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GABA ghoul posted:The EU is freezing all financial aid to Palestine. It's $700 million per year and I assume a huge chunk of their GDP bit over 3%, which is pretty big when we're talking about entire economies
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Oct 9, 2023 15:46
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Zzulu posted:I mean, it's fairly clear the concert was a target. I mean the rave was held just on the border of Gaza, and it wasn't pre-announced where it would be held. It's very likely they had co-ordinated a huge amount of soldiers using paragliders to escape over the border and by sheer chance came across the rave as an opportunity target. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 15:49
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Stringent posted:As far as figures from actual news sources go it seems the brunt of Hamas's attack was against military units. They've captured several highly ranked members of the IDF. The figures I've seen seem to indicate the opposite. They managed to basically overwhelm and destroy one military base (captured on video) and the rest of the casualties are all civilians
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Oct 9, 2023 16:02
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The idea that you can brutalize a purely civilian gathering as long as you also separately attacked at least one military installation is loving deranged anyway.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:04
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This attack is directly a product of every less extreme option being systematically closed to the Palestinians. They can't hope to negotiate; Israel has historically negotiated with them in bath faith when it deigns to do so at all. They can't hope for integration; even the Israeli left is so anti-Arab that they would rather fail to form a government than negotiate with the Arab List. They can't hope for foreign intervention, it's either solidly on Israel's side or willing to abandon Palestine for better relations with the former. They can't hope to win a military confrontation; they have what arms can be smuggled in, Israel is outfitted by the USA. They can't even hope to make a functional homeland for themselves; Israel functionally controls their borders and infrastructure, and progressively steals what land it wants anyway. There are no options available to them except terrorist attacks or submitting to ever worsening oppression. Saying that "Hamas shouldn't be doing this" implies that other options actually exist. They don't. Palestine and Israel do not operate on level ethical ground. Israel is an actual functional nation state, Palestine is a gulag that Israel and the international community sometimes finds convenient to pretend is one. The power dynamic and relative options means that their acts cannot carry the same ethical weight.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:19
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fool of sound posted:even the Israeli left is so anti-Arab that they would rather fail to form a government than negotiate with the Arab List. The Arab list has historically refused to participate in any coalition government in protest. They lifted this policy in 2021 and were literally part of the coalition that led the last government in Israel until last year.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:23
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fool of sound posted:This attack is directly a product of every less extreme option being systematically closed to the Palestinians. They can't hope to negotiate; Israel has historically negotiated with them in bath faith when it deigns to do so at all. They can't hope for integration; even the Israeli left is so anti-Arab that they would rather fail to form a government than negotiate with the Arab List. They can't hope for foreign intervention, it's either solidly on Israel's side or willing to abandon Palestine for better relations with the former. They can't hope to win a military confrontation; they have what arms can be smuggled in, Israel is outfitted by the USA. They can't even hope to make a functional homeland for themselves; Israel functionally controls their borders and infrastructure, and progressively steals what land it wants anyway. There are no options available to them except terrorist attacks or submitting to ever worsening oppression. Saying that "Hamas shouldn't be doing this" implies that other options actually exist. They don't. How are terrorist attacks on civilians in Israel more of a viable option? It's also doomed to have any positive outcome for Palestinians, probably to the same degree (or worse) when compared to everything else you listed.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:28
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fool of sound posted:This attack is directly a product of every less extreme option being systematically closed to the Palestinians. They can't hope to negotiate; Israel has historically negotiated with them in bath faith when it deigns to do so at all. They can't hope for integration; even the Israeli left is so anti-Arab that they would rather fail to form a government than negotiate with the Arab List. They can't hope for foreign intervention, it's either solidly on Israel's side or willing to abandon Palestine for better relations with the former. They can't hope to win a military confrontation; they have what arms can be smuggled in, Israel is outfitted by the USA. They can't even hope to make a functional homeland for themselves; Israel functionally controls their borders and infrastructure, and progressively steals what land it wants anyway. There are no options available to them except terrorist attacks or submitting to ever worsening oppression. Saying that "Hamas shouldn't be doing this" implies that other options actually exist. They don't. If a mass shooter is shown to have had a life of torture abuse and neglect, we don't say they have a lesser moral or ethical obligation to not commit massacres. It just makes it maybe that little bit more understandable. The same applies to (quasi)-state actors. This line of reasoning is further undermined by the fact that they managed to steal a bunch of armored vehicles and overwhelm at least one outpost. Maybe if they had more of their troops doing that instead of committing atrocities they would have had even more materiel for a next phase e: also this attack will very likely end up having been a terrible tactical and strategic move when the dust settles so all of the justifications will only look worse as time passes Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 16:29
