more about the West Bank than they do Gaza is a wild idea.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:35
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If they were able to achieve military objectives it only highlights how unnecessary their attack on the rave was. It was a crime against humanity that Hamas perpetrated entirely by choice. If your goal is to achieve a maximum bodycount in the time you can operate freely a concert is the ideal target. It's as likely to be a random event as the Mumbai attackers just happening to kill some Jews by pure chance.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:38
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RandomPauI posted:Was that massacre Hamas or one of the allied militias taking part? In the photos posted itt from the rave some of the attackers are wearing headbands showing the logo of the al-Qassam brigades, the official military wing of Hamas.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:41
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Is there even any international appetite for peacekeeping? Is the best we can hope for now for Israel to step on a rake on its way to ethnic cleansing and back out before it gets even worse?
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Oct 9, 2023 15:42
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:What do you think is the demographic overlap between young people and foreigners at a secular music event and people living in cities that are 105 km away from the closest settlements with religious Israeli settlers in the West Bank? In theory any of the ravers, including women, could have been IDF reservists who would now be called to service. Extending that theory anyone living in Gaza could be a secret Hamas super soldier, so I hope that no one seriously suggests it.
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