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https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1711387107602653621 The most infuriating part is that the rave is the headline, not the systematic genocide and constant war crimes/crimes against humanity/outright genocide lust from Israel in response.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:33
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FlapYoJacks posted:The most infuriating part is that the rave is the headline, not the systematic genocide and constant war crimes/crimes against humanity/outright genocide lust from Israel in response. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 9, 2023 16:34
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yes, it was a mistake for Hamas to commit an act of such sickening evil that it would inevitably dominate the news over any Israeli response. Hamas could literally only kill military personnel and the response would be the same. The crime was not the act itself, the crime was resisting apartheid.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:37
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FlapYoJacks posted:https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1711387107602653621 "Human animals" is such an absurdly disgusting phrase even before you apply it to innocent people.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:39
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yes, it was a mistake for Hamas to commit an act of such sickening evil that it would inevitably dominate the news over any Israeli response. The news response has nothing to do with the nature of Hamas' attack and everything to do with the world not viewing Palestinian's as human. There is no act that Hamas could commit that wouldn't either be completely ignored or would overshadow the IDF response.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:39
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Mean Baby posted:Hamas could literally only kill military personnel and the response would be the same. No, I’m pretty sure the crime was killing 200 civilians in cold blood. The response being the same from Israel doesn’t justify doing the more atrocious act.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:39
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Seph posted:No, I’m pretty sure the crime was killing 200 civilians in cold blood. The response being the same from Israel doesn’t justify doing the more atrocious act. The response from Israel has actually been significantly more extreme and indiscriminate.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:40
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Where are you getting this? I mean, it's old news, but: https://www.businessinsider.com/israels-best-commanders-many-officers-killed-hamas-war-gaza-idf-2023-10?op=1 And apparently there were one or two general officers taken as hostages, I couldn't find a decent source for that. Mostly looks like they whipped the IDF pretty quickly and moved on to targets of opportunity. Sucks, but that's war I guess?
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Oct 9, 2023 16:40
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Hamas wants Israel to reoccupy Gaza right? That's the only way that the scale of this attack makes any sense. If the attack was too small, then they just get bombed or a temporary incursion.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:43
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The Arab list has historically refused to participate in any coalition government in protest. They lifted this policy in 2021 and were literally part of the coalition that led the last government in Israel until last year. Ok now the next step in this train of thought is "why they are protesting" and "why they were willing to join a short term, unstable coalition largely based around a failed attempt to get rid of Bibi". Kagrenak posted:If a mass shooter is shown to have had a life of torture abuse and neglect, we don't say they have a lesser moral or ethical obligation to not commit massacres. It just makes it maybe that little bit more understandable. The same applies to (quasi)-state actors. What next phase? The one where Israel denies all their civilians access to basic utilities and then bombs any building that might contain a male between the ages of 15 and 60 while the world continues to ignore those acts by a state actor with an actual ability to resolve the conflict? This isn't comparable to a mass shooter. It's comparable to a slave revolt or tribal raids during the US's western expansion.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:43
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Mischievous Mink posted:The response from Israel has actually been significantly more extreme and indiscriminate. It hasn't yet. More Israeli civilians have been killed in the last week than civilians in Gaza and roughly 4/5ths of the casualties were indiscriminate fire on civilians. It most certainly will end up with higher proportion of deaths on the Palestinian side soon now that Israel is starting a bombing campaign, though. fool of sound posted:Ok now the next step in this train of thought is "why they are protesting" and "why they were willing to join a short term, unstable coalition largely based around a failed attempt to get rid of Bibi". It just seems a little silly to make a sweeping declaration that the Israeli left would never form a coalition with the Arab list, when the Arab list was literally part of the ruling coalition last year. It's not ancient history or anything. That also really mischaracterizes the Israeli left parties like Hadash. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 16:44
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It is day three of the conflict. The IDF has still not removed the first batch of Hamas fighters. The IDF has confirmed that new units of Hamas fighters are breaching the walls. The EU has cut off funding from Gaza and the West Bank that could very well ignite the latter towards rebellion. The IDF is shelling Lebanon and there are reports of gunfire. This could very well become a two-front war with Hezbollah. The Arab League has announced that if Israel does not change this will not be the last war. Saud-Israel agreement is pretty much frozen because not even the sauds could avoid getting devoured by their people if they push through at this time. Israel is accusing Iran of involvement. Various western nations and unaffiliated corporations are submitting their loyalty oaths on Twitter or via building light shows. Israel has cut off food/water/electricity to Gaza. Israel still has greater casualties than Gaza, Israel is still slow-announcing batches of 20 IDF soldiers at a time who are dying in waves to what might be the poorest arab army in the world. Hamas is still somehow abducting IDF soldiers. Rocket attacks are still thoroughly overwhelming the Iron Dome. We are on day 3 of the D&D candlelight vigil over the rave, which has completely consumed talking about anything else. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 16:46
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Zzulu posted:I mean, it's fairly clear the concert was a target. Where do you think Hamas militants come from? Do you think they are imported from elsewhere or that they materialize out of thin air? What do you suspect the median age of the front line soldiers are given that the median age in the Gaza Strip is 18? Kalit posted:How are terrorist attacks on civilians in Israel more of a viable option? It's also doomed to have any positive outcome for Palestinians, probably to the same degree (or worse) when compared to everything else you listed. Well the IDF has a habit of sniping protestors so clearly that's not an option. poo poo IDF soldiers filmed themselves doing it in 2018 and as far as I can tell the most anyone got was one month in jail. They pretty nakedly murdered a journalist and nothing has come of it - and to be frank nothing will. This atrocity is obviously not gonna help anyone, but nothing else has or even shows signs of working.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:47
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It hasn't yet. More Israeli civilians have been killed in the last week than civilians in Gaza and roughly 4/5ths of the casualties were indiscriminate fire on civilians. I would say cutting off food, power and water to the civilian population already counts.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:47
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FlapYoJacks posted:
The most infuriating part is that the rave is the headline only because some of victims were Europeans.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:47
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Something that frustrates me is that as far as the US media and ruling class are concerned, you are straight up not allowed to have a pro Palestinian opinion. It's thought of as a heresy. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/08/nyc-palestine-rally-democrats-israel-00120533
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Oct 9, 2023 16:50
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It hasn't yet. More Israeli civilians have been killed in the last week than civilians in Gaza and roughly 4/5ths of the casualties were indiscriminate fire on civilians. I honestly just don't believe they have the capability to assess how many people have been killed yet, when they have entire apartment towers being blown to rubble and no electricity or running water, and anywhere could be the next target. The official number isn't very meaningful right now in my opinion.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:51
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Neurolimal posted:We are on day 3 of the D&D candlelight vigil over the rave, which has completely consumed talking about anything else.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:51
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A minor point, but the Joint List has never been in a coalition. The most they've ever committed to is supporting an anti-Bibi coalition from the outside and usually they don't do that. There was an Arab party, Ra'am (called the United Arab List in English, which may be the cause of the confusion), in the previous government, but it is unrelated to the Joint List and has a very different agenda - the Joint List is secular, anti-Zionist and leftist/communist, Ra'am is Islamist and willing to work with whoever will work with them. Until recently the Joint List had much more support than Ra'am but thanks to infighting and Balad (the hardline nationalist wing) splitting off and then not making it into the Knesset they're about equal now.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:52
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That rave is like the single biggest mass-casualty event in the history of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. In terms of casualties per capita it's a 9/11 * 3 all by itself. It's a significant event. The headlines were never going to be "Israel-Palestine Conflict Still On Going, Israel still very bad, also 260 civilians killed in a single attack". Like, c'mon, goons. What I kind of fear though is that it's going to hold on to this record for a very short time.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:54
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https://twitter.com/OliverVarhelyi/status/1711362068056613294
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Oct 9, 2023 16:54
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Neurolimal posted:It is day three of the conflict. The IDF has still not removed the first batch of Hamas fighters. The IDF has confirmed that new units of Hamas fighters are breaching the walls. The EU has cut off funding from Gaza and the West Bank that could very well ignite the latter towards rebellion. The IDF is shelling Lebanon and there are reports of gunfire. This could very well become a two-front war with Hezbollah. The Arab League has announced that if Israel does not change this will not be the last war. Saud-Israel agreement is pretty much frozen because not even the sauds could avoid getting devoured by their people if they push through at this time. Israel is accusing Iran of involvement. Various western nations and unaffiliated corporations are submitting their loyalty oaths on Twitter or via building light shows. Israel has cut off food/water/electricity to Gaza. Israel still has greater casualties than Gaza, Israel is still slow-announcing batches of 20 IDF soldiers at a time who are dying in waves to what might be the poorest arab army in the world. Hamas is still somehow abducting IDF soldiers. Hezbollah already said they have nothing to do with it and Iran/Hamas have already admitted to working together to supply and plan the attack for the last two years. So it is unlikely there is going to be a new front opening up with Hezbollah. Mischievous Mink posted:I honestly just don't believe they have the capability to assess how many people have been killed yet, when they have entire apartment towers being blown to rubble and no electricity or running water, and anywhere could be the next target. The official number isn't very meaningful right now in my opinion. Those are the confirmed death figures as of today. It's also not 0 water and electricity. It's none from Israel (which is about 45% of the electricity in Gaza) and sadly there has been a lack of access to running water in Gaza for a long time. So it seems very unlikely that thousands of people have died from the electricity and water situation in the last 24 hours. Not for lack of trying, though. The airstrikes are most definitely going to be the thing that raises the casualties in Gaza quickly.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:55
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Iran/Hamas have already admitted to working together to supply and plan the attack for the last two years. I saw some tweets about that which I thought were pretty sketchy. You have a good source for that?
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Oct 9, 2023 16:57
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emanresu tnuocca posted:That rave is like the single biggest mass-casualty event in the history of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. In terms of casualties per capita it's a 9/11 * 3 all by itself. It's a significant event. The headlines were never going to be "Israel-Palestine Conflict Still On Going, Israel still very bad, also 260 civilians killed in a single attack". Like, c'mon, goons. It’s not even close to the single most mass casualty event in this conflict. There are already more dead Palestinian children in this conflict alone.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:58
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fool of sound posted:Ok now the next step in this train of thought is "why they are protesting" and "why they were willing to join a short term, unstable coalition largely based around a failed attempt to get rid of Bibi". The one that's ongoing where there are reports of more fighters breaching the walls and continuing fighting? The one where they captured IDF officers and could have had additional more useful hostages instead of killing and capturing a bunch of idiot ravers? Yeah Israel will respond with horrendous war crimes of their own that makes this one look tame. But at this point that feels as inevitable and as examined as the sun rising in the east so of course people are talking about the new event. emanresu tnuocca posted:That rave is like the single biggest mass-casualty event in the history of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. In terms of casualties per capita it's a 9/11 * 3 all by itself. It's a significant event. The headlines were never going to be "Israel-Palestine Conflict Still On Going, Israel still very bad, also 260 civilians killed in a single attack". Like, c'mon, goons. Is this even true for the Israeli side of the conflict? Probably for some decades it is but it pales in comparison to multiple other atrocities Israel has committed in the last couple decades. Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 16:59
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Stringent posted:I saw some tweets about that which I thought were pretty sketchy. You have a good source for that? I was going to say the only source is WSJ but I haven't seen any other source confirm that (CNN, NYTimes, The Boston Globe) and given WSJ's connections to the Republican party, I wouldn't be surprised if they ran with it to try to score some PR victories for the Republican party.
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Oct 9, 2023 17:00
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Nebalebadingdong posted:Hamas wants Israel to reoccupy Gaza right? That's the only way that the scale of this attack makes any sense. If the attack was too small, then they just get bombed or a temporary incursion. Part of the plan is to hide their hostages, possibly use them as human shields and ultimately demand release of Palestinians from Israeli prisons in exchange. And while the official policy is to not negotiate with terrorists, Israel can't just ignore them. Full occupation of Gaza also seems like a bad idea in every sense, but Netanyahu will have to present some kind of plan to his people, just a couple of weeks raid and bombing is not going to suffice.
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Oct 9, 2023 17:02
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Mooseontheloose posted:I was going to say the only source is WSJ but I haven't seen any other source confirm that (CNN, NYTimes, The Boston Globe) and given WSJ's connections to the Republican party, I wouldn't be surprised if they ran with it to try to score some PR victories for the Republican party. they no doubt have some very removed involvement (in some long-term sense of "hamas isn't manufacturing machine guns themselves") but there is somewhere between little and no evidence that they were involved in this operation at this point https://twitter.com/Max_Fisher/status/1711369137941881293
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Oct 9, 2023 17:02
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Neurolimal posted:It is day three of the conflict. The IDF has still not removed the first batch of Hamas fighters. The IDF has confirmed that new units of Hamas fighters are breaching the walls. The EU has cut off funding from Gaza and the West Bank that could very well ignite the latter towards rebellion. The IDF is shelling Lebanon and there are reports of gunfire. This could very well become a two-front war with Hezbollah. The Arab League has announced that if Israel does not change this will not be the last war. Saud-Israel agreement is pretty much frozen because not even the sauds could avoid getting devoured by their people if they push through at this time. Israel is accusing Iran of involvement. Various western nations and unaffiliated corporations are submitting their loyalty oaths on Twitter or via building light shows. Israel has cut off food/water/electricity to Gaza. Israel still has greater casualties than Gaza, Israel is still slow-announcing batches of 20 IDF soldiers at a time who are dying in waves to what might be the poorest arab army in the world. Hamas is still somehow abducting IDF soldiers. Rocket attacks are still thoroughly overwhelming the Iron Dome. Provide citations for any of this.
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Oct 9, 2023 17:03
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Szarrukin posted:The most infuriating part is that the rave is the headline only because some of victims were Europeans. Remembering the one American woman who got bulldozed by the IDF in 2003 and the IDF self-investigated it and found themselves not guilty. Kagrenak posted:The one that's ongoing where there are reports of more fighters breaching the walls and continuing fighting? The one where they captured IDF officers and could have had additional more useful hostages instead of killing and capturing a bunch of idiot ravers? So the bloody, disproportionate reprisal and genocide by Israel is just an inevitable fact. Despite Israel having all the power to end this, immediately, if they so wished.
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Oct 9, 2023 17:04
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Stringent posted:I saw some tweets about that which I thought were pretty sketchy. You have a good source for that? Hamas Spokesperson said so this morning. A Hezbollah spokesperson also said that Hezbollah had nothing to do with it and said it was Hamas and Iran. quote:Hamas Says Attacks on Israel Were Backed by Iran The AP and WSJ also both have independent reporting on it. The WSJ claims that Iran "gave the green light" and was deeply involved in planning the specifics. The AP report just says they found that Iran funded and was aware of the attack, but they can't confirm how involved they were in the specific details of planning it. https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/is...PwSyBrYpQVUPyM9 https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1711120355585089821 Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 17:05
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emanresu tnuocca posted:That rave is like the single biggest mass-casualty event in the history of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. In terms of casualties per capita it's a 9/11 * 3 all by itself. It's a significant event. The headlines were never going to be "Israel-Palestine Conflict Still On Going, Israel still very bad, also 260 civilians killed in a single attack". Like, c'mon, goons. casualties per capita lol is that a real thing or are we just stretching to make this a bigger event in the numbers game Tatsuta Age fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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